@@melancholyman369 Pretty much from what I remember there were some DARPA trials, the idea was basicly rather than having regular kevlar armor reinforced with plates/ceramics that would basicly be only good for one hit but covered a sizeable area, that you'd have numerous smaller ceramic scales of sorts, that meant that the vest/armor didnt become immediatly useless as it is very unlikely that you get hit in the same exact spot several times and therefore you'd later on only need to replace the respectively broken individual scales. No clue what became of that though tbh.
@@MajorCoolD I remember some random youtube comment alleging that the damn things wouldn't stay together. It was small plates held together by a soft plastic coating, that in some conditions didn't hold the plates firmly enough, so a round could, if it hit the plate in the right spot, knock the plate loose and keep enough energy to get through. And because there were lots of plates, there were lots of right spots.
If someone is stabbing _up_ at you, you have a serious problem. The scales are not going to be very protective in that scenario. Slightly less flexible than normal chainmail too, I think
One thing about Scale Mail I once heard is that Roman Legionaries in the east would prefer Scale Armor than Chainmail mainly because it's said Scale resist Arrows and missiles much better while Chainmail are better at resisting swords and spears.
sort of makes sense, chain mail provides better coverage, while scale provides better protection provided the attacks don't slip between the scales ( which a well placed thrust from a sword or spear might be able to do.)
@@Interrobang212 yep, one seen reason for Scale Armor missile resistance is all of them overlaps pointing down, where missiles will often come from above, basically sloped armor, where Chainmail are better at being both main and secondary armor since it's basically iron cloths.
Chainmail links can be split fairly easily by powerful war bows. Scales, provided they are laid out well, will logically do much better against arrows.
@Interrobang212. That is probably why the Romans later adopted lamellar. Lamellar has the benefits of scale with less weaknesses. Lamellar are armor plates attached to other plates at multiple points and with more overlap, so it is far less likely that swords and spears could find/dig its way around or between the scales.
Sir Buttycheeks the Caked, the mighty clap of his armored cheeks instilled more fear in the hearts of the enemy than the roar of a hundred warhorses hooves on the ground
yeah like that was my first thought, definitely not as effective as lamellar/brigandine which keeps the plates from flapping. important to note tho they’d all still be weak to thrusts to some degree, even plate could be penetrated in weaker areas with enough force.
@@jimbokilo they did if their main concern was a guy with a dagger that could sneak in, but for most of the time the main threat were arrows falling down
Which wouldn't really have been a common problem, assuming that situations where the enemy is below you (such as fighting on sloped ground with the enemy lower down, or defending a wall from the battlements or such) wouldn't be too common. Having the low ground is scale armour's advantage. Though there were designs which included a way to fasten the scales at the bottom to prevent that.
I like these thought provocking debates. It may not have a clear answer, but it does exercise the mind. Its like comparing an AK47 (and variants) and M16 (and variants)
And just like those debates, it seems like it's what you want specifically. Want protection from arrows and slicing? Chainmail. Going again clubs, maces, and flails? Scaled sounds better.
@@AntonioPerez-wf2lf scale was arguably better against arrows than chain, at least bodkin type arrows, as they couldn't pierce the rings and split them open. However, scale was also heavier and couldn't be placed over joints like chain could
@dragon12234 I think there may be classical Roman Empire era scale armor (maybe it was Dacian armor) with scales that have short sleeves that protects the upper limbs. Either way, this is probably why the Romans later adopted lamellar and why lamellar was used more than scale in places like East Asia. Lamellar connects plate to plate at multiple points and doesn't need a backing, allowing it to cover limbs more easily. There are lamellar armors with full armor sleeves that goes down to the elbows and some even to the hands like a full chainmail hauberk.
Interestingly, full plate didn't require that much strength. The armor was designed such that when properly worn it distributed the weight very evenly over the wearer's body. Think holding a heavy backpack vs wearing it with the straps properly adjusted.
