Want More Power? (How to Respect Cycling Q-factor) 

Sssshhhh! Dont tell anybuddy- Stance width seems to be one of the most problematic bike fitting issue of them all, but no bike fitter is dealing with it at all! Had 2 bike fittings, complained about knee pains, but learned by my self what thereal problem is... I need wider stance width. Thanks for that video

Brilliant video. I’m one of the “duck walkers” you mention but it wasn’t until this year after a lifetime of riding bikes that anyone actually told me about Q factor, it never seems to be mentioned in most bike fits and isn’t listed as a standard sizing/setup option when buying a bike. I needed pedal extenders and using them has been a game-changer for me, I now realise that foot pain on long rides isn’t just something that happens to everyone! I just thought it was normal like feet getting sore if you’re on your feet all day. But I can now ride for hours without my feet paining me at all 👍

The VMO explanation @8:00 hits home for me, I always got super cramped quads after an hour when pushing hard. I'd never thought too much about it and just got on it with it. I bought some 16mm pedal extenders on a whim from ebay and my goodness what a change, comfort and power were up and VMO fatigue disappeared.

This video should be mandatory viewing for bike fitters. The bike industry makes the sweeping generalization that everyone has the same stance width, you can buy different length cranks but not different widths. In anything other than cycling, hip impingement isn’t a problem because as soon as the foot leaves the ground there is freedom of movement. With cycling the crank goes up and down - it really is the hardest case. I’ve built fitting pedals with lateral strain gauges to better understand what’s happening with my clients.

Very clear and easy to interpret. Well done!

Another great video. Probably the best I have seen on Q- Factor.

This is just what i needed to hear! Been struggling aftet going from MTB to road (outside knee pain). And never had issue in the mtb world! So going to try wider q-factor this, thank you!

Another great video, thx for sharing your experience and wisdom!

best video i have seen on this subject, clearly explained bravo cam

Great video, concise and anatomically accurate. Very easy to listen to.

Another Awesome video guys well done. This will help a lot of people understand why they have referring pain in there Hips & knees.

Great video and one bike fitters in general are in denial about. Worth pointing out; there's a serious shortage of Q-factor options for the road for more than 56mm pedal center-to-crank. The Shimano/Look road pedal center-to-crank standard is basically 52mm with some 53; Garmin and Favero power meter pedals can be set at 53 or 55, you can gain an extra 2 to 3mm on each side with a Shimano GRX crank and front derailleur (which can be combined with a longer pedal), SPD MTB pedals are 53 or 55, and coming in at 56 for the win is the Mark Cavendish-demanded long-axle Shimano SPD-SL. Then it's a big, big jump to the 64 or 65 of a Favero pedal axle for Shimano. And then in the low 70s we have a standard road pedal plus an extender, concerning to me in view of the Amazon reviews that discuss them breaking. In any case I just don't like doing things that only have a single vendor, so the Favero duo-Shi is out, and I'll probably do a 56mm pedal and see if I also end up needing to go GRX on the crankset. I've managed OK with 52 Dura-Ace, but it's clear from the fit done by my physiotherapist that I need wider; this kind of hinted at about 58-59 as being ideal.

Thank you for informing us, we should all tip you, just for sharing knowledge that took years to gather.

fantastic as always!!!

I remember when I got my first road bike, I spent ages trying to get bike fit sorted and the foot pain was agonising. Only when I compared the road bike and my mountain bike Q factor was it obvious there is a big difference in stance. In the end I used 20mm spacer blocks and combined with mtb flat pedals and mtb shoes (don't like being clipped in) so my feet can move around a bit - problem solved. Also means can put your feet in the centre of foot over axle position more easily than fiddling with shoes and cleats. The wider Q factor made it so comfortable, solved the foot and knee pain problems instantly. I wish this video was around back then, but thanks for making it, as I think there will be a few light bulb moments from the info given.

Update after 9 months: a wider stance worked for me Original comment: Happy to learn where the knee pain and the soreness of my abductors come from on my track bike. I thought they were just hyperactive naturally as they've always been quite bulky in proportion to the rest of my leg but now I understand I need a wider stance !

at 7 min 40 secs you perfectly describe the problem I have after longer rides ~ 100+km, I sometimes get cramps in those muscles you describe, I have room to go wider, will be giving it a go.

