Shane, you are a legend. The screen shot at 12:46 allowed me to solve the lack of comms from Zwift to the climb. I was using BT but not getting a response. Tried ANT as shown (looked for the FE value) and I'm all hooked up. Your videos have been instrumental in getting me up and cycling with my wahooligan set up. Cheers
at 13:44 we see the MAMIL in his artificial environment react to the new toy with a spontaneous, genuine, happy-smile going on :D ...now I can't wait 'til mine gets delivered to my LBS!!! I'll be up there before they can hang up the phone when they call to tell me it's arrived. Great vid, Shane; you're always perfectly thorough. Thanks!
Yet another well shot, well produced, informative review, Shane. Great to see the different camera angles and overlays. It really adds to the overall experience. Keep it up!
Great Video, really helped! BTW. I just set up my Climber with my KICKR. The rise and drop of the Climber in Zwift Watopia was spot on. I did not feel a lag.
Digging your cycling room. Looks so clean. Unfortunately I am not going to have a room that looks like that for a long while. Great review. I think you are getting better and better, but I know it takes a lot of time in post edit to mash all of the videos/audios together. Fantastic job. I am still learning the ropes in the RU-vid world.
Great video/explanation again Lama. I just got this and really like it. The benefit I'm getting is the diverse set of body position that helps for longer hours of indoor riding.
15 years ago when Computrainer was the hot setup we raced on NetAthlon. (Think 8 bit avatars!) Someone had invented & patented a climbing device that worked with the CTrainer. It was $800 at the time.......I almost bought it.....
Excellent as ever, like popping round a mates house to see his latest toy, then trying to work out if you can justify one yourself!! Now where's my piggy bank??
Another great video Shane. Would like to see you re-ride your TT course map you made a video of a few months ago, and see how it compares with the Climb installed.
Compatibility note: we discovered today that the Climb does not work with Trek bikes that have a recess in the fork for a SpeedTrap speed sensor (vs. in the chainstay for a DuoTrap speed/cadence sensor). On those bikes, the forks have a larger-than-normal diameter, which causes them to rub against the housing of the Climb as the it raises and lowers the bike.
Nice review (as always). Thinking about getting one as loving my Kickr trainer and Zwift but keen to add an extra element of realism. Love it how the instruction manual is quickly discarded during the unboxing!
I want to ask the following questions: Why didn't you do a full out sprint? Why do you use the block for the front wheel? And is it compatible with other trainers? BUT I actually read the comments before I ask questions, and seeing as you answered them all 20 times I'll leave you be lol Great review as always Shane!
G'day Mullens! (Legend multiple Aussie Champion for anyone reading the comments!) - A full out sprint - I didn't think it was all that important, it's not a power meter or a flywheel/trainer. It's held up fine in sprints in follow up rides. I'll do one on the next video I do on the Climb (likely with the Kickr SNAP). - I use a front wheel block on static trainers to take the pressure off my hands/arms/arse. Without steering, veering, and the changing centre of gravity you get outside with accelerations/hills, I find it more comfortable to jack the front up a few inches. Just personal preference. - The Climb is only compatible with the trainers that have full up/down pivots with the rear drops. So at the moment that's the Kickr17/SNAP17. Using this with a trainer where the bike is 'locked in' will eventually grind and wear hangers and dropouts, and people will get all grumpy. I'm sure Wahoo would love to have this compatible with all trainers, it'd x4 their ability to sell more.... but... it just won't work at this point with other trainers.
Thorough stuff Shane, really good insight into set up and how the unit performs. Yet to work my way up to even a Kickr yet, though it's firmly on the wish list (probably a Wahoo refurbished gen 1 mind), but perhaps one day I too can play with up and down buttons while riding my bike...
Well done Video!! I am looking forward to the rocker and Climb together.. I think if the rockers become more popular, hopefully The smart trainer manufactures will get smart and build there own rockers..
academyrulz ,integration faces at least one hurdle, that being the US patent owned by Kinetic for the Rock and Roll trainer. Maybe there are ways around it, but I think that patent is one reason we haven't already seen integrated rockers from other trainer builders.
Chad McNeese Kinetic only have a patent.on.their design.of rocker not a rocker trainer perse because a bicycle mount trainer is not a new concept or invention. Look at it like Sram.and WiFi or Shimano and di2, neither tech is truly innovative enough to claim.a sole copy write patent.
