Was Brigham Young involved in the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Ep. 78 

Being a human is hard. My heart breaks for the horrors of this act. "There is no fear in love. For perfect love cast out fear. Because fear hath torment. He that feareth can not be made perfect in Love". Love your neighbor, guys. Because we can all be monsters if we forget that.

Everyone of those pieces of crap that committed those murders should be burning in hell!

We in the Lee family know that Mr Bishop changed up John's confessions book. The money from that book was supposed to go to John's family but most of the money went to Mr Bishop

I wonder, how could other Mormons be ok living side by side with people who committed that crime? Why wait for federal government for 20 years to start a trial? Young had all the power needed to deal with the situation.

i’m not sure if you’ve already done a video on this but do you think that you could do a video on what it means to “take the lord’s name in vain?” most people believe this to just be cursing but I think it’s different and wanna know the church’s stance on this

How do you explain Brigham Young ordering to destroy the memorial the US troops made honoring the people of Arkansas slain at Mountain Meadows? This memorial was made at the site where the massacre started. Why did Brigham Young want this memorial destroyed? ... could it be perhaps that he thought the people murdered by the Mormons deserved their fate? I would say it is highly likely Brigham Young ordered the massacre in retribution for the death of Apostle Parley P. Pratt who was killed in Arkansas the same year 1857, that the Mormons perpetrated the slaughter of 125 inocent men, women and children. The only people the Mormons spared in this mass murder were kids 7 and younger because they thought they were too young to be able to “tell stories” about the slaughter of their families which they witnessed.

What do you make of Brigham Young telling the Bureau of Indian Affairs that Paiutes massacred the Baker-Fancher party?