Great information. This is the next level of bike fitting. Have rarely had a fitter discuss this. But being a larger rider with duck feet it really makes me motivated to try the wide speedplay setup.

This is literally the exact video I needed. Down to the 36in waist and all the issues you described. Got 20mm pedal extenders and my bike felt instantly better. Thanks so much!!

Love all these bike fit vids! Just wondering if there are any vids of Neil explaining the causes and complications of both knees facing the same way (ie. one tracking inwards and one outwards?) cheers!

Extremely interesting content. I find my right foot tracks my right knee perfectly however my left leg has a tendency of coming down from the side

I use the Look keo 2 max pedals on 105 R7000 cranks and find it pretty comfortable with the cleats maxed out all the way in towards my big toe or arch side of the foot to push my feet out away from the crank arms. My feet / toes track pretty straight when walking around.

Can we get a little love for Andre Griepel giving up his free time for the on bike videos in this presentation?

I had knee pain for years despite several professional fits. Not one of the fitters even looked at knee tracking. I finally took my own video and discovered my knees make a V-shape at the top of the pedal stroke. I got 20mm pedal extenders, my knees tracked straight and the pain went away immediately. But pedal extenders have problems. They can break carbon cranks so they aren't recommended for those, and even some aluminum crank manufacturers won't warranty their cranks if you use pedal extenders.. So the cranks that can be used are very limited. Also, the extenders seem to loosen up regularly and it can be hard to make them tight enough to the crank arm and to the pedal. It makes another point of stress failure at the crank if they get even a little bit loose. Ideally the pedal manufacturers would all make longer spindles for people who need them, which would be better than using extenders. I use TIME ATAC pedals and I sure wish I could get longer spindles for them. Does anyone know where I could get custom length spindles for TIME ATACs? I tried Speedplays for a year but I don't like that even a couple specs of dirt prevent me from getting clipped in. The ATACs feel fantastic, I just wish I could get longer spindles for them. One more thought: the White Industries G30 gravel crank has a nice wide q-factor out of the box (171mm) but still has a standard road/gravel chainline. So, you don't have to use extenders with those. But currently there are no power meters available for it. I asked White to team up with a spider based power meter company, and I hope you all will ask them to also.

Very informative video guys. As a big broad guy, I've been using Speedplay Zero's with their longest 65mm spindles for many years and they solved a lot of comfort issues I used to have on standard 53mm on most road pedals. Wahoo promised a 65mm option when they acquired Speedplay last year ... So far nothing has happened. Sq Lab also make a +8mm +15mm spindle version's of their Road and Mtb pedals.

the chain stay on my oldest bike has a thumbnail-sized section of paint completely rubbed off from years of heel contact before I discovered pedal extenders. Oddly enough, I only need it for my right leg, which also has a slightly longer femur. I suspect the much more significant outward rotation of that foot and the cm in leg length difference are related. The extra 18-22mm of spindle has helped with both issues.

I wish I lived close to Australia, but the UK is a bit far to come for a bike fit! Already I have learned through watching this excellent series of videos that I have one leg longer than the other by +15mm (confirmed by a physio) adding a shim under the right foot has been a game changer. I now have full leg engagement (both legs) in a peddle stroke, more power, no knee tracking, no discomfort from pressure on one side of my saddle. Amazing, thanks for the advice given in these videos it has transformed my cycling to +400kms in one ride and in complete comfort and greater power.

Scrolled to this video with Q factor in mind. Have been mtb alot lately, we know they have a wider q factkr than road. Mtb shoes are Giro Chamber 2 that have cleats about 5mm off centre which increases q factor. Wben riding everything feels great but after inner thigh/groin is tender. Measured both bikes, mtb q factor including shoes is about 18mm

Dang, I disagree, but now I agree. Another great video, love it when I must think. Thanks brother for this.

I thank Graeme Obree for bringing q-factor into my biking conscience back in the 90's.

oddly feel the opposite I'm very muscular yet extremely flexible due to habit and history of various sports, was just looking into this but you've answered a few of my questions and i appreciate it 👍

for what it's worth, I find that a narrower Q Factor is also somewhat easier to spin (at least for me). maybe that's more of a mental thing? Also, lowering my saddle height significantly (15mm or so - set too high initially from a Bike Fit), made it easier to use standard width SPD-SL pedals, instead of the +4 version I normally ran.