I have a climb and I generally like it. The biggest problem is that Zwift often fails to deliver the gradient info to the unit. I’ve done all kinds of experiments and there’s no rhyme or reason to when it works and when it does not. You often won’t know that anything is wrong until 5 minutes into a Zwift ride because they usually start at 0%. So as soon as you warm up... nothing. You have a $650 front wheel stand. 🤷🏽♂️
I am really looking forward the setup + rocket plate. cannot wait it! Great review. Fortunately, I am using neo right now. Kickr climb is useless for me currently lol.
I don't think the delay is fixable with firmware alone, especially with the smoothing. There's a radio delay (seems to always be 1-5s with ANT+, I find BLE is lower at least), a delay for the motor to actually move the bike to the target gradient, and then also a delay to smooth out the change (remember the demo at Eurobike didn't do any smoothing). The only real fix would be for the app (Zwift) to send gradients ahead of what's on screen and allow the trainer to queue adjustments to happen at the correct time for the hardware. Zwift told me they were working on a delay adjustment 2+ years ago but like many things it still hasn't materialised.
I have been advocating for a "Trainer Delay Offset" function from Zwift for over a year. Needs to be "smart" to account for different approach speeds, but this should happen to remedy the resistance and now grade change delays we get from the trainers (and are essentially impossible to eliminate).
For now I think Zwift should just have a simple offset and anything "smart" should be handled by the trainer firmware. That way the communication between Zwift and the hardware can stick to the standard open ANT+/BLE profiles and any extra features should be configured in the Wahoo, Tacx, etc, apps.
Yes, I'd be happy with a simple 2 second (or whatever is a good average) shift in Zwift sending it early. It wouldn't be "perfect", but it would for sure be better.
Thanks Motti Pikelny! We’re lucky to have a few old bikes to put on a trainer. They have 10-speed drive trains, have short cage derailleurs, and small cassettes. I wanted to replicate 15%+ grades without slipping to
Missing the major selling point entirely - engagement of different muscles due to the different angle the bike is on during climbs and descents - ergo, better training for the real world as you're building muscles (that wouldn't ordinarily be engaged on a trainer) on the trainer that more closely resemble real-world muscle use. At least, that's what they were touting at Eurobike.
Nice review Shane. Looks like there was more side to side motion using the Climb than when on the trainer block. Was this bothersome and did it have any affect on wattage? Thanks!
Didn't feel any different to me having the Climb on the front compared to a wheel. Only the ups and downs. No impact on power, well, none I could tell with that hour of power.
Shane Miller - GPLama excellent. They sure look interesting. Just a matter of time before there are more people making and selling them. Great potential for long rides. Big bunnings project. More than the bike stand
Stay tuned on that one... It's still early days for Zwift (and the others) who are figuring out how to give the best experience with one of these units.
Nice Work Shane. I am interested in your experience on the climb in relation to the screen height. Like you, I have a wall mounted TV and I am keen to know if you had any difficulty with neck strain etc when the climb changed gradient. This would probably be at the worst on maximum downward gradients. Is there an optimal height for the screen when using the climb?
I didn't have any dramas with the TV height. You won't be spending a lot of time at any negative gradients, or epic positive ones, so non issue in my books.
Hi Shane, I already posted this as a reaction to another Kickr Climb video. (Kickr) Indoor Trainers and ROCKR Plates so far so good, but the climb might turn out to be a problem for a lot of riders using it in the near future. Let me explain this. If you angle your setup into a climbing position, all the load moves back into the saddle. toes and feet get lighter, likewise irl on the road. Sitting in a climb, the steeper you go up, the more load moves back to saddle. Load in the saddle means the spine (esp the lower part with the discs, muscles and nerves, down to the sciatica) has to compensate this kind of load. IRL your bike is able to move in bidirectional positions, left/right and back/forward. Back and forward movement in a climbing position on the Kickr Climb is not possible in almost every setup I saw. So far only the new cycleops rockr plate gives this kind of motion. Unfortunately the risk for getting serious back problems and pain with the Kickr Climb is very high, cause the load for the spine will increase dramatically while climbing in a sitting position. To be honest, I am not sure, why no other orthopedician or physiotherapist came up with this to date. I won't even think about, how untrained riders and beginners in indoor training, with no suitable trained back muscles, will sum up after using the Kickr. Also I find it a little bit strange, that there is Zero health issue warning from Wahoo's side... Just my 2 cents! Beside that, have fun and ride on!
