**Spoiler Alert** I’d like to briefly elaborate on a point made in this video, as to make it a bit easier to understand. At 05:00 I explain that negative utilitarianism, and utilitarianism in general, suffers from being based on a **naturalistic fallacy**. The conclusion of suffering-based ethics expresses what ought to be, based on what is. Hence it is a naturalistic fallacy. This, of course, also violates Hume’s Guillotine (Is-Ought Problem). Just because we want to avoid pain (“is” statement / descriptive statement) does not then mean we "ought" to avoid things that cause pain (prescriptive statement). A bit more is needed to justify said normative claim. And, unfortunately for the pro-mortalist, all avenues that one could potentially take to circumvent the Is-Ought Problem is not available to them. (I’ll eventually be making a video on this in like a few months or something). The reason for this is because all alternatives involve embracing human nature and intuitions, whereas pro-mortalism (and anti-natalism) outright reject them and consider them to be delusions. But yes, that is why pro-mortalism and utilitarianism are based on naturalistic fallacies. It’s not enough to render the positions defunct, but it is important to point out (and I’m saying this as a eudaemonistic utilitarian). Be that as it may, this logical flaw is more damning for the pro-mortalist than it would be for a typical utilitarian.
I’ve found this whole topic really interesting and enlightening. You emphasised in the video that most neurotypical people want to keep living. Could you (if you haven’t already) discuss how/why this is different in neurodivergent people?
@@Bluetrekkie That is beyond my realm of expertise. I just know from studies that specific philosophical stances tend to (not always) be shared by neurodivergent people. Meaning their cognitive makeup makes them more inclined to hold certain beliefs when compared to more “normal” people.
Jennier was a man in grief and didn't have the right to force anyone to do anything just because his wife couldn't dodge something with the speed of an 90 year old man. Humans were nearly made extinct by wolves but we didn't give up, I really hate the argument that its better to die than suffer when it is better to suffer and rage against the darkness because if you fail after that at least you can tell your self you tried.
@@arkansasstorm I didn't mean Jenner was right, just that Carol was wrong about the 'brutality' of going out in the cdc. Just because most of the group has died since, doesn't mean Jenner was right. Glenn for instance, experienced the best time of his life after the cdc.
@@wouter-jansen i get you. Glenn did until negan got a hold of him. I was saying that for carol, jenner was better than the fate that sophia got. Granted carol in the comics went unhinged.
No, Rick has proven Jenner wrong so many times. We fight and we go on as long as we can. We fight, for every second. We take back the world piece by piece. No matter how long it takes. We tried to take back the world. For those that are counting on us.
How do you restart a society, where an accident, or a suicide can lead to a zombie outbreak? You can die in bed of old age , and wake up and start trying to eat your elderly loved one.
@@hastur_kinginyellow5310it’s simple, restart society with people that actually know how to defend themselves. If you train everyone in a city to be comfortable in danger, and able to murder zombies without being scared, this wouldn’t even be a problem
@@kidnamedsolid3547The prison arc shows how futile that is. People get soft that quickly, even when they are still actively seeing walkers in daily life. They freaked out over burning the bodies of the dead friends even for health reasons. Alexandria too.
@@MistyWarden rick grimes hasn’t pussied out in the show (not including the first couple seasons), so imagine a place where everyone is like rick in that sense. It’s hard to make but not impossible
People use the logic of "suffering = always bad" to justify euthanizing disabled people like me. I'm Autistic, and I have heard about autistic people who have been euthanized because "they couldn't have lived a 'normal' life." Wtf is a "normal life" anyway?? Yes, feeling pain is scary, but there are so many things you can look forward to! And I'm saying this as someone who is disgusted by how indifferent people were and still are about older people, disabled people and chronically ill people dying from covid. "They were gonna die anyways" is something a lot of people have said to justify their indifference. All while formerly nondisabled people became disabled because of covid. Guess we all should just lie down and die, am I right? 🤪 Sorry for rambling, but it just feels so disturbing how easy people can dehumanize some people, all while defending horrible people.. I'm actually glad to hear more people using the term neurotypical to describe the majority! Do you happen to be disabled/neurodivergent or are you just an awesome and rational ally? 😊
I personally take issue with the phrase "needless pain and misery". All gains, advances, beauty, and *meaning* are derived *from* pain, and the resulting striving against it. Without pain, discomfort, and needs we would never achieve any kind of progress against it. If all someone experienced was pleasure, they'd just lay there and vegetate; lost in experiencing the pleasure. Don't believe it? Study addicts. Given their pleasure source in an unlimited manner, they are as good as dead. Unlimited pleasure is death. Pain does defeat many. Maybe even most. But those that are left are stronger... with an abiding sense of purpose and strength. With *meaning.* Pain also teaches. We don't truly understand loss until we experience it. Cannot value what we can lose until we earn and protect it. The effort defines it. Nothing easy is worth anything.
i dont agree with his method trying to kill everyone without their knowledge and consent, BUT i understand completely why Jacqui stayed behind to die, she gave up all hopes, no family remains in the world as she's certain of, and just don't bother. as u can see, most of the original survivors still has family, still has hopes that they're families is out there, and just want to see what the world has to offer still, without those most people would just stay and die instantly there.
