WAYLAND in 2023: how GOOD (or BAD) is it? Apps, GPUs, desktops, gaming...

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#Wayland #X11 #linux
00:00 Intro
00:39 Sponsor: 10% off your first website
01:36 X11 vs Wayland
04:47 What's missing from Wayland itself
06:22 Desktop Environment support
09:07 Wayland & GPUs
10:50 Gaming on Wayland
13:01 Apps & Wayland
14:52 Parting Thoughts
16:39 Sponsor: Get a PC made to run Linux
17:57 Support the channel
So, up until recently, all Linux desktops used the X Server, also called X.org or X11. It's a venerable piece of software, that predates even the first release of the Linux kernel, by almost a decade, and X11 is virtually unmaintained now.
And so that's why Wayland was started in 2008. In terms of advantages, it eliminates screen tearing, it lets you have multiple monitors with different refresh rates and different scaling factors, and it's more secure.
www.secjuice.com/wayland-vs-x...
The Wayland protocol still lacks network transparency: Wayland doesn't support running a program on a computer, and displaying it on another. Some stuff also isn't supported yet, on Wayland OR on X11, for example HDR.
Support for fractional scaling has just recently been added, and isn't fully supported by all major Linux desktops and toolkits just yet. Wayland also doesn't support global shortcuts by default, but it's fixed through a desktop portal.
And we need to look at desktop environments and window managers. GNOME is probably the one with the more robust Wayland support available right now: not the most feature complete, but the most robust.
On KDE, Wayland support is a bit less solid, in my experience, Plasma 6 should be THE release with good Wayland support.
As per other desktop environments: Cinnamon is just beginning, MATE hasn't started, but XFCE has published a roadmap of the things that already work, and the things that need to be worked on. Pantheon, the desktop for elementary OS, has an experiment wayland session that is, for now, not really usable, and Deepin doesn't seem to have any plans yet.
You can use Sway, which is basically i3 but made for Wayland, with support for i3 config files, you have hyprland, based on the wlroots implementation, that seems to be the fastest moving tiling window manager for Wayland.
If you use open source drivers, like the mesa drivers for Intel and AMD GPUs, or the Nouveau driver for nvidia, you're all good. These support everything you need, and work well with Wayland, just as well as on X.Org. But then, there are the proprietary nvidia drivers.
And to be fair, they do work with Wayland. it took a long while, but it works, I've been using them on hybrid graphics laptops on GNOME and KDE, and on a desktop running Fedora for a long while, and it works. But it's also not the best experience.
And since we're talking about GPUs, let's talk about gaming. Gaming on Wayland basically relies on X.org, with something called XWayland: it's and X11 server running inside of Wayland.
There is a small performance impact depending on the game. It's not huge, but it's there, so if you're struggling to keep a smooth 60FPS, Xorg will be better. This is notably true with Nvidia drivers, which don't handle XWayland very well.
For now, Wayland enforces Vsync everywhere, unless your monitor has adaptive sync, so stuff like Gsync of freesync. If you don't have that, then Vsync is, for now, mandatory.
And finally, we have application support. All the latest Kirigami apps for KDE, or QT 5 and Qt 6 apps, or Libadwaita apps will handle Wayland well, and all the portals they need to interact well with other apps, screen sharing, and the like. Electron apps using a recent version of electron will also support Wayland, but a lot of electron apps still use an old version that doesn't support it properly.
And older apps using GTK 2, or older versions of Qt also won't support Wayland. Some web browsers also don't run natively with Wayland.

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26 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 726

@TheLinuxEXP 8 месяцев назад

Head to squarespace.com/thelinuxexperiment to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code thelinuxexperiment

@deepin2u 8 месяцев назад

What os are you using in this Wayland video please? Thanks in advance

@JeffGeerling 8 месяцев назад

Considering Raspberry Pi just swapped over to Wayland in Pi OS 12 (Debian Bookworm), I think there will be a large chunk of new users who have no idea they're using Wayland running into some incompatibilities... and hopefully getting them resolved!

@TheLinuxEXP 8 месяцев назад

Yeah, the more users there are, the more likely devs will work on fixing these remaining problems!

@tonysheerness2427 8 месяцев назад

I have a 3.5 inch screen that will not work on bookworm.

@ernestuz 8 месяцев назад

@@tonysheerness2427 Hi, for what I know Wayland talks to the graphic driver et al. in the kernel, I am not doubting you by any means, but can you elaborate why it won't work?

@tonysheerness2427 8 месяцев назад

You load the drivers and nothing happens, but works with the previous release. Other people are experiencing the same thing as I googled the problem. @@ernestuz

@linux2420 8 месяцев назад

Had that issue just about a week ago, all of a sudden the option to enable underscan was gone! (Im using a CRT) Edit: important thing to note is raspi config makes it easy to switch back to X, really handy!

@that_leaflet 8 месяцев назад

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="364">6:04</a> Portals also have a few other uses. They allow for software to better integrate onto the system. For example, Firefox used to use the GTK filepicker even on KDE. But with portals, Firefox calls to the file picker portal and it will use the GTK filepicker if you're using a GTK-based environment like Gnome or the QT filepicker if you're using KDE. Portals are also used for sandboxing. An app can have no access to your filesystem, but using portals, they can be temporarily granted access to specific files or folders.

@TheLinuxEXP 8 месяцев назад

True!

@talkysassis 8 месяцев назад

What lib I import to use portals? portals.h?

@summerishere2868 8 месяцев назад

that's a great feature, it always annoyed me that some programs would use the gtk picker on kde.

@merthyr1831 8 месяцев назад

Portals allow Flathub and other apps to integrate seamlessly with minimal dev effort. I hope they become the standard for Linux app programming!

@charliesumorok6765 7 месяцев назад

Another way to do sandboxing is namespaces.

