In the Voron tradition, I assume we'll have a CIF (cut it forward?) program eventually, for the machined parts in this case. Cause this looks like the CNC I always wanted to build, but never got around to so far. And with the Voron name behind the Design, surely we'll see kits eventually, too. Quality TBD, obviously. New area for those that usually do kits, so might be a learning curve for them, too.
Polycarbonate gets scratched very easily. If you don't want the panels to be ruined by chips real quick, I advise to add maybe a polypropilene sticker to the inside to protect them
Spoke to siboor and they are interested in producing a kit of this. Maybe worth reaching out to them if your looking for companies to produce kits of this later this year. Looks like a lovely sized cnc mill
The week-end live session/video was really fast and I am happy that you circled back to publish this one-on-one interview to give us more details. Great questions, good stuff! Thanks!
I have a fox alien wm3020 machine at a similar form factory. The Voron community getting involved in the subject will be interesting as there is little for small machines that are capable of machining metal.
Actually hope that this little marvel will be scalable. A bit more work volume and the ability to add a waterbed and flood cooling and maybe later a tool changer and we have an absolute winner here. And hopefully we can build this from 40 series rail, not only 30. Plenty of good possibilities there.
Must have one of these... My MPCNC is gathering dust as it's just not good enough. I'm surprised the BOM includes the bed, it could mill its own plate surely?
V2.4 was a thousand+ at one point, kits have caused that price to crash down to below a thousand for even the 350mm. I'm sure in a few years you'll be able to build this for no more than 1.5k
Outstanding! I'm excited for the official release. Personally I would be running Mach4. But that's because I already have a couple of home built CNC machines that run it and I'm both familiar with it and already have it. I'll personally print as much of it as possible. 90% of the products I print are 100% infill anyway. So I'm used to the long print times and some of the potential struggles with 100% infill.
Sweet, looking forward to release and comparisons with the Milo as I need one or the other. After this though can Voron design a metal 3d printer for under 500k thx
I've been seeing the "Carvera" wondering, why in the world hasn't Voron made something similiar that is totally open source. My dreams have been answered!!!
Looks cool, and probably will be the next best upgrade for something like the AnoleX Ultra (ballscrews and linear rails with a 1.5kw spindle for $1700 makes it pretty dang competitive though)
It won't be just a question of whether the machine is of quality or not but also if they can implement some kind of beginner friendly software. Machining is vastly more difficult for a beginner to pick up and learn compared to 3d printing.
I guess what I was saying is that I have a cnc shop. I'd be happy to be a manufacturer for kits as needed (cnc plasma, cnc routing, lasers, a couple cnc milling machines, etc). When the BOM comes out, I'll have of take a look.
This seems moreso in the desktop mini-cnc mill type form. The RatRig Stronghold or whatever seemed more aimed at the “CNC Router” type formfactor. So you get and entire SHEET of something and cut that down. Also larger spindles maybe. It is also a stationary “bed” (for lack of a better word) vs this. Cartesian vs Gantry maybe? Unsure on what is the right term there.
@@tHaH4x0r ah yeah! Is it still on “Coming Soon”, I remember seeing that/asking about it but I didn’t hear too much. Also what is the difference between a cnc router with a “proper” spindle, and a cnc mill? My guess is Z Axis Height?
First of all, I thought Voron is just a project. As for CNC, it looks just standard thing, we have lot of such projects here. But Im pretty sure Voron tried to do top-notch and affordable design. They forgot to flow lubricants while machining steel... 😢 Aa for alternatives, I know company that produces full frame and base as two parts out of plastic/ concrete composite. So it is totally rigid.
For real it has to be able to machine steel ! It would make it not very interesting otherwise. It has to cut the aluminum clean to. Otherwise Milo v1.5 would just be better... UNLESS if you can scale the cascade again
well not to hate but these kind of machines or kits been out for a while it will be hard to compete with existing machines that will be obviously cheaper and as competitive as the new voron cnc
Might be because the enclosure will be odd shaped or just too large. The spindle goes up in Z axis and that area makes the enclosure almost 2x taller. I do recommend to make a full enclosure, chips absolutely will fly out of that gap
I am not excited about the mechanical milling machine presented. I am excited about 3D printer style controllers and wifi interfaces for CNC. I currently have a CNC router running Mach 4 and it kind of sucks. It is so clunky and complicated. I know there are some guys running Duet / reprap control of CNC's but I don't think they have developed a true CNC user interface yet. I also have 2 3D printers, an original CR-10, and a Flying Bear Reborn 2, and I would like to move them off of Marlin. I would really like to use a common controller firmware for both my CNC router, (future CNC mill conversion) and my 3D printers. So I am waiting for a unifying firmware.
