Was I Wrong about the IFB? (A Bow Tie Dialogue Follow Up) 

I'm 17, since you ask. I'm watching completely by my own 'freewill' :)

I definitely preach repentance in my church.

22 year old here, I came from the Matt Whitman and Redeemed Zoomer talk you posted

I grew up IFB at a church pastored by a Hyles Anderson College graduate, and attended an IFB college that was started by a HAC graduate. Here's my experience: KJVO. No talk of the TR. Encouraged to read Riplinger and warned against Ruckmanites. I heard many times that the KJV is on a 6th grade reading level. Steve Anderson was mentioned in one of my classes as a crazy outlier, but never as someone that would be on the same page as us. Calvinism was called a doctrine of demons, and the "enemy of soul winning." And it was misrepresented. They said that according to Calvinism, someone who wanted to be saved could not, if they were not elect. There is an anti-intellectualism that is VERY present in the IFB. The emphasis is on practical living and easy-to-measure external standards like dress and the # of people you "get saved" on a regular basis. There is a major focus on following and obeying God for fear of missing His perfect will. Salvation is never in question. That's a one-prayer-and-done. But a miserable life can be yours if you deviate at all from the IFB extra-biblical standards and don't seek counsel from your pastor and adhere to everything he instructs. IFB churches will criticize churches with more modern music and say things like, "if it makes you tap your foot, it's not moving your heart." And although they mock the emotionalism of more modern worship styles, the style of preaching and the repetitive songs of LONG altar calls is emotionally charged and even manipulative. From one IFB preacher to another, the emphasis on repentance and faith could vary. But theological concepts were not consistently well explained and often played second string to dramatic illustrations and yelled catch phrases during sermons.

Keith, I absolutely lost it when you encouraged captive home schoolers to blink three times! BTW, thanks for all the shout outs you have done to Knoxville, TN. I am a pastor in Knoxville and we are glad you enjoyed your trips up here (and your visits to Aubrey's too)!

The IFB movement is in the process of fading away. Some segments are drifting into serious error, such as denying original sin.

What the one guy said at 1:08:20-1:09:00 is exactly what we mean when we say you don't have to repent of sin. In the theological world people get very married to a specific way of explaining things and anyone who says something different is a heretic. This happens on all sides. The one guy said he would like to know what I would say about this. I would gladly come on any program and explain exactly what I mean when I talk about repentance. Calvinists are probably the only people worse than the IFB at straw manning people when it comes to the subject of repentance.

I'm not sure how these guys are missing this and Keith I would think you for sure would have understood this. You were asking about the "IFB" not "fundamentalism". There is a big difference between someone who identifies as just a fundamentalist which would include many denominations that aren't Baptist. We were talking about independent fundamental Baptists. Just adding Baptist is going to add many specifics that aren't included in the fundamentals. Keith you even mentioned how most IFB you know are KJV only. This is why we said if someone is IFB you can expect things like standards and KJV only. We weren't adding those things to historical fundamentals. Those are IFB things. Obviously it won't cover everyone who is IFB because they are all also independent. These guys didn't seem to know much at all about IFB. This happens all the time with these people who are obsessed with the fundamentals of the 20s. When they hear IFB talk about IFB things they blow their top because we talk about things that weren't a part of the 20s fundamentalism. This is also why many in the IFB are talking about dropping the "F" in IFB because they don't want to look like they are a part of the fundamentalist movement of the 20s.

The independent Baptist Church my kids were involved in for youth activities was KJV only. Don't know about the other part. They also preached on repentance of sin. They talked about repentance as you described. Thanks for posting. Well done.