@drawerganizer785 8 месяцев назад

The unmaintainable aspect of X11 is, to me, one of the most damning things about it. I do fpga development for a living. I've very often just straight up deleted chunks of code and rewritten them from scratch because I didn't want to deal with them. And the other engineers are surprisingly not upset when I do that. They'll tell me how much of a pain those functions were to integrate and update, and how they spent months getting it to work after trying to shoehorn a simple feature into it, and were constantly finding bugs with it, and nobody really knows how it works or wants to touch it. And it takes me all of about a week to rewrite it, it's a fraction of the size of the old code, and it works perfectly save for a few minor obvious bugs. It's not viable to fix bad code. You'll spend so much time trying to understand how it works, and so much time discovering and fixing random bugs, and fixing those bugs is like playing jenga where your fix is going to make the code even more fragile and might break something else. It's much less effort to take what you've learned and start from scratch.

@aziskgarion378 5 месяцев назад

X11 is what we call legacy system. Having a new display server is way over due.

@escapetherace1943 3 месяца назад

@@aziskgarion378 the fact xorg is still a thing just shows how incompetent the devs behind Linux really are

@lucass8119 2 месяца назад

@@escapetherace1943 Lol, Linux is the kernel. X11 is userland. The people who write userland software aren't "linux devs". X11 also runs on BSD and other Unix systems.

@escapetherace1943 2 месяца назад

@@lucass8119 I'm aware of that genius but you didn't think that because they are separate modules of something they don't have any crossover? The point stands xorg has been bad for so long with nobody caring to use something else. Wayland has been taking almost 2 decades now, it's a joke

@nintendowiids12 8 месяцев назад

I'm pretty hyped out for Plasma 6 / Qt 6.6, SO many Wayland fixes/features that are sorely needed.

@MrQuay03 7 месяцев назад

Plasma 6 will be buggy for at least 2 years. Can't really looking forward to it anytime soon

@catto-from-heaven 7 месяцев назад

@@MrQuay03 The whole point of plasma 6 is bringing stable wayland support for plasma

@MrQuay03 7 месяцев назад

@@catto-from-heaven my freaking NVIDIA sucks with Wayland. I'll buy only AMD

@catto-from-heaven 7 месяцев назад

@@MrQuay03 👍

@cameronbosch1213 7 месяцев назад

@@MrQuay03Nvidia can go 🖕 themselves. The ONLY reason I use Nvidia on my desktop is because at the time AMD's Radeon 7900 XTX was announced but not out yet.

@Soundwave142 8 месяцев назад

As you said, it is not meant for modern hardware. It's true that X11 is old, too old even but even though it is a system made for computers back in 1987 it actually impressive that it has lasted this long and has not been decommissioned already. But, yes a successor is necessary for modern systems and it is surprising that one has not been developed and implemented already. I hope Wayland support for Nvidia will have a complete arrival soon.

@cameronbosch1213 8 месяцев назад

Considering the fact that even Linus Torvalds hates working with them and that they ONLY would use EGLStreams when every other open source GPU driver (in Mesa) used GBM until Nvidia eventually gave in and switched to GBM (and KDE Plasma subsequently dropped EGLStreams support once this happened), I'm honestly not surprised why it's taken so long.

@lsatenstein 8 месяцев назад

My Fedora 38, 39 systems, with Waland, crash and provide the black screen death. I switched to using xorg, and all is well. Today, Wayland is, in my opinion, not reliable. It just doesn't work for me as a well proven xorg replacement. Perhaps it will, by 2025, replace xorg.

@thelakeman2538 8 месяцев назад

The problem is more that no one wants to maintain it, than it being old per se. It being old is a reason for that (since that means there's tons of legacy code that no one wants to touch for the fear of breaking something), the reason why it has lasted this long is because of developers hacking together something that works for a modern system, but the project itself has been on life support with some occasional security/bug fixes for many years at this point.

@aladdin8623 8 месяцев назад

Here we go again with nvidia owners failing on wayland and blaming the latter for it. Because hey it is a sacrilege and capital sin to blame nvidia's drivers for their wayland problems. Nvidia can't be the issue right? Fact is even very old amd and intel gpus run very well with wayland. Only nvidia causes issues after issues with their obstinate behavior. And the community can nothing do about it due to closed drivers. Instead of blaming wayland, it would really help if way more nvidia owners got more critical towards nvidia and demanded them to improve their wayland compliance. A linux standard that exists for more than ten years now while nvidia only started to support it about two years ago in a mediocre manner.

@cptive 8 месяцев назад

@@aladdin8623It's not just Nvidia, there are plenty of issues and missing features in Wayland. Developer actively not implementing necessary features for YEARS because his ego refused to admit it was necessary... You're trying to tell me that's the future?

@Sonic6293 8 месяцев назад

I use Wayland with very little issues, but i do use an AMD GPU, and I do wish there was a good application or utility to control resolution and scaling for window managers like Sway.

@un_tizio_a_caso2701 8 месяцев назад

You may be looking for wdisplays

@flarebear5346 8 месяцев назад

Have you tried wayland-displays? Atleast it provides a gui for monitor related stuff

@Sonic6293 8 месяцев назад

@@flarebear5346 I couldn't find a program called that, but I did find one called wdisplays, which does provide a GUI, but none of the changes stick! I'm going to have to dig into it some more.

@ironfist7789 7 месяцев назад

I tested wayland again with wine/world of warcraft and all I can get is a black screen with the "improved" nvidia 545 drivers, whereas x11 works. It seems to have gotten worse. 6 months ago I was able to use it but just with some weird visual issues and flashing.

@enzolanger9902 8 месяцев назад

What impress me the most is that the videos you and other linux chanels do, the great content and information is not just on the minutes of recording, but also in the comment section, where are several different information and discussion that always tends to get a more complete vision on the topic. Very nice and thanks for the videos you do, can't believe this world where me in Brazil, watch videos in English from a guy at France with several people from different continents participate on comments and other things

@Czarmzy 8 месяцев назад

Can't wait for full wayland support in wine. I play osu so its very latency sensitive. Sticking to X for now but already ricing a river based wayland setup for when it's ready for me. HDR and better hdpi handling are an icing on the cake. Feels like linux desktop is gonna be a lot better in the next 5 years to what it is now.

