The cam timing numbers in the video don't reference to anything, other than the vvti pulley in fully retarded position. The run at "25 degrees" is probably around 5-10degrees advanced over stock cam timing. The exhaust cam timing was setup for best power, with a working vvti intake map previous to making this video. yeah i lied in the video I had already built the vvti map a few days before filming. Will be swapping to the aftermarket cams at some stage soon.
@@Garage4age vvti only on exhaust will give lower power and torque compared to vvti on inlet... But dual vvti will give more low down torque, fatter mid torque/power than current result.. and probably a slightly flatter power & torque curve at high rev range...whennu have ability to retard the exhaust cam at high rev range for scavenging effect... Only question is how much gain percentage will it make with dual vvti (vs single vvti) and does it worth making dual vvti setup for that gain... *My take: for all out race engine not worth doing dual vvti... Single intake vvti by all mean, definately worthy addition to 4age
@@AmirPomen I have tired it with adjustable cam gears. while it does similar to the inlet cam with small movements, (but opposite directions) there is very little to be had over fixed timing. on my big cam engine; (its limited by piston to valve clearance but can see the trend) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-talcYF6UZOM.html turbo engine with stock camsru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-bnIsNwdKnCw.html. maybe some other engines will act differently. but not worth it one these ones
Any chance you could show us how you fitted the vvt to the 16v? How you mounted/plumbed the solenoid, where’s the reference sensor, did you have to machine a gallery in the first cam journal etc? Awesome channel mate.
Consider adding throttle position to the spreadsheet. You may find best torque at part throttle has a different angle to WOT, which may affect the feel-good factor.
@@dan4age overall produced torque and torque curve position shifts under varying engine loads. Hence why shifts points change based on engine load ( throttle body position)
@@lewisanth4986 it's only relative to throttle position throttle only changes how much of peak torque you want peak torque and power is always made at 100% throttle
@@dan4age I didn't mean peak torque in that sense. I meant peak torque per throttle position. Torque produced & it's curve simultaneously shift with engine load. Hence why the short 0% and 100% reply you gave made me want to correct that. The peak torque position against rpm at a certain throttle position will shift with various throttling amounts. OP steve is right in this regard, so are you but only partially. The way i understood what I read was peak torque does not shift but simply change quantity but maintain it's position on the graph. If you meant what I'm actually talking about then forgive me as I didn't interpret it that way.
Golly, it's not even protesting until the last few 100 rpm's, now that's a well-built & well-tuned 4age, even without the "specialu" VVT-i! You could set up shop based around ecu's w/solid maps like that! 😁
If I were to run even 5° Advance, I'd be putting in inlet valve right though the top of the piston. Great results and proof that VVT is well worth it. Wish I could make use of it.
Thats the plan. 90% of the reason i built this junker engine was to test the vvt/i setup, without wrecking my good engine. just took longer than expected and got a little side tracked along the way as you do 😂
Yeah its well past it with these cams at high rpm. The intake manifold is tuned for 8000-8500rpm, thats the only reason its making power up there still. then falls on its face hard at 8500. The vvti cant do much for it, to hang on any further. with stock cams it would probably actually make more power if pulled the intake manifold tuning down to 7500rpm
Always stoked when I see a new one from you. I'd love to see if a variable intake and an exhaust with an electric valve to a second larger exhaust could improve this. Instead of compromising like they do with fixed cams they can alter it mid rpm range. I think if the same is done with the intake and exhaust the sonic pulses that help scavenging and bringing in fuel air mix could also be tuned on the fly for the best of both worlds. I always notice without vvt you can hear the engine come in and out of like efficiency zones, it shows on the dyno as peaks and valleys on it's way up. Some mods seem to move the peaks and valleys around but vvt seems to bring everything up across all the peaks, never dipping
End game is some kinda of variable intake, along with the vvti. The vvti kinda effectively changes the length of the intake. since the intake valve closing time is being moved around
@@Garage4age you could try to make the variable intake plenum from an Alfa 2.0 Twin spark 16v work with an adaptor or some welding. They have a flap to switch between a short path and a long one. The cam/intake changeover kicking in on them is grin inducing.
