"A Dream of A Dream" that was not a flashforward at the beginning, he threw away the cross necklace, and he stays in japan, his dream of being an old man back in England stop at the point where he tried to commit seppuku
When Toranaga said "Why tell a dead man the future", that's a refrence to when Omi first found the Anjin's ship and said to Yabushige if they should tell their lord, then Yabushige said the same line "Why tell a dead man the future", that's wild payback babyyyyyy.
Thereby implying that Omi have been informing on Yabu to Tora throughout the entire show. All of his betrayals and double dealings have all been a part of the plan from the beginning. The smile is Yabu realizing this, knowing by betraying his master, he actually served him and Tora smiling back is him saying yes, you got it, I will become Shogun and you played your part in making that happen.
The dreams are just that. John’s dream of growing old in England changes. One of the themes in the series is talking fate and changing it. Toranaga changes fate. Mariko changes fate. John changes fate. The future is not set. John lives the rest of his life in Japan serving the Shogun. This test was the last thing that made him shed his old self and finally fit into his new life. Like the poetry, life is all about change, life and death with meaning.
As Japanese, just want to say that I watched many Shogun reaction; this channel has the best. Always more deeper conversation and understanding of our culture. It is always the best part to watch the conversation you have at the end. Thank you.
A politician recently quoted her death poem and got rightly called out for cynically using a famous piece of Japanese history to hide his scummy politician ways.
No, but the truth is more interesting. A disliked prefectural governor was forced to resign due to inappropriate remarks. And for some reason, he recited the death poem of Gracia Hosokawa(Mariko)in front of reporters before EP8 release. In response, the public and the descendants of Hosokawa Gracia are so angry including me. What's funny is that the idiot governor is the governor of the Shizuoka area. That used to be the Suruga area.
@@heloheloh9177 So the controversy is not because THE SHOW did something wrong, but because a dumbass politician with zero ability to read a room used a very important historical quote in an attempt to make some petty thing they were doing look important? Yeah, even as a westerner, if I had an important historical figure in my family tree and some dipshit used my famous ancestor’s dying words as a melodramatic resignation speech in a pathetic attempt to get clout, i’d be LIVID.
"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win" Sun Tzu FOA - I'm grateful for this amazing tv series because it introduced me to your channel & Rekkai 🙏 you guys are the real deal as far as deep, thorough, thoughtful reactions🔥 To me it all comes down to "vision, mission, purpose & will" what drove all the players to this superb epilogue. Notice how all the remining characters recognized their participation in the overall vision & how fate set their actions in motion - even mighty Toronaga once saw himself dead before his eyes got opened by Blackthorne's arrival & revelations. Folks like Blackthorne & Buntaro felt their mission in life was over once Mariko-sama passed away - YET Toronaga's influence in the situation drove them to move on & find "purpose" in the life that is in front of them.... by starting again, from scratch, by helping one another..... (beautiful conclusion) Shogun rating to me is 9.8/10 AMAZING!
Thumbs up to your spot on reviews/comments throughout the 10 episodes. A Japanese here who lived in US for about 5 years is very happy to see Americans like you two with such knowledge/undestandings of Japanese culture/mentality as I met no Americans like you while I was there.
Toranaga played everyone, including us the audience, with his smile to Yabasuge as he died, he admitted to him he had planned this all along to become Shogun, while fooling us all that he wasnt interested in power. Great writing, turning around all the usual sterotypes of lazy writing these days to subvert our expecations, and this made it far more realistic, no happy endings and we all get manipulated for the sake of others power. Best show on TV for years, although not everyone will recoginize the depth of it, happy to see you guys appreciated it.
It was the same left-side mounth smirk he gave after the "Unless I win" line from Ep 2. Perfect "show don't tell" that the devil's advocate talk discussed in this reaction.
Rekkai statement about Japanese mentality is spot on. I was stationed in the Philippines in 1974 when Hiroo Onoda, a Japanese intelligence officer of the Imperial Japanese Army, hiding in the jungle finally surrendered. The Japanese government had to use loud speakers for weeks and fly in fellow soldiers to convince him the war was over. There are similar incidents in Indonesia.
I loved how they used the pre-seppuku dialogue between Toranaga and Yabushige as a message to the audience. We finally get to hear what Toranaga has been thinking all along. I love how you both discussed the non-verbal communication going on. Conversations with a head nod. That smirk exchange between Toranaga and Yabushige was so perfect and Blackthone’s “hmmm” to Toranaga was the cherry on top. I agree, this was a phenomenal finale.
