As long as those pedals have been discontinued / are no more produced, I think it is fair. It is a kind of second life for those iconic products and allows many more people to enjoy those effects close to their original form. There are so many clones that are not explicitly mentionning their 'source' of inspiration. This series is so close to the original that it is nearly an hommage to the original!!
I agree with this take. The only pedal in the WA lineup here I'd say is controversial is the Warm Drive since Lovepedal is still actively making pedals, like the Zen Drive. Fulltone was out of business when the ODD dropped, but now is back, so I guess they may want to reconsider that one as well.
I think this the gentleman’s agreement amongst amongst ethical pedal builders. It’s one thing if a company that went under long ago had circuit designs that are no longer available are copied, even if there’s no modern updates (100% model remake). But most builders will want to make a few tweaks, and it’s up to the consumer to decide if they’re cool with that (I’d trust Josh since I know how he’s updated a classic circuit, there’s going to be a sound reason) It’s another thing if a company that typically just copies a circuit to put it in a cheap plastic housing using inferior components is just known for being a company that provides rock-bottom priced clones. Often their only recourse for excusing it in court is that they’re copying the second or third mark of a circuit design that the original company is offering in a mark 7 or 8 version. For me, the latter alludes to Josh’s feelings about the company cloning to even use trade dress. You don’t have to use the artwork of the cloned pedal. The rule of thumb seems to be to name the pedal something kitschy that alludes to the original pedal’s name or what its circuit is infamous for. Yeah, the average 1-guitar owner ISO a cheap copy of the pedal he played over a buddy’s place would pick up a clone like those being discussed in the video. But for those of trying to live the dream, ethics matter.
I love this, when pedals start to reach the $7500 dollar mark ( Klon ) without reissues from the original maker, something needs to be done. Keep it up Warm Audio, I love my Centavo!!!
Agreed, but I don't like that, either. Though, I suppose it does elevate the Strat or Les Paul to that of violin or trumpet status, where, the design IS the instrument, one in the same.
@@bryanherward4679 It's all lame. I love Strats and I love Jimi but I don't want to build Strats and I don't want to fake that I'm Jimi. Influence and homage are one thing, just making Strats "the way you've always wanted" or totally mimicking Jimi's voice, playing, clothes, hair, y'know, but with more polished recordings or whatever--- why? I think Suhr make the finest Strats, for example, but what the hell for? Fender also makes a great Strat, and it's theirs. Me, personally, I'd just want to do or make something else. I've never gotten the whole gussied up copy market, finances aside. But still, my comment up top. The Strat or LP or Tele, SG etc. they've almost become The Instrument proper the way the violin or trumpet have. Surely there are variations between trumpet makers or violin crafters but, really, the design is settled and the design is the instrument. They've gone through minuscule changes over their long years. Sure, a Yamaha may look like a Stradivarius but there is a performance difference. I suppose that is an argument for a Suhr Strat. I just wouldn't want to make them, I'd rather make something... else. In terms of this pedal argument, if Fender wasn't making Strats anymore then have at it, but they are, in varying levels of price and build quality, so, for me, I'd do something else. But Warm Audio, make me a Foxx octave fuzz, because that's an instrument I still want to interact with and it's lost to history (hello, LM-1). Anyway, it's all a little gray.
@@mykhedelic6471 Really only meant to clarify the issue. I love Strats...but even those could be argued copied Bigsby's body...Leo just got it right the first time (minus the 3 way switch)...add the Tele and the P Bass...Don't have a problem with clones...they're old designs...Yeah Fender is still around, but Leo designed it...He used the same designs at Music Man and G&L. I don't really have a problem with Warm Audio..AS someone with over 100 pedals, I understand that cloning and circuit development is part of all of it. I try to minimize the number of Chinese clone pedals I have unless they have extra features. For example, the Mooer Elec Lady is a great Mistress clone and offers a micro case and an added mode switch. Since it's a vintage circuit, I'm not really torn about it even though EHX is still around...I'd own the EHX version if they made one. But, the OCD is personal. I hated the way the woke mob went after Mike Fuller and no one came to his defense. Pretty sure JHS even left him out of the Pedal Movie...I mean how can you tell the history of pedal s without Fulltone. Left a bad taste in my mouth. Don't want to see a rip off clone when the man was forced out of business just a couple years ago.
I think he did say he’d protect his copyrights, and he is (as I expected) restarting production in Nashville. TBH Fulltone has a strong enough following that the ODD isn't worth the legal fees to stop.