Bro with your videos im at the point where jenner is right, negan is, whisperers are, crm is, rick is, governor too, shane especially. Wtf but everyone is kinda right and got their points
I think he might be right that it is better to die quick in a suicide however it is not his place to force the issue if survivors choose the difficult path of living in the new world that is their choice to make.
I mean they did found safe places like commonwealth and CRM, even a few more in Fear the walking dead which they destroyed themselves like Victors Tower or Padre’s Island
“Neuro typical people” 😂 It’s 99.9% of the population. It reminds me of the joke about solipsism - to discredit solipsism one only need imagine a convention on these people - arguing over which one is actually real 😅
I never understood why they never took any of the military gear left behind. The tanks, and other vehicles. Even if they cant take them at the moment they should have stashed them for the future.
I was thinking about that on my most recent rewatch. Lots of free gear going to waste. The Zomboid / generic survival game loot-bug inside me was screaming.
@@TheRealCaptainGold I always look at things in terms of either denying the enemy of resources. You take everything, and even the T shirts for rags. What you can't take you either hide, or destroy. The enemy being people in the WD world. I'm really struggling to get through season 9. There was a time I was a diehard fan too. Where I would buy the seasons as they came out on DVD. Then watch, and rewatch over and over again. I still have something like 6 episodes to go. Then 2 more seasons. I finished FTWD finally. Talk about highly unrealistic with the nuke. I liked the early seasons of TWD because it felt raw, real, and like we were following real people during an actual zombie apocalypse. You cam see how the show changes throughout the seasons as culture changes and becomes more PC. Or atleast how AMC thinks we want to see things.
this may sound overtly fatalist but I would've stayed.. I'd rather die a quick, painless death than lose my sanity or be torn apart by the dead. I don't see any tangible point for continuing to live in such a desolate and unloving world, there's no point, I'm a positive person, I have a positive outlook on life, this life but in TWD universe, I would not go on.
So you seem to be forgetting something…..”AS SOON AS THESE DOORS CLOSE, THEY WILL NEVER OPEN AGAIN”……he stated this BEFORE they entered, AND THEY CHOSE TO ENTER, also hod did they actually fair…..NEARLY ALL THE PEOPLE HERE DIED SLOW AGONISING DEATHS 😂😂 as apposed to going out quickly, all they got was either a painful death or if they survived…..they lived in constant pain from the loss they went through
This is an interesting video, but pointless. Youre shoehorning a philosophical position onto someone that was mentally unstable and acting in an irrational way, insane manner. He didn’t arrive at the conclusion on blowing himself up through any kind of reasoning. He thought he was the last man on earth until the survivors showed up on his door step. He was stricken and grieving over the loss of absolutely everything that ever was and he was terrified of facing the future. Either he eventually had the walkers bust in and get him, or they’d get him while he tried to go out to scavenge food or water. There was no future. He was a lab worker, not someone who is equipped to face the world alone, naked and afraid. He had gone insane and decided to take himself out and not face the empty world, and the survivors just happened to show up. Dragging them along in his suicide pact was all he could do. Allowing them to live would be admitting that there’s a chance to survive and that he didn’t have to blow himself up, and he could not face that.
That’s a bizarre take. I think it’s abundantly clear that Jenner is sane and is entirely convinced of his decision. You don’t have to be insane to reach his position. And nothing indicates that he is insane (he let them leave for fuck’s sake lol).
Nah he was black pilled, giving up is never an option! What a disservice to those that came before you and potential future generations that come from you and others you help safe and thrive with. There is definitely more to wanting to live that simply addiction or simply selfish reasons when we would gladly give our lives for our children or loved ones or even to safe a random kid we don’t even know. As Ragnar says “who said you should be happy?” Lol
I think Jenner was a coward who had the sole redeeming quality of relenting and allowing Rick's group a (admittedly slim) chance of surviving his Jim Jones decision. He had absolutely no moral basis to usurp their autonomy of choice. Murder is still murder regardless of intention or circumstance. Jenner was, in truth, the first real villain that the group faced, and they were extremely lucky that he had that one spark of humanity left in him. Of course, if he hadn't, it would have been a very short series.
