@@kuoromikuroko5944 Vivienne is someone I would stab to death even on a good playtrough I am not recriuting her whatsoever she is annoying Morrigan was sarcastic but this bitch ehre nah not recriuting her have not played the game yet but she is not coming to my party period.
She takes you on a spa day regardless of her opinion of you (she'll even passive aggressively talking about how "surprising" it is that she'd do something nice for you if you end the game with low enough approval).
Damn... I allied with the mages, supported disbanding the Circles, welcomed the Wardens, accepted Cole, got Celene and Briala back together, and I *STILL* didn't get this... wtf did you even do to her?!
I did many of those things but I also recovered her books, made several judgments she agreed with. I was polite to her in conversation and didn't dismiss her ideas on decorating the castle or on how I should dress to impress
Oddly enough, even though she won't tell you exactly what she wants the heart for there's a readable object nearby that pretty much tells you what she's trying to do. I figured since I'm running an inquisition with The Dread Wolf, a war criminal posing as a dead Grey Warden, and the Spirit of Compassion posing as a dead mage I could afford to be tolerant of yet another member with secrets
@@lf717 Ironically, that's probably one reason the mission is there. Go against instinct and trust Vivienne and you not only get huge approval and conversation with her that sheds light on some of her personal politics but that mission's conclusion counts towards the secret score you need to get your chosen Divine installed.
Vivienne's goal is to keep the status quo because she thrives in it. She's also very controlling, which is why she supports the Templar option. Unlike a lot of the other characters, she looks out exclusively for herself and in ways to raise her influence and power, compared to say Iron Bull whos doing it for money and a sense of being something greater or even Solas who (spoilers) needed to fix his fuck ups by giving Corypheus the orb. Even eccentric Sera joins the Inquisiyion because she gets to "shoot baddies and do good, yeah?"
I think you misunderstood her character she only supports the templar because she fears unchecked magic. She fears what happen to mages without the protection of the templar from common people. She fears what will happen when mages get corrupted. Sera a good example of the common peoples opinion of magic they fear magic . Vivienne knows they do. Mages are walking nukes i mean solas literally destroyed elven world. I think shes right to want precautions.
She reeks of internalized classism. She loves the status quo basically because "it worked fine til now" and condones all kinds of abuse toward her fellow mages because she already climbed up the ladder and doesn't have to deal with it. She's not a bad person, just incredibly privileged, she had the fortune to not share the same awful conditions of other mages and probably ignores the truth of what happens underneath her. So much for global perspective. Yeah I absolutely detest her but good character
@@solid9981 Glad to see there's at least one person out there who understands Vivienne's character. Imagine playing through the whole game and thinking she doesn't care about mages? Like, did everyone else here just miss or ignore all the times she expresses sadness or frustration at the rebel mages getting themselves and other mages killed? Lmao. I disagree with her, but you can't argue that she doesn't care.
@@The_77thman Well then my comment wasn't directed at you. I was talking to all the people who somehow read Vivienne as genuinely selfish and uncaring. I never said anyone had to like her.
I wouldnt order her to leave but I would definitely be way more aggressive and put her in her place AND if she was more smug about the whole thing, I would just execute her and deal with the consequences.
It makes sense. Vivienne wouldn’t let anyone just maker her leave. If you want the elected Grand Enchanter gone for petty personal reasons, you’re not worthy of your title as Inquisitor.
I like Vivienne. Like Sera, she is a character that either grows on you or you end up barely tolerating. For my inquisitor, she is the pragmatic political voice in your head. She doesn't care about ethics or emotions, she wants results. Ultimately, she fits well in the group by standing out. Everyone else has their moral or material reasons for joining the Inquisition, while she is in it purely for politics.
Elect her as divine, everything falls apart cos she is that good. Shes the worst choice you can make actually. Oh and even Cassandra gets disgusted by her and leaves. But it's rpg. You like her, you keep her.