Yea, Fulltone suddenly just stopped and used prices of Fulltone pedals went up above retail price so i was kinda glad when i first saw the Warm ODD because now there was an new quality product avaliable as an alternative to overpriced used originals. I didn't buy because i still have a functioning OCD but i thought the market is healthier with a product like that. Mike Fuller said nothing about picking up production somewhere else, i mean this would have been big news for me.
When I worked at Fulltone in Culer City, CA. He had a huge sign over the employee water fountain that said "Fake workmans comp claims are illegal" Really boosted morale, hahahaha. True story.
It boils down to this for me: things that lead to more human beings discovering and exploring and playing music, (especially with other human beings!) is ultimately a net plus. Music and guitar have been the throughline of my life for 46 years and counting, and I KNOW I’m not the only one here who can say that music saved my life. Happy picking, pickers.
Did Fulltone go too far copying the Tube Screamer? No? Warm Audio didn't go too far either. Besides, the Fulltone guy is a jerk, so whatever. As far as their "Klone" goes, somebody needs to give the finger to the whole $600 phase shifter and the $10,000 boost/overdrive idea. Although it's probably not their intention. If people need to charge that much for those pedals and the companies aren't going to make them anymore, I see no problem.
Since mister Fuller did close his business and also did not manage to sell his company to anyone for a convenient price, I see no ethical problems here. Instead I find it very positive that nobody has to pay for the overpriced versions of the greedy resellers anymore. I see much more ethical problems with those guys tbh.
Im ok with it if the pedals are no longer being made or if the clone uses the topology but makes changes. Zendrives are still being made by Lovepedal. I just bought one.
Over the past two years I started to build up my home studio. In my search for the best studio gear at the best price, I came across Warm Audio. I decided to give them a try with one of their mic pre’s and mics. I loved the tone & sound I was getting from those 2 pieces of gear, I ended up buying more of their gear. Now almost all of my outboard gear and mics are all Warm. I had also moved to the Austin area about a year and a half ago, for work. I realized 6 months ago, their head quarters is like 10 minutes from my house. So, I reached out, and they were super friendly and invited me to come tour their world class recording studio. I ended up attending the “Produce Like a Pro” 3 day class that Warren & Joe Carrell held at Warm studios, last month. Such an awesome experience. I can say first hand, getting to hang around their headquarters, meeting a good number of their employees, seeing how the owners Bryce & Aubrey interact & treat people. They are an awesome company, with awesome gear! They have a life long customer in me. (I also own 5 of their pedals, & all of them are awesome!!!)
Best comment award goes to my guy @jasoncalderon5415 !! We loved having you and WOW I didn’t know you had 5 PEDALS! I feel like it should be a buy 5 get one 75% off or something. 😜😘
I started building to get hold of things I could not find or afford.....if I could have found a fuzzface enclosure or a colorsound enclosure I would have done so and got them as close as possible to the originals. There are arguments in Studio world about whether "in the box" DAW effects need an attractive "analogue" interface or the most basic GUI...they do the same thing....at my age I go the Analogue route...I have Reaper skinned as a Midas XL3 and Revox Transport and my vsts are pretty much emulations of real rack gear. It makes me feel comfortable and immersed having grown up with "the real thing". Instead of building one, I recently bought a Foxx clone...the green one....and I looked into flocking it. I guess I'm O.K. with this thing Warm are doing...they look the part and are affordable and quality. They are not completely duplicating and attempting to pass off counterfeits. I think it gets under pedal worlds skin because every body that ever built a kit thinks they should be able to make a living out of it.
I think warm audio and companies like them were the enema the industry needed. Its outrageous that such cool sounding gear is almost always unobtainium for non millionaires. These bits of gear sound as good if not better than the original gear they pay homage to. Due to better component tolorances & no component value drift over the decades of time the originals may suffer from. More power & sales to em. 👍
I've noticed that there is a lot of mystique around guitar pedals and guitars themselves. As a woodworker and someone who has made a lot of electronic devices, I don't see a lot of difference between two guitars or pedals. However, a lot of people may not, and some of the emotional response from people may be around the surface level copying, rather than anything logical about the company or there intentions. I have purchased several Warm Audio products and I like the products and the company. I think that as long as they aren't representing themselves as the actual competing product and they are open about their intentions (which I think they are) they're okay.
