we're the asian kids in affirmative action america (whoa) 

Thank you for talking about this. I went to UC Berkeley and have been thinking about this topic for a while, especially when Affirmative Action was put on the ballot in California and failed. The rising tensions between black and Asian Americans due to topics like these, especially in areas like NY and the Bay Area, are also weird to navigate. I am very neutral on the topic of Affirmative Action. I understand the positives when done correctly, and my preference is that if it's used, it aids low-income students regardless of race. The byproduct of this would lead to more racial diversity and opportunities for talented students that had fewer resources in their local public schools. That being said, I question the narrative being pushed about black people and the need for Affirmative Action. It's based on the belief that black people are not achieving and not going to college, which is untrue. The HBCU system is a large educator of black Americans in the country, where they could easily have upwards of 80+% black students. What about trade schools or the CSU system? Are the achievements of black Americans only taken seriously if we go to Yale or Stanford? When I was at Cal (which does not use AA), it seemed that the majority of the black student body were African or Caribbean immigrants, mixed-race, athletes with good grades, suburbanites, and people whose parents were already doctors or lawyers. When you look at schools like Harvard that also use Affirmative Action, the demographics seem to be the same. It's hard for me to believe that Affirmative Action would really benefit the low-income, low-resourced black students that it claims to be helping. It just seems like it would help the demographic of black students who already would have gotten into these schools anyways. One other thing about this discussion that is really telling, is that no one is talking about legacy admissions. Conservative groups seem to be using Asian Americans as pawns to throw out Affirmative Action initiatives and cite unfair admission practices, but legacy applications get accepted at something anything from a 16-33% rate, which is huge for an Ivy. Legacy admissions benefit wealthy white students and help keep the face of these schools white, but there's still so much focus on Affirmative Action. You can tell this topic is used to incite feelings of rage between minority groups and benefit a specific agenda.

this is such a great listen - love your delivery and your perspective on this topic! it's been bothering me (as a an asian american myself) and so happy to see this articulated so clearly with history and your personal experience as well as the legal perspective of it. love this episode!

Thanks for sharing your opinion Cece‼️ I think many people (me included) are interested in your analysis with respect to (not only this case) the various court cases being argued at the moment around the country. I feel this channel is on the cusp of major success! Keep bringing the FIRE 🔥🥵

hi cece. i'm not even gonna lie. somehow, someway, this episode made me feel a little bit better about exactly what you said in the intro... the perils and frissons of life. isn't that wonderful? i'm feeling so connected to humanity on a friday 9pm night, and it's thanks to you. sending love across time and space.

Loved the video! Great camera and audio quality. First time I’ve heard you bring up the federalist stuff, great to hear you address it. You seem way more comfortable in-front of the camera!

Such a germane video. I’ve been reading more about affirmative action because I still have trouble “picking a side” on this issue. I highly recommend The Asian American Achievement Paradox, a well-written, sociologist’s view of the purported success of contemporary Asian American immigrants.

I love your videos and always jump to them when they are posted!!!!!! wish they are on Spotify too so I could listen to them without video at the gym

It's rare to see a fellow Asian share many of the sentiments you expressed in this video, especially during 20:21-21:23. I completely resonate and agree with so many segments of this podcast, and was so proud to hear your words. I am an Asian American from the bay area and graduated from UC Berkeley. As you can imagine the majority of my peers in college were EXACTLY like me. It was incredibly rare to see Asian and BIPOC kids intermingling beyond interactions that derived only due to proximity (e.g. group work, pre-professional club events, etc.) so I really cherished the few friends I was able to make from different walks of life. I definitely felt over-represented while I was in college and wish I had more opportunities to get to know others outside of my expected ingroup. At times it did feel like an uphill battle to do so because very understandably BIPOC students felt more comfortable among themselves; likewise with Asians. The anti-affirmative action movement weaponizes Asian anger/resentment against the admissions process, and it sadly works on the Asian populous EVERY time. In my opinion dismantling affirmative action isn't going to achieve the goal of getting more "deserving Asians" through the door but rather put Asians overall at a disadvantage anyway particularly when considering the impact it would have on Southeast Asians, who notoriously suffer from lower poverty rates and typically don't have the resources to get into a school like Princeton or Yale. It's one thing to rework affirmative action (and to rework it well...) but another to get rid of it in its entirety which I don't agree with and would never support personally.