@@theoutsider7331 I never said anything about her being divine. I also consider Cassandra a bad divine because although she keeps people happy, she does so by bringing back the very same problems that people were fighting over. She also sacrifices her personal happiness in the process especially if you romance her. The only objectively good divine choice is Leliana. But once again, my comment wasnt about divines.
i hate her "my dear" -ing me all the time. I hate her presuming herself as the senior partner in the inquisition. she need to get put back to her place: back at her chateau.
Even if shes not divine she causes issues with enchanters with her new circle of magi, war between the 2 is brewing and how she treats others she is what most call a bitch, morrigan is misunderstood not viv and she didn't act as bitchy as viv, i dislike viv, i dont hate her, but i dislike her, hate is stronger emotion and i dont feel it, if she is in my crew and i can't help her grow then i rather not have her, ofc not all playtroghs, but thsts how i petsonally feel, there is nothin to misundersdand about her
She’s definitely not poorly betrayed. Her and cole are the two most well written characters in Bioware history. It’s up to the player to see their point of view and personalities.
The fact that she's a bitch just makes her more likeable, in my opinion. I'm kinda an ass in real life, so that's probably why haha. I like all companions in DA:I.
I got this scene right when I got to skyhold on my very first playthrough . She didn’t like my opinion on mages back in Haven or that I sided with them and made them allies lmao
@@barbiecore_ The n@htz33s thought they were right about the roma & jews too. Viv is just H*t1er in fancy dress. Don't bother trying to argue with me. I'm roma. Fvck that fascist cvnt Viv.
@@thufreeman7553 Good argument. I hope you remember Connor and how he almost buried Redcliffe as a weak magician who let in a demon. But you won’t have to face the real consequences of such things and bear responsibility; it’s easier for you to be a kind idiot who doesn’t understand that the circle is the only adequate solution for everyone. You give freedom to magicians and you get Tevinter with slaves and power only to magicians. Among the Qunari, magicians generally do not live a full life. Here the weak are guaranteed rights, because for the church there is no difference between them, they are all magicians. And the magicians will begin to find out among themselves who is stronger or who will be stronger to overthrow by force the one who runs the college. Therefore, control from outside is a mandatory practice. It’s like inspection bodies, if everyone were without outside control, then theft and disregard for rules and safety precautions would begin.
Vivienne isn't a well-written character, she's a writer's pet. They knew people would want to kick her out after this conversation and didn't put in the option because that would make poor Vivienne look stupid.
Actually I think it would make the Inquisitor look stupid. Like, people will ask "Wait, where did the Grand Enchanter to the Imperial Court and leader of the loyal mages and our biggest connection to Orlais go and the most powerful member of the Inner Circle go?" and the answer will be "...Some furniture was reaaranged and the Inquisitor threw a tantrum and demanded that she leave." and that's just not a level of stupidity they wanted the Inquisitor to play out, even if that's what you would have done.
She's excellently written actually, but the one flaw she has is the lack of character development. She stays the same from the beginning to end, and your only recourse is to get her on your side as a powerful ally. Because she's so tied to politics, however, you're unlikely to get on her good side unless you see the value of politics- which in this game is as important as stopping the oversimplified evil entity.
I just wish we could’ve had some better responses. Something like “well if you want to push furniture around for your own bizarre pleasure, you do you, I’ll be out saving the world and brokering peace between countries and fighting an ancient dark spawn magister, have fun with your interior decorating” Like the game literally didn’t give us any way to win that’s argument, it just felt unfair and like we were forced to play a whiny character for that cutscene. why couldn’t we just make our character say they didn’t care, because honestly why would the inquisitor care?
@@sarawawa8984 my personal alternative would be to revoke any and all servant privileges from her. She has to do everything by hand now and no one is allowed to help her. It's somewhat petty, but its also appropriate because she was misusing her power/authority over the servants.
I adore her. I always love her in my travel group. I agree there needs to be mage circles so I always support her. She is the elegant and proper mage the game needed!