FUN FACT: It turns out that the ashes of James Clavel, the author of Shogun, were also spread in that very same lake where Blackthorne takes Fuji to spread her husband and child's ashes. And the producers of the show didn't even know! Clavel's daughters and grandaughters were invited to set when they shot that scene because it was close to where they lived, and they began getting incredibly emotional as they realized what scene was being shot.
I'm gonna third that, love the whole network of reactions. 😂 I don't even be watching the shows forreal sometimes, just the reactions, but Shogun been on fire
@@nobodyexceptme7794 There are shows now, for real, I'm just letting Jaby/Achara and Syntell/Rekkai watch for me! LOL!!! It goes quicker and it's more fun!
Rekkai spitting knowledge!! My son actually was in Japan last month. It was his dream trip. He got home the day before the last earthquake. This series is excellent.
I can understand the frustration with those that were expecting a huge battle during the final episode, but I love it because of the realization that we’ve all been played by Toranaga he revealed his secret heart to yagoshiba of Toranaga’s secret heart that all of the sacrifices of all that were close to him were for Toranaga to become Shogun something he continuously denied
Who would have thought the quote of the episode would come from yabushigi of all people. "It’s hypocrisy, our lives. All this death and sacrifice from lesser men just to ensure some victory in our names."
Mariko was raised for this. Toranaga sent her to flagrantly embody the dispositions and the aspirational ideals of the Gentry. Her way made the descent into craven avarice and mendacity of the highborn glaringly apparent. She decimated the status quo with her splendor and gave Toranaga room to play...3D Chess.😂
I swear watching Toronaga is like studying a master class in Sun Tzu's Art of War. Great reaction guys. Such an outstanding series. Hope they clean house come Emmy season.
I really enjoyed listening to you two's reactions and intelligent musings. Thank you! As a Japanese, it was a real pleasure to see such a wonderful historical drama set in Japan made in the US. And I'll leave you with a few details about the real people who were the models for the three main characters! Enjoy, if you will😄 Tokugawa Ieyasu, who became the model for Toranaga, fell Osaka Castle 15 years after the Battle of Sekigahara. There he drove the concubine and son of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who served as the model for Taikoh, to commit suicide (or more precisely, on the orders of Ieyasu's son), destroying the Toyotomi clan and establishing peace for over 250 years. Incidentally, the battle at Osaka Castle puts Ieyasu in such a pinch that he considers committing seppuku, but it is a little interesting that the last name of the samurai who pushed him to that point is Sanada. Mariko's model, Hosokawa Gracia, was a devout Christian. She refused to be taken hostage by Ishida Mitsunari , the model for Ishido, and chose death. When the house was surrounded by Ishida's army, she let her maid and others escape from the house, but she herself remained. As a Christian, she could not commit suicide, so she asked her vassal to kill her. This was the order of Hosokawa Tadaoki , the model for Buntaro. For him, it was to protect his wife's honor and Gracia, the daughter and wife of a samurai, knew her role. After the vassal killed her, he set fire to the house and committed suicide. The priest picked up her bones from the burnt ruins and buried them in the Christian cemetery. Tadaoki, who was famous for his unusual love for his wife, was devastated by her death. He requested and attended her funeral at the church. Ishida Mitsunari was also surprised by Gracia's spectacular end, and from then on, he would not take hostages without reason. William Adams, the model for Blackthorn, was a diplomat under Tokugawa Ieyasu. He was the first foreigner to receive the title of Samurai. He was given the name Miura Anjin, married in Japan, and had children. The site of his house is located in Tokyo. In his later years, he received permission to return to England, which he had longed to do, but he did not return. This was because he did not get along with the commander of the ship he was to board. The commander was a young Englishman, and Adams considered him a brash brat with no sense of propriety, and the commander was very irritated that Adams insisted on the Japanese way of doing everything. In other words, William Adams had become a samurai at heart, not just a title.
Killed it guys. I was with Syntell right after, but after thinking about it today I’m with Rakkai, I loved the ending. Learned so much about Japanese culture throughout this show. I also think this is the ending a show like Game of Thrones wanted with Bran becoming king. I think Shogun executed that much better, Being able to see at least some of Toranaga’s moves and he at least admit to some of them made the scheme more impactful. his final look to Yabushigue Is almost like Bran saying, “ why do you think I came all this way?”