New video podcast! Thanks for mentioning Asian American issues. Very interesting!❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️💯💯💯💯💯👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Thank you Cece for sharing your views on affirmative action

Love this episode! I haven’t finished the whole thing (2/3 there)but wanted to comment before I lose my thought. I would also argue that Gao Kao is not that much of an equalizer nowadays (I know it’s used as a reference point in this episode and I just wanted to add some color to it based on my observation). Different cities/regions have different educational resources (incl. quality of school, quality of teachers, access to systematic training of test-taking, etc.). Different provinces also have different score thresholds for various universities. Whether the students end up in a high school that prepares students well for Gao Kao is only one of the determinants of scoring high, and so many different factors play into how they end up in those schools (luck, parents’ wealth and connections, etc.). On top of that, many traditionally “masculine” majors still give male students more lenient score thresholds than female ones. Now many families have more resources and options and they may even opt out of the Gao Kao route and send their kids abroad for high school and/or college. While traditionally Gao Kao really helped social mobility, it is less so nowadays.

I have to say, you have given the most balanced discussion on this matter. A lot better and a lot more in depth reflecting understanding than the established media channels.

Great episode! To add to what was already said, I also question why people are so upset about affirmative action, but not preferential treatment given to students who have legacy, whose parents happen to donate a lot to the school, or who have the resources to train and get a spot as a student athlete? My other thought: I support affirmative action in its intention, but I observed that it didn’t quite resolve the lack of socioeconomic diversity in the colleges. Is a rich white kid going to school with rich Asian and rich black kids diversity? And are these institutions doing enough to support first generation or low income kids?

Hey Cece, thank you a lot for the video, i think it is really insightfull. I was wondering if you could post a video about writting personal statements or statements of purpose for LLMs or College admisions.

I understand my parents and my relationship because of yours thanks ❤️

I like that you spoke about both sides and werent bias. That’s hard to do these days. Understanding goes a long way regardless which side of the aisle you’re on

Cece, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Legacy Admissions, as well!

So love your self aware perspective. Always believe in your uniqueness I do.

This was exceptionally well said, Cece!

It's funny the amount of information I'm learning about myself

Extremely thoughtful and insightful video! Really appreciate your vulnerability regarding your prior political beliefs as well-the world could use more of that.

nice hair ceecee! Do you film on your phone?

Conformity is a powerful incentive.

Thanks for sharing Cece! Just one piece of feedback: the episode is so much better when you're not reading directly from a script. Your natural flow of language is great, and it feels more like a conversation that way. I hope this doesn't come off as mean, I will listen regardless 😊

I’m the one who got into UCSB eventually lol, and I did not even have the guts to apply for any ivys because as an international student I had little chance to get into those prestigious schools and got no less hurt by affirmative action. It did bother me for a while cuz there’s an obsession with the prestige tied to the college you attend that often led to comparisons among our parents and peers, which I found totally toxic after I graduated. The truth is that non-ivy colleges are not necessarily incompetent in terms of career chances and educational resources. I did appreciate a lot my college life in UCSB. Your point really got me thinking, what if affirmative action disappears and thus Asians have a greater field to compete their test scores. I’m afraid that there’ll be a higher benchmark that parents set for their kids since now everyone’s got the chance, and a greater score inflation, which will eventually appear no better than GaoKao. Asians kids really need to be saved from the belief that “education is everything”, which has led to so many depressions and prevented kids whose talents are not about education from achieving their dreams.

Great sound. What is the brand of this microphone?

Hi Ce... your disclaimer made me chuckle. Just my thoughts (and not to dismiss affirmative action perse), but it's already been scientifically proven that we as humans (by our own genetic nature) are racist. In so saying, we've been genetically wired to treat those who don't look like us, talk like us, behave like us (and so on) just differently. But it only becomes evil or begins to lack meaningful equity when said treatment becomes increasingly and/or predominately tribal. With that, and I often remind my own race of people (be it family, friends, co-workers, etc) that if suddenly tomorrow the entire world were inhabited by only one race, racism (in other dimensions and examples) would still exist. Meaning (as imperfect humans), we'll still seek out a way (or ways) to exploit each other - to gain whatever advantages necessary to thrive and/or distinguish ourselves from someone else. It's basically a survival gene, something quite common within all living species here on earth. In other words (and as stark as it may be) racism, or the everyday challenges regarding race are sadly incapable.

I am sooooo appreciative of this video. Affirmative action has been a topic on my mind for weeks even months and for the longest time, I didn't know why. My guess is that because, as an Asian american, it affects me. In truth, it affects everyone which makes it all the more important. This topic deals with people's attitudes towards our belief in institutions, our ideals on education, and most importantly the desired idea of race in America versus the reality. I was and still am very depressed about the affirmative action case. I understand the frustration of the people against AA. But, I worry it comes from a place of fear rather than compassion, and fear can make people do bad things. The question on whether racial consideration is important in admissions has implications on the role race plays in American society. Race shouldn't be a factor in admissions because that implies different races have significantly inherent differences. However, this is the ideal situation but not the reality. Race shouldn't play a role but it has to in some way. I wish I could say merit is the only thing that matters in admissions but that overlooks the reality we live in where a person's race does indicate a person's chance of success and opportunity. I don't want fear to dictate the fate and opportunities other people have. College and grades shouldn't be viewed as a measure of a person's worth. It should be viewed as a place to learn how to find success in life and get a better life, and the more people of a variety of groups are exposed to that, the better our society will be for everyone. Lastly, if the way racial consideration is handled by Harvard and UNC is problematic, this shouldn't be enough to disqualify the whole of affirmative action as a concept. I truly believe the goals of affirmative action are just and eliminating any and all forms of racial consideration is not the way to resolve the issue of its implementation. Sorry for my incomprehensible rambling, but I do appreciate you talking about this and giving such a thoughtful take.