@@DerekIcelord welcome to the world of unrealistically high stat requirements. One thing I need more points to Int to cast spells, the next thing, I gotta have to allocate more to phakin Cons just not to die from the sheer madness of it all.
@@DerekIcelordright, it wouldn’t be a strength requirement, it would more realistically either be dexterity or endurance requirement. Cause a battle ready suit of plate armor is at most 50 lbs? The lighter leaning towards 30lbs. But that would be a whole lot more taxing, cause overheating and such.
@@DerekIcelord I took a "King Arthur in Art, Literature, and History" class in college and the professor had a collection of replica armors brought in for us to try on after finals and it was actually shocking how easy the platemail was to move around in (if you were the approximate right size) and the chainmail was actually way more difficult
One of the disadvantages of scale armour was that the opponent could stab you upwards and get a blade between two scales. That wouldn't be the case in chain mail because the rings work the same in all directions. But there are different techniques of making scale armour. Long and expensive-one is made in such a way that the scales are connected by rings which form some kind of chain mail below a scale mail and would probably protect you against upward stabs. The cheaper and easier is that you just sew scales on gambeson and in that case it would be easier to put a knife between two scales all the way through.
Some patterns of scale armor such as those from the late Roman Empire have scales reinforced with 4 stitches on top making it almost impossible to slide under
To actually do that you'd have to get very close, and manage to bypass the opponent's shield. Which wouldn't be easy while he and all his buddies around him are poking at you with their spears.
Not mentioned in the video, due to lack of time, no doubt, but a chief drawback of scale armor was that the scales had to be laced or wired into a textile backing, so the armor was effectively a cloth shirt with iron scales. That's all well and good (you wouldn't wear chain directly against the skin, after all) until it gets wet and you realize it's going to stay wet for a while and get pretty gross without an easy way to wash it. In addition, the lacing was something of a weak point, especially if the textiles were rotting, since the thread or wire was more likely to break and shed the scale (or row of scales) from the shirt than it would be for a riveted iron ring in chain armor to break.
QUESTION - Most people go on about which armour is better in what circumstance. However I've always wondered the medieval industrial technology capability factored in. i.e. does each one require specific training, or would the village blacksmith 'figure it out' between horseshoes, does each one require a different quality of metal; so if a Lord wanted to outfit his men in 'the best' would they need to have the support of both a good supply of raw materials, expertise etc or do you just send off an order to the dude in the big city, and what u buy is more about what u can afford?
That's a good question. Scale Mail would be technically easier to make, few specialized tools required, but more time intensive for the Smith. Chainmail was popular because the Smith could focus on drawing the wire to make the chain, which required a unique tool to do the job quickly and consistently. After the wire is made apprentices can do the simple and tedious process of making the rings and either the Smith or best apprentice rivet the rings together into a mesh. Mind you riveted mail performs far better than non riveted and there are processes that mint the rings like coins like in the middle east. I don't know if scale performs overall better than chain but from what I have read and discussed that chain was easier to mass manufacture which made it the winner in the armor war because even a cheap piece of sub optimal armor is better than no armor at all, not to say if chain mail is bad just it's a common choice for a reason.
The evolution of armour and weapons really depends a lot on what kind combat enviroment the culture has and what resources do they have. There is no tech tree like seen in games.
@@oscaranderson5719 I mean that's a bit different lolol that's no different of course the best stuff is the most expensive. If we're talking outfitting an army that's a different thought too. But if you're some mercenary shopping for armor your saving up for plate no matter what except maybe if your at sea alot
@@mondaysinsanity8193yes and no, if your a archer for example you really can’t wear full plate unless you remove the shoulder pauldrons. More over by the time plate armor is even less ventilated than other armor like lamellar so you would overheat in warmer places
@@hiimryan2388 a. Depends on the armor plate armor is always custom. B. In truly hot places heat is controlled not by reducing clothing but by insulation wear some light robes over it all and it's just weight that's the difference.