It actually takes a lot of courage to opt-out, especially when you're not clinically depressed. The act is so antithetical to your genetic makeup, that your body would be screaming for you to abort the process of self-deletion. But yeah, you could say he was an antagonist. He was about ready to euthanize the entire group without consent.
They were extremely lucky that Dale pointed and asked about the "timer" in the first place. Otherwise..."BIG BOOM". They got even more lucky when Rick talked Jenner to allow them to escape.
@@TheRealCaptainGold i agree it takes a certain strength to overcome one's survival instincts, particularly under normal circumstances. Dunno as I'd necessarily call that courage, though. Courage on Jenner's part would have involved holding off on the activation of his doomsday procedure until Rick and his crew had the opportunity to make their own decisions on whether to join him or not. His usurpation of their free will was in no way courageous; it was a coward's way out of confrontation. He was afraid they might talk him out of it, just like Dale talked Andrea out of staying once they had the chance to leave.
And this is the other thing is is that I want to make another point playing magic a gathering Yu-Gi-Oh never forfeit a match until the enemy player finishes you off. Because of this videos philosophy
I just feel like it was a missed opportunity not have him longer in the show, it would've been great to see him come with group, as he was very different to them and his presence alone would create many interesting opportunities, let's also bring up his medical skills, and ultimately, he could've been a Gabriel like character, he'd be shocked by the new world and would adapt to it, and the actor is great, it's such a shame to not take advantage of talent like that.
I tend to agree with that, but it would never have happened because it would require a complete rewrite of the comic book story. So far as that goes, you might as well just create all new characters and set the tale somewhere else in the TWDU. You could call it Fear the....oh, never mind.
@@mappingshaman5280 I'm pretty sure that Hershel would have been a tad better in getting his priorities straight and not risked himself further than he already had.
Reason Jenner wanted to opt out life because he was partially grieving over the loss of his wife as well so his decision might have got convuluted with his emotion, if she was alive and his wife had a different view he woudnt think this way somehow, heck they might have been the hope to identify the virus and find a cure
Not to mention the ending scene of wildfire where it shows him accidentally ruining all his research by spilling a vial of some kind of acid and the decontamination process burns the whole room after he left
@@kevindurant1653And the French.He’d been talking to scientists in France if you remember on line,but as he told Rick and his people,the power went down.
My favorite episode name is "Four walls and a roof" such a badass episode. Gabriel saying "but this is God's house!" After Garreth and crew get mopped and Maggie's response of "no, this is just 4 walls and a roof" has got to be some of the realest dialogue in the series, especially since it's coming from her.
Honestly was one of my favorite episodes, what bugged me was all of the military weapons and equipment they left there, and never came back to salvage any of it during any of the fights with other groups, some continuity would have been great, but wasted time on filler episodes came later clearly
I don't know how much of it could've even been salvageable. The HIT leveled the building, I just rewatched the explosion- it's rubble. And the military cordon was already overrun by that point. They also would've had to leave pretty shortly after, likely due to the sound attracting the walkers, so not much time to scavenge. To top that all off too, the amount of time that passed would likely have resulted in any serviceable pieces being picked up by other groups or individuals along the way prior to later events, and the travel time to Atlanta may've proven more trouble than it'd be worth. Assuming the structure underneath took the same damage from the HIT, even if they managed to clear the rubble (which, why? It's completely unsafe, Atlanta is definitely still a hot zone) I doubt anything would've been in workable order.
@@k-entertainment not only there but also the hospital (where Rick woke up) which I'm assuming that's where Morgan got the bulk of the stash they went back for imo
@@notgonnatellyou2705 Morgan did clear out the rest of the police station and also did a lot of scavenging. I think he almost singlehandedly got all the weapons in the area. Sad part was that during his psychotic break the building they were in burnt down, and it rendered all the weapons useless even if they were recoverable.
let's be honest, there are clear reasons why we are afraid to die: 1) We are probably genetically wired that way, I don't believe that genes that were not afraid of death survived on a great scale, maybe there are a few people who have no fear ingrained in them. 2) We have no idea what is going to happen to our consciousness after death. We are +- stable in this form, and to risk our current state for something possibly worse is stupid. Unless we find out that the afterlife is just better. 3) Other subjective reasons like family or your feelings, philosophy, etc. Being stuck in a positive dopamine loop some may say. Now, was Jenner right? No one knows really, depends on your presumptions. If you think that there is no meaning in the world, we somehow all ended up in, you'll probably think that he is kind of right, at least in something. I personally wouldn't try to force people to die with me hah) But I guess I'd have stayed with the Jenner in that situation, where I have to survive every day and fight fucking zombies that would eat my organs alive when they catch me. I'd rather die in a millisecond than the other way around. Especially I wouldn't want children to be raised in those conditions, but if I had a child I'd have probably gone with the group because of my strong subjective father instincts.