Also, it seems apparent that after the courts told them that quota is illegal, they went ahead and relabeled it race conscious, knowing that they can achieve the same quota still. It does seem devious especially since quota is textbook definition of racism. My curiosity is how did universities swung so far to the left. Like a political pendulum. Far left and far right can be damaging. And aspiring professors and staff are literally afraid that speaking out against the “race conscious mob” could mean damage to their career prospects. Whatever happened to university as haven for free speech.

I think you yourself have acknowledged where you go to law school matters for where you end up in your legal career. So I think it is disingenuous to say this fight against affirmative action for Ivy League schools doesn’t matter - it changes the trajectory of peoples lives. The truth is that it is a zero sum game - there are only so many places available. It is interesting your journey has been from conservative to liberal. I have found it to be the other way for me. Liberals are said to ‘care’ more but for who? In a world of limited resources there will always be winners and losers and it’s this dishonesty that there is some morality for caring for certain groups over others that irks me.

California got rid of affirmative action in 1996. Asian enrollment skyrocketed

I remember a talk by a Black American legal academic who compared the (anti-)discrimination law of the US (which is relatively pro-affirmative action) and France (which is staunchly anti-affirmative action, i.e. staunchly universalist). It was fascinating. She concluded that she preferred the French approach. Her reason was that empirically, the main beneficiaries of US-style affirmative action were (apparently) Black Americans who were *already* socio-economically privileged to start with, i.e. the Black Americans who needed affirmative action the least. There sure is an interesting case study in proxies there!

Your point out elite college fixation is a separate but valid issue. You can ask the black student the same question especially if he gets in on lower grades, whether elite college matters. Kamala Harris didn’t go to an elite college for undergraduate and that didn’t hold her back. Unlike the new president of Harvard who enjoyed privilege and severely punished a fellow black professor, Roland Fryer, who not only achieved greater scholarship than her but actually grew up in a broken poor family.

Were you ever affected by this? Even if you didn't go Ivy league school for undergrad, as long as you get into a top JD program, you will end up in Big Law first and wanted to quit in a few years.

It seems to me that most asian immigrant parents did not come to America to fix or even participate our racial reckoning, but to build a better life for thier kids (mostly using economic and prestige indicators.) Same with much of the Jewish community. If you threaten the most direct way for those communities to meet those goals (educational attainment) then you are messing with a core part of the social contract for them (all of our social contracts are different) and they will excerise political power to maintain core terms of that contract.

While insightful, a guest speaker could help with the “echo chamber” which is a term my former boss once used. This is easy to listen to, but the bullseye is always full of caveats, I suppose. Ultimately, it’s wrong to assume the best, most intelligent people come from the same corner of the world. Allowing strong applicants a chance to create a comparable niche elsewhere fosters an ideal created by the founding fathers, and by founding fathers, I mean the native people of America who find knowledge and wisdom in the environments they were born into. Can’t let the idea of home go!

Have you ever seen a person talk to themselves on a street, and everyone perceives them as crazy. This is how it felt watching her talk about this topic, instead of having someone to challenge her view points so maybe she can develop a more thoughtful ideas on this topic she just rambles on her personal view points not taking into account any other view points and then saying she is so much more open minded now. My homework for you is to try to challenge your self and step out of your bubble

But you don’t see affirmative action as mostly helping privileged minorities like the new president of Harvard. She went to Philip Exeter for high school. Her father was a civil engineer. Just seems like AA just makes minorities in position of power or wealth easier. Plus evaluating people on the basis of skin pigment is textbook definition of racism. Let’s make it more economics than socio especially after all wouldn’t we get better diversity by helping poor minorities.

Where does NAACP stand with regard to putting more emphasis on economics? That is, helping poor blacks more than blacks with already access to resources?