When I teach my students about armor, I explain it like this: the bigger your metal pieces, the harder it is to get the right fit and also have good coverage, which makes it more expensive. From what I've read, it seems like scale is older than chain.
Scale is definitely older, chainmail was first used butted by the celts after the Bronze Age collapse while scale has been used since like forever as it could be made from leather
Not to mention, the construction method used generally allowed for thrusts up between the scales to penetrate easier that with chainmail. Not saying it was easy. Just easier relative to mail. Give and take 🤷🏽♂️
Yes and no, by the time of the late Roman Empire scales had 4 stitches instead of the previous 2 making upward thrusts nearly impossible unless your really digging for it
@hiimryan2388 It depends on the scales location within the weave pattern. And like I said anyways, it's not just flat out easy, even with earlier pattern designs. If it was so easy people wouldn't have worn it. It's just that it was a minor internal flaw in exchange for the benefit of more structure. Same with mail and it's lack of structure.
chain with a gambeson provides excellent defense against concussive attacks. the spike end of a warhammer is what excelled at piercing mail and gambeson and punching a nice hole into somebody, not the hammer end. while thrusting is in fact the weakness of chain, its still not easy. chain is surprisingly more resistant to thrusts than people give it credit for. its still the best way to defeat chain, but again, its not easy. mail will stop thrusts, and you need to really deliver a strong thrust to go through the armor. its not as rock-paper-scissory as one may think. skallagrim even did a pretty good demonstration against a ballistic head and torso. he put a padded coif and a mail coif on the head, struck it with a sword, and then inspected the damage. the skull was still fractured through the mail and gambeson. and remember, that was with just a sword! a weapon that doesnt deliver nearly as much blunt force as other common weapons like a pole axe or a warhammer. its not until you put a steel skull cap over the padded coif and under the mail coif that your skull wont crack from the force of a sword swing. this is how they actually did it back then, and plenty of period sources corroborate this.
Usually while wearing chain mail you would have a gamberson underneath, this would offer good enough protection for a few blunt attacks, and the chain would protect agaisnt slashing attacks. What the Chain Mail fails at is piercing, such as arrows and spears when compared to scale that protect against this better, aswell as blunt. When you mention plate at the end, it did indeed offer the best protection, which is why the knights would try and force their opponent on the ground and stick their bladed weapon between the plates, or if they only had a Hammer, crush their armor.
The blunt attack makes sense but I have always been under the impression that the main reason for scale male was it it better at shedding arrows aimed at it.
I remember as a kid coming up with scale mail as an armor concept and thinking that nobody had ever thought of it, not doing any research into the concept and being so pleased with myself... god I wish I were still that naïve sometimes.
One advantage that chainmail has over scalemail is moveability, scales can only bend one way, but chains can bend however You want. This was probably not a HUGE deal, but i imagine chainmail would be more comfortable to wear.
Great video. At risk of sounding pedantic though (which I am) it’s just scale armour and mail. I suspect this may have been covered in earlier videos; mail just means armour made out of interlocking rings, usually iron, although brass rings were also used for decorative edging etc.
though more significantly in the times it was used at least in the Roman Empire, that it was the production ease that gave it its continued use, though mail was still greatly preferred...
I made a set once from high carbon steel scales. It's just insanely heavy and noisy. Chain is plenty loud and heavy itself, scale is worse. It lacks the flexibility of chain too and there are weak gaps if you can slide a blade underneath the scales. It resists straight on blows better than chain, but still not as good as plates. Having the scales hang by a single point also seems like a weakness, not a wonder why lamellar was used all over the world for as long as chainmail while scale wasn't all too common.
regarding weight, was this complemented by wearing belts to shift some weight to the waist? It won't make them lighter obviously, but at least not dump it all to the shoulders.
Lamellar didn't last as long as maille. It largely went away by the end of the medieval period. Both the middle east and far east has switched to plated maille or brigandine as their "stiffer than maille" armor.