Having attended a couple of IFB Churches these are some have to be. 1. KJV Only 2. Songs primarily hymns 3. Dispensationalism 4. Modestly is paramount. (Women) 5. Doctrine of Separation (have nothing to do with others who don’t adhere to the IFB positions) 6. Topic driven preaching (Does and Don’t) Schools in order of most IFB 1. Crown College of the Bible. 2. West Coast Baptist College 3. Pensacola Baptist College 4. Bob Jones University

I'm an 18 year and I attend a IFB church. We had a KJV conference once, and the main focus was the text. I'm a Textus Receptus guy myself, so I agreed on that front. We were told that translations can't be 100% exact. I was on board with that too, but our pastor and the other speakers, and everyone who preaches at our church still treat the KJV as a perfect translation. Our church wouldn't dare associate with another church that uses the NKJV or any other translation. Everyone I know, including my own family are practically Ruckmanites. I've been reading the NKJV, because I prefer the TR for the New Testament, and my family thinks that it is terrible to even own any translation that isn't a KJV. I've asked multiple times for reasons why the NKJV is to be avoided, but the answer is always "It isn't the KJV, so it's wrong!" When we go on vacations, we look for Baptist churches to attend while on the vacations, but if they don't use the KJV, it isn't even considered. My parents will immediately turn off a solid preacher on RU-vid or the television, if he doesn't use the KJV. The KJV is the standard, not the manuscripts it is translated from. I've tried to explain that we should be able to read the Bible in our English, not 1600s English, but their stubbornness continues. Someone I know has even threatened to have me taken to the pastor of our church and sat down with him to talk about how I'm wrong for not being a KJV Onlyist. It's a little discouraging, but as I read more of the Bible, I am reminded to keep my head up high and continue living for God. I still love my KJV Onlyist brothers and sisters in Christ, but I feel like they are a little misled.

I love your intro with the old Independent Life building and the Main Street bridge. Nice.

Really enjoyed brother Andrew explain repentance. Thank you!

No longer ifb- but 3 ifb churches we were members of - 2 were KJV in name only (some members more ruckmanites) but 1 was KJV to the extreme. Mark wards RU-vid channel helped answer my questions and assisted in breaking free from ifb KJV only cultish thinking.

21 year old partially homeschooled Lutheran here. People born in 2003 like myself are 20/21 now haha. I live in Canada (Toronto area) and the only times I've ever run into IFB folks is homeschooling circles before I went to public high school.

If you want to understand their view of repentance, look into the lufe and ministry of Jack Hyles.

The was very good! Thank you

This is helpful in understanding where Spencer Smith is coming from …

Gentlemen! This is an interesting discussion. There is a group of guys who have created the "Recovering Fundamentalist Podcast." I'll preface this to say that I have various doctrinal and philosophical disagreements with some of the positions that the podcast takes. However, they have some episodes covering the topic of the various "camps" of IFB and what distinguishes the different IFB camps. They recently had Dr. Steve Pettit on the podcast. He was the President of Bob Jones University for about 9 years. Previous to that he was involved in traveling ministry that involved visiting many churches, largely IFB, and experiencing the differing cultures among them. It was interesting to hear how he described the camps as having been distinct but similar 20-30 years ago. But now they are even more disparate. He likened it to a pie with each camp being a distinct slice. Years ago, they were all "in the pie pan" with the sides touching. Now they are "on the plate" no longer touching. In other words, the separationism has been taken to a more extreme level. I grew up generally IFB, primarily from the Bob Jones influenced camp. KJVO was not a thing that we adhered to, but we had some Ruckmanites try to make it a thing in one church we attended. The result was a veritable "church split." Some left amicably, some less so. Music standards were very important, and we were very conservative in style. It is ironic, though, that when I go look at some of the hymns we sang, especially the ones from the 19th and early 20th centuries, the lyrics were sometimes very shallow. But the tune was right, and it was in the hymnbook, so it must be ok, right? However, the churches we were in were strong on expository preaching though from a Dispensational hermeneutic (Calvinism was certainly opposed, though as mentioned, what was opposed was a caricature of the doctrines of grace). I appreciate the expository part, and that has been formative in my own walk with Christ. All in all, my experience with IFB has been what I consider "soft-IFB." My dad had a brush with Hyles-Anderson college, and even had conversations with Jack Hyles himself. But the emphasis was imbalanced that by God's grace, my dad moved on. Whenever we visited Baptist churches as a family after moving into a new area, my parents were keen on avoiding, and even walking out in protest, churches that were obviously legalistic. I very much appreciate their example.

It’s so bizarre how KJVOs will talk about the 1611 as the only good Bible translation, and yet they all have modern KJV Bibles.