Why does this woman have any fans? I admit that her defending a male inquisitor's relationship with Dorian was a high-note, but trying to protect a system which had proven itself to be corrupt and foolhardy? Keeping her own kind under oppression merely because she was comfortable under the same system? And the whole idea of treating politics like a game? Madness! this woman is everything I hate about places like Orlais, where fancy clothes and haughty accents hide a reality more savage than any barbarian tribe.
Well, a big part of it is that she's acting from within the system that has abused her. She is shown to be capable of kindness to people she likes, she's very capable both politically and on the battlefield, she does sincerely want mages happy, if not free, and she is a victim of the Chantry and its teachings too. The problem being, that she's a) comparatively lucky for a mage and b) very, very firmly indoctrinated into Chantry thought. The two feed off each other - if she had not been as thoroughly indoctrinated, she'd never have been given the chances that she parlayed into power and influence, for example - but they do make her a frustrating character. I'd probably like her a lot better if we were allowed the chance to argue with her, and also if they'd given Fiona a larger role and thus given us a firmly pro-mage counterbalance in the form of someone who HAS suffered a lot of the worst of this world as an elven woman, a Circle mage and a former slave. Vivienne's problem, in large part, is that she has fallen into what I call the Alexander Hamilton thought trap - the mindset of 'I worked my way up to get all of this, so can other people' while ignoring all the luck it took to get there. And she doesn't quite get just how unfair it is that her own freedom has depended on her having powerful benefactors, which most mages don't have.
I agree! Vivienne's problem is that she has won more freedom than almost any mage we ever see by being very lucky and very clever, and that she has what seems to be an institution-wide case of Stockholm Syndrome. She will praise the Circles to the heavens, but they still threw her to a demon to be Harrowed and imprisoned her for most of her life, and if she acknowledges that the rebels have a point, that means admitting that everything that was done to her was just cruelty and control for its own sake. And that is really, really hard to reckon with. She wants to believe any mage can achieve what she did, even in this system, because the alternative is that she could have been killed or made Tranquil or suffer one of the many other unimaginable fates suffered by mages who aren't lucky. I don't agree with her, I don't want to give her the power to decide the fate of her fellow mages...but I do feel sorry for what she has had to contend with, and I wish there was a way to get through to her, because she, like all mages, deserves much better than the Chantry has given her.
Just because a system isn't perfect, doesn't mean you throw it out completely. That's how you get chaos and anarchy. You know who is the first to be targeted in chaos and anarchy? Minorities. In this case, mages. They'd be made a scapegoat and everyone would want them dead: It's exactly what happened at the end of DA2 with the Annulment. Also, lol @ saying she keeps her kind under "oppression". Go ask any poor peasant, whose daily life is avoiding war and working to the bone each day just to eat if they'd like to live in a comfy Circle where they are provided with food, shelter, education, peers, and protection. The Circles are a marked improvement over what the average citizen in Thedas has to endure. Also keep in mind that even as "oppressed" as you might think they are, that didn't stop Vivienne or Wynne from enjoying freedom. Hell even a well behaved mage like Finn was free to go, it's really not as harsh as the whiners would have you believe. She doesn't treat politics like a game, that tradition was in place before her. Don't pin Orlais's bullshit on her. Politics to most people really is just a big popularity contest, that's been proven time and time again IRL. Don't hate her because she is eloquent and has great fashion sense.
I LOVE how they wrote Vivienne to stand in her opinions & to be unapologetic about what she wants & believes. I’m glad they didn’t make her some bland token black character who’s over friendly to be palatable for a *certain* demographic.
Except the part where they made a black character be (a depending on your interpretation of the situation) a category traitor, a colaborator towards an opressor class. Yes I am calling Vivienne a Candance Owens character.
@@Palpad100 Or perhaps they realized that making a black character oppose to the system they benefit from, while black people are not oppressed in Thedas in any way, would be a fake and forced narrative that comes from the real world, not the world of the game? It makes just as much sense as remastering the game to make Putin the new antagonist.