No, they haven’t gone too far. Making exacting reproductions of pedals that are no longer in production is totally fine. Buying an ODD doesn’t benefit Fulltone monetarily, and neither does buying a used OCD. Yes, guitar pedal land is hypocritical at times. It’s a niche market and it gets weird about stuff, but with it being a luxury market you’ll have that. But a good point was made, we want vintage Strat repros, we want plexi and tweed repros, why wouldn’t we want repros of legendary pedals? If the original makers aren’t going to do it (or whomever holds the equivalent of the brand in modern times, i.e. no one is coming down on Mahoney for their new Jordan repros) then someone is should. If Fulltone fires up their production again maybe warm should stop, but as long as the pedal is no longer in production, I think it’s more important to make it available and I don’t believe they are doing it with poor quality or poor intent. They’re just jumping in and taking the money where there is a good opportunity to do so.
Thanks for another great live episode! Just curious if anyone else is noticing the volume issue. It seems significantly lower than other videos on RU-vid and advertisements (while watching the playback). I’ve noticed this with other JHS live videos but forgot to mention it. I’m guessing it’s the live stream volume or compression settings because it doesn’t happen when you post pre-recorded videos.
I have to say I kind of admire Warm Audio. Their painstaking recreation of these pedals is impressive. I'm reminded of Tokai re-creating classic guitars back in the 70's. I see this as paying homage to the original creations.
To add to this discussion, a bunch of the warm audio pedals especially the Jet Phaser is reselling on Reverb higher than the original price. What Warm Audio has done is very similar to what Dunlop did with the original Dallas-Arbiter fuzz faces, where those 90's fuzz reissues are re-selling pretty high as well. They found a really cool niche, and because they are being so faithful to the original and not just trying to be a wholesale knockoff, I don't have any issues. (not that anyone asked me, or cares about my opinion).
Josh you are totally right about the just guitar pedal land thing, and that is really interesting and crazy, cuz when I think about it, Pul-tec are still making pul-tecs, warm are doing those, Neumann is still making the 67-87s and so forth, but ive never heard anyone say that those are an issues, cuz people who aren't rich studio owners, and just home recordists, want to be able to use and own that gear, and like me want it to look and feel the same too! as much as sound the same. I freaking love it lol!
U would never buy an ocd pedal because ocd impacts me personally a lot and I don't think it's a joke to be taken lightly. I don't want to think about it when I look at a pedal. So this is right up my alley!
But isn’t ODD similarly something that shouldn’t be taken lightly? I teach a number of kids with oppositional defiance disorder, and it’s a pretty serious thing….
Fulltone ( The original band) Warm Audio (Tribute Band) Poorly Made Clones (ok-ish small town bar band) Local cover band is great for a local night out drinking. They're weekend warriors that play for fun and want to make money to pay for their gear and a little extra spending money. Tribute band is great if you can't see the real thing. I can't go see The Doors, but I can go see The Back Doors and almost get the real experience. These players are serious musician's that want to make a living playing music and out of love for the original band. Imitation is the best form of flattery.
I wanted a Klon. But I won’t sell one of my kids to get an original one (yet). The Centavo looks like a Klon, sounds like a Klon, has the Jeff Beck mod. And it is affordable. Happy days👍👍👍
This has always been warm audios thing, they have started branching out into their own designs but their goal is to bring affordability to gear the bedroom musician might not be able to afford. I would suggest taking a look at the produce like a pro interview with their founder it's very insightful
First: GREAT episode JHS Team...I truly enjoy the content you provide, and your production value is off the charts! Second: I'm all for the clones, in fact I think it's a nice 'nod' to the person/people/manufacturer who made the original. I was fortunate enough to meet Daniel Scheinert [one of "The 'Daniel's" that directed the films 'Everything, Everywhere, All at Once', 'Swiss Army Man', & 'Turn Down for What' music video, etc..etc...] in Kansas City, MO in May 2023 for Destination Imagination [he was a former D.I. participant in the early 2000's]. He spoke to all of us on a panel discussion and said [and I'm paraphrasing] 'Borrow and steal from the creative person or people that you admire...you'll end up making YOUR OWN version of what you are seeking to make.' Lennon & McCartney 'borrowed' from the Everly Brothers, Little Richard, The Beach Boys, etc. Keith Richards has literally said "I've stolen all of my guitar licks from Chuck Berry". Chuck Berry stole all of his guitar licks from his piano player Johnnie Johnson [watch the film 'Hail, Hail, Rock and Roll']? So kudos to all you pedal makers, I thoroughly enjoy seeing and hearing what you come up with. Cheers! - Robbie T.
Back in days of yore when the internet was still in its infancy and file sharing was all the rage I decided to start building pedals. I already had a background in electronics so I went in search of schematics. Over a period of six months I had found the schematics for just about every pedal there was out there (this was before the boutique market kicked off). On top of well known pedals I also came across those old school underground books (typed on a typewriter with hand drawn schematics) that were bursting with home recipes, creating weird and wonderful effects you’ve never heard of. I still have them on hard drive somewhere. A cornucopia of sonic wizardry.