@bluetoothspeakergaming 8 месяцев назад

kid named osu!lazer :

@m4sterred853 8 месяцев назад

@@bluetoothspeakergamingSoonTM

@shizuvoice 8 месяцев назад

@@bluetoothspeakergaming I use osu!lazer, kinda tired of farming pp and I'm enjoying lazer

@MikhailT 8 месяцев назад

System76's upcoming Pop release with Cosmic is going to be wayland-only with xwayland. It will be interesting to see what they can do to help with Nvidia situation as they use these GPUs in their hardware.

@shizuvoice 8 месяцев назад

As someone who tried Wayland with an NVIDIA GPU and live streaming, there are few issues I encountered that makes my display (1080p165Hz) runs at 60fps where my OBS frame rate is set to. This is not an issue with X11 and I fallback to it just to avoid that annoying locked FPS when using OBS and streaming a competitive game. But for normal use, this is completely fine.

@uzefulvideos3440 8 месяцев назад

I didn't know OBS worked with Wayland now...

@ssokolow 8 месяцев назад

@@uzefulvideos3440 Yeah. I remember hearing mention that it has screen-sharing portal support now, though I can't remember if it's native or via a plugin.

@alvallac2171 8 месяцев назад

*makes my display […] run (bare infinitive, because of "makes")

@shizuvoice 8 месяцев назад

@@uzefulvideos3440 It works right now thanks to PipeWire which handles both audio and video streams. It does its job capturing video but in some instances it breaks when I try to capture a specific game.

@vram1974 8 месяцев назад

It's not like I could do better, but it's kinda nutz that Wayland as a replacement for x11 hit 1.0 back in 2012 and we're in 2023 and it's still not fully replaced it. Even more surprising is there isn't 8 different alternatives to Wayland in competition with each other like snaps, flat packs, appimages, etc.

@johnwayne-kd1pn 8 месяцев назад

There were a few actually, but they didn't quite make it.

@RogerioPereiradaSilva77 8 месяцев назад

Well, there was MIR but that's mostly because Ubuntu/Canonical suffers from a very strong NIH syndrome and can't stand the idea of contributing code/resources to something that they don't control or benefit the most. And by most accounts, MIR was a knee jerk reaction from them not understanding Wayland design goals. Once they realized it was a dead end and that they failed to attract attention from the X11 developers to get it going, they quickly tossed it aside.

@vram1974 8 месяцев назад

@@johnwayne-kd1pn I meant alternatives in active competition with Wayland.

@user-xr3rb6pn9m 4 месяца назад

Well, no one wants to invest money in such an alternative given how much it would cost and how little Linux desktop actually matters. If there was any money in Linux desktop, I guarantee you there would already have been a server/protocol/whatever which would actually work and provide compatibility with both X11 or Wayland apps.

@BiserAngelov1 8 месяцев назад

So the X11 Killer Feature, that Wayland can do exclusively, is still just rotating windows? It's a such an important feature. Rotating windows versus remote desktop! What a joke!

@pyp2205 8 месяцев назад

Ever since the Fedora Project announced the removal of X11 in a future release of Fedora, I moved to Wayland. So far it's good, the only issue I had was my '/etc/profile' containing paths of programs was not being read. But I fixed it by having the file read when ~/.profile is read.

@JoshuaStrobl 8 месяцев назад

Small correction to what you said: Per the quote on the Buddies of Budgie blog post, Magpie "v1" and later releases (which will be the wlroots-based Wayland compositor) will be used in both Budgie 10.x and Budgie 11, in the case of Budgie 10.x it is as soon as porting of Budgie 10 from X11-specific code to libraries like libxfce4windowing which supports both X11 and Wayland, and of course when Magpie v1 is actually released. At that point in time, Budgie 10 will be Wayland-only, and Budgie will continue being Wayland only going into the future and all parts of 11 are designed with Wayland-only in mind.

@TheLinuxEXP 8 месяцев назад

Thanks for the correction!

@SkyyySi 8 месяцев назад

As for my personal use, there are two reasons why I won't be using it any time soon: 1. I use AwesomeWM, which does not, and most likely never will, support Wayland. Having a simple, imperative window manager like it under Wayland is tough to say the least. 2. While I tried to switch to a DE (at least on my Laptop), the blurring issues with fractional scaling made immediately leave them. You tend to call this a little bit of blur, but to me, this is totally unusable. It feels like I try to read a far away road sign while having forgotton to put on my glasses. On Xorg, I've configured it to use 150% scaling and it's all super crisp.

@actualhyena 8 месяцев назад

The fact Wayland started in 2008 and has taken multiple US Presidential terms just to become Almost Ready™ for use on a desktop computer as a daily driver really goes to show that X11 really isn't all that old, comparatively. The problem is down to keeping everything on X11 usable while working on Wayland, which for some has probably gotten in the way of actually getting Wayland working at all, but also! Sitting back and not upgrading your code - only sticking to XWayland support - should be considered bad practice!!

@gokhanyildirimlar 8 месяцев назад

I want to make a small correction about Deepin. Deepin is working towards v23 release and beta version of it has actually Wayland support. So we probably will see Wayland in Deepin v23 even though I am not sure if it will be the default one.

@TheLinuxEXP 8 месяцев назад

Oh nice, I missed that!

@AcidHotpocket 8 месяцев назад

Have to use X11 because I like to play video games and have an nvidia card. I initially tried Wayland when I set up my new system, but I was getting a lot of after images moving stuff around, while X11 just werks. I hope nvidia decides to make some more updates for Wayland compatibility sooner rather than later. Lesson learned: do all the research!

@nellexvul 8 месяцев назад

This is exactly my experience on Wayland, unfortunately. I'm fairly new to Linux; I've been running Kubuntu on my gaming rig for over 2 months after running Kubuntu on my laptop for 2 months prior. My laptop has basically no issues (other than the fact that Discover likes to crash after updates, but it tends to fix itself later). My desktop on the other hand has this exact same display issue, and it's jarring sometimes. However, the system fundamentally works, and I can still play games, so I'm still sticking with it.