I grew up in an IFB church. I have went to nondenominational churches and reformed churches, also listening to John MacArthur. I have noticed that a chunk of the reformed denominations and a chunk of those who are big names within the reformed circle have really went woke. Plus there are also all the issues with the SBC. I have very recently decided to go back to an IFB church. They do use the KJV, but I am not entirely sure on their stance if they are KJV only or not. I have used the KJV while there, but I do also like other translations as well. But I did hear a message there last week where total depravity was preached, right along with unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints. It was wonderful! They do sing only classic hymns, which I love. And they also have a very big heart for evangelism! To put it simply, it was biblical Christianity being preached. Kind of like going to hear a Charles Spurgeon sermon. By the way, I have also attended Faith Baptist of Troy on a few occasions. :-) Also, some of my family members attended Detroit Bible College. My brother went to Tennessee Temple Bible College.

I've known several IFB who were so KJVOnly they thought it necessary to translate the KJV into other languages. Because it was inspired. Also had them call my salvation into question because I studied Greek and used the Eclectic Text.

One if the pastors at my church has only ever been a member of this church. He's been coming since he was little.

I should probably go back and finish the first IFB episode for complete context. I couldn’t finish it because they seemed to preach a different Christ and a different gospel than was shown to me

Hmm was this planned to be uploaded at the start of June? I was expecting some discussion about the Romans 1 interpretation given when this is being uploaded. The repentance thing is more of an issue with how people understand the word IMO. A lot of people will think repent means to stop sinning (or to commit to stop sinning), so I personally don't really use the word either.

I am 20 listening from Oklahoma.

I'm here

Thanks for the great conversation. A big takeaway is that Fundamentalism is quite splintered. I myself grew up in Fundamentalism but I rarely interacted with IFB churches and pastors. I would encourage people to check out a conversation on Kevin DeYoung’s podcast, Life, Books & Everything, titled “Where Have All the Fundamentalists Gone?” Where they wrestle with the Fundamentalist identity. Also, brother Foskey, if you want to have another conversation on the topic, I would recommend reaching out to Kevin Bauder of Central Baptist Theological Seminary in Minneapolis Minnesota. He has written quite a lot on the topic. (Unless you don’t want to beat a dead horse 😉)

There are some dispensationalists (a minority) who believe that only some of Paul's Epistles are relevant in the "church age." So if Jesus said repent, it really doesn't matter for us today, because he was not in the "church age." This may answer your question about how they can see verses where Jesus says repent, and still say it's not something WE are to do.

I was saved in Dalton, Georgia at Bible way Baptist Church independent ,fundamental, premillennial ,pre-trib, and King James only ,Missionary Baptist church. But our distinctives was more than that. I since moved away from some of the legalism but the evangelism and the missionary mindedness and standing on the truth has really helped me in my Christian life. In some cases it did more harm than good. The other things we focused on other than the gospel.

I’m Presbyterian now, but grew up IFB. We were KJV only, and every church that we fellowshiped with were too (mostly in the southeast). We were not Ruckmenites, but did not except any other English translation even if it was from the TR.

I was raised in the GARBC and attended Cedarville College. We thought Bob Jones University was too strict and Wheaton College was too loose. The college had baked into its standards of conduct certain things we bristled against as legalistic. One thing to note is that these things were context-dependent. Students before me complained that "grannie glasses" were banned b/c John Lennon wore them. This rule was dropped by the time I got there (1974), but my hair length had to be above my ears, and I could not listen to Rock & Roll music. Facial hair was right out, b/c hippies wore beards. Talking to some of the oldsters I heard that Bob Jones senior was a lot more reasonable back in the 1940s. The guiding principle seemed to be old=good, new=bad. This is not even wrong b/c the old understanding of scripture is true and the new understanding (Theological Modernism, and Neo-Orthodoxy) is bad. The GARBC came out of the Northern Baptist Convention (that since rebranded as the American Baptists) very early during the Fundamentalist dispute. Much of its growth came from luring Baptist congregations who were rejecting Theological Liberalism. They had to "come out and be separate" from the apostate liberal Northern Baptists. In the fullness of time a Wheaton grad (after he was rusticated by Bob Jones) Billy Graham told converts to stay in the churches that were run by apostates. GARBC pastors started talking about "second-degree separation." Opposition to Billy Graham's message of rapprochement with apostasy was at the root of the emphasis upon separation. While I was at Cedarville Francis Schaeffer came on the scene and made the case that we ought to engage culture as salt & light less we'd see more things like Roe v Wade. This was coopted by the hucksters and phonies of the Bush-league GOP. This is my perspective from Michigan & the midwest. No doubt your experience south of the Mason-Dixon line may vary.

