Were our Souls Created Before our Earthly Existence? | Dr. Shabir Ally 

I've always wanted to hear such deep and detailed discussions, couldn't have been a better place by a better person. Thank-you for these beautiful, knowledgeable videos.

I notice your lens of reading Quran 7:172 is similar to tafsir Jalalayn by Imam Al-Suyuti, and I am inclined to read through this lens as well. We are blessed with fitra. When we reach maturity as adults, we need to use our reasoning to read, reflect, and understand His guidance as best as we can. Thank you for the explanation, Dr. Aly.

Jazakallah. This issue always confused me. Your explanation is logical and probably the best fit.

Every man that has ever lived, every man that is alive today, and every man that is yet to be born is already alive with God...We are on a journey to meet our past in our future ☪️

I would tend to agree with the hadiths here thinking that our souls are created and gathered before our physical existence and put in our body/embryo at the 122th day. However I enjoyed the conversations in this series, as per usual.

May Allah grant us Jannatul ferdaus ❤️🙌🏼

The two suras complement each other. I like the traditional interpretation, it's powerful and mystical. I don't think the abortion issue has anything to do with either of those two verses.

Dr. Israr Ahmed’s explanation of this verse is more logical where all souls were created in Alam e Barzak. Allah(S.W.T) asked all the human souls from Adam(A.S) till the last man to come if he was their lord and they said yes. Then they were put away till their time came to be born in this world. That’s why every human being is born on the fitrah of believing in Allah as their only God. I am huge a admirer of Dr Ally’s work but his explanation on this verse raises a lot of questions. #1) why did then Allah says in the Quran that he made Adam from clay first and then put his soul later? Doesn’t this mean Adam’s soul existed before he was fashioned by Allah from clay? 2) The same can be argued about Isa’s(a.s) birth. 3) Why in the Quran Allah says that humans have accepted to go thru the test of wordy life? 33:72 إِنَّا عَرَضۡنَا ٱلۡأَمَانَةَ عَلَى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَ ٰ⁠تِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ وَٱلۡجِبَالِ فَأَبَیۡنَ أَن یَحۡمِلۡنَهَا وَأَشۡفَقۡنَ مِنۡهَا وَحَمَلَهَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنُۖ إِنَّهُۥ كَانَ ظَلُومࣰا جَهُولࣰا﴿ ٧٢ ﴾ • Sahih International: Indeed, We offered the Trust[[The acceptance of obligations and obedience to Allāh.]] to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, and they declined to bear it and feared it; but man [undertook to] bear it. Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant.[[Coveting its reward while forgetting the penalty for failure to keep his commitment.]] Al-Ahzab, Ayah 72 How do you explain that?

Counter argument: this topic is not relevant to abortion. That aside, using the same logic, maintaining consistency of thought, like how you give the room for plausibility of souls being an emergent property, one could extend the same to give room for the plausibility of souls being an non-emergent property. I hope you notice the incoherency. Another point I'd like to make is, about the questioning of athiests on why they had forgotten of their beliefs etc. First, yet again irrelevant to abortion, and second, you could give various analogies to support either side of that specific argument, and some of them would be on how atheists too have fitrah but the ignorance and/or the arrogance they choose to adhere to keeps them from recognising the fitrah within them. To rest the case, Allah clearly stated that there are things we don't know and we don't understand. Like many, this is yet another topic which we cannot and should not take one side or the other with conviction unless authentic hadith counters either. AssalamuAlaikum wrwb

Most scholars explain 7:172 as an event that took place some time in the past and happened simultaneously to all human "to be". But you clearly open the possibility that the "mithaq" might be happened to each person according to his/her time living in this dunya, which I also think more logical and more in line with other quranic verses such as 32:7-9, that we were given the hearing, sight, and fuad only after Allah blow the ruh, and only then the mithaq could happen. Jazakallah Sheikh.. May Allah bless you.. 🙏

Excellent response.... I love your arguments.

6 minutes in and I don't know what I'm listening to. Dr Shabbir Ally please be more concise with your answers, jazakAllah

We are so blessed wuth dr Shabir! I never seen such wise takes on the I nterpretations of the Quran! All muslim word should watch this and think

The traditional interpretation is solid: it's part of fitrah to believe in God. That's what the story tells us. May Allah guide us all.