@comrade171 8 месяцев назад

well if you think wayland is bad with the nvidia drivers take a look at wayland with the nouveau drivers, totally fucked!

@-S1lverTray 8 месяцев назад

I use linux.

@piotrpajor997 8 месяцев назад

I like trains.

@st0rmrider 8 месяцев назад

@@piotrpajor997 then chances are your trains are running on Linux (and train tracks).

@Watchandlearn91 8 месяцев назад

One of the biggest issues with Wayland (which is not the fault of Wayland itself) is the blurry text when using fractional scaling with XWayland apps. I use the Jetbrains suite of apps for my development needs (mainly IntelliJ, PyCharm, and CLion) and they still have not been updated to work with Wayland natively. This means that using fractional scaling in a wayland session leads to blurry text on those apps. I noticed the same thing in FF until I set the experimental property to enable wayland support. I ended up having to revert to X11 and simply can't use Wayland on a 2560x1440p laptop screen until they fix that.

@_ianjms 6 месяцев назад

I recently switched to KDE and just found out that they have (mostly) fixed this problem already. In Plasma 5.27 Display Settings, you can allow xwayland applications (notably IntelliJ apps like Android Studio, PHP Storm, Web Storm etc.) to scale themselves without being forced by the system. I am using 125% scaling and the text look crisp and it has been a good experience for me so far!

@sashimisub8536 6 месяцев назад

Same

@ToyKeeper 8 месяцев назад

No keylogging, and no network transparency, are two of the main reasons I don't use Wayland. It gives drop shadows and slightly higher frame rates, but it doesn't provide core features I rely on every day for basic computer use.

@stefmyt5062 8 месяцев назад

Migrated from DWM to Hyprland a few weeks ago, and it's honestly working much, MUCH better than I thought. I even get more FPS when gaming, which was definitely a surprise.

@archgirl 8 месяцев назад

Hyprland has changed everything for me. I’d never used a TWM before, but my experience with Hyprland has completely killed the traditional desktop paradigm for me.

@NerdistRay 8 месяцев назад

Hey, I've been using DWM for a couple of years now and also thinking of switching to Wayland and Hyprland makes the most appealing choice.

@cephi_sui 8 месяцев назад

@@NerdistRayHyprland is by far my favorite choice. It looks super clean out of the box and it's really easy to configure!

@ubercorey 6 месяцев назад

You rock! I learned a lot about linux in general, but everything about the past, present and our future was really clear. Thank you!

@powderypastor1242 8 месяцев назад

I've been running Sway in VMs for a year or so until I got the new AMD Framework 13. Haven't tested everything that's known to cause issues but so far it's very stable and does everything I need it to. I might try Hyprland later but I don't need the extra features and I love Sway's minimalism!

@iodreamify 8 месяцев назад

Great summary, thanks for keeping us uptodate!

@mhasadi78 8 месяцев назад

Great video. I get excited whenever a Wayland related video show up on my feed and what is better than Nick's video? :)

@kilgoretrout6810 5 месяцев назад

Any decade now..

@lionking10222 8 месяцев назад

Great overview for wayland in october 2023. Thanks a lot for this!

@apolopena 6 месяцев назад

Very informative and well presented! It was everything I wanted to know pretty much in the exact order of how I wanted to know it too Thank you.

@ukaszpalczewski7588 8 месяцев назад

Thx for the update on Wayland. I am using it on nvidia and I see some issues with soma app like for example Discord going black when it is not focused and on the non main screen... But generally I like it.

@ozonegamedev 8 месяцев назад

As a new Linux user, I have never even touched the X11 session on my PC. From my experience I can say that Wayland is suitable for daily use and even gaming. I only had one major issue, because kwin crashed once, but it wasn't too serious.

@nguyennguyenkhang5800 8 месяцев назад

Wayland can only suitable for average american. If you are japanese or chinese and need inputmethod. Throw away wayland after few hours play with wayland

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

You should try running KDE under Xorg instead of Wayland. Such crashes are pretty-much unheard of under X11.

@shanent5793 8 месяцев назад

It was incredibly short sighted to omit network transparency and remote rendering. It's hardly "niche" these days and the abstraction would have spared them the trouble they are having with HDR and scaling. The reason given for not wanting to define a rendering API doesn't make sense, those APIs already existed from the start. Anything, even PDFs would be better than Wayland's dumb bitmaps

@johnwayne-kd1pn 8 месяцев назад

Actually, you're probably right. Today that might even be more important than ever, considering the increasing popularity of virtual machines and namespaces (containers).. There are so many potential use cases for remote rendering.. Even game companies are talking about it, things like offloading game rendering partly to servers and whatnot, all kind of things like that.

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

@@johnwayne-kd1pn As far as I can tell the only real plan Wayland had was to provide a workaround for DRI's shortcomings.¹ Since then they appear to have been winging it. ¹ Ironically, DRI2 fixed these issues... 6 months before Wayland was released.

@FrankJonen 8 месяцев назад

I hope the x11 network view comes to Wayland. Working directly on the renderfarm with the full GUI would be amazing.

@totoshampoin 8 месяцев назад

You have been claiming that Wayland is ready for months (or years, idk)... So I am glad you FINALLY put the spotlight on the parts where it's not (especially Nvidia, which is still very widespread, especially in the laptop market (even with Tuxedo))

@MegaManNeo 8 месяцев назад

It's still X11 for me but we getting much closer faster and faster.

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

The closer I look at Wayland's architecture and implementation(s) the more I realize that Wayland's future on desktop Linux looks rather bleak. It's really not designed for general-purpose use (its main use seems to be in automotive applications, i.e. the embedded space, for which it seems reasonably well suited).

@AstralPhnx 8 месяцев назад

Currently running Fedora 38 on my Laptop and Desktop, both on Wayland, both full AMD. Brilliant experience. I've needed to tweak a few things here and there but overall my experience with Wayland has been extremely comfortable and performance with it and XWayland is really great. Games run fine, scaling between my two monitors works great and it all just works quite well. Of course it still has some jank here and there but it's making fast progress!