So it's basically a 4040's specs with a build volume slightly smaller than a 3018? I would be interested in a side by side comparison to those (obviously with the router upgrade on the 3018 to let it do aluminum) and the Carveras to see if the extra cost is gaining anything in performance against the cheap ones and similar cost makes it at all comparable in capabilities to a Carvera.
@@airatooo Yeah, from what I've seen people do with various desktop CNC mills, Carvera does something with their builds so their 200W spindle cuts metal like any other machine at 1000W. Sometimes just throwing more power at it isn't the best option but it seems like that's the only real choice we have with off the shelf parts. This new Voron build will be somewhere between the price of their mainline machine and the Air.
Please, for the sake of all of us who work in this industry, stop saying “It’s a CNC” - it’s not a CNC, that’s the control system! It’s a CNC mill! Or a CNC lathe! Or a CNC printer! It is some specific machine that has a Computer Numerical Control system to drive it, it is not the control system itself! I appreciate your coverage of it and I’m really glad to see the Voron project getting ready to release Cascade, but please - help us out by using the proper terminology, you have so much reach with your platform and people who don’t know better are going to start parroting you.
So at this point, i am going to acknowledge you are "correct" HOWEVER Lets be honest, in common talk with the majority of people, when you say its a CNC, they know your referring to some sort of subtractive manufacting machine thats controlled by a computer. And this is from someone who spent years working in a toolshop around bays of CNC`s
And that’s why it matters. Because your platform does not just reach people who know, but also people who don’t. And when you’re in a shop, you don’t just say “do it on the CNC”, you say, “Use the Haas” or “put it on the mill”, because calling something a CNC doesn’t distinguish what that machine is capable of (unless you’re taxonomically discussing one machine with a system vs one that’s manual, but again that’s the edge case here). All I’m asking is that in future videos you recognize the impact that your language is going to have on the community. Honestly, I find it hard to believe that you’ve never encountered someone to say this before, because the very first shop I worked in I got immediately smacked and told off by the head machinist for making that mistake.
Seen a couple videos on this now, and Doug seems to be getting a lot more comfortable in front of the camera. The entire concept is very interesting, and I'd really like a CNC router about this size, but alas my dreams exceed my budget - and while this gets closer, it sounds like it's still not going to quite make it. Being poor kinda sucks.
With most Vorons, you need the assistance of another machine. In this case, you'll need a cnc machine to make the parts. For me, I'll be getting a Carvera Air.
@CanuckCreator Yes, that's why it's called Carver Air. It's going to be used for smaller projects. What I meant was that most projects require another machine to make parts for it. Sometimes, you need to outsource it. It's just a fact.
I’m hoping there’s more to the capability. All these simple run downs make me think the Milo 1.5 just beats this out in performance per $ and it’s easier to bootstrap.
different paths to the same goal, Cascade has a smaller footprint and is designed with enclosure already part of the machine vs the milo which takes up a much larger footprint with the advantage of more X and Z work room. Machine choice depends on the user`s goal
It can be done if you do it right, using 4040 (20x20) profiles for the outer frame has been done by others that wanted more room for insulation for example
@SupaaMann I suppose... just a little disappointing. Kind of like supporting a green company who's products are 100% sustainable then they come out with a product that made of unrecyclable material that's trimmed in fur and runs on unrefined oil and baby seal fat. But hey... they make the rules. I don't want to hear anyone talking about "that's not a voron it has a machined part". Not once
The original design was fully "3d printed parts" but was basically just a slightly better 3018. Yes its nice to keep to the wholly COTS only design goals, but lets be honest, with the forces involved with subtractive manufacturing. You do kinda want more rigid...metal....parts Also, its mostly just plates with holes in em, we had to drill our own beds back in the day before they became common to buy.
This While it tries to keep the the whole design goal of voron using COTS as much as possible, lets be honest, the forces involved in CNC are greatly different then FDM and thus, the increased rigidity of metal parts is needed in some locations. As covered in the video, most of the 8 "special" components can be simply metal plates of the correct XY size (most are designed without a specific required thickness as well) with holes drilled in em. If your planning on building and using a CNC, drilling holes in aluminum shouldnt be too far of a leap skill/tooling wise to do by hand
The voron team actually advises against metal components because of the increased resonance. But I'm sure there's some parts that would work better with metal.
@@CanuckCreator Sure out of the box. Most folks go for an after market spindle then add beefier rails, all of which can be done for well under $200. Im interested to see what the voron team come up with though.
