Vorlons Vs Shadows Battle Redux 

Ignorance was bliss. We had no idea at the time. We just enjoyed what we had, which for the time, wasnt half bad.

@@n5syr01 I LOVED Babylon 5 due to the great writing, characters, acting, etc. Sets were pretty good. Graphics were state of the art at the time, but were primative in modern terms. Better graphics would have been prettier, but not improve the great storytelling very much.

@@LoanwordEggcorn The problem was not so much that better graphics could not be achieved during that era the problem was cost. During the same era of Babylon 5, Terminator 2 was released...the scenes with the liquid terminator doing the liquid thingy was very well made and also about half the budget of that movie for just a few seconds of movie time. I believe I read somewhere it was the most expensive CGI scenes ever made at the time. Today better CGI can be achieved with the computing power of a cheap home pc.....not so much back in the 90's.

@@jhoxihum3230 Yes, Babylon 5 certainly did not have a big budget. They did wonderfully well with what little they had.

@@LoanwordEggcorn It i said if avionics also advanced as quick as computers over the past 4 decades, having reached Mars would have been old news. My first "computer" in the mid 80's had 1k memory and it was AWESOME!!

Correct not one on one, but then vorlons can't breed either they are energy beings not organic so when one is killed/dispersed they are gone and can never be replaced (although in their past they may once have been a physical being), while shadows can replenish their numbers and over whelm their telepaths with sheer numbers. This was why Vorlons manipulated other races and telepaths came out of no where and across multiple species which is why Narns don't have any, anymore because when the shadows invaded their home world 1000 years before in the first war they exterminated all telepaths in the Narn population. Shadow ships only need a life form to be the processor of the shadow vessel and as such can be "jammed" but then they can only jam one ship at a time.

Lie much? Vorlon used telepath like Lita. No where in any season did any Vorlon do such a thing, in fact Lita proved a telepath could read them as well. Next person who clueless

The Vorlon ships seem to be more powerful anyway.

Except that Vorlons-warships aren't piloted by Vorlons.

Well said. As much as I'm a massive fan of B5 it's always bothered me that the shadows were considered such a treat. Especially with their outdated technology from their hibernations.

Even it being a “destroyer” was a retcon for Agents of Gaming’s miniature game. In the show it was meant to be a simple Vorlon transport like Kosh’s ship. What we don’t know it how many ships exactly each faction had. JMS did change his mind several times.

Vorlons do the same thing as that shadows and use others to do there dirty work and why do we never see the shadows useing all their full power likt the jump point disrupter plus ship melding and let's not forget the death cloud that could of beaten everyone in the last major war

@@dragonback6075 Kosh himself stated numerous times they were equal, as did Lorien. Only reason battle was so lopsided it because it was a surprise attack violating the rule that they do not engage each other. B5 fan should know that. Any first one can destroy any first one as stated by Lorien, the actual first one. Who would be way more powerful than any Vorlon or Shadow.

Nope both Kosh and Lorien stated they were equal in power.

Yeah same! They re did Star Trek the original series with better cgi there's no shortage of fans that could do B5 some rework of its cgi for a re release

Space is simple, u don't need to create something complicated. Check out the game called "Eve", so the charater creator they have is much more complicated than a whole game.

HBO MAX recently brought Babylon 5 with Remastered CGI.

it's happening!

JH24821 yea I would have loved to see those vorlon dreadnaughts and the planet killer in action ....

They dont have the money to do the cgi. Earth ships are to be way more menacing but they cut the budget.

Being the ancient ones, they lost their sight on their mission to protect and advance mankind. I don't think they wanted to fight each other, probably will end in a stalemate, but to control man. This is the 3rd Age of Mankind. I feel overall the Vorlons would win, but man, those Shadow crabs are amazing. Love the show, the ships and the Babylon station. Lots of thought was placed in making things work well and correctly in space.

Shadow planet killer was doing the same if you can see.

Head to head, a Vorlon ship is tougher than a Shadow ship of equivalent size, as we saw on several occasions where they either faced each other directly or took hits from the same type of opponent. The Shadows had a more distributed battle philosophy using larger numbers of less powerful ships, while the Vorlons concentrated their forces in smaller numbers of more powerful ships. We can even see this in their two Planet Killers. The Vorlons used a single big ship with a powerful gun and protected by heavy armour, while the Shadows deployed a cloud of millions of smaller missiles operated in concert.

Cheers !

Younger races defeated Shadows and Vorlon. Might try to watch the series before proving you know nothing.

very much agreed. It's a good vid but some Vorlons should have been destroyed as well. We saw a Vorlon tank a Shadow beam yes, but it did it with shields not on bare hull. The hull hit we saw on show did take a piece out of the vessel it hit. Suggesting a direct hit to at least a comparable sized ship should cause moderate damage at minimum. Likewise the Shadows know their enemy. They wouldn't send a fleet if they didn't think it at least had a chance to do some harm, and that poor fleet didn't seem to accomplish jack. xD

@popasmuerf go back and rewatch when they first attack the Shadows at Sheridan's request. The large Vorlon ship is clearly shown to have shields, though they appear to have failed by the end of the battle.