@@majungasaurusaaaa Considering the plate n' maille's main fasthener is the chain ring themselves, it sure is easier to maintain compared to lacings used to tie lamellar together.
This issue with scale mail is that, while better than regular maille in a lot of aspects, it took far longer to make, required more advanced metallurgy to make the small plates of good enough quality to be better, was far harder to maintain, and much heavier and easier to get dirty. Scale has most of its drawbacks in construction and maintenance, like lamellar. Also, if a blow or attack struck up and underneath the scales they effectively didn't do much of anything for you.
Fun fact. In some parts of PLC winged hussars preffered scale mail to standard couriass as it gave better coverage at a cost of frontal protection against musket rounds. Most popular among nobility of modern day Belorus. That obviously had to be reflected with tactic (as they could not do some of the Swiss army tactics they where used to) so to reflect that they where calling themselves "armoured commrades" (towarzysz pancerni) instead of "hussar commrades" (towarzysz hussarski). Quite obviously choice of scale mail limited them from frontal charge on musketeer lines, engaging as in couriasseer tacticts against actual couriasseers but probably didn't limit their effectiveness in hand to hand combat, or limiting their effectiveness against Turkish style horse archers.
I completely understand the concept that types of armour were better and worse than others depending on the situation. Which would be the best overall armour to serve as a 'jack-of-all-trades'? Won't be the best, but will hold up decently enough in whatever situation your in
Different tools for different occasions. There are some situations where a Gambison alone is enough. For those that don't know a Gambison is a padded coat UNDER most armour to keep it off your skin and disperse impacts better. They were so well layered they could stop a knife slash.
The padded undercoat was a lot thinner than the gambeson. The medieval people would call it "aketon" or "arming doublet". It was far thinner than a gambeson, which was meant to be stand alone armor and was stiff, heavy and very bulky and certainly wouldn't fit under a metal armor suit.
This actually makes a ton of sense. You should do a deep dive on the American dragon armor. Theres a lot of controversy around it. Your explanation of distribution of a hit makes sense but allegedly they say that wasn’t a problem.
If you're talking about the modern dragonscale, the whole thing was a massive scam. It catastrophically failed it's trials in adverse enviromental conditions and then the company disappeared.
@@pakman184 Yeah but it didn’t though. It failed one test when it was left dipped in a 55 gallon drum of diesel fuel. They said the threading failed not the ceramic or the Spaulding protection.
I have a scale mail tunic made from an old butchers apron. But something long and narrow, like a stiletto or small daggers, can easily get between the scales and find the vital gooie bits.
This is where this dude is in his element. He lacks the eloquence to tell broad history stories. But when it is some specific question about a weapon or armour he is spot on.
Scale is, as many have already mentioned, vulnerable to upward stabs. In addition, it tended to be less flexible than chain, so it could only reasonably be used on the torso. You'd need to add on more protection with chain or plate arm and leg armor. Possible for knights or the more organized Romans, not so much for a less well funded levy or man at arms
I've worn both scale and mail, Scale is noisier, but sheds the rain much better, it is also likely more comfortable, though mail is more flexible, Plate is the least flexible but supports it's own weight better. However, plate dents, scale and mail don't retain big dents, once that breastplate is bent in half, all you can do with it is to cook in it.
Scalemaille in difference to Chainmaille was sawn on a Shirt like leather or linnen. The disadvantage of scales where that a thrust could slide unser the scales and pierce the wearer without ressistance
Disadvantage: blades could more easily slide up under the scales for penetration compared to chain. That's it. Main difference is scale is better vs long range or bludgeoning attacks, chain is better vs close range blades.