@syerra1 8 месяцев назад

Superb video. I learned so much. Merci beacoup :)

@brantgardner4751 8 месяцев назад

I cut over to Wayland for my everything -- gaming included -- and have been pleasantly surprised at how little disruption there has been. Like others a lot of this may go back to the fact that I choose AMD graphics whenever I can, but I also think it demonstrates how much work has been done by the Wayland developers.

@tux_the_astronaut 7 месяцев назад

Ye every since i got a new computer with AMD gaming on wayland has been pretty seamless only thing i spend extra time configuring is forcing apps or games to use wayland instead of preferring X like for example making unity unreal and source games use wayland with the SDL environment variable to force wayland

@summerishere2868 8 месяцев назад

Thanks for the video Nick. Great explanation on wayland (and also x11). Unfortunately wayland still has its issues but hopefully soon it will be great for most people.

@donchisciottev 7 месяцев назад

In the last year and a half I had the same experience you describe with Wayland. I use Ubuntu 22.04 LTS with a hybrid graphic hardware with Intel and Nvidia graphic cards almost without problems. Your video are really interesting, clear and well organized. Your english is very understandable and nice to listen. Keep it up, Nick! 👍‍

@jacekpoz2203 8 месяцев назад

I agree that hyprland is the fastest moving wayland tiling compositor, at this pace it will overtake gnome in approximately 3-4 months

@dnlov4 8 месяцев назад

As fractional scaling is still considered experimental in GNOME 45, there is a big trouble with Xwayland apps. All of scaled X applications are blury, and I'm still looking for solution. If the app doesn't support Wayland natively (like Chrome does), there is no way to solve that. Workaround I've found is not to scale the whole interface but just the text using GNOME Tweaks or Accessibility settings. For my 14-inch 1080p laptop it makes text bigger keeping all the other UI smaller, so there is more useful content on the screen. But if there are any ways to use fractional scaling in a proper way, I'll be glad to read your replies on that, guys!

@bil4x467 8 месяцев назад

Great video!

@charliesumorok6765 7 месяцев назад

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="210">3:30</a> Keylogger protection can be implemented by extending grabs to have an option to also report to parent windows.

@novantha1 8 месяцев назад

I'd just like to note that I think this take is a bit *too* pro Wayland, at least in the introductory X11 vs Wayland part. Wayland has less code...Because they're offloading a bunch of functionality from the Display server to other projects. This is causing a huge schism where there's plenty of scientific software that requires certain functionality afforded by X11, that literally cannot be ported to Wayland in any practical sense. This could drive many researchers and professionals who used to use Linux to Windows. Wayland *fixes* screen tearing...By forcing Vsync, which eliminates the latency advantage you mentioned. This one is baffling to me, personally, as plenty of people with high refresh rate monitors accept screen tearing for the lowest possible latency. And yes, X11 has a lot of legacy code. But the thing about big projects with lots of legacy bits of code is that people think "oh, we're going to make a new standard and it'll be better", but they end up having to engineer a very similar looking end piece of code because those legacy bits of code *were there for a reason*. Those asterisks that make the code look unreadable aren't there because the developers were stupid, they're there because they fixed a problem that probably took hundreds of engineering hours to sort out, and will take hundreds of engineering hours to sort out in the new protocol. Also, I would absolutely not agree the Gnome has excellent Wayland support. Gnome was one of the first adopters of Wayland, but an issue with that is that plenty of features they adopted were then adopted differently by most other projects looking at Wayland (try playing a VR game in Gnome. I'll wait.), so they're in a weird spot of being mature but in all the wrong areas, and a great deal of their implementation is overdue a fundamental re-write. Beyond that, this is not something covered in the video, but in my experience X has had better hardware support in my individual case, as when I've had to install a distro with a Wayland session by default in my setup (I use a 4k monitor, but drive it at 1440p for cost of GPU reasons, and currently have to convert from mini displayport to HDMI), it's caused a massive issue where certain distros literally will not boot without adjusting certain parameters related to the initial splashcreen that displays before the login manager starts. I literally cannot log in on distros that use Wayland by default. I spent almost an entire day trying to get an Arch Linux installation working (I was guided by someone more experienced with the distro) but the script they gave me to run installed Wayland by default, but I gave up and just installed a distro that used X by default instead, and I only found out the issue was with Wayland after the fact. That's a horrible and frustrating experience that could seriously prevent someone with a similar setup from installing Linux for the first time in the future. But all of the above are just bellyaching. They're reasons that a person might be a bit put off by Wayland, but not necessarily a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My primary issue with Wayland: The developers are way too opinionated about "what a display server should be" and are focused on implementing their vision, and dragging the entire ecosystem with them kicking or screaming. This is absolutely not an attitude I can condone, because it's causing massive issues with adoption of Linux apps on Wayland and might drive certain important sectors from Linux to Windows. Linux is already on shaky footing and I don't really think we have the political clout in the software world to be breaking backwards compatibility in such a dramatic way. It's possible that in ten years Linux would have a strong enough adoption and community that moving to a more modern protocol would be viable, but I think we're right on the edge of being a viable option, and I don't want to throw that out because a few developers jumped the gun way too early and in too opinionated a manner.

@johnwayne-kd1pn 8 месяцев назад

Well, the good thing is that Wayland is built with Xorg compatibility, not only can you run Xorg stuff inside Wayland, but also separate from Wayland (at the same time).

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

@@johnwayne-kd1pn XWayland is far from being complete.

@deepin2u 8 месяцев назад

@ThelinuxExperiment what Linus Distro are you using in this particular video please? Thx

@harogaston 8 месяцев назад

Excellent video Nick!

@motorazr777 6 месяцев назад

Amazing video!

@FrantaNautilus 8 месяцев назад

I would love to see additional video covering the Enlightenment Desktop, which does have its own implementation of Wayland and the EFL library supposedly supports it as well. Maybe it is not completely finished, but it is still interesting.