There is no past, present and future as we understand. We don’t have a true understanding of time.

Love the seriessssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

I know for sure we are created as soul before. May be most of readers don’t believe me but as a small child of 6, 7 years old, I knew I had another life. Because I was very smart, after saying to my mom, she refused it , I remember exactly that I should not tell others, because they don,t believe me. So all my life I knew we had another life. I don’t remember so many things in my childhood,why I remember that vividly, so it must be very important for me or some how it was different experience.

So the soul is not pre-created but an emergent property? What is meant by this? Emerging from what? Please clarify, Dr. Shabir Ally.

On this one issue I tend to feel that all souls knew God and bore witness to him in the spiritual realm before they were descended on the physical realm. Also we know that every human being is born with God consciousness, fitra. And Allah swt knows best!

but the question is: if we were all souls before. why the need to "reincarnate" us into humans, animals, etc. what triggered the need for god to do that? did something happen for god to shepherd the souls and make them reincarnate into this realm?

Quran clearly says what is not of ur knowledge do not go behind questioning it

Really wished this video was clearer. Coming downs in the comments I can see that I’m not the only one who got confused about it. Allah knows best

In this world, we're both a soul (spirit) & its vessel (our physical body) - maybe that's the reason we can't remember Allah's pre-birth contract. However, interestingly after death, our souls can run something called a "life review" & remember events hidden from our physical body & brain (from subconscious portion of our brain), like in the case of فبصرك اليوم الحديد There're some Muslims who had Near-Death-Experience ( or call it: Temporary Death) & spoke about life-review & having much clear senses or memory than in this world.

Do you remember anything about being in your mother's womb? We don't but that doesn't mean we didn't exist or have consciousness. Allah swt gathered us before this world and he will gather us after destruction of this earth once again for judgement day. So basically our soul journeys through different stations and final abode is afterlife.

I just took my shahada but I still have some Christian ideologies that I can't or at least hard for me to shake I was never a trinitarian Christian but I was wandering because of my studies before I took my shahada I knew we believe in the same God but my main question is could someone be a Unitarian Christian and still be Muslim more like a Islamic Christian

I’ve noticed that modern Muslims tend to ask questions that do not benefit them in any way, that’s too bad.

thank you!!! may god bless you

Salamun Alaikum JazakAllah Khair for the clarifications. If we’re saying that we shall not have promised Allah as we may have not existed before, then how do we reflect on the verse 2:38 where Allah Azza wa jal asks everyone to descend down and follow the guidance. 2:38 قُلْنَا ٱهْبِطُوا۟ مِنْهَا جَمِيعًۭا ۖ فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّى هُدًۭى فَمَن تَبِعَ هُدَاىَ فَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ ٣٨ We said, “Descend all of you! Then when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows it, there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.

This is interesting we as Shia Muslims in our doctrine it states that this event event took place in the world of the particles(a'lam Al dharr) this was a world before we all came into being and in this world we all bared witnessed that there is no God but Allah and some people were hesitant and some instantly believed and that's why we as Muslims feel like we already know everything in a way and Islam feels so close to our hearts as if we already know this path is the truth and the more aware you are of yourself the more you begin to remember things

Yet the sheikh fails to mention that we have no recollection of ourselves when we were in our mothers' wombs or even in early months after birth. Also how can you call the hadith of our beloved prophet pbuh questionable without any justification. The quran and authentic sunnah of rasulallah pbuh is revelation from Allah swt.

I always think about the times in the Quran where it says God will inform us of what we use to do. I think our souls were created all at once and then placed in our bodies. I wonder what we used to do? If our souls have been around before we exist on earth then where are they and what are they doing? Just a thought

The oath with Allah before we came here on earth when we are just souls… is the fitrah(Natural disposition) …. Our natural belief in the Divine.

Great scholar: you may read 'born believers' by the Christian scholar Justin L Barret. You may also find some clips debated by Barret with the renown atheist scholar Richard Dawkins broadcasted by at least BBC Radio 4, Today Programme in couple of years ago. In a nutshell, Barret argued for the concept of الفطر the human predisposition to believe in الله if not interfered by outside factors.

