Was the YF-23 superior to the F-22? 

I was a teenager during the YF-22/23 fly off and remember the news coverage showing the aircraft. The YF-22 looked like a more modern evolution of existing aircraft like the F-15, while the YF-23 truly looked futuristic to me. I was disappointed when it didn't win.

when i first saw the yf-23, i actually thought it was a 6th gen fighter that US was developing, and then i realised it was a plane of the 1990s...

When I was a kid I grew up in Palmdale, California and I was fortunate enough. To see the YF23 in flight many times

The YF 23 was a damn large beast.

i see yf-23 video i click and like immediately

I worked on the P&W 5000 engines used in the fly-off and one aspect of the thrust vectoring that I've not seen mentioned in video's is how it facilitates Short Take Off performance which was one of the 'desired' specs. During test runs they go full AB then vector up 20 degrees then down 20 degrees with about a second each then back to level thrust. The up vector pushes the tail down before the control surfaces have achieved enough authority then the downward vector pushes the aircraft up and off the tarmac....it's now flying at a positive attitude and having more than 1:1 T/W off it goes. I've not seen a demonstration of this during airshows as it no doubt is more risky than a conventional take-off...but that ability is in there if they ever need it. We were getting regular reports of the Fly-Off and heard that GE guys were phoning back to the plant saying they had it in the bag because they were a bit faster than us....but the AF had changed the fan requirements late and we'd run into problems making the new ones in time so were using the older design which had less performance. The AF knew that it was only a delay and took this into consideration and in reality both engines met EVERY specification and people claiming that GE's were significantly faster are stretching the definition of 'significant'. Slightly is more accurate. Also never mentioned was why the P&W 5000 was chosen over the GE....it was because it was SO much easier to maintain as that had been high on the priority list. Conventional jet engines have so many pipes, wires and fittings that things tend to overlap and lots of things need to be removed to service just one part. That was part of our design that individual components could be replaced with minimal disturbance of others which greatly reduces the time required. The 5000 fastener count of individual part #'s is also very low which simplifies maintenance and the AF really liked this with the maintainers working on both engines universally choosing the P&W as the better engine. Hope this helps add some info.

I really wish the YF-23 and YF-22 shared the same destiny as the F-16 and F/A-18. Both great planes that were ultimately accepted.

My understanding is that the contract mainly went to Lockheed because Northrop already had won the contract for the B2 over Lockheed and they had poured money into the project ($23 billion between 1981 and 1989, including a billion spent on redesigning the aircraft to be able to operate at low altitude), and military planners wanted to make sure they were not putting their eggs in one basket. Or at least that's the stated reason for going with what was on paper a worse aircraft - in practice I would imagine that Lockheed greasing some of the right palms helped too. Shame though, the YF-23 is still an amazing looking aircraft - it looked futuristic in 1990 and IMO it still looks it now. Will be interesting to see if the rumors of a modernized version of the design being sold to Japan for their next generation fighter are true.

Ironically an evolved YF-23 design is what needed now

Best clue: the 6th Gen F-22 replacement is a hell of a lot more similar to the F-23 than the F-22. Same story on the engine chosen for each.

I'm so glad that they didn't scrap the 2 YF-23s, because this design is where future aircraft are headed.

in the 43 years since 1981 it hasn't made any difference which plane was better. I'm sure though Yf23 could have shot down that balloon just as well as the F-22 did. Worrying about maneuverability at low air speeds over the ability for a infrared missile to lock on seemed silly.

7:45 saweet JEEZUS what a gorgeous framing!!

If you haven't I would encourage you to watch the documentary about the YF23 and its test footage, It seriously blew my mind when I saw the fly by wire systems detecting small bumps in the runway and moving the flight control surfaces accordingly, truly impressive for its time!

Pretty crazy to realise that the less-capable plane from that 1990s competition is still unmatched 30-some years down the road

YF-23’s top speed is still classified, and that alone says something.

GREAT video!! About twenty years ago I had a conversation with one of the engineers who worked on the YF-23. He told me that the YF-23 beat the YF-22 by ten decibels at the radar range. (No, he did not tell me what angles nor what radar frequencies.) If my math is correct, this would imply a reduction in detection range of about 44 percent.

Jack Northrup was always ahead of the curve. YB-49 for example. That creative genius tended to work against him. Until years later the consensus of the experts was that Northrup was right.