10:40 In Japanese Buddhism, the Fudo Myo-o is one of major mythical figures protecting the faith. It's supposed to "ward off temptation" that prevents the faithful's path towards Enlightenment. Which was a perfect for Yabushige: despite his fierce reputation, his eternal opportunism shows us that he's the most weak-willed lord in Toranaga's retinue. I really hope this show sweeps all the awards shows this season. Its such an exquisitely-crafted production, and provokes intelligent questions and conversations among its viewers -- who hail from multiple countries and cultures. *That's* unique, as this is the first time I've seen comments written in Nihongo and Hangul in multiple NA-based YT channels discussing and praising the show. I've even seen channels from Latin America -- from both Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries -- reacting positively to it. Only a storytelling masterpiece can achieve something like that.
God bless Rekkai for his insights, especially on the last part. We in the healthcare industry have what we call situational algorithms. For example: what to do in case of a person having a cardiac arrest. The goal is to revive the person, but it branches off into many different what if scenarios, and different sets of steps that needed to be taken; all of which would lead to the same goal in the end. This would be a very basic way to see how Toranaga plans things out for my healthcare workers out there. Or the “study the wind” analogy. The best sailors don’t hope for a favourable wind nor try to bullheadedly keep to their preconceived plans in the real situation: they adjust their sails to whichever way the wind blows in order to reach their destination. Because in reality, the mentality “it’s my way or the highway” almost never truly pans out.
"Show don't tell" has been misinterpreted by so many as "Needs more action." Showing: Toranaga smirking after Blackthorne says, "Unless I win." Telling: Toranaga sometime later saying to Hiromatsu or whoever, "I was amused by what the Anjin said about winning and agree with it because it reflects my own outlook."
So, they did a fairly good job of presenting the final couple of chapters of the book in this episode, especially when you consider that the explanation for what has really been going on all happens in Toranaga's head as he enjoys a final day of flying his falcon and tidying up business before heading off to battle the next day. There's a lot to unpack though... 1. The visions of old Blackthorne back in England are just that, visions. Neither he nor the real life person William Adams would ever leave Japan. In both cases, he goes on to become an important samurai retainer of Toranaga/Tokugawa, marries a Japanese woman, has a family, etc. 2. In the book, Toranaga gives Kiku (the courtesan) to Blackthorne as his wife. Despite what you might think, she is overjoyed by this, because she gets to join the samurai social class and her children will be born into that class even if they are mixed race. 3. Toranaga gives Omi a major promotion, granting him a large amount of land and income since he's been grooming him for high rank right from the start. 4. A greatly expanded version of Izu province is given to Blackthorne as his personal fief, all on the advice of Fuji. 5. Fuji does not become a nun, instead Toranaga gives her permission to take her own life, although he makes several attempts to convince her to live. He values her abilities greatly and thinks that the loss of her skills as an administrator and advisor is senseless. 6. It was Toranaga who arranged for Mariko to make the deal sparing Blackthorne's life in exchange for the destruction of the ship. 7. The people helping Blackthorne pull up the ship are his personal samurai. Earlier in the story he was afforded an entire retinue of ronin as his personal body guard. Once he becomes lord of Izu, they will formally become samurai again, and no longer be ronin. 8. Buntaro doesn't help with the ship, but he does thank Blackthorne for protecting his wife in Osaka, while using Father Alvito as translator. This is after he has appealed to Toranaga, asking to kill Blackthorne, stating that he knows that they were fucking and he doesn't care what anyone has to say about it. Toranaga then reveals that Mariko was no longer his wife, and that he had ordered the two of them divorced. Therefore, it doesn't matter who she was banging (in the book, there is a long journey to Osaka after the Buntaro and Mariko tea ceremony that took an entire month. Mariko and John were intimate the entire time and everyone pretended to not notice.) Mariko, however, had requested that the divorce not be revealed until after her death, so as to spare Buntaro any shame. 9. Omi had uncovered a plot by Yabu to turn on Toranaga if neccessary during battle with the help of the musket/cannon regiment. All of the officers were involved in the plot, and Toranaga arranged for them all to be on watch the night the ship was burned. He then used this as pretext to execute them all as traitors. That's who those heads belonged to in the village (in the book they're lining the beach.) He does not, however, punish the villagers, since they had absolutely nothing to do with it. 10. Blackthorne does attempt seppuku, but much earlier in the story, after he starts to go native. I don't remember the exact details, but I believe it was at a dinner held in Anjiro. I think that Omi insults him or some other thing (I really don't recall,) and he decides he can't live with it, so he attempts seppuku in front of everyone at the dinner. Omi has to grab the knife and stop him. Everyone, both Omi and Mariko included, are awed by this, and everyone treats him differently afterward. His close brush with death also changes the way Blackthorne sees the world, and is a major step in him becoming Japanese, culturally if not ethnically. 11. Toranaga doesn't say that he wants Blackthorne to live because he makes him laugh. Instead, he says that he needs at least one friend, and since Blackthorne is alien and not part of Japanese politics, he can rely on him as that one friend. He also appreciates that Blackthorne thinks in the same bold ways that he does, even if he's not as smart or sophisticated. 12. Toranaga admits that all of this has been according to his plan, and that he has been scheming to become Shogun ever since he manipulated Mariko's father into killing Goroda.