To be fair to Jenner...he warned them repeatedly before allowing them into the facility that if they enter, they're never going to be able to leave. Rick accepts and says they have nowhere else to go anyway. So to say he wanted to "force them" to die with him is a bit odd. Rick didn't bother asking any questions before agreeing. Isn't that Rick's fault? Did he seriously think that building would be an eternal refuge? I've always been of the opinion that deep down, he knew what it meant when he entered, but then didn't have the courage to see his family die too.
@TheRealCaptainGold That's not what i was talking about. I'm saying, from my vantage point and how I interpreted it even all the way back when it first aired, was that it was heavily implied that entering the facility meant death. So, yes, he locks them in the big central operations room with him. But whether they were in that room or not, they would die. I'm talking big picture. If someone tells you "if I let you in, you can NEVER LEAVE" what other meaning would that have than inevitable death? At that point you're only talking about how long until the end. With the world gone, whatever supplies were in that building were all you could ever rely on. So the end will come, sooner or later. He made the decision to enter anyway.
@@Gandalf1232 I think it’s clear the group didn’t think he was being literal. He only told them once “you got stuff to bring in, you do it now. Once this door closes, it stays closed” He didn’t warn them multiple times like you’ve claimed (faulty memory on your end perhaps). We’re talking about a desperate group that had nowhere to go. They aren’t gonna take the statement literally. And considering they don’t know jack s*** about the government, they probably thought it was a paradise. A delusional which was also likely fueled by said aforementioned desperation. Remember, some members of the group actually believed Fort Benning was a good idea lol Jenner locked them in the control room, which was unethical. He had control over that. He didn’t clarify to the group that staying meant incineration either. Saying the door doesn’t open doesn’t imply much. There could be another door. There could be a tunnel system. Get my drift? They would have died if he didn’t answer their questions or let them go. Once they were released, a grenade was able to secure an escape for them. But the doors he used to lock them in? The grenade would’ve never busted that down. At least, according to Jenner - because they’re apparently durable enough to tank a rocket launcher. Placing this on Rick, expecting the group to take Jenner’s singular warning as literal as possible, that’s kinda silly tbh. It’s something you can only do in hindsight and with a misrecollection of events.
@TheRealCaptainGold I could've sworn he mentions more than once, but perhaps you're right, I haven't seen it in a few years. It doesn't change my opinion about Jenner though. To me, your question (and the heart of the dilemma) is: was Jenner right to essentially abandon all hope and die as painlessly as humanly possible at that point? I know what you and many others would argue: it's easy to say yes in hindsight, because we now know that basically everyone there ends up dying, often horrifically. People tend to want to believe in the idea of hope. For me though, what Jenner represents is acceptance. For every nice moment all these people experience after this, they are buried under an avalanche of misery. Sometimes there is no way to win, and the best thing you can do is accept that with dignity. I stand by my opinion on Rick though. I didn't mean to imply that entire group felt as he did, or knew what I think Rick knew. Merely that he himself was ready to die. But his biggest guiding principle was to let people make their own choices, and he didn't want his decision to bind anyone else. Could be 💯 wrong, but that's how I felt when watching that episode
@@Gandalf1232 I think viewing Jenner, narratively speaking, as symbolism for acceptance, is a fine interpretation. I’m just speaking about the ethics and psychology of the characters at the time. The view of Rick you’re presenting doesn’t line up with his actions or dialogue in and before TS19. Even when he was drunk, he thanked Jenner for saving them; clearly admitting he was scared and basically didn’t want he and his family to die. Man really thought the CDC was the doomsday bunker lol
The global population of humans is thought to have once gone as low as 6000, and it still rebounded. In the Walking Dead Universe, between the Commonwealth, Portland, and the Civic Republic, there's at least about 350-400k in the former borders of the United States alone, plus the numerous smaller communities that are now small but stable. Let's say around half a million living people in what was once the United States. So in the North American continent, maybe around 750k, and we'll say around the same for South America. A million in Europe, 2-3 million in Asia, another million between Africa and Australia. The dead can be steadily disposed of over time. There are systematic ways they can be rounded up and destroyed, it's just a matter of having manpower and resources to carry it out. Which for most settlements, there isn't, but these big players could. They'll learn how to monitor herds, funnel them away from major settlements, and eventually lead them to a disposal point. As you reestablish communication infrastructure, you can ensure that travel routes are safe before sending out trucks or trains. And you stand expanding beyond a few walled off cities. Establish farming towns, factory towns, gas refining towns. There's probably enough recyclable metals to not require much mining for awhile, but eventually that as well. Establish universities and trade schools while there are still living experts who can teach the newer generations. And for God's sake: get to making some babies! The people in this universe need to be going at it like RABBITS! In the immediate aftermath of the outbreak, I get it, but it's time for the people of this world to start thinking long term. The short term burden of having more mouths to feed will be vastly superseded by the benefit of having several times more potential farmers, laborers, doctors, sailors, truckers, soldiers, etc in twenty years. And it'll help give the survivors a renewed sense of purpose and unity, to feel it's not just about themselves anymore, but to successfully say we still brought up another generation that will have it better than we did. What a way to show we endured. If fifty years after "the world ended", you're watching your grandson graduate from college, did the world really end? I'd use that as the biggest test: if they can successfully keep society going for another generation, they have a very probable chance of ultimately outlasting the dead and reclaiming the world.