Very interesting 👍 I’m always having knee problems and now I have installed the Assioma Shi duo powermeters in my M520 SPD pedals and my Q factor is gone about 10 mm wider, which concerned me a little, but after seeing this video I think it will be even better for me 😀

I'm a former national level powerlifter and track rider. i discovered by accident that I needed a wider Q-factor. I wore out my bottom bracket and replaced the crank/bottom bracket, and was disappointed that the one I ordered had wider crank arms. I installed everything and took it for a ride and was instantly impressed. I felt like I could put power down better, and when standing I was torquing on the bars less. So then on my race bike I installed the Ultegra wider pedals with a washer that extends my stance a total of 10mm. I could probably go wider, but this setup is not bad for me. I also ride my XC race bike, 29+ bike, and fatbike with no issues. I just needed a little wider stance on my roadbike.

Thank you for always giving us the opportunity to listen to your valuable stories. I have a strong toe out foot on my right side (about 30 degrees), so I use three 20mm pedal extenders attached(total 60mm). The cleats in SPD shoes don't rotate very large, so I cut and widen the slots to allow for a 30-degree cleat angle. However, my left foot is mildly toe out, so I was able to cope with a single 20mm pedal extender with a slight cleat rotation in the two slots of my SPD shoe. If you really have legs like mine, you should probably put up with flat pedals, but I was encouraged by this video. With three pedal extenders totaling 60mm, you have no choice but to ride at your own risk. I hope somewhere they will come out with a 60mm extender for one. Is it possible to extend the 20mm and 27mm exenders that you introduced by connecting them? I live in Japan, but if I have English language skills, money, and time, I would definitely like to visit a teacher.

So interesting

For bow legged riders would you say that they need a wider Q factor thanks for a great video

Thanks for the video. How would you know when you need to adjust the factor only on one side (e.g., only adjusting the cleat on one shoe)?

Haha I need narrow q-factor just because my feet are so wide :) i use track cranks on my road bike, as the q-factor is reduced (usually about 137mm). By allowing the inside edge of my foot to be further in, the centerline of my foot is more or less where it would be if I had normal width feet on a standard road crank.

I wish I had a Neal in Georgia, USA

great video! Steve Hogg put me on narrow axle speed play many years ago and I never looked back. I never knew I was in the small minority though, interesting. I do pedal with thighs almost touching the top tube as you mentioned I now have the new wahoo pedals which are wider so I have to run the cleats slid inward to match the position

Thanks for the great video! 🙏 My knees are regularly visiting the top tube... Now I got confirmation for what I always assumed to be the issue - my pedals being too wide. But like Neill said, there's only little space until me heels hit the crank 😅

Awesome video!!! By any chance Neill can do something on pelvic asymmetries/pelvic tilts. Would really like to hear his thoughts.

Hi folks, great videos, if I ever get my life organised enough would love to repay you by signing up to the Academy! Quick question for now though - have you ever seen a rider's position on the saddle change as a result of fitting wider pedals? I fitted some +15mm SQlab pedals to the gravel bike. My pedalling and knees felt fine BUT I found I was fiddling about more on the saddle again and my shorts seemed to want to scooch up somewhere quite uncomfortable! I also noticed the sort of forearm pain/elbow pain at the end of the ride that I've experienced in the past from a saddle that's tilted too far forward. I wondered if wider pedals might result in the legs supporting the upper body less and as a result the forearms taking too much weight? I've moved my saddle forwards 10mm but haven't had a chance to test it yet. Cheers

My motor mechanic makes pedal extenders in Sydney .

Keywin pedals come in six different axle lengths and are superlative pedals.

Any information about extender?

great video, i believe i also need a bigger stance. what i cannot find is the logical incremental steps. so i guess with SPD-SL cranks i can increase by 4mm and with the cleats i could get another couple of mm on my setup, but should i experiment with incremental mm or should i go 4 mm at a time or shoudl i immediately go current to max by crank_+ max cleat effect. how do i judge best the best setup for me

May i ask for help, i have the correct setup right now, it is (right pedal extender28mm ) for the left it is 21mm But left leg pedal extender is shorter 21mm (7mm shorter) so when i push hard i have pain in the quadriceps just above the knee in the left leg ,, it is because a shorter extender make my left leg be shorter? Should i raise the saddle just to compensate for the left pedal extender being shorter?