Great points from the book. I wish they had more time for Omi and Blackthorne's rivalry, Toranaga's elder son and wife and more Rodrigues of course! Toranaga's exposition at the finale in the book is so good. The show nailed the book though. A masterpiece adaptation of a masterpiece book. You think they have enough juice to try Tai-Pan on? It is relevant right now with the China and Hong Kong/economic connections. Might be interesting.
@@ChonkedaDevil I doubt it. I think Hiroyuki Senada was the driving force behind the show, and I'm not sure that he would have that level of interest in a story about China.
One last point. Why do you think Toranaga freed his falcon. Because he had another replacement which is the anjin. Remember he compared him to a falcon in earlier episodes.
loved reading the comments of last reaction saying how much people loved both your attention to story and details etc been a pleasure watching these reactions, insane year for shows and the boys / house of dragons still to come wow!🤝🍿
I absolutely loved this show and enjoyed the finale. I’m all for a more different creative direction for me personally. I do understand your thoughts Syntell perfectly and I appreciate both of your perspectives. This is beyond chess.. this is strategic methodology warfare 😂. Great reaction as always.
Throughout the series Toranaga's primary motivation was to avoid a war and protect the legacy of the heir. So I feel the finale kept true to series as a whole. All the comments made in the wrap-up are valid and have merit. I think the producers/writers meant the ending to promote conversation.
I loved the ending. First of all it shows the kind of epigenetics of Toranaga, his bloodline. His genetic history is of Shoguns, Samurais,warlords. Ishido was a peasant. Toranaga is just too advanced thus why he returns his bloodline to the Shogun position. I loved how this episode was about relationships, heartbreak, sadness, and grief and rebuilding from that. The priest and Anjin made peace. Yabu made peace with his nephew, left him all his assets. John showing Fuji how to let her family be together forever in peace as a parting gift before she becomes a nun. Buntaro accepting the drink from John and helping the crew pull the erasmus out of the water. Very subtle way of saying bro I loved her too peace offering. Loved it
Watching this with you two was a very good, intelligent and amazing reaction ... 😮😮😮😮 I'm sooooo impressed how you two understood the realistic of the story, with every layer and every reference in the storytelling 😮😮😮😮 Best youtube reaction channel 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰 Through the minds of a forgotten history that still has the same human spirit of today wars and strangles ... 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺 Thank you very much from the same place in the mountains of deep Africa...
Rekkai is right, Blackthorne hallucinated the return to England. Both the novel Blackthorne and the real person William Adams died in Japan. William Adams is buried in Japan.
And that's how you play chess. Toranaga set up the pieces so expertly, so well. No unnecessary blood was spilled. With regards to your commentary about vengeance to satisfy the audience, nah. It wouldn't contribute anything to the story. I think Toranaga's reveal during his monologue was enough. Brilliantly done! This was a satisfying ending IMHO. Thanks again for your insights and reaction. I'm currently going through your back catalogue of reactions and thoroughly enjoying them. In particular, Doctor Who.
I mean yeah, but didn’t he also order peasants who were NOT saboteurs to be executed and their heads put on pikes? When he himself ordered the ship destroyed?
Toranaga doesn't only spill blood when necessary. Toranaga just doesn't believe in meaningless death. Like what mariko said, there is value in death. Toranaga will kill and sacrifice anyone if there is value in doing so.
The greatest line ever within context of a series I've ever heard. -Why tell a dead man the future- Darn!!! Call me naive but I get lost in thoughts processing such complex simplicity. Man 10/10 ending. Although living in a visual space, its refreshingly insightful to engage other stimulants deciphering a historic tale.