I’m the one person who did not know Andrew 😂

Heh Mr. Wilson, It seems everyone Pastor/Theologian has a different answer which is awesome. But in your opinion what is the one book besides the Bible that all Christians should read? I just gave away my copy of Pilgrims Progress, but what is your favorite?

Tuning in to answer the question of how they deal with the calls for repentance given by John and Christ in the gospels. In my experience, the rejection of repentance is accompanied by and stems from a radical dispensationalism which teaches that only the Pauline epistles are directly applicable today, and that the "gospel of the kingdom" proclaimed by Christ is exclusively for Jewish people in the future tribulation period, thus we don't really have to deal with those passages.

The best simple definition of IFB (and independent fundamentalism in general) happens to be my own, and I kind of like it: "Incredulity with Church history."

Iv been to two ifb churches both for almost a year each and they were kjv only, all other versions are of the devil and one of the pastors kicked an esv from the pulpit. I am happy to say me and my family have now found a solid reformed baptist church that we love

Your point @40:00 I agree with you all in that I was born again listening to a Christian radio program but they weren’t speaking about the gospel. I didn’t understand anything other than conviction of my sin and knowing God is real and I grieved him. I was only then, hungry for knowing God and who was Christ and how did he die for me? I learned the fundamentals later. Denying them I can see now you are not saved. Blessings 🙏

I've got all three beat. I was in seminary 1985-1987.

I grew up in IFB circles. I’m sure there are healthy IFB churches out there… my church was not one of them. Glad the Lord got me out of that. Now, I’m a member at an OPC church. The biggest difference, to me, is the preaching!

Keith, just a suggestion for next time from your church studio, your mic was way too hot 🔥

I grew up at a church that was part of the IFCA (Independent Fundamentalist Churches of America). We weren't part of any denomination with any overhead governing body. My church was not however what most people think of as fundamentalist. I met others in the IFCA that definitely fit the fundamentalist stereotype.

Regarding the King James: I learned quickly that when I teach from the King James there is a Power in that version of the Word that does not exist in the other versions. NIV is useless in that sense. The Power of God is so diminished in that version it might as well not be there. I noticed this phenomenon before I ever knew of the controversy. My Bible study students use multiple versions. I use King James and New King James exclusively, myself.

I was laughing a lot with this video. Thank you! My guess: suits help men look good in many ways and help cover up anything sweaty or jiggly with larger men-so as a way of being modest, handsome, and professional.

I meannn there is a reason why it takes as long to get a purple belt in bjj as it takes to get a black belt in just about any other art

Half way through, you all have me thinking of J Gresham Machen. Machen's Christianity & Liberalism (1923) demonstrates Liberalism is NOT a hyphenated Christianity but in fact, denies all that is Christianity. His points adhere closely to same arguments of the Fundamentals, and he is likely responding to Liberal preacher Fosdick's "Shall the Fundamentals win!" Yet, he kept at a distance those organizations and people who were basically creating the fundamentalism brand. He refused running a seminary for them. From paragraph or two in Christianity and Liberalism, his negative reaction to fundamentists seems to be to how dispensationalism was becoming a requirement. Even before Scopes (1925), Machen interactions represent that A) distinction between Fundamentals and fundamentalism and B) fundamentalist quickly amassing more distinction, like dispensationalism, to create those additional degrees of separation, even if the majority of fundamentalist have a hard time understanding dispensationalism (ironically DL Moody also didn't understand it but promoted it because it pragmatically fit his evangelistic goals).

Not my son blinking three times.....