@cjcox 7 месяцев назад

Is Wayland ready? No. Back in 2019 when I gave an assessment of Wayland and compositors at the time, I was community crucified for saying it was at least 2 years off. And here we are, more than 2 years later, likely still looking at least at another 2 years. Anyway, it's good to see the progress. I'm just not going to "sugar coat" it. In all fairness, I should have been crucified for saying "at least 2 years off" because I was so so so very wrong. I should have said 5 to 6 years off (and even that in 2019 would likely still not have been enough). No shortage of work to do. Remember, Wayland + compositors isn't Xorg/X11, not even close. The fact that Xwayland works mostly is pretty amazing. We're not talking about two different kind of cars, gas combustion engine vs. battery electric. More like two modes of transportation, one being "house cat" and the other being "aircraft carrier". That is, while there is a way of looking at the two for similarity, they are pretty radically different. And this is the biggest reason why it's taking this long. So, no harm, no foul to the (evil) crucifiers from 2019, but there is a realistic view that needs to be kept in mind. And yes, there will absolutely positively be loss and some of that loss will be permanent (never fixed/done in Wayland + Compositors). At the same time, there are certain things that will make more sense using Wayland + compositors, but since that's not the "here and now", it's not something we get "mad about", because it's something yet unseen. Anyway, nothing that hasn't been stated, just they way it is when making a radical change, which is what this move is. So, try it out, realize there's still more work to do. Realize that not everything "of old" will still work moving forward.

@Davixxa 8 месяцев назад

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="640">10:40</a> - Aand this is where I'm a bit stuck up, I guess. I refuse to make my hardware fit my software - I'd rather do it the other way around.

@TobySug 8 месяцев назад

This video and explanation is so good. Thanks.

@bogdankarpus181 8 месяцев назад

Nice, and wide review, thanks! I'm using Fedora, Gnome, Wayland with nvidia drivers for a working(I use two monitor), for personal stuff and for a gaming. And for me it works fine, sometimes I have an issues but they are not critical.

@Emc-it4lg 8 месяцев назад

Wayland is unusable for me, it just doesn't work. I have been using Linux as my desktop system since 2013. I have tried again and again to switch to Wayland, but it just doesn't work. It's slow, some applications don't open at all, it crashes. With Nvidia it does not work for me at all! I recently switched from OpenSuse to Debian and there Wayland crashes completely. If Gnome and Plasma 6 completely abandon X11, I will look for an alternative desktop environment. You can't do away with something as long as the new thing doesn't really work! I would be happy if Wayland would work, but it does not work for me! For 10 years I try to switch! Just the name Wayland triggers me, because I have only made bad experiences with it!

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

This. The current version of Wayland won't even start on any of my systems. This is in contrast to a few years ago when at least Wayland would run (albiet very poorly). With the recent push by Redhat to ditch X I've been looking in to Wayland's architecture and from what I've seen it's really bad. It's really not clear exactly what Wayland is trying to achieve or what problems they're trying to solve. It really feels like it was thrown together without any real plan beyond fixing DRI's shortcomings (ironically, DRI2 fixed DRI's issues and was released before Wayland was). Beyond that it seems to have been cobbled together on the fly.

@cheebadigga4092 8 месяцев назад

Finally! Cinnamon with Wayland is the only thing I'm missing on Linux. Switched to Gnome in the meantime, but just temporarily.

@d.wolfin152 8 месяцев назад

I run hyprland on my laptop, and you used to be able to set your screen to 125% size in the config file and it would scale perfectly (while using the scaling variable for the exact same thing would make text blurry). A shame they “fixed” it with an update and now the display just becomes bigger than the screen. It wasn’t a bug, it was a feature 😭

@wenderajade 8 месяцев назад

Recently had to switch to Wayland for real because of my current game obsession that for some reason only runs well in Wayland. My one big issue so far is that Krita doesn't work at all and just crashes immediately 😭 Other than that, I will occasionally get some weird refresh rate issues with RU-vid , but nothing major. Not like just earlier this year when Wayland would randomly crash the whole computer every session.

@cameronbosch1213 8 месяцев назад

For me, KDE Plasma 5.27.0 would constsistantly be unusable upon log in, but as of Plasma 5.27.6, it now mostly works. (And yes, I'm using an Nvidia GPU because of CUDA.)

@yasminesteinbauer8565 8 месяцев назад

Hopefully, with the switch to Wayland, we'll get better RDP support at some point.😊

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

I'd doubt it. They've dabbled with (and then abandoned) screen-scraping network support something like four times now. They seem to have no interest in actually implementing remote application support. In fact, per the Wayland developers, the currently-recommended method for running remote Wayland applications is to tunnel them over X11!

@carlos-eduardo 8 месяцев назад

Great video! By the way, I'm not an experienced Linux user, but I have a NVIDIA GPU and I use Sunshine/Moonlight a lot to stream games from my PC. I don't have issues using X11 while on Wayland it's not reliable at all, at least on my experience, using Nobara Linux on Gnome.

@trevorford8332 8 месяцев назад

I didn't notice i was running Wayland, until it was downloading the other day. Shows how much I pay attention. 😊

@TheLinuxEXP 8 месяцев назад

Nice!

@Wampa842 8 месяцев назад

Speaking for myself, I've had a significantly improved gaming experience on Wayland (Hyprland) compared to X (KDE and Qtile). My main issue on X was the massive input latency introduced by the compositor (Kwin and picom respectively), so any time I wanted to play a game without a 50-100 ms delay on the mouse, I just had to deal with screen tearing.

@baumkuchen6543 8 месяцев назад

Same here. Cyberpunk2077 works for me a lot better under wayland. X11 gave me a horrible screen tearing.

@Durayne 8 месяцев назад

Well I just turned of the compositor, because i dont care for fancy desktop effects.