Answering some of your unresolved questions: The catholic church: the matter of the catholic church is resolved for the mean time. The church has decided to remove themselves from the current conflict and have somewhat made arrangements to side with toranaga. The expulsion of all Christians is a story for another day much further down the timeline. Buntaro and his relationship with mariko: this was resolved at the end of the tea ceremony. Mariko put it quite plainly that her wish is to be free of Buntaro. Buntaro crys because he finally understands exactly what mariko wants. Omi and his future: omi fulfills his arch by succeeding yabushigi. He is introduced as an aspiring lord. His mother tells him that he should be a lord of more than just a simple fishing village and she encourages him to rise by impressing his uncle. He is now the head of the kashige family and likely to inherit much of izu. His future is to become an important vassal to toranaga in the upcoming battle as stated by yabushigi. Blackthorn's arch and his flashbacks: Blackthorn's flash backs are dreams of his end if he were to go back to England. However by the end of the episode, his hopes to go home have all but ended. Blackthorn by attempting to kill himself to protest toranaga's treatment of the villagers has accepted his place in japan. In turn the people of japan have accepted Blackthorn which is symbolized with the village working together to pull the boat out of the water. When it comes to the narrative, the battle of sekigahara is essentially unnecessary. The whole point of the story was how toranaga won the war before it was even fought. The outcome is clear from the outset and we already know largely how it will unfold. A battle would only serve as gratuitous entertainment and would infact muddle the importance of the story being told. In more ways than 1, the battle of sekigahara is its own story with little in common with the character driven, political drama that is shogun.
In stories, as analogs for life, we are very concerned with beginning, middle and end. We seek a resolution. This is illusion, as time is a circle that is not round. I do not believe that even death is a resolution, but only a turning at strange angles, eddies upon the currents. Embrace the flow, study the wind...
39:44 to add to your point, I think there will be two types of Western (American, European, Caucasian) audiences here in the end. The Majority, as you said, would keep the Yabushige mentality until the end: always out for number one, only looking at what is directly in front of him and not being able to see past the step he is currently taking. And a select few will become what Blackthorne became at the end of the road: though he does not fully understand the culture, nor does he agree with all of it, he has learned to respect it, maybe even admire it.
Amazing reaction, I think this is the first channel to catch on with some subtle messages. like fuji and anjin letting go of fuji's family remains to the sea so all she does to remind herself of her family, she can just lookout at sea. Impressive
A masterpiece my friends you don’t always need violence and action to have impact on a story, a very poetic and beautiful job , I’ve watched shogun the 80s version a hundred times and this was job well done hope they win all the awards and lady mariko oh my what a lady ❤😢 👏🏼
Toranaga is a master manipulator who used everyone around him to achieve his goal. He deceived everyone into thinking he's righteous when in fact he is no different from everyone else. "A Dream of a Dream" - Blackthorn going back, growing old and dying in England is a Dream which he had to let go. He never left the Japans.
Syntell I’m completely with you. I’m not even an action tard, but the entire promotion before release was the battle. The promotional poster and cover of Shogun itself is even Toranaga riding on horseback with an army behind him. They set the tone for that expectation. It’s a shame it wasn’t delivered. We just wanted the PAYOFF for the build up and to see Toranaga rightly crowned
Good reactions guys; intelligent I would say; as you actually do take care to follow the plot which many reactors forget in their urge to over react to each new scene.
I was slightly disappointed when we didn't see a war. But realized, Toranaga was a man that didn't want war and wanted a peaceful Japan. I hope people appreciate his brilliant maneuvering with all the tragic sacrifices him and his followers had to make to accomplish this. Mariko ultimately won Toranaga the war. I think the actress for Mariko deserves all the awards, and with this episode the actor for Anjin at the very least deserves nominations.
@@JynxedKoma Yes I am saying how the show didn't show the war. It didn't need to. In reality the real life Toronaga wasn't as 'good' as the show portrayed him. But we are talking about a fictional show loosely based on reality.
In the real world Tokugawa, the man Toranaga is based on, actually built up what would be known as the red seal ships. The ships were heavily inspired by European style ships. So in the story timeline Blackthorne probably was responsible for introducing the modern ship designs to Japan that were used immediately after the story ends.