Remember, that price is for self sourcing with no bulk discounts, you`ll probably see the price drop quite a bit on kits like what happened with the Voron Printers after a while
CNC Milling is quite a bit different than Printing. Sure, the machines look to be moving in the same way. But that's where the similarities end. Milling has to endure being forced through a material that really would rather not be cut. Printing is basically just dragging a nozzle around with no load. Other than the weight of the print head... Not for nothing though... That's approximately the same price as building a self sourced 350mm V2.4 with quality materials. Having said all this... There are TONS of DIY CNC designs out there now. I built a CNC Router out of MDF almost a decade ago and it's still cutting great. If cost is your primary concern though. MPCNC is probably the cheapest way to build a CNC router/mill right now. It's not gonna be anywhere near as rigid or precise as this design is. But having built one myself. I can tell you that it works pretty well. It's definitely more precise than my old MDF machine. But admittedly...I cut a lot of corners when I built the MDF machine.
@@CanuckCreator I really love the idea of bootstrapping with printed parts. Printed cncs have already proven to be good enough to make themselves replacement parts. It would be amazing if the designs could accommodate for this via optional captive nuts etc. instead of a complete redesign.
Hello Nero, yet another interesting video from you! Firstly, it's imperative to bear in mind that all the preceding Voron machines, including this milling machine, are CNC devices. It's crucial to note that "CNC" isn't solely synonymous with milling machines but encompasses any machine controlled by numerical commands, including 3D printers and not exclusively milling machines. Now, I want to highlight a significant design flaw made by the Voron team here. The MGN type rails operate on a single ball circulation system, which is suitable for tools not subjected to operational stresses, such as lasers, 3D printers, plasma cutters, etc. However, for tools enduring physical cutting stresses-essentially, tools encountering material resistance-like milling machines, lathes, drills, among others, rails with dual ball circulation, such as the HGH type, are essential. In such applications, the purpose shifts from linear axis guidance to containing dynamic loads across all three axes while maintaining an equal level of static moment in all directions, not solely along the axis. However, the MGN15 exhibits a static moment more than twice lower in the other directions than its axis, unlike the HGH15. Furthermore, with an equivalent rail width, the MGN is three times less stable on its axis and five times less stable on the other axes than an HGH rail. There's a miscasting here. What happens practically during milling with MGN rails? Well, since the guides are less well-constrained, each axis of the machine introduces weaknesses in the other directions. As soon as the tool engages, the material resistance will dissipate into the weak axes of each guide. In other words, the machine's "feed and speed" parameters will need to be reduced until they fall within the load-bearing capacity of the guides, which are very low with the MGN series, thereby diminishing the milling machine's capacity and performance. And since the weaknesses of the guides accumulate across all three axes, the capacity enabled by a 1500w spindle carrying a tool up to 13mm in diameter (1/2") will be greatly affected. In summary, due to its guides, the machine has an oversized spindle, which allows for mounting cutting tools of a diameter far too large for the dynamic load that the rails can support. In other words, a 500w spindle carrying only 7mm diameter tools may already exceed the capacity of the MGN15 rails. Here are some figures that anyone can verify: an MGN15 rail mounted in the X direction has a static moment of 21.6Nm in the Y and Z directions. However, a 1500w spindle, without cutting effort, already generates a torque of 6Nm. Moreover, material resistance can induce a delta-torque five times greater. Therefore, it's insufficient on just one axis alone. Since the weakness will accumulate across all three axes, we fall far short of the requirement to support the standard cutting efforts of a 1500w spindle. Here, we find ourselves in the scenario of a 3D printer equipped with a high-flow nozzle, but with mechanical components that resonate, reducing the acceleration to a laughable level compared to the hotend's capacity. So, I understand very well what led to the choice of MGN rails: cost and the habit of using them on 3D printers. However, subtractive manufacturing, such as milling, has a completely different set of requirements. I don't want my comment to come across as disdain or baseless criticism; however, it's a common beginner mistake to economize on guides and transmission. Because, I'm afraid, 12mm ball screws are also undersized for this type of spindle. My advice for the Voron team is that a machine, especially a milling machine, must be consistent in all aspects. The structure, electromechanics, guides, and transmission must be proportionate to the cutting tool and inherent torque. So either the spindle and tools need to be downsized, or the guides and transmission need to be upsized. Otherwise, we'll settle for what an unbalanced machine can deliver. It's a pity because the components that drag the machine down render the good components, like the spindle, inadequate and therefore too expensive. Consequently, we could create an equally performing machine, yet less expensive, with coherent components. This is evident to the seasoned engineer that I am, without further in-depth investigation of the machine, especially its crucial structure. All said amicably and with humility.
No wonder you're having such issues with steel. Wrong tool and size, and huge stick out and going slow. Need to go high feed cutter and feed fast and shallow and use hsm workflow.