You assert that Brigham Young did not give the order to attack the Fancher train, and that he had no knowledge of the attack. That is completely false. Mormon historian Juanita Brooks wrote this in her 1950 book on the massacre: "Jacob Hamblin.....decided to take a group of the chiefs to Great Salt Lake City for an interview with the great Mormon chief, Brigham Young. His handwritten diary, as yet unpublished, says: 'I started for Great Salt Lake City in company with Thales Haskell and Tutsegabit...He had felt anxious for a long time to visit Brigham Young. We fell in company with George A. Smith. Conosh [the Pauvant chief] joined us. Other Indian chiefs also joined our company. When we arrived in the city there were ten of them went up to see Brigham Young, the great Mormon chief. We encamped on Corn Creek on our way up; near a company of Emigrants from Arkansas, on the-----' "Here the account stops abruptly, for the next leaf is torn out.....What Brigham Young told the chiefs in that hour was not recorded, but we might hazard an opinion that it was not out of harmony with his written instructions that 'they must learn that they have got to help us or the United States will kill us both.'.....At that time Brigham Young had to be sure of his allies, for he was conducting a war against tremendous odds. The previous Mormon policy had been to keep the natives from stealing and plundering and to teach them the peaceful pursuits of farming and cattle raising, but now Brigham Young seemed determined that he would no longer "hold them by the wrist," as he told Captain Van Vliet a few days later." "The Indians must have started back home immediately, for in seven days they were harassing the emigrants at Mountain Meadows, and in ten days they participated in the massacre of the company." (Brooks, Mountain Meadows Massacre, pp. 40-42.) Brooks wrote in a later edition of her book: "Recently I was given access to an electrostatic copy of the daily journal of Brigham Young. Under date of September 1, 1857, the entry reads: 'Kanosh the Pavaunt chief with several of his band visited me gave me some council and presents. A spirit seems to be takeing possession of the Indians to assist Israel. I can hardly restrain them from exterminating the Americans.' "This seems very significant. The 'Journal History of the Church' under this same date tells of the visit of Jacob Hamblin and twelve Indian chiefs from the south. President Young talked with them all, but it seems that Kanosh was given private audience. He was the chief who had killed Captain John W. Gunnison and several of his men as they were camped on the Sevier River on October 28, 1853. Whether or not Kanosh and his band were at the Mountain Meadows we do not know, but we can now be certain that the Mormon war strategy was to use the natives as 'the battle-ax of the Lord,' as some of the early missionaries had stated." ("Mountain Meadows Massacre," Juanita Brooks, p. xiii.) In 1998, Mormon historian David Bigler provided more detail on that war council: "Hamblin and some twelve Indian chiefs on September first met with Brigham Young and his most trusted interpreter, 49-year-old Dimick Huntington, at Great Salt Lake. Taking part in this pow-wow were Kanosh, the Mormon chief of the Pahvants; Ammon, half-brother of Walker; Tutsegabit, head chief of the Piedes; Youngwuds, another Piede chieftain, and other leaders of desert bands along the Santa Clara and Virgin Rivers. "Little was known of what they talked about until recently when it came to light that Huntington (apparently speaking for Young) told the chiefs that he 'gave them all the cattle that had gone to Cal[ifornia by] the south rout[e].' The gift 'made them open their eyes,' he said. But 'you have told us not to steal,' the Indians replied. 'So I have,' Huntington said, but now they have come to fight us & you for when they kill us they will kill you.' The chiefs knew what cattle he was giving them. They belonged to the Baker-Fancher train." ("Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West," David Bigler, pp. 167-168.) Since the Baker-Fancher train was the last one to head to "California by the south route" that fall, Huntington's remark could have only referred to that train with their herd of about 400 cattle. Utah historian Hubert Bancroft shed further light on Dimick Huntington's activities: "Major Carleton, of the first dragoons. In a despatch to the assistant adjutant-general at San Francisco, dated Mountain Meadows, May 25, 1859, he says: 'A Pah Ute chief of the Santa Clara band, named Jackson, who was one of the attacking party, and had a brother slain by the emigrants from their corral by the spring, says that orders came down in a letter from Brigham Young that the emigrants were to be killed; and a chief of the Pah Utes, named Touche, new living on the Virgin River, told me that a letter from Brigham Young to the same effect was brought down to the Virgin River band by a man named Huntingdon.' A copy of the major's despatch will be found in the Hand-book of Mormonism, 67-9. Cradlebaugh says that after the attack had been made, one of the Indians declared that a white man came to their camp with written orders from Brigham to 'go and help to whip the emigrants.' " ("History of Utah," p. 561.) Juanita Brooks also offered: "This policy of robbing the passing emigrant was clearly a part of the general war tactics, since, for the time being, all 'Mericats' [Americans] were considered enemies." "As president of the Southern Indian Mission, [Jacob Hamblin] was responsible for the conduct of Indian affairs; as military commander of the area, Haight had sent these men to work with the natives in carrying out the war policies. With Zion standing against the world, and with the Indians as allies, they were prepared to prey upon every passing emigrant company as part of the contribution to the war." (Juanita Brooks, "Mountain Meadows Massacre," p. 122, 131.) Seeing as how the Mormons led the Indians to attack other emigrant trains from as far south as the Las Vegas area to Idaho territory in the north, the MMM was obviously not a one-off, isolated incident, but was in fact part of the institutional church's "war tactics", of which of course Brigham Young was the head. Brigham Young's original plan was for the Indians to make the attack, with the local Mormons staying out of sight, yet supervising the event. That plan was dashed when the Fancher party vigorously defended themselves and killed a couple of the Indians, repelling the initial attack. That's why the Mormon leaders devised the plan to lure the emigrants out under a flag of truce and murder them. The Mormons knew that if they allowed the emigrants to pass on, that the emigrants would notify authorities in California that white men were supervising the Indians. Also, you speak disparagingly of "a guy named Will Bagley" in your video. In case you aren't aware, Bagley, who recently died, was a well-respected, degreed historian of Utah and the western US for many decades. You imply that he alone tried to "make the case" that Brigham Young was behind the attack. I hope you can see from the documentation I've provided here that Bagley was not the only, nor the first, historian to correctly blame Young and institutional church teachings and policies for the incident, and delete your disparaging commentary regarding him. He's not here to defend himself.