@@PB-tr5ze Thus Toranaga telling Blackthorn to build him a fleet. So Im sure once the erasmus was repaired they took that blueprint and engineered a fleet based on that
Tokugawa at the very end, will kill the taiko´s heir and all his family, just to ensure his plans to rule and keep all japan united, and damn, he did it for the next 250 years... until the Meiji restauration era.
「オーガは、彼が足元に花を押しつぶした瞬間に、彼の貴重な葉のない枝を失いました。結局のところ、姉妹」 “The Ogre lost his precious Leafless Branch the moment he crushed the Flower underfoot; sisters in the end, after all” For the first time in the entire series, Ochiba sama looks directly to Ishido while talking to him; in all other episodes, she glances at him but looks away. That was the most subtle, passive-aggressive death stare I have seen on screen to date.💀🫣🪦 Yabushige and Toranaga smirking at each other in the end was awesome, too. Yabushige got the best end he could have gotten, considering all he has done: realizing that whether he knew it or not, he has served his Lord Toranaga excellently. And maybe, just maybe, lightening the burden in his conscience a bit. Goodbye to our favourite sociopath. 🙇🙇♀️🙇♂️ Blackthorne kills a possible future version of himself-an old man, filled with regret, clutching on to Mariko’s crucifix-by mirroring Mariko (literally doing a ritual su!c!d3 like a woman [a blade through the heart] instead of seppuku [slicing his belly open] like a samurai would) in order to protect Ajiro: the first completely selfless thing he has done in the show; and also by letting that exact same crucifix go into the water along with the ashes of Fuji-sama’s family. And to think he did all those things mostly as an act of kindness to Fuji-sama… she deserves the best. 🥹🥹🍑 Also, the fact that Anjin used the word 詰まらない【つまらない】 (tsumaranai) when he said “my war is small” can also be translated to “my wars are petty/trivial/silly/worthless” in reference to his ambitions and designs for England and his war against the Catholics. That was him letting go of his personal ambitions for something greater. The setup to be in a position to win the final battle is mostly complete, and the broad strokes were revealed, but the details of the plan and how the battle ensued are still hidden. So who is ready for a “new/separate” mini-series, titled “Sekigahara”? Ohhh, and what was Toranaga holding in his left hand just before it cut to the title card? 🪶✝️🎌
There’s some meta commentary from the show here where Mariko is telling us audience, “we live and we die, we control nothing else.” - and that includes the ending haha I think also Ishido was never really the main antagonist of the show - it’s a story of man against fate And as an audience also we are forced to reckon with our own beliefs about fate and destiny depending on how we see the ending
Ishido was my guy, shame the snake Toranaga tricked Ochiba. Great acting and overall production. An awesome miniseries I won't soon forget. Thanks for the reactions.
Ishido being a peasant, I think he was more short sighted. I don't see him as a villain or antagonist. Matter of fact Ishido was much less dishonorable than Iyama who really seemed deeper into the bad side of the scale
The season ended with the book. There is a big battle after that but like in the show it's only talked about in the book by Toranaga. Truthfully this ending is appropriate since the war was lost the moment Toranaga pulled most of Ishido's support from him. He actually wins the war afterwards in around 6hours. Then he was happily placed as Shogun by the pawns themselves who never realised how masterfully they were manipulated. The only thing I disagreed with the show doing was killing off his son. Toranaga loved that boy. He was probably the only one he truly loved.
When Toranaga said ''Why tell a dead man the future'' it was a reference to what Yabushige said about Toranaga to Omi in the early episodes, which could mean Omi could have been more Loyal to Toranaga from start to begin with, because that's the only way he could have known about this message.
First, love your show. I very much enjoyed the discussion, reactions, and context. Just a few things…none of what you said was unresolved. Mariko and Bontaro’s relationship was handled when she walked out of the door. What you saw was Blackthorne’s dream when he was knocked out - this is confirmed by seeing him drop Mariko’s rosary into the water. We didn’t see them march to the battlefield, but we didn’t need to. We saw him receive Lady Oshiba’s letter so we know what he predicted happened. Omi’s loyalty to Toranaga was clear because he was no longer wearing the colors of Yabushige, he was wearing those of Toranaga. We don’t see the outcome of the Catholic Church because there is nothing to see until later in history - in the short term they got their church in Edo. He made a sacrifice of those most important to him for the greater good. Food for thought…telling Yabushige “why tell a dead man he future” is what Yabushige said at the beginning about Toranaga to Omi. Hence, Omi was likely loyal to Toranaga from the beginning and that was Toranaga letting Yabushige know that piece of information. As westerners this show highlights our need for blood and willingness to forego honor and loyalty as well as believe the individual is more important than the whole perspective. If we let that ideology go we can see how the ending reflects a non-western philosophy. The loss of Nagakado, Hiromatsu, and Mariko saved them from war and led to generations of peace - the loss of 3 for the lives of many.