Interesting. I'll be keeping my ear to the ground on the experience people have with the Kickr/Climb combo. I'll have to study this more... off the top of my head I'd say a poor bike fit would be more troublesome than what the Climb does/can do.
I know you should also know some riders (mortly beginners) who turn out to get back problems esp while sitting on hills and when they start into the sport. I agree with you that IRL also bikefit and wrong position is a plausible reason. But it is also a reaction that they put load on there lower back even IRL and being in a perfect position. The question is, does it sum up indoor and how much is it, when the trainer is fixed back-/forward. Have you done some longer climbs so far, meaning by going up let's say Alp d'Zwift which is the longest possible climb? If yes, how did your back managed it? Did you feel any differnece?
I'm curious to know how stable it feels when doing sprint type efforts. It looks stable, but if you jump out of the saddle and throw down hard does it feel properly planted?
What I would like to see is the feature to use the CLIMB in ERG mode. I do my structured workout on my indoor trainer, however to my understanding there is no option to say like: "ok, I design a 4x4 intervall training with a slope of 15% and a wattage level of 320 Watts or a 8% slope at 320 Watts. Between intervalls go down to 3% slope at 190 Watts." I have to change it manually on the CLIMB remote directly. As far as I know it will only adjust if using a software such as ZWIFT. Would be nice to see more usability of the CLIMB in the ERG mode.
KICKR CLIMB is the top. The only thing I don't like is that it's compatible only with KLICKR trainers. I don't want to change my top trainer Elite Drivo to have the climb experience
To get the Climb to move the correct amount in Zwift, you can leave the difficulty at 50%, and just double your wheelbase length on the Wahoo App for Climb Setup.
I just bought this and am very excited to use it. I am struggling with the adapter choices. You don't mention the size you choose that I can understand. I have 700x25 tire size quick release non disk brakes, I see numbers like 12x100 with the Blue sticker and so on. This is my struggle. I. don't know which one is for me
i dont have the money so its not really an issue for me, but i was kinda dissappointed in seeing the speed at which it went up and down. Whats the max gradient it goes up to? It didnt look that steep.
Finally... Woohoo! Now when will the damn thing ship?! I've been waiting (and constantly wearing down my F5 key on Wahoo's website) since Black Friday... Glad to hear they're making sure to get it right for sure, but good lord am I getting angsty waiting for this thing! Also glad to see you can change the axle height AND the wheelbase since that changes what angles correspond to what - that was a concern I hadn't seen previously addressed. For a taller ride I know I think it'll only be able to go to about 16%, but I doubt he would complain about ONLY 16% lol. I'm also curious to see the desk solutions people come up with. Looks like the Wahoo desk works OK-ish, but not as well as before where you could slide it back over top of the hoods, and instead now it looks like you have to just stretch out every time. Lastly - you said pre-orders are open, but where? On Wahoo's website you can still only sign up for email notifications... www.wahoofitness.com/devices/bike-trainers/kickr-climb-indoor-grade-simulator
As long as the bars clear the desk it's all good. There's a few Aussie retailers who have pre-orders open. I won't plug them here... Google will find them.
Curious if they will be able to improve the kickr climb Zwift integration as you mentioned. I thought the Climb just takes the data directly from the Kickr, so Zwift doesn't even know about it. I hope that it can be resolved though! I am looking forward to this.
Is it worth it when specifically training for cycling in the mountains? I mean when cycling uphill your balance shifts and it’s hard to adapt to that when everything near you is flat
This is gonna flop IMO but its the first go at it. Looks flimsy at high grads. It would be better if they made a platform that everything sits on including the trainer. That way it would be more stable and can be used with any trainer as well as no axle problems. I do like the idea. I find on zwift its annoying not having any feedback on gradient. You constantly need to watch that silly map to know whats coming. Hopefully zwift can make that better at least. Having this will make gear changes an automatic response just like when your outside.
I agree that thing is ridiculous. Wouldn't a hydraulic cylinder running off an electric motor be much quicker and quiet. You could also do some sort of road feel sorta like the TacX Neo.