Video time on 6:33 mark. I have the exact same pattern - chopping on my right knee which is rising higher than my left knee and my left hips seems to lock. However, when i changed from 16mm to 20mm pedal extenders on both pedals to increase Q-factor, I experienced knee pains. Should I try 20mm (Left) and 16mm (Right)? It seemed that the left hips is not externally rotating well.

New to bikefitting in the US (Florida). Do you mind sharing the manufacturer you buy the bulk pedal extenders from? (20 and 27 mm). It's next to impossible to find a reputable one here in the states. Thanks Neil.

I use the 20mm pedal extenders but have trouble finding suitable pedals, because you can’t use Allen key fitting pedals with them, they must have a shoulder on the spindle, so that you can fit them with a pedal spanner. Cheaper Shimano road pedals have this but Look Keos don’t, they are all Allen key fitting. I prefer the Look as they have more float. I might try the SQ Labs ones.

Nice vid, I'm a duck Walker but sometimes my right knee touches the top tube, can i move the cleat in too? Thanks!

Last year I was able to buy long axle length Shimano Ultegra peddles, really wanted dura ace but pandemic issues prevented that. Narrow Q factor issues with tracking an knee considerably lessened, with this spindle size was available in 2011 when I bought my first trek road bike, all those years suffering 🤦🏻‍♂️😢

Great video. Any recommendations for where I can get the longer Speedplay spindles?

Hello, I have pedal extenders, will the pedal extenders affect the reading of the assiomas?

Great video! Will Q factor also affect saddle comfort?

Im tall. 194 cm or 6ft4inches. Im running Shimano XT trail pedals. Wondered if I could use a couple of washers between crank arm and base of pedal mount to get more q factor?

Great content, as always. Can you increase the length of only one side? My right knee and foot seem to always want to move out.

Have excessive cramping in my VMO after lowering my saddle. Is my saddle height too low? Ie. Hip runs out of room at the top of the stroke, knee moves outboard then brought back in by the quad as you described at 8:03. Have cleats all the way back and inboard (too move feet out). Saddle height was reduced by 4cm.

This is all super fascinating. I've learned a bit from you about where I stand on this spectrum. Are there not some things that just can't be helped? For instance, I have a Surly Ice Cream Truck. It is a fat bike. If I want to go pedal around a snowy lake this winter, how long is too long? How hard is too hard? I want to think that working on mobility and recovery will prevent issues down the road. But what do we know about efforts on too wide or too narrow of a q factor?

Question, I have recently switched from Shimano Ultegra 6800 to Campy Record 12s, experiencing some sit bone pain on my left sit bone/inside thigh on a saddle that's been comfortable for nearly 10yrs. The Q factors are different, 148mm for Shimano and 145.5 for Campy. Could this be the source of the pain? I've not experienced knee pain, just this weird pain in my left sit bone

I've been thinking over the last year of watching bike fit videos and making small adjustments to my fit that my Q factor is a bit too narrow. Neill saying if your feet tend to rotate outwards you might need a larger Q factor to clear the crank faces...me looking at all the paint wore off the crank faces in 6 months on the new bike. Yep, I need more space down there.

Cured my hot foot by moving the cleats as far inward as possible on my shoes, so widening my Q factor.

Is the saddle high change after a 20 mm extension Q factor?

Im considering using an Assiamo Shimano fit power meter which has a Q factor of 64 vs 54 on my current Shimano Ultegra which is comfortable. should I be concerned ?

Is it possible that my other foot needs longer axle and the other one doesnt?

Excellent video! One question, even with aluminum cranks, is it Okie to use 2 20mm pedal extenders on the same side?

I walk with straight feet but I do get muscle pain in the muscle running down the outside of the shin, is that to narrow?

Do you have any tips on how to work around limited internal rotation of the hips without adjusting the q-factor out? For track cycling you cant increase the q-factor to much since that will lead to hitting the track banking at low speeds.

Great vids👌 have one for painful elbows? Also should the remedy for a hip impingement mean we should always go wide on cleat/pedals?