@@Jonathan_Doe_ I come up with an idea that should work on my itb setup awhile back. Its on hold till later down the track, as sizes / lengths will need to be specific to rest of setup. will be a bit of work in it. so don't really want to build it twice!
@@Garage4age yes the time the pulse has to rebound varies depending on valve timing and rpm. In Mazda motors the system went from vris or variable resonance intake system to vics or variable intake charge speed. Not sure the difference in the actual workings of it yet, seems like if you could do similar with the exhaust you could really chase ideal resonance. That's something manufacturers have been toying with since the 60's Mopar had something called the sonic commando.
Haven't tested myself. but was at another dyno when a guy tested filter socks on a 1uz with itb's & cams. gained decent amount of power removing them. the big px600 pipercross that i use on my itb's has zero loss in power with it on.
I'd really like to know what you did to for the oil feed and control of the vvti. This really shows the power potential these engines had without the modern hardware.
I'm surprised by how little "under the curve" power there is using VVT-i. Could different intake and/or cams affact drivability and under the curve power more by using variable timing?
It will work better with bigger cams. even though its making really good power for stock cams, the bolt ons are a bit of a mismatch for them. basically im getting away with a lot more "fixed advance" in the top end than normally would.
what does a VVT retrofit include? im considering it ona completely different engine but with how little info I've found any tips would help, do I need an ecu from a vvt version of the engine? etc
this is just mind blowing stuff. having just built my first VVTi JZ and starting to tune it myself im amazed at how you've retro-fitted this and got it to work so well. What tuning software/ECU are you using?
of course, it's not like you're adding lift and increasing the volume of air. just messing with cam timing to bring in torque as early as possible and getting it to pull well at higher rpms, to help with drive-ability. If you can add high lift / high duration cams that usually sacrifice low end torque, you can help negate some of that with variable valve timing.
Have anyone actually done this with ITB? I know about the intake manifolds with valves in them, but not being done with ITBs (and will a half open valve equal a half length manifold or does it only work open or shut, due to air going slow both ways if semi open?) Calling the hive mind
@@FatbocSlin The mazda le mans 787b ran a fully variable itb setup. and have seen quite a few people copy it / make there own versions of it. Alot of bike engines run a 2 stage setup also. I want to run a 2 stage setup that alters length and diameter.
Now the question remains... will a "BMW-style" "DISA" system for varied runner length toggle make those vvt-i results progressively increase more (basically just a flap to change what path air takes, long or short)? Since logic has it timing and air-mass&speed go hand in hand (i.e; too much of one thing at the wrong spot or too little, changes everything completely)
Its a whole new setup. vvti requires 2 oil feeds to pulley. the 20v vvt only requires one, since just on / off. changing to vvti on a 20v would probably be harder than doing it on a 16v tbh, which is far from easy. but good thing is the 20v vvt setup gets you most of the way there anyway. most people will bin it when going to aftermarket cams, which is silly. far better to find a way to modify the pulley to alter the start/end positions or travel. the latter i would cut an old pulley open (they are a sealed unit) and figure out the best way to go about it
@Garage 4age or even just have the cam designed to sit the pulley at a better position for larger cams that begins to overlap too much. still definitely deserves some sort of write up. 20V pulleys are being discontinued so a retrofit is definitely an option I'm sure lots of people would look for
@@balakay1081 Problem i was starting to see with the 20v pulley with bigger cams. was the travel getting a little too much. even with start and end point setup best as possible. that was just with the 193b cams. something closer to 300deg would only need 15-20deg travel. stock 30 degrees would be way too much. hence why the cam manufacturers just put a blanket "will not work with vvt" on there bigger cams. not to mention piston to valve contact issues
Right makes sense then, been looking into cams for a 20v and noticed tomei do vvt up to 304 but was looking more into the 280ish cams. Definitely made me reconsider that if vvt is more negative than it is positive at bigger cam durations though. Would love to see if VVT-I still has a positive impact at larger durations like vvt for stock and slightly higher than stock duration cams do
Mechanical water pump vs Davies Craig PWM electric water pump test? no thermostat and over spun mechanical impeller at high rpm, so less water resistance should = a little more power up top.
basicly more advance for inlet cam will gain more power at lower rpm and the compensate lower power at higher rpm, are these situation will same for every 4 stroke engine?