So, here I go, again:: From my notes... comments in no particular order in relation to the video comments. G A Smith left SLC just prior to the Fancher Baker train. This was on purpose and Mormon diaries reflect his "Vitriol" as one on JD Lee's wives wrote of his speech in Harmony. There were 2 Martial Law declarations issued. one on Aug 8 and the other on Sept 14. Copies exist and the two are laid out very differently. Mormons state "They had no pass" and this reflects the martial law issue without purposely acknowledging its existence. GA Smith never said a word to the train when he intentionally left Beaver at night and then camped next to the train. Elias and Jesse Smith never said a word to the train. It camped at Silas Smiths place at Paragonah He, unlike other Mormons, was not excommunicated nor beaten for trading with the train. All the allegations against the train come long after the mass murder. "Missouri Wildcats" is nonsense. an invention. Over 30 Mormons traveled with the train, including the above mentioned and none spoke ill of the train. John Hawley traveled for days, as did Eli Kelsey , they speak well of them. One would think someone would warn the train....Kelsey did make a reference. Hawley made a reference but nothing rises close to a real complaint against this train of 75% women and kids. Once the deed was done it was possible that JD Lee, as probate judge could have judged his own crime!! ALL crimes in Utah were funneled thru the Mormon controlled probate courts where the outcome desired could be obtained. Only Federal issues were allowed to go into the territorial court. It was RN Baskin that finally put a stop that insult in Higbe Vs Ferris and criminal and civil trails were no longer Mormon controlled. This fact made it hard to prosecute JD Lee. Not only did the Mormons control the legal jurisdiction for some 200,000+ sq miles, they also had the only printing press! And thus controlled the information flow. Once the massacre was complete, the slanders against the dead began. Kanosh even lied and said his tribe attacked the train and did the deed!! No Corn Creek Indians were art MMM! Yet Kanosh told Kane and others this lie. When the Dukes train reached Corn Creek a few days after the F/B train they heard Nothing of poison.....This shows the story of arsenic was conjured up after the Dukes party.. Well, that's some of what I typed. "I'll be back" in a bit to flesh this all out. The Utah War was not a war in any sense. There were no shots fired and no one was wounded. Not even Col Kane..... The wagon train was 350 miles from SLC on Sept 11 and the Army was some 600+ miles from SLC! itt was 5 days, some 100 miles from Ft Laramie! It had to camp at Ft Bridger, some 500 miles, ALL Winter. On Sept 11 the train was East of the Green River! The Train of women and children and the Train of the US Military were Months apart and many Hundreds of miles apart. Is it reasonable to accuse the train of being a threat to Mormons when the Mormons themselves said they would Fight the Army and even burn their own homes??

Not quite the commentary by Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens. His book from 1871 "Roughing It" (Appendix B) gives a much different account taken from Mrs. C. V. Waite's "The Mormon Prophet". At this time, 150+ years later, with many different sources and much bias in account from all sides contending for control of the silver in the Nevada territory, we can never know what truly occurred.

Either he did or he didn't. I'm sure God knows and knows how to handle the situation.

I had no idea Uncle Rico was involved

Tell us about Haun´s Mill Massacre, How were all the details??

Thanks for these two videos

I don't understand something. Who gave the order for the massacre? that's the key question. Why did they execute John Lee only if he didn't give the order for it? that isn't logical. Why didn't the court and government try to find out who ordered it? Isn't that the key question? Another thing I don't get. After the first attack on the wagon train, why didn't the settlers leave right away and head for California? They could have hitched their wagons at night and left under cover of darkness. It's better than stay and get killed right?

Remember when Brigham went to the MMM site, raised his arm to the square and said " Vengeance is mine and I Have Taken a Little"? This is a confession. Add in the two Martial Law declarations, the actions G.A. Smith, the words of the murderers like Dame, Haight, etc. And you have a chain of command. Will Bagley is "some guy"? And who are you?

My Entire Comment, hundreds of words is Gone! I didn't delete it....I will try again later.

dude, that letter by brigham young doesn't prove that he was innocent. he could have written that letter any time after it happened as a cover to make himself look innocent. words on paper don't prove anything. anyone can write a letter like that. we have no idea when it was written or if it was written as a cover up to feign innocence. you can't jump to conclusions like that.

Excellent coverage of a complex and difficult topic. The next step to understanding would be an in-depth look at the mormon reformation of 1856-1857, Jedediah Grant, the early mormon catechism, requirements for re-baptism, and the Utah war. Comparing this fundamentalist wave within mormonism to the one that would occur around 1883-1885 under John Taylor could also be interesting. Perhaps a 3rd period of fundamentalism occurred between 1830-1836, though it's harder to make a case for this 3rd one because everything was in so much flux during the founding of the movement.

Excellent story and commentary. Thanks.