@tux_the_astronaut 7 месяцев назад

Same here even with vsync on games running natively on wayland i have much less input lag than on x with vsync off

@blood794 6 месяцев назад

love seeing angle beats as a demo lol

@Romaoplays 8 месяцев назад

Still waiting for it to support my hybrid graphics Gtx 1060 laptop. As soon as that happens I’ll be all in on wayland

@movax20h 8 месяцев назад

I will try Wayland next decade. It is getting there, but progress is super slow. Since like 2008, I do try to use Wayland every few years, and it essentially was always a disaster. It is now finally usable, but I still cannot switch on most of the systems (some older Laptops I have, with Intel graphics; and some remote VMs, etc), because it just does not work, or not support what I need. Also my favorite desktop manager does not support Wayland. They are working on it, but the most favorite feature of that desktop manager is being reworked and essentially removed, because it cannot be easily supported on Wayland. So no. I will continue using X11 for very long time.

@RogerioPereiradaSilva77 8 месяцев назад

Same.

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

A few years ago Wayland at least used to run (and then promptly crash) on my machines. Currently it won't even start on any of them.

@linuxgameplayxp6246 8 месяцев назад

I'll stick to X11 for now for a few more years and let the Wayland users beta test it some more.

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

Wayland's not even in beta state yet. I reckon it probably won't be for at least 5 years.

@galangtirtayudha3973 8 месяцев назад

I remember having borked system because of Kwin-wayland crashing during update. And it was like 4-5 months ago, very recent. Now, I rarely, if ever, having any crash at all. True testimonial of how fast the development.

@cameronbosch1213 8 месяцев назад

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="205">3:25</a> And that's how XEyes works! 👀

@FelixianFox 7 месяцев назад

The problem I have when running Wayland is on KDE with an NVIDIA gpu. Upon logging in, everything technically works for abaout 15 minutes, then the taskbar freezes, and once it's frozen, it can't be unfrozen without restarting. Then, if it goes to sleep, I wake it up only to find that the login screen is glitched. Then the whole desktop freezes with no ability to unfreeze without shutting off and turning back on. So, I'm convinced Wayland is still not ready.

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

Wow, Wayland runs *way* better on your system than it does on mine. On the current Wayland release I only ever got a black or corrupted screen.

@emanuelemorozzi8123 8 месяцев назад

Thank you for what you do. I have been using linux as desktop os for almost 20 years. Currently I have been running PopOS for the last 3 years more or less. After the video I have tried to enable Wayland and logged in using the proper session type, but unfortunately it does not work very well, I have tried gaming and the experience is awful and also the fractional scaling with the configuration I normally use is not working. The positive thing is that all this can only improve 😅

@pitape1822 8 месяцев назад

Very good overview thanks! Considering a hybrid AMD iGPU and Nvidia discrete graphics for my next laptop.

@AmgadElsaiegh 8 месяцев назад

very very useful video, thank you 👍🏾

@Durayne 8 месяцев назад

My main Problem is that I have a nvidia graphics card (RTX 2080). Its improving but still not there for me. And in fact this there has been a lot of change. Earlier this year I had like 10-20% performance loss overall in dxvk/vulkan. This was resolved in 525 or 535 (cant remember). The fix was some reduction in Overhead. Whats still the matter: 535 drivers still have vsynch force. Or at least its a bug. So the option that fullscreen resolutions can ignore vsynch is simply not applied. With the recent 545 driver that bug got fixed. I can easily verify with some phoronix test suite tests. But then I get really ugly screen tearing in some applications and even somehow hitching image - like sometimes even like an older frame gets rendered in between - through dxvk with wayland/545. I guess that is a byproduct by their current "fix".

@CookiLover311 8 месяцев назад

While I don't use any such tools myself, I have heard a few times that accessibility tools like screen readers are basically unusable on Wayland, which makes Wayland completely unusable for some people with disabilities

@EHKvlogs 8 месяцев назад

why kde is unable to open fonts under wayland?

@ChrispyNut 8 месяцев назад

I switched to Wayland full-time somewhere around a year or so ago, with the occasional minor issue being a worthwhile price to get rid of the screen tearing when scrolling web pages and watching YT, but it's not like there were occasional issues with X11, so I don't know whether I've had a smoother or bumpier ride ... aside from the smoother experience.

@ndrechtseiter 8 месяцев назад

Nick, could you please tell us how you managed to run Wayland on a hybrid-graphics laptop?

@mysterybiscuits 8 месяцев назад

The one thing missing for me is mapping external touch screens. On X11 I can use xinput map-to-output, but on Wayland that doesn't work - I know I can map the touch screen on Sway and KDE, but I prefer Cinnamon so I'll be giving Wayland a go in Mint 21.3. Plus I have a GTX 1650, but I bought that before I committed to daily driving Linux.

@gwgux 8 месяцев назад

I was a holdout for the longest time. Then a kernel update started causing some weird lockup issue where if I moved the mouse over a video playing in my browser, the whole desktop would lock up. I troubleshot, and even distro hopped, and then decided to give Wayland a shot and the issue was gone. This was about a month ago and I haven't looked back to X11 since. I've been running Linux for over 20 years and remember having to write config files just to get X running and if I can jump on the Wayland bandwagon, I think everyone else will eventually too. It's not perfect (far from it), and I do notice the performance hit in gaming, but for me, it's time to move forward. It's probably still about 5 years out before it's really "ready" for prime time IMO, but what we have now is working really well. Graphics are complicated, and that's why it's taking so long, but I think Wayland is probably in a state that's "good enough" for a lot more people than it used to be.

@josegarita2718 8 месяцев назад

Steam client is broken in Wayland using NVIDIA cards 🙃

@TheLinuxEXP 8 месяцев назад

No it’s not? Big picture mode is, not the client itself

@josegarita2718 8 месяцев назад

@@TheLinuxEXP for me, the client itself, I have to open it through gamescope, otherwise it is a flickering show haha oh and don't even try to enable HW acceleration

@st0rmrider 8 месяцев назад

It's OK, next year will be The Year of the Linux Desktop™.