One of the only two protypes of the YF-23 is available for public viewing at the Western Museum of Flight in Torrance, CA. Well worth it.

Ok. I played a very small part of YF-22. But, the point is, I was there. Watching the flight test programs super closely. After all, my job literally depended on it. Point 1: YF-22 was one of the most ambitious and successful flight test programs ever. We did a lot more than we had to. It demonstrated reduced risk for the AF and the taxpayer. You can also see the risk point play out in the AF selecting the P&W engines vs the GE. The Pratt was an evolutionary engine while the GE was revolutionary. Point 2: The YF-22 was a fighter plane that was very stealthy while the 23 was a stealth plane with fighter capability. The 22 aligned better with the lessons learned from Gulf War 1. All that said, I feel that the 23 is one of the most beautiful fighter aircraft ever and I wish it had been produced for a different customer or role. Just to see them flying. Just gorgeous.

Yf23 looks like its closer to what the Air Force is looking for in the NGAD interms of airframe. Of course the main technology breakthrough of NGAD will be the electronics.

I have seen both the YF23 and YF23 prototypes at the US Airforce Museum, both are spectacular. I was surprised you can get so close to them. My read is Lockheed had at the time a much better track record of delivering working aircraft within expected budgets and this was the deciding factor. The USAF did not trust Northrop to deliver the F23 without significant delays and cost overruns.

When they picked the YF-22, I was MAD! I knew something had gone wrong!

It was said below... the YF-22 would have been a better dogfighter. If you're looking for an air dominance fighter, it needs to be able do get into, and dominate, the dogfight. The YF-23 was more stealthy and probably overall faster. Personally, I think BOTH should have been produced. The F-22 would have filled exactly the role it did. A production F-23 would have been a fantastic escort for the B-2 and later B-21 as the F-23 would have been stealthy enough to not give away the presence of a stealth bomber. That's a role and capability that the F-22 probably can't do. Given that some possible designs of the NGAD look like they're derived from the YF-23... this may be what they're going to use the NGAD for.

the yf23 was undoubtedly a stunning looking aircraft

YF-23 was a beauty

In a parellel universe, people are watching this same video and having the same arguements about "what if," just in reverse :-)

The F-22 is more agile, and the YF-23 was more stealthy. The F-22 was chosen to hedge bets, in case it needed to dogfight. But really, by the time of this competition, dogfighting didn't happen anymore. Everything was BVR. The F-22 is an excellent plane, and is still unmatched. But, the YF-23 would have been able to be in service longer, due to better stealth characteristics, and would have been just as deadly as the F-22 in real world scenarios.

The early 90s anime Macross Plus was clearly inspired by the YF-22/23 competition, with one of its planes being clearly based on the YF-23. Everyone should watch Macross Plus.

I've seen the YF-23 up close, and took many pics of her. She is a beautiful plane, and more so in person (I'm probably using terms that are not popular these days like referring to a plane as "She" but I'm old school that way). I got to touch it, walk beneath the fuselage, took many pics of it when it was temporarily parked behind a local Torrance (Ca) business at the outer edge of Zamperini Field, in Torrance, Ca. The version was the gray version, and of course all the Tech was removed ahead of time, (No engines, and canopy was blacked out)as to not be compromised in a public area where she ultimately was put. I pass by her everyday to and from work, and now she's a part of the Western Museum of Flight, Torrance, California where she is proudly displayed. She still looks beautiful, and awe inspiring.

IIRC, one of the determining factors given for selecting the YF-22 was the belief by NAVAIR that the F-22 would be more feasible to adapt a version for carrier use than the YF-23, and there was a thought that (like the F-4 Phantom before it), having the Navy and Air Force use variants of the same basic airframe as the baseline for their primary fighters would be advantageous. Note, theis would have been in addition to the JSF (the program that selexted the F-35). The JSF was going to replace F-16s in the Air Force and F-18s in the Navy, and the ATF/NATF program were going to replace the F-15 and F-14, respectively - this would maintain the planned High/Low mix that had been working so well for both services so far, with a highly capable "top" fighter backed up by a slightly less capable but far more affordable (and, important to the Navy trying to fit the max airframe on a carrier, *smaller* fighter) they could buy and field in larger numbers

As they say, all aircraft have four main dimensions: length, width, height and politics. The YF-23 only got the first three right.