The line is Chibson. If someone clones a Big Muff and slaps the words "Big Muff" and "electro-harmonix" or "ehx" or even "elektro-harmoniks" on it, then they've crossed the line.
There's a similar debate in the synth world when talking about Behringer. Behringer started making synths that are either out of production or super expensive, but it's kind of extended to modern affordable synths like some of the lower end Moog stuff
Really thoughtful discussion. I think the main thing is that no one is going to buy one of these Warm clones and be fooled into thinking it was an original.
I think what they’re doing is great. people want products they can actually get/buy, so if they make high quality clones that do exactly what you want them to do, by all means, make them and buy them.
There is one part of the equation that I think is overlooked. Brand Loyalty. Lets take the Bluesbreaker for example. There are billions of Bluesbreaker clones out there, including JHS Morning Glory. Yet the internet went NUTS when Marshall Re Released their own. It LOOKS like the pedal and its from MARSHALL, it must be exactly like the one JOHN MAYER has. Now is that the truth? Is the re release identical? Or is it a case of "The original sounds better because......." It all comes down to what you care about. How it LOOKS or how it SOUNDS. Josh even says the trade dress is his brand. But seriously, is a knock off Morning Glory without the JHS branding ON it...a Morning Glory? When you look at a Boss knock off and it doesn't SAY Boss on it, are you really happy to have it?!? I think the perfect example of this is the Silver Sky. HOW many guys buy a Silver Sky and get disoriented looking at the headstock? Why didn't PRS go full on NUTS and use the Fender Style headstock?! Because the PRS headstock is ITS trade dress. You see THAT and you know its a PRS. I dont care what the pedal looks like, if it doesn't say JHS on it I am not going to mistakenly think "Oh thats a JHS pedal. Same with the Warm Audio Stuff. I know the ODD is not a Fulltone OCD. Its a masterful clone of one. I will always wonder "Is the sound of a V1 OCD better than this?" Because Mike Fuller invented it. His was the original. There is that question of "How far from the original is a clone". But I wonder. If JHS put out a Limited Edition Morning Glory and all that was changed was it was put in a Black Box with MORNING GLORY in blue lettering and JHS embossed on the bottom. How fast would they sell out?! How many people would snatch them up because it would now LOOK like they had a Marshall Bluesbreaker on their pedalboard?!? Who would be at fault? Josh and JHS? Or Marshall for screwing around and not making them accessible to EVERYONE for a decent price. Plus we all know Josh put his own spin on the MG. So even in a cloned BOX, the Morning Glory is not 100% the Marshall Blues Breaker. I love what Warm Audio is doing. I am excited to own all the pedals. But I would NEVER look at someone and say "I have a Vintage Klon on my board....or a Zen Drive, or a V1 OCD" I would be like "I have some really great Clones of some awesome vintage pedals....because I cannot afford or find the REAL ones" Same way I own a Gibson 1959 Reissue. I cannot AFFORD an 1959 Les Paul!!
I agree, even though it's against my practical interests as a broke musician who cares a lot about how stuff looks. I think when it's a pedal like the Foxy that's been gone for a long while, it doesn't feel sleazy and instead like homage.
I think the reason people react different about guitar pedals vs studio gear comes down to price. A budget version of a “brand” guitar pedal might save you $10 or $500 dollars, but a budget version of a rack EQ or Compressor will save you thousands of dollars. This goes straight to availability. Yes, you can get a stereo pair of your favorite rack compressor brand new for $8000 and there’s no shortage of them. But if you’re a bedroom producer or a hobbyist, is that really “available”? That price is so out of reach for some people it might as well be a million dollars. So if someone can some along and make this thing for $1000, now this customer is served and not many people in the audio production world are going to be mad about that. Nothing is stopping audio companies from having their own budget brands to serve this market, BTW. I think Warm Audio is kinda unique in that they aren’t making “cheap” versions of things. They are making quality products for the most part and their prices I’d describe as “competitive” rather than cheap or bargain.
the outcry definitely feels hypocritical, I mean amps, pedals etc. have been cloned digitally for kemper amps and such for years without people complaining
I think the reason trade dress is more of an issue with pedals than something like a microphone is most people don’t care about the look of a microphone. When you see a microphone it takes a second to realize what kind it is, assuming you know anything about them. With pedals it takes a split second to know what pedal you’re looking at. I really don’t care much at all about it. I see all these old pedals going for ridiculous prices and they were meant to be played, not as an investment. If you don’t want your pedal cloned don’t stop making it.