Scale mail was a significant upgrade because underneath all the padding it was good at deflecting arrows after penetrating the flat surface because chain mail was very weak against arrows. That's why scale mail was originally invented historically
Did you know that the US Military was pitched Scale Mail style body armor for their soldiers but it failed because of a design flaw? (They used Adhesive to stick parts of it together and that would fail in hot weather)
I dabble in Buhurt on a rookie level. Learned about this in an all vs all fight a few weeks ago. My opponent used a “suicide takedown “ and yoinked me down so I fell onto his chest. I was wearing a standard brigandine and he was wearing lamellar chest armor. He literally said “WHHHHHHOOOOOOFFFF” when I landed as it smushed all the air out of him. I was fine
I think the reason it wasn't more common is that it was much more expensive, so people who could afford it would be more likely to wear plate. I don't know though.
@@Nerobyrne This is one possible reason, however Scale Armor was common in the Eastern regions of the HRE, due to its protection against missiles. I actually believe its because most fantasy copies Germanic fantastical elements, so chainmail is the default norm in most minds.
It's probably because scale armour was more popular in the places of the Eastern half of the Roman Empire and the Persian Empire. History in the West is, unsurprisingly, Western centric.
@@kannonpq but then the question becomes, why wasn't it popular there, too? I admit that what you mentioned likely led to me not knowing it was actually popular in other areas. I agree with the criticism that fantasy is too focused on western Europe. I like to make it too 😅
@@Nerobyrne It's like the guy in the short said: Different weapons and fighting styles in the East and the West caused their weapons and armor to evolve down similar but different paths. In the East where mounted archery was popular you'd armor yourself with scale to counter that. In the West where heavy close in weapons were popular you use chain/plate to counter it.
I wonder how well Roman armor compared with medieval armor I saw a video where the the Roman lorica actually kept a ballista from penetrating. But I am sure the person wearing it wouldn’t have been a happy camper. 😂
scale armour offers great protection and looks badass - only downside is when you had to reapir it, then its the rason why chainmail was most used armour for more than 1000years.
Scale has a huge weakness though. You can get through the gaps if you thrust from below, as scales ovelap on top and leave a weak point from below. Not good when you're on horseback and fighting someone with a spear. Chainmail doesn't have this problem. But it has others.
Thanks I thought scale mail was exclusively a fantasy thing bc it never occured to me you could make metal scales. I thought they were like dragon scales only.
I believe it was also better against piercing attacks meant to exploit the fact that piercing chainmail only meant breaking one chain loop. I believe it lacked popularity due to an extremely high price tag, due to the skill needed to make such armour however.
That museum display you showed wasn't scale mail- it was a tunic made from the pelt of an animal called a pangolin that grows large overlapping fingernail-like scales from it's skin (they're basically real-life sandshrews from Pokémon). If I remember right that particular piece was a gift to king George III, and if you've never heard of or seen a pangolin before it's probably because every species is endangered. They are the most heavily poached mammal in the world because traditional medicines in several African and Asian countries claim that the scales provide a myriad of health benefits, despite it being common knowledge that they're made of the exact same substance as hair and fingernails and hooves of every other mammal on the planet.
Underneath armor like chainmail and plate (and probably scale and lamellar too) is a thick, heavy insulating coat called a gambeson usually made of wool, the purpose of which is to absorb blunt force impacts as well as to prevent chafing in the case of chainmail. Then you put on your layer of heavy metal armor over it. It's gonna get really hot fighting for several hours in that getup.
We have accounts of napoleonic cuirassiers complaining how hot and heavy their armor was. And they were wearing far less than medieval heavy cavalry. But during medieval times, the armor was guaranteed to help you do your job and survive. And it was an expensive status symbol so people didn't complain. Napoleonic cuirassiers were standard issued their cuirasses and their effectiveness was situational at best. Hence the "do I really have to wear this crap?" attitude.
It is important to note that scale armor and mail existed in the same time period, we have no archeological evidence (to my knowlege) for scale armor in the roman-german empire, which would later be known as the HRE. There are a few images of what looks like scale armor in western sources (most prominently the Codex Manesse i.e. große Heidelberger Liederhandschrift), but it is unclear if those really show scale armor. As far as we can say scale was only really used in the byzantine sphere of influence, while mail was used in both the HRE and byzantium.