Excellent stuff bro

Two different airplanes built to requirements that evolved during the competition, but LM was more agile in responding. The YF-23 was a beautiful airplane for what the requirements, but thrust vectoring alone would not solve the high AOA configuration performance in that regime with the tech at the time. The single weapons bay was also a problem in the event they had a hung load. I would have loved to see this navalized in a way different than the NATF configuration proposed. It could have been a formidable replacement for the F-14.

The F-23 never found a place in the sky but it will always find a place in our hearts.

I've always said the F-23 should have been the F-14 replacement. It's long range would have been perfect for the Navy. Much better option than the short leg Hornet.

f22 was a peace time fighter, now they wind has changed and we need an evolved yf23

What a shame, wish it would have turned out like the F16 - F18 drama story, would have been kool to have the F23 in the toolbox as well.

I first saw the YF-23 as a child in a video game I was playing and it quickly became my favourite aircraft in the game. Already having a love for aircraft. When I found out that it actually existed in real life I was so excited I kept bothering my grandfather (who shared my interest in aircraft) with questions and information about the plane for weeks.

Awesome video!

Excellent video.

This is by far my new favorite RU-vid channel

"potential purchasers may not be technically astute": you're officially my new diplomatic guru :D

Crazy tech for 1990

I think the real reason why the Northrop YF-23 didn't win the competition was because at that time Northrop had the B-2 contract. As well as huge cost overruns.

I really hope they start up yf23, it has such an innovative design

MAN if only, LOVETHISPLANE, also check out Macross Plus is kinda the story, but one plane being the SU 47 Berkut the other YF 23

Thanks for A Great Video! New Sub Here

Along with XF 32/XF 35. This competition that i was followed. Both of my favorite were lost to the competition 😊

One of the YF-23's can ce viewed at the Western Museum of Flight in Torrance, CA USA.

Yes. Though it likely would've been somewhat more expensive. Not that it matters much when congress "pulls a B-2" and guts procurement sending the per-unit price into the stratosphere anyway.

It all comes down to which aircraft did certain people invest in. Like applying for a job, going through the whole process, and the position is already given to someone.

I wished there were international partners that were interested in the YF-23 so that it could have been like like something similar to why the F-5 was designed - designed for afforable export sales to quickly equipped friendly air forces and naval aviation forces. That way both F-22s and F-23s could have both been in production and in hindsight, it would mean that even with the F-22 production lines canceled and dismantled, the F-23 production facilities setup for export sales would have been still around that the US could have start ordering more F-23s to make up for the less than a hundred F-22s still available now that we're back in the era of great powers competition and Cold War 2.0 with China. It would have been a more viable and tenable option instead of relying on the F-35s to do everything including making up the slack for the lack of F-22s to cement air superiority, which a multirole fighter like the F-35 would never do as well as the F-22 or F-23.

Such a beautiful plane

Would love to see a video about the X-32

same here, i was in high school reading about f22 and f23 in "Aviation"

So the states have retired one stealth design, rejected at least 4 more that made it to prototype stage and now has 2 in service?

This competition was originally for 600+ aircraft. In hindsight, since less than 200 F-22s were ever produced due to budget cuts, they should have gotten both platforms albeit in reduced numbers.

THE MOST RADICAL FIGHTER TO EVER BE PRODUCED IN AVIATION HISTORY! THis thing to this day looks like it stepped out of a a sci fi novel from the year 2080! And I feel the NAVY should have took this design for itself..SHAME! what a beauty! This and the XB-70 Valkyrie are my alltime favorites!

How crazy is it that the US was working on such an advanced technology in the 1980's and the rest of the world is still trying to get to that level

What a beautiful aircraft. It really is a shame that both could not be produced. Northrop had the stealthier design. Time has proven them wise. The NGAD will probably have a similar type of high stealth design with less emphasis on dogfighting. If you have BVR engagement it pretty much comes down to absolute stealth. With the modern engines and electronics of the F-35 it would be a truly formidable aircraft.

Superior in stealth (aka better at BVR) but in agility (aka WVR), that goes to the F-22, now need the best of both, maybe NGAD except 3D thrust vectoring instead of F22 2D?

Not quite the same as an existing type modified for experimental purposes. This was a completely new design competing for a USAF production order. Count me among those who thought it would win.

With the much longer range and reduced radar and IR signatures, the YF-23 could've been developed into an amazing interdictor/strike aircraft.