Hmm, I disagree. Neumann is quite protective about the look of their mics and know that they are iconic. And I believe Neumann sent a cease and desist to Warm about the first U87 clone they did.
I was yelling at the TV during the Lucky Cat discussion. You guys went waaaay off topic with the feelings thing, but it’s a great question. If Warm cloned a JHS pedal no longer in production, and they sourced quality original parts and executed it extremely well, and even nailed Josh’s standards for trade dress and tone, then I’d be good with it. Because they executed well on something that was in demand and Josh has chosen to no longer make. Even if it were my own product I’d feel the same, because I chose to move on to other things.
II have a lot of $25 od/dist clones of something. A couple of them are my favs,. Wish they looked like the originals because if I were sure what they cloned I'd buy it.
I think they're just fine. That these are as close as possible but still OBVIOUSLY Warm Audio, you know we are all simply fans. If I had an original mutron phaser, it would sit safe at home and I'd still jam the Warm Audio one. Acceptable risk of damage on a reasonably priced clone. If only you could have a reasonable Roland Space Ecco
JHS made a pedal that sounds just like my Civil War era Big Muff, and I am thankful for it. However, the 2 units don’t look anything alike, and the JHS can be powered off a power brick, has better switching, etc. Cloning something long out of production down to the looks seems kinda quirky and fun enough, though better I’m sure a better package could be made. Now, in the case of the ODD/OCD, that’s surely a bold move and seems ripe for a lawsuit.
Since Fulltone is no more, I don't think that Warm Audio went too far. I mean the pedal makers went too far way before Warm Audio. Centura makes Klon clones that look exactly the same as the original. Almost every tube screamer clone out there is green (thousands of them). Amplified Nation makes Dumble clones that looks nearly identical, just to give a few examples. Btw i don't own a Warm Audio pedal so my opinion isn't biased, just wanted to share how i feel about it 🙂
They went too far.For example, JHS and EHX have created pedals based on other pedals but they never copied the look and often added their own spin too. Josh even created a pedal that could have been made by EHX back in the day and did such a great job that ended up being a collaboration between the two brands (talking about the Lizard Queen, of course). There's nothing wrong with doing tributes, being inspired etc but being truly original and creative should be the main goal.
Filthy Speech is Sacred. It is not a moral question, it is a Physical Law. Y'all can take heed for prematurely depriving yourselves of the service that Mike Fuller was providing to the peoples of the world. Or not. Science.
Obviously with microphones and studio gear more generally there won’t be as much of a pushback on cloning because guitarists are… special people. This dynamic that JHS points out is really the difference between studios having to be more “proper businesses” then the guitarists who get to be more of the stereotypical band types.
I went into a guitar shop to buy a Charlie Brown a year ago and saw the Foxy Tone Box, immediately had to try it and then when I heard the price I COULD NOT believe it. I never EVER thought I could get a Foxx tone machine in my life. It also paired nice with the CB so I left with both! This is 100% true
This happened to me 2 days ago! Well, more like I went in to try the Legends of Fuzz, which they didn't have, but I saw this fuzzy orange box in the case and had to try it. After spending 3 hours in the shop, it beat out 5 other fuzz boxes they had. This thing is amazing.
As long as clone pedals have specific labeling and branding that clearly distinguishes their products from the originals, I got no problems at all. I won't tolerate clone Nikes that look identical to the originals in every way - that's outright IP theft. But if, for example, the logo has a hook on the end of the swoosh and the label / branding name is Nuke, I see no issue.
I’m betting the ODD sounds too good so I’ll probably stick with my Ultimate Drive for now. Looking at their recording gear, I may be a little closer to building up my studio stuff a little faster than I’d expected.
I own a Warm Audio WA273-EQ and I really like it. I have no point of reference of a real Neve preamp, but I have used this one to record plenty of podcasts and the sound I can get from them is phenomenal. I know this is just spoken word, but it does sound really good. In terms of quality, Warm Audio does have my personal backing. That being said, I really don't like to see clones of pedals that you can still buy. As a business owner, I would really not want to see my own products, along with my marketing and visual design, copied by another company who is also trying to undercut my price. But at the same time, I really want to buy one of those Centavos.
WOW, at first glance, I thought that was a OCD LOL, but it's an ODD. Honestly, if the pedal sounds good and no copyright infringements and being broken, I think it's great. That being said, the ascetics and appearance of some pedals is more iconic than its actual sound it produces. e.g. One mighty not care of the ODD looks like an OCD or not, but one would probably get a thrill out of a KLON looking like a KLON. I own the warm audio version as well as a KTR, both are great. My preference on the entire KLON thing is the JRocket Audio Archer silver. I love that pedal.