You forgot one thing, everyone is infected, Jenner is kinda right, this is humanities extinction. Just because people can survive in this apocalypse, doesn’t mean they’ll overcome it. The life expectancy will be like the medieval times, medicine will eventually run out and people will start to die from common flus, diseases, diarrhea and every other medical problem that exists, example like diabetes. Also, this virus could evolve and outright kill everyone. They couldn’t find a cure to prevent this from spreading. The greatest threat to our civilization is ourselves, once people die, they’ll come back and eat you when you’re sleeping, like countless times in the show. Hell, not even the whispers could avoid being killed by walkers sometimes, and they live with them
Yes, but it doesn't matter ... ultimately everyone will die and everyone who dies will turn into a walker. Thus, no matter how many walkers you kill, there will ALWAY be more. Not to mention, from Season 2 onward, the problem isn't really the Walkers, it's other humans.
I feel like this video was a cut above most, just because the topic is more philosophical than most of the other “was (insert name) right?” videos. Some of the others are excellent, but sometimes the answers seemed obvious. Well. For me they were. Good shit dude.
Spoiler alert for anyone who hasn’t read the comics: Rick ends up creating a world so safe that huge regions of the east and west grow up never seeing infected in their entire lives. Anyone arguing that they should have died in the CDC is ignoring the inherent good that Rick did in the world before he died. He made a world where parents can raise their child without worrying about walkers ever.
I think Jener just gave up entirely after loosing his wife. Who knew how much he loved her unconditionally. I like to think most people want to go right after loosing their significant other, and with finding no silver linings to a cure to save the world on top of that heavily influenced making his decision to stay alongside the self destruct sequence of the facility sound reasonable to him. It's just a sad reminder that no one is spared the bittersweet anomaly of the human condition. Specifically speaking, the power of connection from one another. when you take that connection away from someone they just will never be the same.
Sophia died alone Dale got ripped apart Shane died losing his mind Lori died giving birth T dog died being ripped apart Glen gets beaten to death by a batt Carl dies from a bite Andria dies from a bite Carol loses her daughter has to kill a girl she had seen as a daughter and watched her adopted sons head on a pike yes it was better for them to die there
With hindsight the characters probably would have preferred to die there, but it wouldn't have been fair to force them to do so. There COULD have been a better world and quality of living and the possibility was worth trying for them hence why they left.
Lori died giving birth to a little girl who lived on and gave hope to a lot of people Shane died losing his mind but before that saved Carl who would go on to bring others together and save Alexandria T-Dog died being ripped apart to save Carol who went on to protect others Andrea died from a bite but not before changing Michonne who would protect and serve the group, Alexandria and go on to give birth to RJ and bring Rick home Carl died but not before saving others, changing his father and saving Siddiq who would father Coco who would survive to see the new world Glenn as Maggie said, started everything, it wouldn't have happened without him Carol did lose children, but she also protected countless others and will go on to help bring Daryl back and maybe even the cure Everything gets a return
Weak argument, everyone dies, and many have horrible deaths, but living is the only thing we have. Glenn found love before dying. Andrea and Dale too. Sophia didn’t die in the books, neither Carl, both survived traumas and grew up to be a happy couple. Carol killed herself in the prison in the books. Not everyone has what it takes to endure life, I know this much, but death isn’t a reason to choose to die, if so, no one would accomplish anything, after all we all will die, and some (many) will have to endure suffering and pain…
Seen as how the only survivors of the CDC now are Rick, Daryl, and Carol it might’ve been better for them all to accept their demise and let the clock run out. Especially for Sophia, Dale, and Shane who all died just after the CDC. Those 3 didn’t even get a chance and suffered very violent and brutal deaths. I think unfortunately staying at the CDC was the best course of action because almost everyone there died anyways.