I didn’t post publically because Wahoo assured two weeks ago me that they had no other instances of similar catastrophic failure. But now I've seen multiple similar reports on Facebook groups. I’m 77kg and was on a flat at 200wkg when the belt broke suddenly dropping to full negative. I regularly sprint at 1000w and and am out of saddle weight forward on punchy climbs above 7wkg - had this happened during one of those instances I would have been injured. My replacement is arriving this week - I am very concerned. I should have looked more closely at the belt - I wonder what the rating is. Wahoo tech assured me that they had put tons of hours on dynamo but I am worried they could have understimated the literal bouncing that goes into the system in a sprint. I have 2000km + on the climb - mostly racing.
Hi Shane, thanks for the video, they're always great. I'm looking at the product at the moment. Have you had any information on the belt failing on the unit? Seems to be a bit out there across the net about it. Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the great info you put out.
Cool video. Question - it looked a little unnerving watching it move around. Obviously it’s locked in and the rear axle is locked too but did it feel any different from a wheel when actually in use?
I have watched you from the start and I have to say Cycling maven might get jealous soon as your subs are getting very close to his and might surpass ;-)
He's got a lot more on his plate than to worry about my subs. Looks like baby Mave is almost here. We also do different things, so there's room for everyone. SocialBlade is where you'll get all the trends/stats/history for social channels too.
Great review Shane, looks like a fun bit of kit but what about the supposed physiological benefits of riding at different angles engaging slightly different muscles, would a test with some pedal analysis software reveal anything perhaps?
Shane Miller - GPLama Yes good point, so substantiating the claim that it will "engage climbing muscles, and improve pedaling technique" could be tricky. TBH I'm not too fussed if it does or not just would be interesting to try and find out, I think most people are more interested in the extra immersion it brings and the possibility of a less sore arse after a long ride, so we just need you to do the mega pretzel challenge with it now to find out 😀
Great question. I was interested in the answer because I wanted to work on long, seated climb type efforts. This device would probably not help much with that at all, but turning a harder gear at a lower cadence might. So I got the Kura because its high resistance feels exactly like a constant uphill grind, but I feel I do need to prop the front wheel up on blocks to really hit the glutes and hammies like a on a real mountain climb.
Hi Shane - great review. So now we are removing front & rear wheel, just thinking whether I should then keep my old steel framed bike permanently setup...or are you better Zwifting on your good bike?
Bike doesn't really matter. As long as the groupset is reliable, the contact points are comfortable, and it's not a bending wet noodle of a frame that'll be horrible to ride.
Preference. There’s no steering or momentum indoors to take the static pressure off the hands, so I find the block more comfortable. Not needed with the Climb as it is moving around a lot and giving the hands/arms relief.
the use of rocker plates voids any warranties (according to Wahoo... as we would expect) But also, I don't know about the stability. Even in this vid, your limited out of the saddle stuff when climing - it looked a little wonky. I noticed you sat back down pretty quickly (which yes, yes, I know - seated climbing is better... :P), I "dance" quite a bit out of the saddle (sprints or climbs) & I hope this thing will be stable enough. I think a rocker plate would just amplify the issue. Your thoughts, Shane?
Jeff, can you provide data or proof to your claim of voided warranties? I am actively involved with rocker development and have seen nothing on that from any maker.
I'm currently dealing with a warranty claim on a Kickr Snap; I specifically asked the CS at Wahoo I'm working w/about rocker plates & included in my email from this rep was: "...as far as the use of 'rocker plates': we do not recommend the use of these with the KICKR, KICKR SNAP, or the upcoming CLIMB not only because most are homemade (therefore impossible to assure tolerances), but also because none of the units have been designed for the different external forces that would/could be applied to their product." Sorry, Chad; I love the idea of the rocker plates myself & had started toying with some different design ideas....now shelved. Like I said, I already had to send my SNAP back in for bad bearings after two weeks of riding!!! (VERY frustrating, hoping its just an anomaly) Also - one of my rides is a '17 Felt AR3; it has a 130mm rear axle width - I get a very liberal amount of side-to-side movement when it's in my SNAP (nothing to do w/the bearing issue - in fact I've been assured it's "within tolerances". However, it still seems odd to have about an inch of left/right tire travel on the roller... anyone else have this issue??)
Until Wahoo figures out an adapter kit for my Kickr2 this is useless... Plus, I can't see it making much difference in riding, NOT like a rocker plate would... just IMHO. Good review as usual!
Shane Miller - GPLama what are the limitations on using other trainers? The way it pairs directly with the kickr17? So it can't physically pair with a kickr2, plus there's the clearance issue?