Except at the times when scalemail and chainmail were in the hight of their use we didn't have the technology to build plate armour, which is actually the reason lamilar was invented, we couldn't make strong enough body sized plates so we made smaller plates and stacked them.
@hiimryan2388 are you talking about Dendra armor? If so then no not really, that would more be considered something like lamilar since the whole armour is one big piece all together, the extra layers can't be removed they are woven into the armour it's self where as in plate armour you have one big solid plate that covers you, anything else added on would be attached rather than an integral piece of the armour. Massive plates does not mean plate armour, plate armour is a big plate that covers the user, this is just lamilar with thick plates.
@@PRESIDENT_LEMON If that's the case then do you consider lorica segmentata plate armor or do you consider it lamellar armor? another thing to add is that for lamellar armor also have detachable pieces so that doesn't make sense (both have detachable pauldrons and for lamellar sometimes the thigh protection and small chest plate is detachable).
@@hiimryan2388 Lorica segmentata definatly doesnt count as plate armour and is more of something akin to lamilar just with larger overlapping plates. and yes there are detachable pieces in the dendra armour, what I was bringing up is the lower section isn't a detachable piece, it is woven into the upper chest covering (if you look at the artefacts they actually dug up and not some reproductions people have made) this would make it more akin to lorica segmentata. but I will concede some points that there are some of what we might call plate armour in the ancient era, like the muscle cuirass, but even though these armours existed other types of armour like chainmail and lamilar were preferred as it costed a lot of money to make plate and these things were much more easy to repair.
Scale armor's biggest problem is that the scales can shift and sometimes attacks slip through. Especially if you are say a rider bring attacked from the ground.
Well scale male was considered an actual armor type whereas chain male could be used as a type of armor was still mostly designed to be worn underneath actual plate armor. Or so I’ve always thought
@@Mare_Man I don't know if it was meant to be effective, just that sets of it existed. Maybe there's something on it in the Canterlot Library? I know you practically live there.
Scale mail was more of a cheaper answer to arrows. That's it. That's what scale mail was designed for. Is it a perfect defense for that? No. However, it's a league better than chain mail. Also, it's actually cheaper to make, less time intensive. It could be produced far better than chain mail, so they made that.
I need to hear what disadvantages where compared to chain mail more. Like was it just more costly? Did piercing work better on it in general? Also why would padding beneath plate mail not be a better (bit much more costly option).
I am not an expert but one of the disadvantages of scale armour was that the opponent could stab you upwards and get a blade between two scales. That wouldn't be the case in chain mail because the rings work the same in all directions. But there are different techniques of making scale armour. Long and expensive-one is made in such a way that the scales are connected by rings which form some kind of chain mail below a scale mail and would probably protect you against upward stabs. The cheaper and easier is that you just sew scales on gambeson and in that case it would be easier to put a knife between two scales all the way through.
@@vepersuper9183 This same disadvantage applies to thrusts with swords and spears. In general though - Scale Armor was used to protect better against missile weapons by the HRE of the east, an Empire that isn't ROman, Isn't Holy, and not an empire, but you understand what I mean. Where Missile weapons were dominant, scale was used more. Where more shield and spear combat was dominant, chain was used more. Ultimately the answer is "It Depends."
@kannonpq Scale was also used by the Roman Republic and the classical Roman Empire (both the united empire, and later the Eastern + Western Roman Empire). There are stone depictions (in Romania) of Trajan's core legionary infantry invading Dacia wearing chainmail and scale armor. It was not something only used by the medieval Holy Roman Empire (HRE) but has a long history with the actual Roman Empire.
The other advantage of scales and lamellar particularly if you lived in china of a place that made contact with it the Chinese we’re able to make almost needle like crossbow bolts that can fit in the gaps of chain mail that’s why after the Chinese find chain mail they barely use it if at all