Do you remember the scene where Rick and Lori talked on the porch of Hershel’s house the night Carl got shot? They were talking about if Carl should live in this world or not, and Lori saying maybe if it was better if he died and didn’t make it. That she didn’t want him to have to grow up in this world where there’s “a knife at our throats every second” same goes for the scene where Rick and Lori talk about the baby. Even if this world is ducked up, you can’t just give up and not try anymore, they gave Judith a chance and Carl a chance. They both made it. (Not talking about Carl dying in later seasons) jaqui (t dogs wife or girlfriend) didn’t have hope like Jenner and decided to stay. The rest of the group did. They wanted to try and survive for as long as they could out there. A CHANCE. even if most of the characters that was at the cdc died, they survived as long as they could and they made an impact on who the rest of the characters became in later seasons. A chance is all that matters. (Call me a yapper if you want, but this is a valid point. It proves Jenner wrong, he had no hope because he had nobody else and the world was dead. The rest of the group looked at the possibilities of what could be out there, once again. They had hope and wanted a chance.)
@@brandonott6103 FI mean that's just your choice then and even then Lori and Carl still died so it's up for debate if it's worth it so you can give up and not try if you want too because that's free will and there are people like me who just think it would not be worth it.
@@TheRealCaptainGold Well and even then the very few people that did survive lost so many people so it's up for so worked out might be too strong but yeah I was just saying everyone should have a choice.
I don't think Jenner was right, but I do understand why he got to the point he did. Because Jenner didn't immediately go to "it's not worth living." He only reached this conclusion after losing what he believed were the only resources he had to try to solve the virus, and after weeks of isolation. Jenner had been working alone to try to find a way to fix things, even losing his wife in the process and having to put her down. His conclusion that it was better to die than live in a world where everyone will eventually die and turn only came after any hope he had was crushed. Jenner was a sad man who had fallen into despair only after he had done everything he could.
Rick - ... Lori - dies in childbirth S3 and finished off by her own son Carl - bitten S8, self-sacrifices prior to turning Shane - killed by Rick, Walker Shane killed by Carl S2 (gunshot attracts the walker herd that destroys Hershel's farm) Andrea - bitten by Walker Milton S3, self-sacrifices when found by Rick & Co. Daryl - King of the New World
I would choose to have stayed, but it's not because I don't want to live, but because I know I wouldn't be able to survive, as I won't be able to survive without blood thinners
That’s the only case we’re I think logically it can be valid. Other then that it would be emotional, but I have mild RA, which is swelling in the joints but other then that and mild pain I can get used to overall. I can still viably live in the walker apocalypse, WWZ I would’ve chosen incineration
@@enriqueperezarce5485let's be real, deciding to stay would be a rational choice for most people. In real life, only the military and those bunker prep nuts are surviving the zombie apocalypse, the average UberEats user isn't gonna survive regardless of their health condition
I think he was right for those of the old world who couldn't handle it, but he wasn't right about the end. Yes the apocalypse might be our extinction events, but that doesn't mean we should just lay down and die. We are LIVING beings, we are the very factor in this universe that is made to defy expectations. Not just our Humanity, but all living beings are capable of adapting, evolving, and thriving. Even in the new world of an apocalypse we can grow and evolve to counter threats. We might go extinct, but we might also adapt, evolve and overcome the new threat. To stay alive is to adapt, to fight, to do anything you can to be the top of the food chain.
I always felt it was wrong to allow Dr. Jenner to off himself, he very well could have been the last person who had even the smallest of chances to create a vaccine for the virus, even if the chance is one in a billion Rick should have convinced him to stay alive, afterall the generators powering the place could have gotten more fuel, there would be plenty of fuel around for it
You know what fucks me up? jenner had been at it for months he said, working on it for ages, with other doctors for some time. TS-19 means there were 18 before for them to test probably and TS-19 was the Einstein of the lab helping them until then. IN ALL THAT TIME, HE DOESN'T KNOW IF ITS A VIRUS, FUNGUS,BATERIA... I could of worked it out if i was in the CDC building on my own with 1 sample, and i'm just a nurse. WHAT was he doing, trying to cure it without identifying it? pathetic. It's in your own body according to him, so we would of had the sample without ever going outside the building.
Doctors don’t really live long in the show, but I mean, I could see both sides of the argument on the one hand general was right in that if these will ultimately take over the world it’s not worth living, but then I could see Rick side and that they still try to fight for a good life anyway.