Imagine for a moment that this is the first episode of JHS that someone saw. I believe this could be one of the most important videos JHS has done. I love what WA is doing. I hate what DemonFX is doing. Guitar pedals are not really all that important in the big picture as far as ethics go but, any topic that generates ethical questions is good for 'The Game'. Josh and the crew at JHS did not have to make this episode and yet they did so. This is what ethical business practice looks like and I respect them even more if that is even possible. Thank you Josh and crew.
@fulltoneeffects all Michael Fuller pedals were hand made I have both his uni vibes that were hand made and 100% Era correct..now selling on the used market up to $1,000 depending on the seller I have a video of my gear on my RU-vid page
What I respect about Josh is he mentioned he took some pedals out of production under his name that was a copy of other brands while it wasn't available but discontinued it when the original came back into production. Unless a circuit or design is patent protected really its anybody's game. Personally I wouldn't want to be looked as a copycat brand which Warm Audio might be if they keep doing this. Hopefully they can make their own designs that'll be much more known for instead of copying others.
I love that there are amazing new and old pedals from boutique builders, but that comes at a cost. I also love that for those of us who either have limited access to boutique pedals, or can't afford them, there are more affordable clones.
I agree there's a double standard. The entire industry is built on companies cloning or slightly altering each other's work. The great majority of companies get a pass but then people single out Warm Audio or JHS for doing what the whole industry has done for 40 years
False equivalency. The “entire industry” is not stealing trade dress, breaking the law, & reproducing part for part & design element for design element ripoffs, of in production US made pedals, in China.
@@tacdoc8736 the Tube Screamer is a slightly modified Boss SD-1. And how many Tube Screamer clones are in green boxes? How many op amp distortions are just slightly different from a RAT (or not different at all)? It sounds like your awareness of the industry's history (and present) is limited
This happened to me one time before I had been in the guitar world long enough to really know anything. I had like just joined Gear Talk P&W and etc. and I was looking at everyone’s boards and I saw a lot of them had a Timmy. So I googled “Paul C Timmy” and I get results of the usual like $120+ or whatever it was at the time. And then I saw one for $50. I was either in high school or my first year of college. I was thinking man I really wish I could afford a Timmy, and then I see the one for $50 and I’m like finally! So I buy it, and I realized it was a semi-sketchy website, but I’m like okay whatever. I get it, and it looks just like the real thing, at least to me who was not extremely familiar. I put it on my board and I’m like wow this is great! And then a couple months later it breaks and I’m like wow that sucks. I didn’t realize until later that it was a fake from some Chinese seller. If I would’ve known, I almost definitely would’ve bought a real Timmy to replace it, but the fake one had given me the wrong idea about it, so I ended up with something else. This is when the trade dress thing has gone too far. If I didn’t have the option of the fake, I would’ve just saved up, got the real one, and probably would still have it today. (I ended up with the MXR version anyways but still)
What a great video, and conversations. You are so right Joshua, there are facts and opinions. Everybody has an opinion, great! Have debates and conversations and discussions, maybe you can agree on something, maybe you can respectfully agree to disagree. Feelings are also very personal and subjective. Respect them as well as long as it’s not expected to see the feelings as facts. Good stuff, I also think that warm audio has the correct factual criteria for klone a circuit with the look & feel of unavailable pedals. So many people want a Zendrive and a Centaur and can’t afford them on Reverb. So making the exact Kllone of that pedal with look & feel is smart. Doesn’t hurt the OG creator, doesn’t hurt a business & employees ((good argument from you 36 families…) and I want that Centaur look on my pedal board right? It’s so iconic. I still haven’t bought the WA Centaur though because I’m waiting for you to announce your improved Centaur. I know you promised Bill not to build the Centaur (Klon) if he every started making them again etc….. Bill never really has….. you could have started building your Centaur over 10 years ago but didn’t because of a promise you made (not valid anymore anyway). I hope the announcement 📣 is coming soon my dear ToneCrafter: what’s happing to the deep marination of those two unique pedals in that old oak barrel? Since 2022🎶??? Yesss the JHS Moonshine and the Centaur to add that extra warmth and wood overtones for the new and best selling Double OD ever: the @JHSpedals #DrunkenGoldenHorsie 🥃🥃🥃🐎🐎🐎@jhspedals coming from the mind @joshuaheathscott 🙏 give us an update 😃♥️🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶
I think they are actually hurting their own brand. They clearly make good sounding pedals but instead of building their own brand they are just promoting other brands designs. Bit of an own goal.