English isn't my first language and following you is really difficult. I'd love to hear you talking more, but unless i can give you 150% of my attention to you (which tbf I feel a podcast shouldn't need) I truly can't grasp the concepts fast enough. It's a shame because I know what you're saying is probably super interesting, but yeah maybe consider reading your script slower? I personally find myself able to digest a podcast completely when the hosts are just talking/chatting, maybe because the cadence is naturally easier to follow.. so another suggestion I feel giving to you is try not to read or better try just having loose bullet points to follow:) (Last time I slowed down the video to 0.75 x and still I couldn't fold my clothes because the information was that packed.. it's not necessarily a bad thing ofc, just not a podcast imho)

Fighting racial discrimination at an institution is not putting that institution on a pedestal. It's fighting racial discrimination. Fighting a discriminatory practice in the escalator of social mobility in this country is not bad sportsmanship. It's fighting a discriminatory practice. Overrepresentation does not mean there isn't discrimination. After Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in baseball, there was a pretty large uptick in lack players in the mlb. So much so that blacks (~10-15% of the population) was approaching half the lineup. There was an informal rule observed by all the owners and managers to cap the black players on the field at 4 so that there would never be a majority of lack players. Was that OK? Is it OK that asian kids are encouraged to appear less asian? We can't fit every asian kid into the ivy league but we can have a society where asian kids feel like they can be proud and loud about being asian without it hurting them in some way. I understand that there is a history in this country. But why do asian people have to make sacrifices to compensate black people for something white people did to them? Advocating against asians does not make you any more enlightened or just than anyone else. Stop it. Be better.

I can’t believe she was in the federalist society… at least she’s owning up to it

@CeCeXie 26:05 tons of people and more importantly happier in non ivy league life. You still mad about non ivy league?

How about this? Why not do what the Swiss do which is to let everyone in. And that underperformance get filtered out. At least every student knew they got the same chance. Now given technology and zoom, there seems less of a barrier for open admissions than in the past.

what's wrong with your thesis is affirmative action hurts Blacks. Putting any kid in over his head means he will leave the school, flunk out, leave the hard major he wants (because he cannot keep up), or, often, have professors grade him on a different scale (in order to keep him in the major, and not hurt the statistics for the school or department.) You can go to Mich State and be a successful lawyer, doctor, engineer, teacher, business person. You can go to Harvard and not be successful. YOu can go to Mich State and wind up at Mich Law or Cornell Med. You can go to Cornell and wind up at North Carolina State Med, or Southern Connecticut Law. Every time you get admitted somewhere -- it's a look BACK, not forward. The forward is up to you, starting with today.

I used to be against affirmative action too as an Asian American but when I think of the bigger picture, I believe it’s still necessary esp with the disparities in this country.

But you don’t see affirmative action mostly helping privileged minorities like the new president of Harvard. She went to Philip Exeter for high school. Her father was a civil engineer. Just seems like AA just makes minorities in position of power or wealth easier. Plus evaluating people on the basis of skin pigment is textbook definition of racism. Let’s make it more economics than socio especially after all wouldn’t we get better diversity by helping poor minorities instead of rich minorities.

"If there is not equality of outcomes among people born to the same parents and raised under the same roof, why should equality of outcomes be expected-or assumed-when conditions are not nearly so comparable?" - Thomas Sowell Human beings are not equal and no amount of coercion or shenanigans will ever make it so. You are just going to make it worst!!!

Do you think Obama’s daughter who went to Harvard fit the profile of underprivileged? Couldn’t her seat be given to a poor black who had the same or less academic achievement but with far less resources? Wouldn’t that add to even greater diversity?

I hate everything about affirmative action and what it stands for. I don't want my son or daughter to grow up thinking being Asian is a liability when it comes time to apply to colleges. Also, affirmative action doesn't even help Black or Brown kids.. if you take ANY group that isn't competitive to get into an elite college on their own and give them a score handicap to get them in, they will float to the bottom of every competitive major because they're competing against other groups that didn't need a score boost. Also, just letting Black and Brown kids in to elite schools does NOTHING to make them more skillful or competitive in life. The solution SHOULD be doing the hard work of making sure they're competitive in the first place before they apply to college, so they don't need a score boost to get in (which ultimately helps nothing). Affirmative action is a failure of an idea and we need to end it.

Compelling. Please slow down. Take some pauses. Change intonations and cadences. Maybe try a speech/toastmaster style story telling - Maybe that would make your speech even more compelling / otherwise it’s a 20+ min bullet running train of speech.

I am as left wing as they come, but I feel like college is too late to intervene and "help" Black, Latine, and Indigenous students. The real solution would be disconnecting local school funding from local property tax. Property taxes should be going to a larger pool and then distributed evenly between neighborhoods of all socioeconomic makeups. Of course this hasn't happened because if education was truly equalized in this country the rich people who run it would suffer a huge blow to their egos when they find out that their kids aren't so special

I’m so glad an Asian said this. Asians being appalled that 30 percent of higher education is Asian not being enough outside of the content of Asian is some of the most entitled shit I’ve ever heard.