Jack Hyles of Hyles Anderson College and Curtis Hutson of the Sword of the Lord basically changed the historical definition Orion of repentance and put out this false view on repentance that you hear from the guys that were on before. So you have a split in the IFB. Guys who were taught by that crowd have repentance wrong and it’s more prevalent than it should be unfortunately. The NIFB really hammers away at their new definition. It has nothing to do with anti Calvinism. It has to do with making it easy to get people to say a prayer so you have numbers to boast about.

Keith is such a nice guy! No way he’s a true Calvinist… 🤣🤣🤣

I mean this with all sincerity. These, ifb gentlemen, we're much more charitable.

Most are KJVO from the extreme inspired side to the believe it to be the best translation and everything in between. Most haven’t studied it well. I still use the KJV when I preach but not an onlyist.

My brother is fighting for his life trying to say “independent fundamental Baptist”

The IFBB is a much higher standard of bodybuilding. Saying that their is alot of corruption with the judges.

From my understanding about the gentlemen in the last video (I watched the entire video) all they were trying too explain especially the gentlemen who was in the Assembly of God church was that sometimes denominations take and mix up as the one gentlemen is this video described the big R Repentance and swap it with the little r Repentance and attribute it too someone’s salvation. My wife grew up in a church like the church the gentlemen who went too the Assembly of God church it wasn’t an Assembly of God but they had a lot of the same theology about things and she was told if she didn’t stop sinning she wouldn’t go too heaven she heard “repent of sin” “repent of your sins”and she thought unless she stopped sinning she would never be able too get too heaven. She was working for her salvation. That’s what they were trying too explain not that if you have a sin in your life you shouldn’t repent of it. The big R repentance the gentlemen spoke of is definitely preached or at least at my ifb church I’ve attended my whole life. Another thing at my church we don’t believe a person can just come out and accept Jesus as savior unless first a work of the Holy Spirit is done and reveals to you your lost and you come under conviction. Everything else about kjv only and the culture talked about “old fashioned” is how we are. I love my hymn book and my kjv although me personally I wouldn’t consider myself kjv only but it is my preferred translation just because it’s what grew up with and used too. I actually own quite a few modern translations but i always end up in my kjv. My wife reads an esv.

Every IFB church around the knoxville area are kjvo in a position between ruckmanism and tr only.

In Puerto Rico, the only KJVO IFB I’ve known of are American missionaries. No form of KJVO other than plain preference of its Spanish contemporary.

What’s interesting is that Bob Jones senior was a Methodist!!

To help here guys. Fundamentalism is not simply a stand against liberalism but that which is taken to the extent that it would manifest as being sectarian. Then sectarianism would see a seperation from any and all who would not hold their defined fundamentals as they define it. Not simply cultural but cultural and doctrinal seperation held very rigidly. The fundamentals are good, fundamentalism is sectarian, which is not good (Rom 13-15).

To answer your question I am a KJV only Baptist. I'm in the TR camp. I believe the KJV was translated from a providentially preserved text. The KJV is beautiful, it created a standard, it is almost universally recognized as God's word in the english speaking world (I think.) I don't think anything is missing or that it has been improved upon by any newer versions. I don't think it is difficult to understand. I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist. I like the fundamental baptist culture. This is the group that I want to be part of. I do not use the term, "repent," when I share the gospel because of the confusion around the term and the many ways that it can be used. I agree with Keith's explanation of what he means when he says, "repent," in his gospel message. The book of John contains all that a persons needs to know receive eternal life (John 20:30+31). Since the book of John doesn't use the word, I don't find it necessary.

Keith probably wears a suit jacket when he preaches for the same reason I do. To hide his belly 😮