Is there anything to stop another company bringing out a Mutation Phasor that looks identical to the WA one. Have they copyrighted anything about their own pedals??
We live in the era of clones, anyone who is still upset at people cloning pedals probably needs to grow up as pedals have been cloned almost as long as there were pedals. Youve only got to look at fuzz boxes from the 70's and 80's as thats were I think it all started. Of course things really ramped up when the Chinese got into the game with companies like Behringer and Joyo etc and now there are as many pedal companies in China as there are in the rest of the world, or so it seems to me. And personally Im very grateful as Im not a professional musician and as Im now in my 70's yes I remember the first fuzz boxes and Im not in a position to find 3 or 4 or even 5 hundred pounds/dollars for an overdrive. So I applaud companies like Behringer, Joyo. and Warm Audio too, even though their pedals are a little out of my reach but they are still reasonably priced considering all things.
Pedal land is like the local artists markets where there are a heap of traders using the same patterns/material to make their version of fashion. They get pissy when someone 'copies their design' but they themselves got it from somewhere. If a trader leaves that market, then the other traders will sometimes fill the void left. If you vacate the space or stop making a certain product, you can't complain when someone provides what the customer wants. I love great graphic design & smart user interfaces. I feel if you can't at least TRY to do your own style, then it feels like you're making something with less love put into it. On the flipside, I completely understand someone that loves everything about the original pedal (including aesthetics). Ultimately, the market will decide what they want.
Great episode Josh! You covered the trade dress aspect, and the similarity of the electronic circuit, but one thing you didn't address fully is where the products are made. I am pretty certain that the WA pedals have to be made in China. Demonfx and LYR pedals are made in China, so are Warm Audio pedals I'm assuming by the price point. Warm Audio is better at making the product look good. They really care about nailing the design asthetics. I personally am particularly proud of fabricating the electronics and the metalworks in my factory and giving people careers that live in my community. I don't care about Demonfx's many copies of my pedals, because they don't look very good and their customers are not my customers (good for those customer too, I hope they have fun making music with a sound effect I inspired), and lastly, they most certainly don't sound as good as my creations. I love most copies of my work or ideas. Many people find that odd, I like it when I see my ideas in the wild, makes me feel good, I must be on the right track. There's a Kelly Kate Anna copy of the Keeley Katana that I just Love!!! I would go so far as to say his build quality is better than some of the ones I made. His pedal is gorgeous inside and out. The Katana is a unique, albeit simple, circuit that I thought about, reasoned about, toyed with the filtering and gain for 2 months or so, but spent about 2 hours on the graphics, tops! :-) I'm a little more sensitive to copying the exact circuit, I like to mod things. That's because I'm an electrical engineer. That's where my focus is. I see a pedal as, "what sound effect does it produce and by what means electronically". I have a bad problem of considering the trade dress, or looks, last. I've learned a lot from Josh Scott over the years, and one thing that I've re-learned from him is that people buy pedals in particular, with their eyes, before their ears have even heard it. Just like WA was saying, he plays his amazing Nash guitars with his eyes as well as his hands. He's inspired continuously by the looks of the guitar. Wurdz are Hard & Better Looking is Better Sounding.
They have to look like the original pedals because for some people it's maybe more about nostalgia than obtaining a particular sound, experiencing the old product without the prohibitive price and unobtainability.
Clones are AWESOME! For example, I did a clone of a Tim Escobedo “push me-pull you” driven by Hemmo’s “Bazz Fuss.” I’m calling it “The Wizard of Green.” Because these are both well-known (and publicly available) DIY circuits I’m of course not going to claim design credit for myself (I didn’t even bother to alter the “gain” knob on the push me-pull you to do anything significant…I just gave it a nebulous name like “feelings” and left it in there…)
People, like me, want to have a good sounding pedal, want the original but can't afford, so... It's fantastic to buy a very good pedal like the Originals, sounding good and looks like the original and they can afford. Simple, but companies refuse to accept this, like guitars and amps. I have the JHS Morning Glory because i can not afford the original Marshall BluesBraker, but how i buy the Marshall BluesBraker Reissue because is affordable. I have the Warm Audio Centavo and it's great because i can not afford the Clone Centaur!!! Best regards from Portugal
I'm in the ethically conflicted camp. They definitely nailed the trade dress with what might be considered misleading accuracy. It would have been nice to see them try and put their own spin on it more like an Archer/Klon kind of thing, but I also understand the appeal of owning a replica. The Eames lounge chair comes to mind in the furniture industry. It's such a classic design and there are countless replicas and some are quite good for what they are. And the reality is many originals are simply unattainable for lots of people. Same goes for Behringer and the replica synths they're making these days. It serves a market and I think as long as their not trying pitch is as an original, and especially with out of production stuff, I think it's ok. I honestly think if someone really wants a Klon and can afford it they'll get it even with the plethora of close enough clones.