Neo is quieter... and requires no calibration if you're using it as a power source. There's a ton of other factors too.... so what I ride and what others should ride are not always the same. Your call.
How are you using two televisions in your setup? Is there another bike that was pulled out of view for this video, or are you using two screens for one Zwift experience?
@16:20 it looks like you're well into the steep downhill (negative 13-14%), but the Climb still isn't down as far as it should be? If it's max is -10% ish, shouldn't it be bottomed out there?
That’s an interesting one - in the fe-c gradient data coming from zwift - down gradient values are exactly -0.5 * the up gradient values. Perhaps because the resistance drop off was too severe on the way down when it was 1 to 1. But it needs to be 1 to 1 for the Climb otherwise it would never level back out.
That... makes a lot of sense to what I've felt actually. Always wondered why I could still push downhill so hard in Zwift compared to usually being totally spun out somewhere between 30-40mph IRL. I figured it was just flywheel inertia vs the real thing or whatever. But the fact that during ERG mode or calibrations I could get spun out confused me then. I feel like they should change that anyways then, but I can see how that'd throw a wrench into things. For one, getting the 100kph achievement would be more difficult (unless turning the trainer difficulty to 0 just causes you to get 0% gradient when going downhill too???), and it would mess with racing times since descending certain slopes would cause more people to be spun out.
hngldr yes, trainer difficulty is a multiplier of 0 to 1.0 * the up AND the down, so 0 is no down slope which gives racers the same advantage that non-interactive trainer users get - MORE resistance going down and less likely to spin out, so more power.
Not everything is a problem to be solved. This adds more immersion. Explained in the video... but with that quip I suspect you didn't get through the 20 minutes. It's all good.
Shane Miller - GPLama I watched it all actually, was a good demo. My British sarcasm got the better of me. Maybe I’m just jealous because I’m using a Tacx Flux & can’t have one of these! Keep up the good work👍🏼
After 11 months of use mine just broke. I was going up the subway climb and standing when it hit 14%. A moment later I came crashing down when the grade simulator collapsed. Pretty big shock to my neck! Contacted Wahoo. A replacement is en route. Has anyone else had this problem?
Good review 👍... in your opinion which would be a better set up for a more immersive zwift experience.. tacx neo or kickr snap 17 with a climb?? (Both set ups around £1000 uk)
The climb for sure... as it moves more naturally, well, as you'd expect a bike to move on hills. But you're comparing direct drive to wheel-on, so there're two different things.
Llama! Thanks for the review! - I recently crashed and sprained both hands (a small fracture on one of my wrists) I was thinking of getting the climb to set it to max climb so the weight of my body is not so much on the hands while staying seated. Is that something I can achieve w the climb?
is there any point in buying a kickr 4 against kickr core if you already have a power meter with cadence and an additional cassette? and I also won't be using the higher power of the first, because I'm no pro :) I imagine that kickr core with kickr climb would be more than enough? why are you though using the kickr 4 instead of core? thank you very much Shane for all your hard work making high quality videos about smart trainers!
That’s up to Wahoo and Tacx. I don’t see how they can retrofit what it would take to be compatible in such a small space and maintain the required strength a direct drive needs. As for future compatibility with new products....I don’t expect that’s a priority. That’s just business.
Great review Shane! I'm interested in getting one for myself. However, I have a few concerns. At 16:33, when you started jumping out of the saddle, the fork was flexing. Another closer look at 17:10, your frame in general flexed laterally. I understand bike frames do flex, especially when riding on trainers. With the fork mounted, the flex is magnified. I'm concern about prematurely fatigue stressing the frame, especially when the frame has small defects, which could lead to delamination. Any input? Did you try to all-out sprint on it? If yes, how stable was it? Keep up the good work!
My take - You'll always deal with flex. It's by design on bikes. If you're ever worried about your bike, then get another one... one you can afford to snap in two and throw away. If you're letting concerns about delamination creep in... and it's having an impact on your training, don't use carbon. Not that I have any issues with using them and trying to snap them in half indoors (haven't yet), but if you're worried nail the issue and spend the time rolling with a smile. I'm not sure why people are asking about an all out sprint on the unit? I'll do one... but.... I'm not sure for what reason? Contact points are the same. It's stable. It's not a power meter or resistance unit. I'll do one... but only because people are asking. (if it's about jamming the front wheel into the ground, then that's incorrect sprinting form)