@@4RedJohn Unless said black person is a slave, a commoner suffering under noble disputes, an elf, a mage who didn't manage to seduce a noble to get out of their circle tower and then social climb themselves into a system that punches down the common folk (looking at you Vivienne), etc...
@@Palpad100 That's not the best analogy, because mages are objectively dangerous, as they can get possessed, they can control the minds of others, and have enough of power to put down an entire squad of soldiers with one spell. Those who are oppressed in the real world endure it not because there's no other way; the world simply wants to exploit them.
@@4RedJohn Except its clear that the chantry's way doesn't help the mages and it doesn't prevent their possession. The circles were a place of subjugation and torture. And the mages are exploited, they are sent to war whenever there is a big conflit and then thrown back to their prisons, they are not allowed to have family's and to fall in love in some cases. If anyone has children it is immediately taken from them and put up for adoption.
@@GenericUsername-qp1ww you can like a bad character. Maybe not want real people like them to exist, but they do. In fiction, its characters like these that make things interesting. Game of thrones was made better for Cersei Lannister's story not worse.
Pretty sure they'd mostly get along well. Both are very supportive of the status quo (particularly the Circle system), after all. The only point of conflict, I believe, would be that Wynne might think Vivienne distorts the ideals she stands for in the name of politicking, but otherwise they're quite alike.
Concubine. Huh. Did we play a different game? Or is the only insult you can think of for a woman is to call her a prostitute because you didn't like her?
@@zacharywood9416 Wasn't she Duke Bastienne's? That was pretty much the only reason she could strut around the way she did while also being a mage. Instead of being imprisoned in a circle.
I will never not find it funny how DA fans can be such babies. "Wah wah, Viv is mean" Do people seriously just like characters that only play to them and their interest.
@mila Its more of a "You cannot do anything about her." She acts like if she owned the place, like someone being totally above you, complete smug and all that AND you CAN T PUT HER IN HER PLACE. Thats the problem. You can tell Sera she is arrogan childish piece of shit and to get the hell outta there, you can tell that Morrigan is a poissonous viper and to get the hell out of there BUT writers protect Lady Vivienne and you cant do shit about her THAT is why she is hated the most.
The Inquisitor can't put vivienne in her place, she's smarter and can verbally destroy him/her pretty easily. She would kick the inquisitors ass in a fight too
Vivienne is such a great character when it comes to motivations. Her viewpoint is the only one that stands up to scrutiny after the mage shitshow of Dragon Age 2. I feel people who dislike her must've not played it.
Her viewpoint is one who had the favor of a duke which allowed her to live outside the circle and engage in politicking, which is actually a big no-no because the chantry forbids mages from holding any political power. She is a spoiled and entitled brat who never had it hard a day in her life due to never knowing what it was like to live in any other circle or experience the abuses many mages, especially the ones in Kirkwall, faced. That crazy templar bitch in DA2 decided to slaughter the circle wholesale after the act of a mage not of their circle and got EXACTLY what was coming to her.
@@Marsproject11 A mage used magic to commit a 9-11 (Anders), mages frequently get possessed as displayed in all three games; this isn't a 1% thing it happens all the time. They can't police themselves. A circle-like structure is all they've got. When Vivienne becomes divine she maintains that and increases mage's purpose, power and responsibility within Thedas so they aren't chaffing under their circumstance. They truely get to 'serve man'
@@davidgalland3070 Anders did what he did because of the opression of circles. Most mages who became possessed where mages terrified of their own magic or pissed of at a system that surpressed them or they where desperate. All of which was mostly caused by opression. when Mages are given less reason to be angry and scared to such levels, them listening to demonic whispers that could cause them to die seems far less likely. People dont tend to accept deals with demons unless they are desperate in some way. Desperate to change things, desperate to escape their reality, desperate for change, justice or vegeance. What the circle created was a self fullfilling propehecy. Mages became dangerous because of them. There will surely be the occasional problematic mage without them, but no more or less then other problematic people. And most abominantions can easely be fought be the right equipped people. Do keep templars around, but like some kind of ghost buster team to track down and destroy abominations. Leave the actual mages alone.