Yeah with limited releases, gear that's expensive enough to be out of reach of the hobbyist or working poor and/or out of production, I'm all for it. Clone that. People with the want and will, will buy the original. Good luck to them
@@ANWEsuigeneris It can be, but I'm not sure if any of these would qualify since it seems they're all out of production products. And they'd need to prove that a normal buyer would be confused thinking they're buying the other product. As Josh mentioned though they'd probably get a well deserved C&D letter though from any active company.
I love all the warm audio stuff. The klon clones are amazing, and because they look like the real thing it makes it even better. It makes things that should be affordable anyway available to normal people.
I have issues regarding the trade dress situation. I am okay with reissuing pedals that are no longer in production or remaking pedals at an accessible price point, but when the trade dress is so incredibly similar, it is perhaps intentionally misleading for the consumer. For those of us who are a bit older, this may not be an issue, but for a kid starting out it may be. But, again, if I was a kid, I wouldn't care...if I can get the sound at a reasonable price point that is a product that is actually decent quality, I would go for it. I am conflicted, as this message shows rather clearly. :)
I had an original Mutron Phasor II and it was the best sounding Phaser I ever heard.... until it melted down. I'm really tempted to try the Warm version.
I just received my Mutation Phasor II a day or two ago and WOW does it sound amazing! My only issue i have is the rate, 1-2 keeps it subtle but afterwards it goes too fast I believe if these pedals were made to pay homage to previous pedals and replicate schematics and sounds to dedicate itself to older models before it then it should be fine as they’re not technically plagiarizing other pedals (besides the OCD)
I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. In fact, I see this as marketing for the original pedals, more than anything else. These pedals keep the legends alive. Say you bought an ODD today, and at some future point Fulltone was reborn and started producing the OCD. Most people would, who could afford it, would go pick up the Fulltone just to have the same basic pedal from the original source. Just look at EHX and their reintroduction of the classic Big Muff pedals. There's no reason anyone would buy one, as there's been clones done to death of each circuit variation, for a lot less money. Yet they continue to sell as much of that interest has been kept alive by other manufacturers. Free advertising for decades.
I've had a Dano French Toast Octave Fuzz for decades. I LOVE the sound. I boost it through a stock Boss SD-1. Makes me believe I could do something like Jimi.
Do you boost the SD1 into the octave fuzz or is the fuzz first before the OD? Everything I hear says fuzz has to go first. But I really like a tube screamer going into a fuzz pedal.
I love the Centavo! I got a $50 gift card from Guitar Center for Christmas, so the pedal cost me under $150. I can't swing $8K on a Klon Centaur right now. Since these pedals aren't in production anymore, it's great to have a close alternative that looks and sounds the part.
I think one reason people have such stronger feelings over this issue regarding guitar pedals, but NOT studio gear, is because with studio gear it happened so much longer ago. Neumann mics, for example, was birthed out of the WWII split of Germany as a country (they were derived from Telefunken) and initially Neumann was basically creating the same models that they had made when they were Telefunken but just on opposite sides of the Berlin Wall. After the Cold War ended people rediscovered the similarities of these classic tube microphones. They had different names & model numbers but were so similar. I also read an interview in TapeOp with the founder of Peluso microphones. He talked about starting his company with federal grant money under the Clinton administration during the big 90’s recession. He said he bought out of production classic microphones and reverse engineered them. Then put ads in music magazines to sell his creations. But guitar pedals - particularly the movement toward boutique manufacturers - have essentially grown in a parallel timeline with technology such as social media. It was a key ingredient to the growth of the entire industry! Makers and builders connected directly with their users, just as this show has done. There is much more personal investment from followers/users than with pro audio. I mean, I knew who Rupert Neve was, but I don’t know any of the guys who designed API consoles or Neumann mics. But I know Josh from JHS and Joel from Chase Bliss.
For me , there a few classes here. (1) Boutique pedals, which MAY have a circuit inspired by an existing pedal, but which has been modified by what the pedal builder believes is an improvement. (2) Replica pedals, which duplicate the circuit and the harken closely to the trade dress of the original, but the original is no longer is production. (3) Clone pedals, which are similar to the replica pedal, but must have some clear change in trade dress or they move into category 4, which is (4) Counterfeit pedals, which seek to profit from the trade dress with cheap copies. Counterfeits, like the DemonFX brand, should be illegal.