@popasmuerf You need your eyes checked. Go back and watch it closely, the impact point is on shields and the shadow blast does not even contact the Vorlon ships hull. It impacts open area between where the Vorlon ships "arms" are. Not to mention the ripples of energy from the stopped shot move with the motion of the Vorlon ship, staying in front of it and not touching the hull either.

I think in the show it was known that the Shadow ships did not value life the same way the Vorlons did, hence their ships weren't as armored/ protected. Vorlons did not like losing anyone as they lived until accidents took them out. Shadows were about causing chaos and death, kicking over the anthills, so probably wouldn't care if some were destroyed.

I think we did see, in the original show, a Shadow energy beam slice off one of the four forward pylons on a Vorlon ship.

Its wouldnt Be Call Babylon 5- maybe Raise Of EarthForce

The PK is generally accepted to be between 45~60 KM. It's f'in massive and would dwarf B5. It never visited the B5 station in the series.

@@SpacialKatana Here the PK look to small.

The Vorlon Dreadnaught does not seem to be that huge here.

What makes you think it wouldn't make you insane?

@@Zodroo_Tint It would make you insane if you were not properly prepared as they stated in the show. I would only want to fly it if I could avoid the negative consequences of doing it.

The Shadows were agents of chaos and evil.

@@menacelurkingyet8345 I know that. I don't approve of their ideology. I just like their ships and their technology in general.

the board games aren't cannon. On the show, the Vorlons clearly outclassed the shadows at this point in time. An it make sense, the Shadows slept for thousands of years at a time, the vorlons continue to advance their plans and come up with new weapons.

dude it took the entire Vorlon fleet to send the third space aliens back to they dimension, remember kosh said the 3rd space aliens are all telepathic, does that mean not all Vorlons are telepathic ?, that statement had me completely confused in B5 third space movie, I guest the third race aliens were way more powerful than the Vorlons because all they wanted to do was conqueror everything, to the point the vorlons had a very difficult time sending them back to they dimension and it was not even they full armada came through.

@@partytoy1 The events of the third space aliens took place millions of years ago. So back not all vorlons were telepaths. An it is said it took all of the first ones, using automated ships to fight back against the aliens.

The Thirdspace Aliens are clearly more powerful than either the Vorlons or the Shadows. They are more like the equivalent of Lorien’s people in their dimension/universe. The first and oldest of all races to achieve sentience and technology. Only instead of becoming benevolent guides/mentors/uplifters for the younger races that followed as Lorien’s people did, they went full xenocidal instead.

I had an Amiga 1200 with a 68060 accelerator card back in the day. Played Frontier: Elite II to death on it. I also had a 3D program called Imagine, and that's where it all started :)

Glad you enjoyed it !

We can’t say for certain that ALL Vorlon ships are benevolent. That was Kosh’s personal ship and Kosh as we know was an atypically benevolent Vorlon.

I know the shadows are suppose to be the oldest of the old ones, just behind Lorien and the Walkers but I always consider the vorlons and the shadows the youngest of the old ones and the least powerful. The only reasons the first ones who stayed behind hasn't stop them in the last 10,000 years is simply because of numbers, the vorlons and shadows heavily out number them.

@@DavidKnowles0the shadows were likely the most numerous of the remaining First Ones. I recall hearing somewhere that the shadows outnumbered the Vorlons a few hundred times over

Because the vorlons had another 1000 years to advance on the shadows. The vorlons are catching up with shadow technology, perhaps even exceeding it.

The M4 Sherman was the most widely used medium tank by the United States and Western Allies in World War II. Shadows were agents of chaos and evil.

Cheers ;)

In Lightwave Z axis is up/down - All I needed to do was move the texture over time very slowly in the Z axis, I just forgot, and TBO everything's moving too fast in these sequences to be really noticable and detractable anyway.

Thanks , appreciated !

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Cheers;)

That's because they were a bit older / more advanced than even the Shadows. Close though.

@@SpacialKatana err, i was to the understanding it was the opposite? The shadows were a million years a head of the vorlons?

Vorlons kept the Shadows in check or otherwise the Shadows would taken over.

@@menacelurkingyet8345 That's *their* version of events, sure. The rest of it is "so *they* could be in control instead" The reality is that the Vorlons can just shut down Shadow ships via telepaths and have spent countless years *modifying* the younger races to oppose the Shadows. It kinda makes the idea they by *that* point in the series that the Vorlons were ever truly at a disadvantage in these conflicts seem kinda suspect

Keep in mind that the Shadows were never intent on deliberately fighting the Vorlons, and their battlecrab ships are actually likely the weakest ships they possess, probably designed specifically to bully younger races all as part of their fomenting chaos philosophy. A glimpse of what the Shadows might be truly capable of if they really decided to take their gloves off can be seen in the design and capabilities of the Death Clouds. Those things are far more impressive and militarily flexible than Vorlon Planet Killers. If the Shadows were ever to fight a serious war against a peer rival, ie another First One, chances are they are pulling out multiple Death Clouds and who knows what else.