Vivienne's thirst for power is why I hate her so much, I'm certain if she weren't a mage she'd turn a blind eye to all of the brutality happening in Kirkwall.
She basically does as a mage, any conversation about her with mages she obviously has a very low opinion of mages, infantilizes them and acts like they had no reason to rebel.
While I personally hate Vivienne and Sera you can't deny they're very well written characters that serve as a very relevant social critique: They basically display how people from an opressed group, be it women, racialized groups or the LGBT community do often hate their peers, and how that is a problem not just for their community but also themselves. Vivienne has the power to help other mages but chooses not to because of class privilege, in which she is comfortable. While Sera personally campaigns against elves because she was raised among (racist) humans to hate them, and is now desperate for human approval to the point of mimicking them.
But she does help other mages, exclusively so if she's made Divine (which even sets the precedent told in the story that every Divine after her will always be a mage). Viv says outright that mistreatment of mages in the circle is bad, and that's why it needs a total overhaul. Like how teachers in real life acknowledge how the public school system is bad and needs a total overhaul, not "let's have no school so everyone can be free". There isn't a single instance where Viv supports abuse within the Circle, and - if she is Divine- gives Mages more responsibility and accountability through the new policies she creates.
@@JAWbreaker316 truly admirable. Imagine if MLK made black folks still sit at the back of the bus but added massage chairs. If Leliana is elected divine, Fiona makes sure that mages have a school to learn to control their abilities without the need of imprisoning them
@@muchahonra2b Your analogy of MLK and rear bus segregation speaks to your lack of understanding American history. You might want to look into that a bit deeper, my dear. But again, the Circle is supposed to be an institution - just like schools are. Not every Circle had the level of oversight her's did, and that is the consistency she brings to the institution (as if Xaviers School for the Gifted was a franchise) Speaking of Lelianna Divine, she is depicted to be rather cruel in her actions depending on the choices you make with her. Neither Viv or Cass have this reflected in their stories if they are elected. I agree with your critique about Viv enjoying luxury and class benefit, and Sera's need for any approval (Viv checks her on this if you keep them both in your party, just like she does Blackwall).
@@JAWbreaker316 Leliana is cruel towards her detractors aka oppresors of mages, and only because they sent hitmen first. No biggie here. Sugarcoat it however you want. Circles were still prisons, with templars stopping the inmates from escaping, and making them tranquils if things got out of hand. No different from gay conversion camps.
I used to think that about Vivienne. But on subsequent playthroughs I’ve realised she’s more complicated than that. I still don’t agree with her stances even a little bit lol but I understand her more. “I’ll set an example as a mage” Vivienne greatly approves “Maybe mages should join the chantry clergy?” “Hmm, interesting idea my dear.” (Vivienne greatly approves) “I disagree that mages should be kept in towers but I believe learning about magic and it’s dangers is important.” Vivienne greatly approves. You can give the mages their freedom, save the grey wardens and make leliana divine and still reach maximum approval from her if you play your cards right. She’s not a monster.
Yeah, you have to lie to her a LOT. "Sure, Vivienne. I, the atheist Inquisitor who got roped into this because a completely pointless Conclave and a useless Divine blew up, think that the Chantry should be put back just as it was before this entire disaster. Riiiight." What gets me is that she seems to buy the lies even if you take no action supporting them.