@@Garage4age Did you notice any gains or losses going from blacktop/silvertop throttles to S65 throttles? 45 to 52mm is a pretty big difference, but I'm not sure the ITBs are a restriction on 1600cc motors.
@@inaNis_ modified blacktop throttles to 47mm plates were fine for 150kw. no change going to the bmw throttles. but stuck with bmw setup for other reasons. way oversized for the engine in this video. less than 130kw st 43's prob ok, 130kw i'd be running bt 45's . then definitely will get to a point where the need to go bit bigger again. but not many people will make that much power on 4age
same stuff applies, intake and exhaust runner lengths & cams. start with this video if you havent seen it already ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Ik7tK_zmZCM.html
@@Garage4age I have a follow up on that, ive noticed that 1uz vvt engines have slave cams and also vvt. are the exhaust cams also going in the wrong direction then?
@@gerrit2107 Haven't looked into the 1uz setup. but its quite possible the camshaft can spin inside the scissor gears. so the cam belt gear and the scissor gear on the intake side are fixed together to drive the exhaust cam. but the cam itself can rotate inside via vvti pulley. if could replicate that it would work right. but complexity just goes up another level. Something like 4e / 5e engine, that setup wouldn't work. as the exhaust cam drives the intake cam
Probably not. I thought about it when started on it. but ended up being far too complex, a lot of parts need to be modified and made. Not 100% ruling out a partial kit. but need to do a few revisions first and see how things go.
@@faris504 Still in early stages, while works well. i want to change a few things and do more testing. unsure if will make them to sell, its fairly complex
@@davidellis8434 You could make it to work. But remember VVTi needs more than one oil feed. You will need to drill and cut oil galleries into the head and cam and you will need to make an external block that houses the VVTi solenoid with the needed oil lines. If you are not an expert machinest then this is by far a no :( I might in the future look into this for my 4EFTE but I have the tools and know how.
Its not easy to do on 16v, 20v would be even harder to do, due to the way the existing vvt works. the vvt is ok, people just need to put the effort into utilizing it it when running bigger cams
@@Garage4age Would i be able to run vvt on a bigger cam than 194-c and rev higher than 9k on a 20v? ik the 20v is tricky to work around the degree timing because of the interference
@@seven7een993 they all become interference soon as swap cams. you will be able to use it on bigger cams. but will at least need to re index the pulley. which can be done to a point by using by using the toda dowel pin. combine with skipping a tooth on cam belt either way. the bigger the cams you go, will like less travel. so may find the factory 30degrees is a touch too much. since its just on/off you may have to find a way limit the travel to say 20 degrees. which is a bit of a pain since they are a sealed unit. might have to sacrifice a pulley, cut it open to see what the best way to do it is. maybe best to find the best on/off position with an adjustable gear then try make the pulley do the same
@@Garage4age Thats what I was thinking of doing is somehow modifying a vvt pulley, but in the video you mentioned that the jz pulley youre using is fully variable, does that allow you to set such limits like 20-25 degrees? Or is the pulley itself just adjustable like a fixed one but with the 30 degrees of vvt?
@@seven7een993 the the jz setup is fully variable vvti yes. has 60 degrees of travel. I have simply set it up so max mechanical travel in advance direction, is just before piston to valve contact. and have 60 degrees back the other way. once engine is running can set it anywhere in the 60degree window. with the 20v pulley and big cams you will likely want to do the same as far as setting it up. so when "on" (advanced position). its just before piston to valve contact. then have the 30degrees back the other way. I say this because you will likely run into piston to valve contact, before get all the available mid range gains from advancing the cam. you may get away with retarding the cam the full 30 degrees in the top end. but had to say without testing to see what it likes