Soul is permanent not created soul is energy

Sheikh just basically condemns all Hadiths explanations of subjects and basically opted for modernist viewpoints… is this not dangerous? Would this not erase the traditional reliance on Hadiths for our everyday lives?

Can someone explain me if Allaah asked our souls" if He is our Lord before we come here, then why on judgement day He is asking our souls "together" with our body if we recognised Him in dunya... ? Only bad souls will be punished...?🤔

Abraham 3:22-26, 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

I think Dr Shabbir came short of the conclusion. He correctly points out that covenant with 'souls' would have no value to hold a person accountable, if that memory is not retained. He also correctly points out that this was the progeny of bani adam not Adam AS himself who made the covenant. Thus, the covenant was made at a later time. Here he loses the direction. If you cross reference this in the Quran, it tells that Yaqub AS on his death bed asked his sons who would they worship and they all made a covenant to worship Allah. They spread the message over subsequent generations across the world. So whoever the message has reached to, would have no excuse on the day of judgement to say that they were unaware of this. The verse has nothing to do with soul or 'rooh'.

Observation About the Quran 7:172 Verse, This clearly signified that Allah is not all knowing. Seems Allah did not know yet the answer if yes or no until human replied. Allah should say I knew before hand that human's answer was yes or no. I do not blame Allah, but the writer of the verse that demean Allah. Explain.

I am not a muslim at all. I am a evangelical born again christian and i am Latter day saint that believes in the oreexistence of souls in heaven. I hVe always believed in the xictrine of preexisyrnce of souls. I had a few seconds of remembering parts of my premittal existence in heaven during my payriarchal blessing i had recieved from the patriarch eho laid hands onme through the soirit of prophecy. I rememmber before i was born on earth everything was totally pit h black yet i knew it was me that existed. I remember sering a beautiful light tunnel that was yellow and orange hearing tye beaitiful voices of spirits singing i remember the familiar feeling and a few seconds of memory

This interpretation of the sura would discount the Islamic apologetic around john17:5&24 (wouldn't it?)which seeks to state that all souls existed (with agency/ able to respond) before the world was in attempt to discount the unique nature the Son of God and the claim for himself being (with agency) before the world was (before creation of Adam) Also this sura is pretty clear (in the English translation presented) thatGods question is presented "when your Lord brought forth from the loins of.." ie at/ or soon after conception. Ie not a fixed time in the last when Adam was created

I honestly have very little memory of what has happened here on earth let alone before here. Do you remember this pact I vaguely do seems unfair

Why calling Allah aza wa jal 'god' instead of Allah??? Is it to please the non-moslims? SubhaanAllah.

Would the soul meant to be for a baby that died at birth come in on the next birth? My mom gave birth to a baby before she had me & he died at birth. Then had me a couple years later. Would the soul meant for my brother be me?

Linguistic approach, Nafs, morphology an etymology : when the N ends a word, it means a full of a kind, when the N starts a word, it means an original source, unique one. The archaic root beeing FS which means Animation, soul or animus in latin. But to be animated, we need a Rooh. Always misleading a tafseer using english concept, not arabic. S

Sure no problem in souls being created before joining with the body. But if it is said that human beings actually existed before human beings actually existed , this is logically impossiblity in and of itself. I think verse 172 is not talking about this impossibility. I'm doubtful about Shabbir linking it with the natural disposition to know Allah, fitra that all people have because the verse is talking about literal gathering to testify. Hadith also reiterates this.. I think more thinking needs to be done to arrive at a rational understanding.

3:40. Who cares what the atheist will say nobody can argue with Allah because Allah is the most just

Watched all of it 10:56

I wonder why Islam kept the idea of the pre-existence of souls when Origen of Alexandria, an early church father was condemned for his insistence that souls exist before someone is conceived. I also feel Surah 7:172 calls atheists like myself insincere when I say I don't believe God exists. Similar to what Paul does in romans 1 when he says that "all are without excuse". I am certainly not aware of the alleged truth of Islam, and I don't think it's fair to hold me responsible if I die an atheist for what some hypothetical soul that existed in another universe said on my behalf when I have no recollection of such events.