The background situation you gotta consider: You gotta understand that the Mormons were not violent at first. They only got that way later. Remember that when they were in Missouri, there was an incident at Haun's Mill where a mob came and shot at the Mormons and killed 17 of them. The men who did it were never arrested. Because the governor wanted to wipe them out. So they still wanted revenge for that. I heard the incident that sparked the Meadows Massacre was when one of their missionaries was killed in Arkansas. Since that wagon train was from Arkansas, they wanted to revenge and believed that those who murdered their missionary were related to the wagon train. The local folks in Utah at the time, believed that's what triggered the massacre. It could also be that Brigham Young believed that he received a divine command from God to massacre the wagon train because he believed some of those who murdered Joseph Smith were on it. Historian Will Bagley wrote a book about it and implicated Brigham Young through some of his cryptic words. For example, when a memorial was created for the massacre victims, Brigham Young said in a consecration over it: "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. And I have taken a little." This indicated revenge. Also, the Mormons were paranoid at the time because they believed that President Bucanan was about to send the US Army out to wipe them out. So they were on edge too. So you gotta take all that into consideration. It could also be that Brigham Young received some supernatural visitation or revelation from higher forces that told him that those who killed Joseph Smith were on the wagon train, and that God gave him the green light to go ahead and kill them in revenge. Or at least he believed he did. Who knows. Since Young and Joseph Smith did receive periodic divine revelations, then that is a possibility I think. If so, that may be why he gave the order to kill them all when the wagon train was near Salt Lake City, according to historian Will Bagley. You also gotta remember that in the 1800s Americans were wild and trigger happy, not like the pacifist wusses they are today. They didn't have cell phones and computers and TV to keep them distracted and occupied. So they were wild and trigger happy. Also killing people back then wasn't the taboo that it is now. It was bad of course, but it was a common thing people did. Especially in the wild west where people were wild and trigger happy. Btw, why was Joseph Smith arrested for declaring martial law? As mayor wasn't that in his right? And did those who arrest him plan to have him killed by a mob? Was it all planned or a spontaneous event? Obviously they had a bias against him, and were looking for some excuse to arrest him. People are very subjective and if they don't like you, they find an excuse to get rid of you, but the excuse isn't the real reason, just the trigger they need to do what they want. So why did they dislike him so much that they had to kill him? That must be an extreme dislike, not just an aversion.

It's interesting people today judge so harshly with the standards of today, the environment and technology of today. We do so with the Israelites during Moses' time, with the pharisees during Christ's time, with Brigham Young (A prophet of Jesus Christ) and with John D Lee (a scapegoat). Instead of being an ugly tourist with so much judgement on a past we didn't live through, it would be best to be a true Christian (Advocate). Judge not or be judged with the same judgement. Judge righteously. Live the doctrine taught in the scriptures. Have Faith, Hope, Charity.

The saddest thing involving this massacre is that only a single Mormon, John D. Lee, was *honest* in stating the facts as they applied to the massacre.

Great job on this one! Prophets are just men like us. There are many mistakes done by Brigham Young, he was not perfect. I appreciate you pointing out all the facts beforehand and how it could've been handled better by the prophet.

I investigated this also, and I have came to the same conclusions you have. Thank you for doing these video's.

Good job on this Saint Unscripted

Was this an awful event? Yes. Was the church attempt to spin or hide the true involvement of their people, regardless of command, a bit sketch? Yes. Both things can be simultaneously true.

And I am not even mentioning the climate involving the Danites (who JS looked the other way like a President would overlook water-boarding)who’s job was to defend the community against dissident and excommunicated LDS. These were clear Mormon vigilantes who set a climate of Mormon strong arming of perceived outside threats. People, please realize BY actually visited the MMM and shouted, “Vengeance is mine - and I have repaid," ....a casual reminder for the Saints of their blood oath . And hey - while we are at it, let’s tear down the monument stone by stone. (Historical citation if needed) It is certainly inconclusive re: BY involvement, one way or the other. However, the religious fervor and perceived paranoia of religious persecution lend credence. That’s not the real question though. For the LDS, he was a living Prophet. Why didn't he see all of this coming and stop the Church from having the worst event in it's history from happening? Not to mention saving 130 lives in the process?