Grew up in a church that did not call itself IFB, just IB, but was very IFB-adjacent. We used only the KJV, but I do not know the official stance on it, which probably speaks more to the amount of doctrine actually taught. Our family just believed the KJV was the best translation, older is better, etc. (totally ignoring the Geneva and Tyndale Bibles). We had a family that used ESV, and the most that I think happened was the youth group ribbing the boys about using a different translation. I attended BJU from 2016-2020 (yeah, that was a fun year to end on) and I can confirm the school's stance on Bible translation. BJU also had, at the time, a list of approved churches that the students could attend. On that list there was at least one Presbyterian church (granted they were the Free Presbyterian church). I spent my first three years attending a very IFB church, where the pastor would preach a whole sermon on why women should wear skirts, why we had to use the KJV (I'm not sure of the specifics, but they seemed to think it was sin to use another translation). I felt like such a rebel when I bought my first ESV in the university bookshop during my third year. The preacher also referred to Calvinism as "damnable heresy," so that tracks. My then-fiance and I decided after our third year (when we'd been taking the required classes on doctrine BTW) that we'd switch churches. Oddly enough, we consider that church and that pastor as the little push we needed to move toward reformed doctrine.

Keith is secular music a sin?

31:51. I’m 21. That close enough?

I've studied film and even I question what is actually worth watching nowadays. For all of the laughs and such, the immorality is often there, just like a poison; it's desensitizing at best. Plus considering the history of Hollywood and certain entertainment, it seems like a fair question to, well, question if TV/Film/etc is the best use of the time God's given us. I do like documentaries, though. 😊

The first show had a subset group of New IFB guys that doesn't represent the mainstream of IFB and this guest represents a more wide position that would get you rejected by the mainstream IFB moment. There should be someone that represents the colleges like PCC, Westcoast, Crown, etc. That's IFB. If you're not KJVO, you're not IFB. When I left KJV Onlyism, that was when I officially stepped out of the IFB.

I'm one of those 20 year olds that watches you.

Hey guys I’m very concerned of my standing before God would someone please help me. It’s a salvation issue.

The TR/KJV only thing is such a smokescreen for the IFB. It's a fancy semantics way of sounding smart while being IFB. Because they're not our there using the NKJV, theyre still sticking with the KJV. It's KJV onlyism in a fancy pants disguise. I grew up IFB, heard the TR/Byzantine crap all the time. It's KJVO Lite for nice(er) people.

Well, I think when you discovered Tommy, you found the easy believism portion of the movement. I think the issue is they deny Lordship.

Are you guys closer to Cobra Kai or Miyagi-Do 🤔

Love you guys, but Keith needs to turn his mic gain down. That dude it distorting like false teachers!

lol, I’m from the moment and went to a IFB Bible college, Calvinist now, but to be non KJV in that movement would make you a unicorn…

I believe Steven Anderson and the new IFB teach you repent from unbelief but not from your sins.

Everyone over 20 is 20 years old.🤔

John Hamblin is the IFB 🤣

I for one am not at all surprised that a denomination with the word "Independent" in the name can't agree with each other.

Here we go! As a big guy myself I’m going to guess the reason why you wear a suit is for the same reason that I wear one; it’s because it covers the man boobs and my big belly and makes me look good! 😎

You should interview Spencer Smith about this. He went to Crown College a very well known IFB college together with Bob Jones University. I am consider myself an IFB even though I live in Italy. My pastor comes from an IFB church but we are against the cultish behaviors within the movement. We would not fellowship with the New IFB. My pastro actually told a church to stop supporting him cus they went New IFB. Most of them do hold to the KJV only , we do reject the Ruckman's view though. Also, the IFB has done a band job preaching standards without explaining the why. I think Spencer Smith is on the right side of the IFB though.

I’m a 24 year old woman… does that count? 😜

Alright, now I really want Paul Cox from RefToons to draw you as a satyr in a formal smoking jacket holding your cigar with the quote, "Actually, I consider myself a satirist."

THey are not against repentence ,they are against "repent of all your sins" expression. Most of them would agree with the definition that Andrew gave.

If these guys are so different than the Steven Andersons and Gene Kims of the world, why wouldn't they separate themselves with some new name other that IFB? In the circle i hang out in we just figure all IFB's are cuckoo for cocoa puffs. 😧

Theological liberalism is merely thinking you can properly be called a Christian and not be in communion with the See of Peter.

Keith, I LOVE your stuff… Please loose the weight if you’re going to talk about being a martial artist. Gluttony is also a sin, and one we don’t focus on enough in our churches. I’m the same age as you and returned to military service, running 20+ miles a week. You CAN do it, it will likely increase your reach and legitimize your claims by looking the part.