There is HADITH that say when we were still a SOUL we were ask If we want to be born and be part of the TEST right ??

اللهم صل على محمد وعلى آله وصحبه أجمعين

I humbly disagree. Visit our Dergah in İstanbul. Come sit at the knees of our Sheikh Ahmet Ozhan Efendi and learn why. Hint:When Prophet Muhammad was asked: "When did you become a Prophet?" he replied; "I was a Prophet when Adam was between the water and the mud -before he came into existence. Thus, we ALL lived a soul life. Now, if you want to learn how is it some of us become believers, non - believers or atheistic, then you'll learn that too. Hint:Kalu Bela has a major role in it. Salaam.

If our soul already existed before we were born in this life, can it also be that we have multiple lives on Earth? I mean reincarnation. Multiple lives to grow toward God. That would explain the diversity of all people. Some people are further along in their development than others.

Are God and Allah the same? How do we draw a conclusion?

Jesus said love one another as I love you . He died for our wrongs and sins thus showing us love . Abortion is killing . Thereby allowing spirit of death to be in our bloodline . Any killing allows spirit of death in our bloodline .

Islam tells nothing to less about the soul. And when it does.. it doesn’t make any sense. Thats why I left Islam and embraced Hinduism 🕉️

Were do muslim follow souls

Wow...I get surprised to the new levels to which misguidance goes, here is a clear cut verse of the Qur'an plus hadiths affirming the clear cut meaning in the verse and then we have this incoherent interpretation which also has no basis in the clear text in the verse itself neither in the hadiths. So that implies you want to interpret Qur'an which fits the point you wana prove (which itself has no logical, moral and religious basis)....I mean, wow!!!

where am i before born?

Mashallah! Are you father and daughter?

jezakallah

what about Alamul arwaah

So are you saying Allah didn't create the body surely.. Oh my

The big bang theory

Why

I think ur contradicting the quran and ur prophet, if quran says in past tense its past tense ,if it says future tense then its future tense, the.moment u contradict u say quran is not the word of allah

Dr shabir understanding is ok.but still it is not correct 100%. My understanding the interpretation is includes both past and future. Both way of understanding correct and is included this verse. My understanding is , soul created in the past before man advent to this world and we all witnessed. Once reached world serially from that point , the soul mixes in this world as rasul sal said every soul by fitrah muslim and once reached world, child parents convert them to Jews christians or majoosi etc. I.e away from monotheism. At one point in the life of that child , during adolescent periods Allah shall.make the mind matured enough to recognize God Almighty's presence and from that point the person is accountable. That's the understanding i have. Dr shabir view is ok but it is recognitikn of God in life on this world at one point due to effect of remembering of a past event of witnessing oneness of God past. Whole quran is reminder of truth. Thats how quran presents itself to us.. quran uses two kind of words when it is talking about purpose of seven skies and earth... Allah uses words like "illa lil haq" and "illa bil haq"... One has meaning created with truth and another haq word meaning is unveiling the truth i.e unveiling or exhibiting the truth of its early created nature. Truth already set in this world when Allah created this world itself whether man is here or not.. shaitan and his comrades trying to corrupt this nature. So Allah created mankind and it's souls with truth one time and each soul's nature too. He is sending each soul serially one by one to this world to unveil the world's early truth in this earth to world of jinn and angels. Thats how my understanding. Otherwise, Quran saying itself as reminder does not make sense. Reminder is something we use as a thing of previous nature and our true nature is getting reminded thru Quran in this world.

Your Prophet claims the earth is flat-----Explain as no one has ever walked off the edge or seen the edge !

👍👍👍

First!! 🐱👍🏿

According to the Bible the soul is not immortal. The Hallmark of all ancient religions is the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. This had led to ancestor worship. This doctrine found its way from Greek mythology into the Christian church as well as Islam. The Bible writers never taught this. The record states in Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Other versions say "being." To have a soul there needs to be a combination of the breath and the body. You take away the breath the soul dies. Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. If the souls are immortal then they are like God because He is immortal. The idea that God created souls before they possess bodies is not Biblical.

LOLOLOLOLOL Ho my God, this guy does not know.

How ignorant on Allah this man

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CAN I MARRY MY FIRST COUSIN BROTHER --