“I will ding him [Brigham Young] for downplaying the [Mountain Meadows Massacre] after the fact.” Hold on there, Dave Snell. I think there is a greater complexity of circumstances that explain the actions of BY. Please be most careful, brother. We need a fair stare-circumspect reflect! I appreciate the depth of Richard Turley’s work. Like scholar-deity Richard Bushman, he’s been a great document hound. But I don’t esteem his viewpoint, simply because he’s chosen a Liberal academic’s tack. He has made _’dear’_ friends with acidic critics and Liberals by mimicking their disposition. Cheers, brother. :)

Young was an evildoer.... at times. And have a great day

I have been to the memorial that the Church established there to take about the only accountability possible. I have served a mission in Arkansas and was asked about this event many times. It’s hard to know for sure all that occurred and all of the factors leading up to this atrocity. There is no justification for this horrible event. I have read multiple accounts from multiple perspectives. I have been to Southern Utah with my father and spoken to Old West historians and old locals and one story is that there was a flour mill in Parowan where a man worked who helped another man in the Baker-Fancher train, part of the party that was murdered, just before they made their way to camp at Meadow Mountain. This man was an immigrant to the valley and settled there after bringing his family from Missouri. The man who worked at the mill recognized this particular member of the party passing through as the same who had raped his own wife while residents of Missouri and part of the extermination order by Governor Boggs. He swore to himself he would take revenge if he ever crossed paths with him again. His family has posterity still there. This is not a justification but it is a known fact that he, and others, charged up locals there and engaged indigenous people, believing some in the party were dangerous and justifying a preemptive attack. Unsure of where they planned to settle or what they would do next. There were some compelled to follow Lee. There were others who did not. Those that murdered these did so with the justice of God to answer to. I do not believe they were directed by Brigham Young. If this was their modus operandi they would have reacted much differently to Johnson’s Army when they came through. As only one example. There would have been multiple incidents like these from Illinois to Missouri and on and on. This was a tragic, isolated incident from those who acted out of vengeance and fear. It’s not a reflection of the Church in general anymore than the Hans Mill Massacre is a reflection of the citizens of Missouri in general.

Your lack of in depth knowledge of this incident is appalling. It was a military operation of the Iron County Militia that worked perfectly as a military matter but resulted in innocent deaths. The Utah War (1857-58) was in full swing...the Congress of the United States dispatched fully 1/3 of the US military to Utah to kill the Mormons since they had rejected imposition of federal authority in the State of Deseret. The Mormons had set up their own government, were printing money and were independent of the US government. When the Mormons left Illinois for the Great Basin, they had left the US and came to unincorporated Mexican territory where they prospered until the end of the Mexican War when the Utah territory and all of the western land were ceded top the US as part of the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. The Mormons had had enough of the "constitutional" treatment they had received the hand of the good "Christians" in the US. There's a lot more to it and at the risk of pearls before swine, I have attempted to straighten the haters' uninformed and unfair narrative. When the Baker wagon train came to SLC, they had come too late in the year to cross the Sierra Nevada and so they went the southern route to San Bernardino. The Mormons were in a state of Martial Law and wouldn't trade any supplies with the immigrants, making for a contentious trip through the Mormon settlements. They had threatened to go into California and bring US troops up the southern flank of the Mormons. That was their doom. The Mormons couldn't afford to open a two-front war and the wagon train was the unfortunate victims of war. Brigham Young knew nothing of the massacre until my great grandfather reported it to him 10 days later. Then, the cover-up began. The Mormons couldn't afford to have this PR nightmare laid at their feet and they decided to distance themselves from the actors of this tragedy. If the Mormon church is guilty of anything, it is in the way my ancestor was treated. He was the only one tried and executed by the US government. The MMM was a military operation in a short war that ended with nobody else killed. Stop your pollution of this story.

Conspiracy theorists before 2001: 9/11 was an inside job! Conspiracy theorists after 2001: 9/11 was an inside job! Great vid guys!

Brigham Young knew about it!

The fact that BYU is named after the man who ordered these murders and tried to cover it up is very disturbing and sad.

5:09 is dismissive and distasteful. You’ll ding Brigham Young for that? WTH? This is so ridiculous. Apparently It isn’t a big deal what happened to the victims of this horrendous crime, but BY gets “dinged” (5 points) for trying to cover it up. Mormons have no humanity seriously. It’s like they can’t even comprehend what it means to have remorse for a cold blooded mass murder, let alone the worst occurrence in American history, not to mention the entire world. I’m so disgusted!