Keywin pedal dude , axle come in - 3 mm, - 6mm , standard , + 3mm, + 6 mm, and + 10 mm , you can't go wrong , best pedals ever

I had a failed experiment with 20mm pedal extenders. After about 5k miles, I had one shear off; I just removed them all from my (3) bikes. Down the line, I'll just look at pedals with longer spindles. To be clear: the threads weren't stripped; it just cracked and broke off - - steel.

Anyone have experience pedal extenders can damaging pedal threads ?

Keywin Pedals.

Good stuff

Hi, I have a question connection to your video last month. Umm here in Philippines we mostly use hardtail as our all around bike like mine mostly used on roads and long rides and sometimes on a trail. Is the bike fitting slightly same with the road bike?

Is adding an additional washer or two onto the spindle a reasonable way to widen the Q factor? I frequently get cramps in my adductors and this is the first bike fit video I’ve seem that specifically mentions it. I don’t know if I would benefit from 5, 10 or 20mm of width so curious if trying a washer or two before buying a 20mm extender is worth a try. ??

Great video. Quick question, would lowering the handlebars down by 1 10mm spacer change anything that could cause some pain on the front of the knee?

So my right foot feels like its straight when I stand but its actually pointed out quite significantly. I have had a lot of issues with VMO cramping over the years. Should I try pedal extender on this side only?

Just an FYI - ISSI is no longer producing any new stock on their pedals. The only items still available are whatever the re-sellers have. I know because I emailed them about restocking on a certain pedal and was advised, they're "going in a different direction" with the business....?

do you need to adjust the saddle height (lower or higher) if the stance is wider? if yes, total of +26mm stance equals how many mm of saddle height adjustment? thank you

After countless try and error,plus years of knee pain,i find out i need to go narrower q factor.im using assioma pedal,so my solution is,dremel a new cleat position, basically narrower and rearward...sure enuff works like a charm,power transfer wayyyy better,medial knee pain reduced..but need strengthening session after years of bad position on the bike

How about long term knee bursitis sufferers ?

The more of your videos I watch, the more impressed I am. You see cyclists the same way I do.

Best to go with flat pedals.

Remember wider gives you more crank and frame flex.

The Look Keo pedals can only be removed with a hex keys only so they aren’t compatible with the pedal extensions (if you want to remove them). Once the Look pedal is screwed in tight to the extender you can’t get it back off again! Shimano pedals can be removed with a normal spanner so they aren’t a problem.

If I had any of these issues that Neale describes, I would most likely have given up years ago

I have a quite narrow pelvis and my waist is just 26 so I have to push my feet in. I pushed my cleats outward to the max but still it isnt enough. what should I do? I am currently using shimano road cleat system

Where can we buy them? Just had a bike fit and they recommend getting one.

The sad thing is that shimano new 9200 DA cranks go from 146(old) to 148mm q factor.. Many people need as much narrower as possible inc. myself.. Sarm is still on 145 thx god.

I believe the "Q" stands for "quack," e.g. how close you are to a duck. How many pedal washers can you typically get away with using Shimano pedals on alloy cranks? Two?

what would the solution be for a rider with one foot externally rotated and one foot virtually straight? My right inside heel (externally rotated) is always brushing the crank arm, but I don't have that issue on the left. Would I increase the spindle length on the right side only and leave the left untouched? or would that create even more imbalances? thanks.

If after a year of consistent training (4 to 6 sessions/week; 7 to 8hrs, mostly indoor) I feel my vastus lateralis (outer quads) are SLIGHTLY more developed and used than the other quad muscles.....is it normal or should I consider a change of the Q factor and how?

3yrs after when i stopped racing i got bigger, when i get back@riding i already figured out i needed wider qfactor and solve every discomfort. Does wider qfactor greatly affect aerodynamics?

I would love if you can do classes for old and new bike fitters so that they can get better at their job. why do bike fitters don't like to take improvement from guys like you ?

Расскажи пожалуйста о Q- факторе велосипеда и о Q-факторе велосипедиста. У меня физиологически Q-фактор 16 см. У велосипеда 20 см. Как уменьшить Q-фактор велосипеда. А какой Q - фактор у автора видео. Не у его велосипеда, а у самого автора. Напишите пожалуйста.

I really need a wider pedal stance. I don't think I can use 20mm though. I do have the issue with crashing my heals into the crank and there's a place where I've worn off the factory finish.

"Almost as important as slamming your stem" 🤣🤣