I think if we knew what we know now, it was a slightly better platform. The reduced agility wouldn't seem to matter with modern missile tech, and how stealth fighters operate. Detect them early, fire missile, defend. These planes should never encounter another plane.

If we had chosen the YF-23, Wed still be making them. They may have 95% the air dominance of the f-22, their applications beyond air dominance would have justified continued production. I am sure they would have outlived the f-23 as well.

Which is better? It is according to the requirements! The YF-23 was more stealthy, the YF-22 was more maneuverable.

Cool plane!.✈️

I agreed. The computer system was not advance enough to run it effectively until now.

Does anyone know why they didn't smooth out the top of the aircraft? It looks like they could have made more internal volume with no impact on drag?

Woulda loved to see the 23* with thrust vectoring

I would expect that the F-22 ended up with some tech and features from the YF-23 integrated into it. I mean it would make sense, take the best of both and merge em. Also maybe they have some Black Widows stowed and ready but ultra secret, aided by the idea that since the F-22 won and is the one in use the F-23 was completely canned and none are flying. If I was in the business of having secret aircraft, that is one way I would operate.

After it entered the service, F-22 needed many improvements to make it reliable. With so much serious work invested in it, with so much capacity for further development, it is absurd that F-23 was not utilized in some form.

I think they should revisit this aircraft today, base the new fxx on the yf23 and just keep upgrading the f22 in its own path to remain dominant

I have read that thrust vectoring is not that useful in air combat as it bleeds off air speed and as fighter pilots say: "speed is life". As a lay person, I still think the YF23 was an opportunity missed by the US Air Force.

They were also worried the YF23 would cost too much, which with hindsight of the numerous costly set backs of the F22 is ironic made worse by the fact the YF23 had a parts that were already in service, the landing gear was from the F18 and modified, the nose and cockpit from the F15. I heard another reason but I don't know how true it is, they picked Lockheed and Boeing was because they wanted companies other than Grumman to work on stealth aircraft, which doesn't really make sense since Lockheed made the F117, maybe it meant newer stealth but idk.

The F-22 is an incredible aircraft but man, the YF-23 is an absolute beauty. Pity they didn't go for both...

It is my understanding that the Japanese, looking at building an indigenous stealth fighter, have been in negotiations with Northrop to use the YF-23 as the starting point.

Imagine what classified fighter jet we have now if we had this in the 90s

anyone else notice how the ai plane from stealth looks like lockheeds 2 possible designs for ngad?

I was in high school during the ATF program. My biological father worked on the YF-23 program.

The F-22 had a smaller radar signature and could super cruise faster.

wow now i know why many people said SU57 is look like YF23 more than F22 what a Beautiful Machine i wish i had a chance to watch them all at some air show but maybe it will never happen 😢

I've never heard or read anything about the YF-23 being able to do mach 2.6. Officially the to speed is mach 1.8 BUT anybody should see the F-15 has a total 50 000 lbs thrust and can do mach 2.5 clean. The YF-23 would have had 70 000 lbs thrust and far better aerodynamics. Mach 2.6 might actually be conservative I think mach 2.8 might have been possible. A production version was projected to have even better aero due to smaller engine nacelles.

The YF-23 looks futuristic

YF 23 is one of the greatest aircraft never put into production!

They should have done a dog fight between the F22 and YF 23 and required other test like how good the accuracy of missiles targeting and test how good the stealth is by competing with other jet fighters

the yf23 stealth is so good everybody thinks the military didn't adopt it.

If we had chosen the F-23 there wouldn't be a NGAD program right now.

YES!

The YF23 was what the F35 is now. Back then, BVR was just not yet as hot of a topic as it is now

well out of the 22 or 23 what do nearly everyone else's 6th gen fighter programs look like more?

Grey ghost and Spider!? I read the codename of PAV 2 was Black widow!

1:17. Check out that guy's stealth watch! The progenitor of the iWatch?

YES

These plane made me want to join the air force but with my terrible vision I wouldn’t be able to fly the FA22

Its powerful I like

YF23 was a better platform. Maneuverability is nice but stealth and speed are more important for gaining first kill opportunity. We see those priorities in the NGAD program.

Yf23 was wayyy ahead of its time. You can arguably say pre6th gen

The YF-22 was evolutionary and the YF-23 revolutionary. The YF-23 was otherworldly looking.