@michadybczak4862 8 месяцев назад

Today, at work, I had to plug in another screen, and it was horrible - it was blurry and the picture was jumping visibly, while some lines were distorted. I switched to Wayland - all issues went away. The screen had crisp image. It shows that multimonitor support is superior on Wayland.

@user-vh6rl1se8e 8 месяцев назад

small correction, the lack of screensharing support for wayland isn't related to the app supporting wayland natively or not supporting wayland screensharing is another thing, for example there are xwayland only apps that support wayland screensharing (signal desktop for example), and wayland native apps that do not support wayland screensharing

@connivingkhajiit 8 месяцев назад

Only two reasons i still care about X: nvidia, and the ability to forward x11 over ssh so i can copy and paste across two machines with ranger and xclip.

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

I'd add stability and having a sane, non-brittle architecture to that list.

@buckysrevenge 8 месяцев назад

I've been using Wayland on my hybrid GPU laptop with Nvidia proprietary drivers for a while and it works well enough, but I can't use it on my game system yet (also Nvidia GPU) because of a couple issues like Steam's new BPM doesn't start in full screen even if it is set to it and the mouse cursor becomes invisible while using a game controller with Steam Input when using Wayland(unless there's been a change in the last few months).

@ethanrushbrook3314 8 месяцев назад

Half tempted to be the guy that fixes X11 😅

@alexhajnal107 6 месяцев назад

Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is. They keep saying that Xorg is irreparably broken but I've yet to see them spell out, in detail, precisely what is broken and why fixing it is intractable. It's especially baffling since they've included Xorg as part of Wayland so they still need to maintain it.

@ari-el3702 6 месяцев назад

Nice video,Following his speech and and knowing how Linux's characteristics are, why does Wayland only work in a large limited amount of distributions, desktop environments and window administrators?

@jasonwilson9446 3 месяца назад

I left LTS for Ubuntu Studio 23.10 for the Wayland support and I absolutely love it. I was actually going to hop to a new distro but took a chance on 23.10 and now I'm not going anywhere for a while.

@OM-bs7of 8 месяцев назад

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="528">8:48</a> Angel Beats! 😃

@esra_erimez 8 месяцев назад

It seems to me that Wayland is a good example of the Dunning Kruger effect. They didn't know what they were getting themselves into and never really got their act together. Maybe its time to start a new replacement.

@dragofx_5472 8 месяцев назад

Most of the Wayland people came from the X11 development team, I think the one who doesn't know what they're talking about is you...

@esra_erimez 8 месяцев назад

@@dragofx_5472 I have to admit that I do not know what I'm talking about. If the development team did come from X11, then why are they still playing catch up on basic features? But as someone that's been a Linux user for over 10 years, it *appears* to me that Wayland is never quite ready.

@user-qv7rw7dq1d 7 месяцев назад

Wow! At the <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="540">9:00</a> mark What was that graphic at the right that looked like bars on the terminal?

@lorduggae 8 месяцев назад

running Wayland on Gnome with an AMD gpu...... pretty much smooth sailing. I can feel a difference in responsiveness of my desktop if I switch to a x11 session

@braaitongs 5 месяцев назад

I am new to Linux. I just recently installed NixOs on a spare laptop. Does it make sense to have hyprland and Wayland on at the same time or do they do similar things? and what about KDe plasma as a desktopManager? Where can I read more about how compositors, window managaers and desktopmanager all work togehter?

@cernunox 8 месяцев назад

If I don't plan to play or do gpu intensive tasks with nvidia Gpu. Is it okay to use Wayland with proprietary drivers?

@NicoDsSBCs 8 месяцев назад

I love Ubuntu-desktop on wayland. Things have evolved very quickly the last year for it. But I also have xfce4 installed for gaming and when I need x11. Good to still have both. But x11 its days are numbered.

@uzefulvideos3440 8 месяцев назад

Display scaling on Wayland is terrible, just makes everything blurry, while on X11 it works perfectly fine...

@CookiLover311 8 месяцев назад

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="608">10:08</a> I feel like it can be important to note how crucial some settings in the Nvidia control panel can be I, for instance, have an older display that needs a limited color space, but that simply isn't an option on Wayland. So if I don't want all colors on my display to look completely off I can't use Wayland

@curiousmushroom9900 7 месяцев назад

Does Wayland offer a proper browser experience with a laptop ? I was using Hyprland + Brave last month it was working really well (I'm mainly talking about touchpad pinch to zoomin the content, not increase the zoom level of the page dynamically, and fluid scroll) but last week I tried a Windows VM with Pop OS (with Pop on Wayland) and it did not seem to work properly.

@derzw3rg 8 месяцев назад

Synergy (a kvm software) sadly does not work with Wayland - which makes now sense as it basically captures the mouse/keyboard and share it via the network

@John223 8 месяцев назад

I run wayland on all of my machines except for a media server connected to a projector. For some reason a 1080Ti with 16Gb of ram is not enough to project a movie and it stutters on wayland, but X11 works because it allows the screen to tear and keeps the video smooth.

@TheLinuxEXP 8 месяцев назад

Probably an Xwayland + nvidia drivers issue :/

@turtleidiot3324 8 месяцев назад

That's due to the fact that wayland does not allow for screen tearing at all as of now but i think it's being worked on. brodie robertson made a video about it iirc

@John223 8 месяцев назад

There is a proposal to add screen tearing to wayland, but until that's added I'm keeping at least one machine on X11

@cameronbosch1213 8 месяцев назад

Linus Torvalds: Nvidia, 🖕 you!

@riskin620 8 месяцев назад

Pretty sure the 1080Ti topped out at 11gb (I have one) and I agree that tearing is unacceptable.

@theriddick 8 месяцев назад

It still has a few holdout bugs and missing features for me such as support iGPU as secondary screens (glitchy atm) and HDR + 10bit color. I think once those are sorted out I'll be pretty damn happy with Wayland AND Plasma! Yes the X11/XWayland global shortcut translation is going to become a massive issue, for the moment XWAYLAND windows can talk to each other via shortcuts such as discord ptt while in a proton/wine game... BUT that will eventually go away as Wine/Proton moves to wayland.