No and no. Life is full of pain, even without zombies. The question is if life is worthy all the trouble, and to me, yes. Everyone is entitled to their opinion in this matter, and while is terrifying to imagine being eaten alive by zombies, the hardships that such event would cause aren’t that different from other historical events, and even our modern life has its own hardships and struggles.
so because how slow the walkers are after season 2 because they were at a light job chasing shane and otis... humanity would win that fight we would outlive the undead since rotting bodies would ALL be ate up by swarms of bugs and other animals a lone hardened fighter with a melee weapon and armor could take down a horde one at a time with a melee weapon it would take a long time but if u take on one at a time
While it obviously has yet to kill me, I have been hit 21 separate cars, run over by an 8 ton truck, from ankles to rib cage, and crashed my Harley going across 4 lanes of highway. Pain is living, lack of pain means you have simply stopped living. I know every doctor has some sort of pain scale, but have you ever been asked 1 to 10 how happy you are? Have you seen the chart and been asked every time you see a doctor. a dentist, a therapist, etc.?
I think the position is only worth debate at all if it is a choice. When Jenner took choice out of the equation, when he refused (albeit briefly) to consider that other people may view the issue differently even if it ultimately is a subjective viewpoint, that's when he was objectively in the wrong. Choice is all we have in a world like this. Taking it away from people because you think you know better is wrong. If you want to die, to avoid pain and suffering, that is your choice: But it's not a choice you can make for other people. Not even under the most awful circumstances is that your choice to make for them. I think those saying that your 'being a quitter' by taking the 'easy' way out here is sort of reductive. It's not a way out, it's just an end. There's no escape in death, just the cessation of existence. Happiness, misery, pain, pleasure, everything just ends. This isn't really an issue that has a definitive answer as to it's correctness or not. It's dependant on the person making the choice, and more importantly, why, rather than when or how. Humans want to live. It's in our nature as living things, our most basic and fundamental instinct is to survive. When someone wants to die, it's not because they actually want to die most of the time. It's because they see no other options in the future to prosper. For my own part, I think the decision to kill oneself is only even on the table, even theoretically, if the 'why' to my despair doesn't have a clear, solveable answer. Maybe not even then. I think I'd be able to find new 'whys' even if I couldn't solve my current ones. Pro-mortalism is bad because, as it was said in your video, it's presented as a one-size fits all solution. In my mind, killing all humanity (especially by force) because it'd be better for them even on a subjective level is just ridiculous, but when it comes down to presenting suicide as a potential way out of assured pain and misery, it becomes far more grey. To me, the choice is what matters. It's for the individual to weight if they want to live or die or not for their own reasons, not someone elses.
This reminds me of how the Forerunners of HALO viewed all existence. They called ALL Conscious Existence "Sweetness". And they viewed All "Sweetness" as important and worth going through. The pleasurable along with the painful.
Honestly I think Jenner was right on the first point because he told the group that if they enter they don't leave, even if the group didn't know the CDC was going to explode Jenner already had established that the group would have to be commited to staying in it regardless of the situation inside, for all they know the CDC could have a one of it's patogens released inside which is why Jenner didn't want to open at first.
While i do agree that life in the world of the Walking dead would be a nightmare, especially if you've already lost all your loved ones noone should force others to follow them in death without their consent. If others wished to emulate his actions they could ask to stay with him and die but forcing them to die with you is just plain murder without any excuse.
Jenner is wrong but I think he at the end let them choose and that shows he's not a bad person he does truly care about them. He has a very understandable worldview and it highly depends on how you want to go about things in the apocalypse really. Do you want to treat it more as a game where you try and get a high score or do you see the extreme odds and give in
The world used to be cruel like this. Current society has gotten used to the comforts of being civilized and living long lives. Dying from wild animals or other humans used to be daily life for our ancestors. I dont get why so many groups came across each other in the show. Seems like this would be more rare. I wouldve def gone far out into the mountains and grown my own food. You would still have to worry about wild predators but i doubt zombies would be able to get through this forests and its unlikely youd come across people. Making rhe odd run into town would happen but if you chose the location wisely i think you could easily find a town that is small enough that youd have supplies for a long time. Maybe youd come across people/walkers in the town, but the strat if covering yourself in zombie guts or dressing up as a zombie seems to be very effective and seemed underutilized by the group. Michonne walked with zombies and they had no idea. I'm not saying it would be easy to do but over time the zombies would die off bc himans would procreate and the children would be raised to have those skills to survive.
Radiation from nuclear reactors would be a problem, even if they managed to turn them off they would still need running water for years to cool down, no healtcare. Average life span woulf be cut in half for any survivors
I'm subscribing. The knowledge of theology, psychology, combined with The walking Dead is perfect. There's no better teaching tool than the shows you watch for fun. And a good teacher 👍🏿
You make a lot of great, logical points. However, in reference to Jenner offing himself, you say "he didn't get to choose how he enter this life, hence it stands to say that he ought to have the choice in how he exits this plain of existence. " The opposite would be more logical. We don't get to choose being born, hence we shouldn't be able to choose how we die.