@@Rhysdux I just avoid her all together. I don't get the books for her, since I would have to tell her "I want to help the Circles" (which I absolutely do NOT want to). I do her heart quest, though. I don't want to be the one to make her lose Bastien, she can do that perfectly by herself. She admitted to abusing MY influence for her PERSONAL gain, which is triggering to me. Once, she basically TOLD me what I had to do to make HER Divine. As if THAT would ever happen. Leliana is my Divine. Cass is my second choice, but I'd rather have her rebuilding the Seekers. Viv isn't even an alternative as Divine to me. I also prefer not bringing her anywhere. Except when getting that effing heart. She better believe she has to do some dirty work for that. I MAY be petty enough to let her fall during that fight, because it makes me feel infinitely better. But this can't be verified. ☝️ She is so well written, that I hate her. With a passion. While simultaneously staying on her somewhat good side. If ever she greatly approve of a decision I make, I might reload, unless someone I actually DO like, also approve. Gods, what a bitch...
I so angry that I took her into the "boat'. Shes only annoying nd her opinion about mages is ridiculous.. I hate her for acting so smartass. I wonder if u can throw her out.. :I
If the game allowed me to, I would throw her off the battlements of skyhold, then have Sera drow rude words all over her corpse and mail her back to Orlais in a box. Insult me and my actions a you want, but she was rude to The Egg and the Smol Spirit Cinnamon Bun (To say nothing of the entire Dalish people), and that cannot be forgiven, nor can it go unpunished.
I hate when people that say shit like "smol bun boy" follow it up with weird cringey anger like pick an embarrassing thing to do on the internet you can't have them all lol
Morrigan was also a rude jerk matter a fact she was WAYYY worse than viv. And fenris was also Extremely mean and rude to poor Merrill? And after the quest “A new path” the guy says some absolutely vile things to her?? but people like those characters for some reason and hate viv because she’s a little mean lmao Make it make sense seriously
@@LoopyLemon775 Morrigan is witch of the wilds who is a rude jerk because she’s a rude jerk to everyone, and Fenris has a pretty understandable reason for why he is a jerk, while being an escaped slave from Tevinter. Viv is a respected, seemingly wealthy woman who hangs out with the orlesian nobility, and despite being a mage, stands partially in opposition to the mage rebellion (based on what happens if she is made Divine, her opinion on the oppression of mages is essentially “the current system of Circles is fundamentally fine, and if we just reform the minutiae of the circles, and crack down some on the worst of the abuse, everything will good”), while gaining power and influence in court. And unlike Morrigan, her rudeness is targeted mostly at those who she sees as beneath her or violating the rules of the chantry. Morrigan is just kind of a bitch to everyone, while Viv is just a bigot.
@@willowdelosrios4326 I understand he went through slavery and all but I still don’t understand why he is loved for well.. being a bigot while viv is hated? He still generalize mages and think all mages are the same even tho he is surrounded by mages that would do anything for the guy. And yes although morrigan isn’t a bigot she is still a jerk and would always disapprove of the player being a decent human and trying to help people. I brought these characters up mainly because of the people who dislike viv for being a big meany pants but would like characters like morrigan even tho she’s a jerk that dislikes everything involving saving people and being a normal decent human being lmao And the people who dislike viv because she’s pro circle and a “bigot” but would turn around and fan girl over characters like fenris?
i legit don't see a reason to take her at the start of the game. all the year that have passed a i would rather so a great many things in the past 2 games if i could get the chance to kick her out.
oh no, the arrogant hypocritical black bowling ball dissaproves. Whatever will I do? she's so valuable to the Inquisition. Seriously Bioware, y didn't u give us the option to kill her and the annoying elven chav?
Your name suits you. You're a boring nobody who needs to proclaim it so its easier to point you out. Racism is not something to find in yourself, but you know what you should look for in yourself? A shower. That will be all.
@@beckywiththegoodhair5244 wtf are u blathering on about? I was simply pointing out how its annoying how 2 squadmates I wanted to kill I was unable to. If this were Origins then Sera and Viv would b as good as dead
out of all the games why WHY did the murder knife take a vacation during Inquisition? ah well, hopefully theres a way to kill off both Viv and Sera in DA4
I got a “middle ground” relationship with vivienne, where I got a good amount of both high and low approval, I just didn't want her to become divine lol (She still considered me a friend tho)