We all do m8 ;(

3: Hence why I let 'em chop a bit off the PK with 2 beams.

Because they are. Go watch the B5 episode.

think shadows can kill anything, except the vorlons, who are stronger. 3rd space aliens i think i stronger than vorlons cause there older

Take that Vorlons.

lol

Thanks, I remember watching your voxel star cluster anim a short time ago, also nice :)

Being the second oldest race (after Lorien's kind) doesn't necessarily mean that the Shadows were the most advanced one. As an example, the Shadow "planet killer" aka the "Death cloud" seemed to be a lot more primitve than their Vorlon counterpart. The Vorlon planet killer was a "real one" with a death star-like energy weapon, that could tear an entire planet apart. The Shadow "Death cloud" simply used large quantities of "primitive" nuclear warheads to obliterate a planet. In fact, when the Vorlons engaged the Shadows in ep: "Interludes and examination" (season 3) one gets the impression that the Vorlons had sturdier and more powerful ships than the Shadows. Several Shadow capital ships in that battle scene, couldn't even really harm ONE Vorlon capital ship. At the end of the battle all Shadow vessels had been destroyed and the Vorlon task force left without any visible losses.

@@deepblueskyK The shadows may have been more powerful once upon a time. But the shadow sleep for thousands of years between wars, The vorlons don't they stay away and advance their technology. By this time their technology exceeded the shadows. That not to say if the shadow stayed awake for a few thousand years, they themselves wouldn't once again be ahead of the vorlons.

In the final battle you can see the shadows beating vorlon ships just as easy as any other that episode you are talking about where it seem like the vorlons beat the shadows was a surprise attack and the vorlons need telepaths with out telepaths thay stand no chance also in the final battle when the shadow death cloud swallows everything thay could of won beaten all the young races including vorlons Rember the the shadow ships are different sizes the bigger the ship the more powerful the weapons and the vorlon ship you see in that one episode was there biggest and most powerful apart from the planet killer But the shadows ships where only small ones the shadows ships can grow upto 3000 metres in size and if you do your research its states that one of these ships can take out a planet by its self so the shadows are always holding back because they don't want to kill everyone that's not there plan

The Shadow Death Cloud is capable of far more than just dropping millions of nukes on a planet. It could also drain the power out of the entire fleet that the younger races fielded when it engulfed them, for example. And we see in the Call to Arms movie that the Death Cloud is actually a full-on Megastructure with a complex internal structure, bigger than an entire Planet. It is FAR a more impressive technological feat than the Vorlon Planet Killer, which is just a regular space ship with a Very Big Gun.

@@adamwu4565 exactly I don't know why people think the vorlon planet killer I'd so impressive one on one the shadows death cloud out classis it Also way more advanced it doesn't need an entire fleet of dreadnoughts cruisers fighter's to protect it The shadow death cloud is also a fleet killer it's literally a all in one war machine this is what people don't understand this is exactly why the vorlons can't beat the shadows by themselves

There were older races in Babylon 5 that could easily kill them, but they weren't around. They had what the show described as 'left for the outer rim' , the edge of the galaxy.

@@warrendesonia7924 I'd do it but I am missing the First Ones ships, Vree saucer. It'd also take a couple of months to do a decent job of it and the channel would die in that time.

The Shadow Death Cloud is a far more terrifying and capable weapon of war than anything we have seen the Vorlons ever field. In an actual serious all out war, Battlecrabs are probably in equivalent of low cost, expendable drones, meant to overwhelm with numbers.

I've done plenty of vids with Shadows pwning ;)

Can't recall the exact episode, it's on YT in clip form, but yes the Vorlons basically are able to, and do bully the Shadows.

Vorlon Dreadnoughts are significantly more powerful than Shadow battlecrabs one on one. It has to do with the different design philosophies of the two races. The Shadows try to overwhelm with higher numbers of less powerful, individually more expendable ships. The Vorlons deploy fewer ships, but those ships are heavily protected powerhouses. Also, it is strongly implied that the Battlecrabs are the LEAST powerful of all the weapons of war the Shadows actually have access to, designed mainly to test and provoke the younger Races, and not to wage open war against other First Ones. When the Shadows are actually serious about a war they pull out things like their Death Clouds, which is orders of magnitude more terrifying than the Vorlon Planet Killer is. Also, I strongly suspect that if the Shadows piloted their battlecrabs themselves instead of using individuals from younger races as CPU’s, they would not be anywhere near as vulnerable to telepathic jamming. The Shadows were always pulling their punches because they did not actually want to wipe out any of the Younger Races.