I love a bittersweet ending. When it comes to stories like these, it’s always the journey not the destination that really mattered. We all knew Toranaga would win and become Shogun (it was in the title) - what mattered were the scenes of people sitting around talking, scheming, being silly. I’ve never fallen so much in love with so many characters (except Game of Thrones) - this was a masterpiece.
What is that series that we just got through watching where the guy has to keep the plan in his head? Toranaga reminds me of that. He never revealed all of his plan to any one person.
Like Rekkai, I value the series keeping to its form more than meeting popular expectation. The downfall of Game of Thrones started when "hollywood" tried to mimic a singular unique author. They failed and season 6-8 were much lower class. This ending maintained its character and was an appropriate epilogue to the real battle in episode 9.
Was he the villain though? Without him as Shogun there would have been much infighting and many wars until the heir was of age if he ever even makes it to age. He literally sacrificed a bishop and rook to save everyone else.in his clan and countless lives across the island
Yagushibo was smiling back at Toranaga when he was committing seppuku because Toranaga revealed his secret heart to him, something he told Mariko must never be told
One last note. Toranaga secret heart which yobu noticed was just like all wicked men. That’s why they shared a smile. Toranaga hid the fact that he wasn’t a good man but menancing he’s just hiding that from everyone. And thus won
You couldn't be more wrong. Toranaga was not at all a wicked or evil man. He was a man of purity seeking only the best for his people -- which was peace in his and future generations times. And that is exactly what he created.
Also Toranaga didn’t believe in pointless death. He didn’t want Japan to go through a big civil war. Especially when he sees the bigger threats coming from the west. He needed to have a stable Japan so they can advanced and learn from their “enemies”
I’ve seen the original with my father when I was a child. This made everyone like Toranaga but in the original he actually said he’ll never let the anjin leave. In like a menancing way.
Toranaga freed Anjin from a life of destruction and selfishness. He guided Anjin down the path to enlightenment and into becoming a better man, serving a brighter future than the one he lived and craved whilst he was still John Blackthorne.
I didn't care about that. In the end Blackthorne learned about their culture and how they view life and death. It's beautiful that John finally let all his "audacity and self righteousness go".
Spoilers for end of the book !…..(There is a great bit in the book as a postscript : When he was young, Ishido was prophesied to die an old man. Toranaga has him buried up to his neck so that people could saw at his neck with a bamboo sword. “Ishido lingered three days and died very old.”)
dunno i kinda got the vibe Fuji would stay with blackthorn after that boat scene. The structure and editing of the scene seems to imply it. also her letting go of her husband and child, means there is no motevation left for her to leave the clan and become a nun anymore.
Possible since she also said she just wanted to be close with her family's remains and didnt know what to do with it thats why she wanted to bury it on a temple nearby thus become a nun but it seems the last scene have answered otherwise a new path for Fuji. Tbf, Blackthorne irl got married to a japanese.
Fuji said "I should bury them in the family temple, but I wish to be close to them. I'm not sure what to do..." Blackthorn later comes up with a solution, "I've always been of the mind that a soul committed to the deep is a soul who, in some way, lives on forever within it. Understand? Together... forever. Fuji is supposed to bury the ashes at her family temple but is hesitant to do so because she wants to be close to her family. She is unsure of what to do because she is to become a nun soon and won't be able to take them with her. Blackthorn finds a solution which is that in his way to thinking people who are buried at sea become one with the sea. Therefore, in a place like japan where the sea is ever present, fuji can be together with her family forever even as she becomes a nun.
Yea didn't like the last 3 episodes. Can't stand tornaga he is the true villain of the show. If this is what he's pulling in the show no wonder the council wanted him dead in ep 1. Not sure the point of this season. Is there a second season? There's two battles missed with only one talked about.
Again, toranaga is NOT a villain. You realize what was going to happen if he was not Shogun and they waited until the heir was of age? he sacrificed the minimal number of people to prevent YEARS of civil war, a fractured japan, with colonizers with their claws in already.