Darabond did a amazing job with this episode and character in the first season of the show, too bad that AMC didn't value his ideas and vision back then... Kirkman also didn't support the dude at all, if they kept him as showrunner, the show wouldn't have slowly decayed over time like it did through the next seasons
Jenner was trying to get the group to understand his mercy. In his mind compared to 99% of the world Rick’s group is lucky to have a quick painless death. I think he was always going to let them out if they truly refuted long enough by agreeing yeah it’s probably going to suck but let us try.
When I first watched TWD I alwsys told myself I would have wanted to keep fighting for survival BUT had I known what Jenner told Rick in secret, I would have chosen to stay for the decontamination
Edge lord: yeah, the only logical way of seeing things is pro-mortalism because, see... (proceeds to bore you to death with an untenable suite of logical fallacies) Me: hands him a gun so he can unalive himself if his view is so logical EL: well, ackchyually...
Ive said for many years zombies come im taking myself out cant live in my absolute worst nightmare and i have a little 3 year old i couldnt imagine him growing up like that or to loose him in such a horrible way. My anxiety could neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr in this world learn to cope. I also have MAJOR TRUST ISSUES i was not built for the zombie apocalypse
I absolutely loved this episode. It's one of my top five favorites! It presents intriguing existential questions that all of us would face if we found ourselves in this scenario or one like it. What I found confusing about Dr. Jenner's perspective is how easily he seemed to give up, though. He had unique insights into what this disease was. Instead of trying to save the information and pass it on to other survivors he just hit a wall and decided to check out. I don't find his position realistic. I'm a veteran, and spent some significant time deployed. During some rather bleak moments I found that most human beings generally desire to live - even if that life would be difficult. No objective, rational person, seeks out death or would choose death over even a small likelihood of worthy survival. It's a biological urge - to live. And Dr. Jenner was uniquely positioned to help humanity continue fighting the Wildfire virus. Even if HE decided to check out, why wouldn't he do everything he could to pass on what he learned...to our knowledge he did NOT do this, unless I missed it elsewhere in TWD universe. To the point of your video though, I think it boils down to one simple question. Do human beings have the right to deprive others of their agency, their ability to make choices about how they exit this life specifically...To me, the answer is NO unless they have delegated that decision making authority via a power of attorney. The only other exception I would acknowledge is when a person(s) puts themselves in a position where they reasonably know or should've known that there's a high likelihood their agency could be taken from them (e.g. war, or committing a crime, etc.)
Honestly while I don’t agree with Jenner, I respect his decision, he only wanted what was, let’s be honest, the best end for everyone, and since then, he was right, look at what’s happened T dog. Dead to a walker Dale. Dead to the walker that attacked Carl in the woods Sophia, turned by a walker Andrea, dead from a zombified Milton Hershel, dead from the governer Tyrese, dead from a walker bite Bob, dead from a walker bite Beth, killed by corrupt police officers who tried to maintain their status in the apocalypse Noah, killed by a horde of walkers Deanna, killed by a walker Carl, killed by a walker Nothing but death and despair, and as we speak Rick is in the middle of a crisis with a cultist group along with michonne, everyone has died since this episode besides Maggie, Rick, carol, and daryl, and you could say Judith in a sense.
Because there is a cure he’s wrong but it’s a very risky journey to survive till someone discovers a cure. Of course the cure isn’t in the original show just the spin-offs.
Whether he was right or not, it wasn't his choice to make. You can't deny others the agency of deciding for themselves, and in the act of doing so he is in fact manifesting the dark world he believes already exists. He's almost creating a paradox where the world isn't worth living because I am deciding to end your lives against your will, thus living in a world we shouldn't want to live in, because he has created those conditions in part himself.
This was my favorite episode of the show and, consequently, was the capstone before the beginning of a gradual decline in my interest with it. The reason being, I hoped that the ideas explored in this episode would go on to further story branches about the study of the zombies and a search for a possible cure. See, for me, the most interesting part of zombie fiction is the zombie problem itself. I know the show (and the comic) were decidedly in the camp of simply exploring "post-apocalypse" psychology and what Humanity might become in the wake of such an event. Ironically enough, the very walking dead for which the franchise was named would simply turn into window dressing. They could have been replaced with anything. Man-hunting robots, aliens, mutant alligators...it would have played out the same. I know it was naive of me to look for a more "Return of the Living Dead" type of exploration of the zombies themselves from this show but this episode was responsible for sparking that hope...which sadly never came to fruition.
jenner was wrong, imagine humanity giving up during the black plague especially when superstitious people would've thought the world was ending yet continued to live on, 50 years later the Renaissance happened which launched humanity to great cultural, artistic and social changes.
@@TheRealCaptainGold Jenner's option would've been the best option for them. Surviving on their own terms was the next best thing and when it came to survival Shane was right.
