[Werewolf: The Apocalypse] W5 "Review" 

If you enjoy my work on Werewolf, head to www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/curseborne-tabletop-roleplaying-game and click the Notify Me on Launch button. I'd love to reach 600 people on Curseborne - Onyx Path's new urban horror RPG - today.

First, let me say it for W5...I get it, they wanted to get rid of the weird breeding and blood purity and genocide stuff that the Garou have done/are doing. The problem is that W5 went so far out of the way to scrub the game that it got rid of even the good elements, the game couldn't even fully stand by something as simple as "corporations/capitalism is bad" they had to hedge it and be like "well... accumulating capital isn't all bad...maybe some people are nice CEOs"

When I watched the first Paradox video describing W5 and the interview with Justin, I knew immediately it wasn't for me. The second Justin said that he got rid of the metaplot, I was done. I don't like most decisions Justin has made over the years, and after hearing your side of what happened with Onyx Path, Paradox and Renegade, I think I'm done with 5th Edition. I wasn't the biggest fan of the V5 because some of the changes seemed unnecessary to me, but there was still a lot that's great, like the Hunger system; however, W5 and Justin's involvement have just turned me away. I'm happy with the 20th Anniversary systems, and will probably adapt what I want from 5th edition into that system when I get to that point in my Chronicle. Thank you for the review and keeping it classy and honest.

I remember watching your channel as a high school kid, I even got into VtM lore thanks to you. Coming back every now and then is quite refreshing. Haven't been able to do any RPGs recently, owing to work, but refreshing nonetheless.

Wow with that backstory I know where my money won't be going. Looking forward to Curseborne!

W5 for me is a no go. And it all boils down to the removal of kinfolk. Kinfolk to me is so essential to the Werewolf experience that I honestly don't see how it would work without. And it leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I just know that they removed kinfolk and metis because they wanted to remove any associations to beastiality or inbreeding. In a game about corruption?

I didnt like W5 at all and have no plans of ever buying anything from it, which sucks cause WtA is my favorite WoD game. It feels to me like they tried to make a WtA for people who don't like WtA, and based on alot of comments I see about this edition, it seems like it worked at least. And its a shame that we didnt get the version you and the original crew were working on. I remember when they first announced you guys as the writers, I was very excited to see the result.

I was excited for W5 but with the version that we got, you are right, it's not for me. It does have some good ideas but the sum of parts isn't one I like or suits the story I would want to tell within WTA. It's a shame because I love V5, I think it was a great update to the game for modern audiences. I love the Onyx Path sourcebooks for V5 and I was wanting that so when they distanced themselves, that was dissappointing. This may be because as you pointed out, it probably is because I am mired with the lore of WTA and I wanted a continuation of that like they did for W5. That being said...I am highly excited for Curseborne because it certainly has many of the elements of the World of Darkness that I like. I have read about the shapeshifters and can't wait to play or run a Curseborne game and the fact that people are able to be the supernatural they want instead of having to pick only one and play just that.

I've been following tour channel, since i was in highschool. For me, you've been as both a voice of reason and source of inspiration. Having played and run, in 20th and 5th; I feel its a mixed bag. There are definitely things that I like and things i do not in the new edition. The group i run for very much prefers 20th edition, but i prefer the streamlined mechanics in 5th. So, we compromise by smashing them together. Which might not be to everyone's taste but that's the beauty of ttrpgs. Every table, will be different and that's fundamentally a good thing.

Nice to see you agine Matthew, miss you Man! 👊

I was certainly more negative in my discussion but it was coming off hot after running it and all the other emotions. Great review though and keeping to your promise on not being that negative person. Now that Curseborne, that sounds interesting. I look forward to pelting you with questions ;)

I don't have the best impression of w5, but am very interested to see you tackle it.

I know that it isn't, probably, in the plans but I would greatly appreciate your take on clan Ventrue. Because people often describe them as "boring Lasombra" and I can't blame them. Even in Dark Ages they were often presented as second to Lasombra in intrigue and politics and in modern age... Well, this vampire businessman shtick has made them powerfull in-game but failed to make them popular with the players. Too clean, they say. Corporate bores. Sterile. But you surely have greater insights on that topic and I would be delighted to hear them.

So I remember your call of Cthulhu short tale about Germans shelling a random village, and it led to (appropriately) such a rabbit hole that has expanded my knowledge and love of RPG's. Its cool to see you again.

Hmm... Well, this is going to be interesting. Giving the people what they want?

It's sad to hear all of the work you and others did was discarded, and all your efforts were for naught. I suspect I would have enjoyed your version more than what we ended up. After seeing some previews and eventual reviews we decided W5 is just not for our table, and we all opted to skip it.

I don't play, but I love the lore and GG's videos are always a must watch.

I'll be honest, everything I hear about the inner workings of the WoD 5th edition games just makes me not want to have anything to do with Paradox at all. I got V5 at some point... but I have not bought ANYTHING else, and it just doesn't sound like any of it is worth supporting.

The way I see it, Werewolf: the Apocalypse is a metaphor about different groups of leftist extremists, the infighting between themselves and less hyperaggressive left-wing groups, and the legitimate dangers the world as a whole faces. I've been hesitant to read it, myself, but everything I've heard tells me that it got watered down as much as liberal politics is watered-down socialism. I was really looking forward to W5 as exactly what we needed in this new era of rising far-left sentiment. And I can't see what we got as anything other than a disappointment. Like you said, Werewolf has always been woke. But now it doesn't feel woke *enough*. Like you said, not *angry* enough. I don't know what your politics are, but it feels like my political community lost something important, and I don't know if Curseborne is going to fill that niche from what I've read. It's genuinely heartbreaking. Almost Harano-inducing, one might say. That, or Rage-inducing. Been tempted to make my own version of W5 and it sucks that I can't use what you and your team worked on as inspiration. If and when that NDA expires, I'd love to see what y'all were coming up with. Or at least what *you* came up with. In any case, as a fan of Chronicles of Darkness (Fuck Paradox for bonking *that* into oblivion), I'll definitely be checking out Curseborne. The World Below was nifty as hell, and I know you'll knock it out of the park with this one.

After losing the get of fenris and loss of most tribes uniqueness I decided to not purchase anything after 20th anniversary, my groups tried v5 hated it and the Mets plot changes, looking at w5 was the final mail in the coffin for me and my group If 6th edition ignores 5th and goes back to 20th lore we might return Also none of the LARP group has had anything nice to say about the system and they almost always buy everything

Ill say im 28 now i found your channels when i was In high-school over 10 years ago. You are the person that got me into WoD vtm and WtA being my two favorite games. I respect your views on things and agree that wod has always been very progressive. Its part of the ideas of it right resistance agaisnt the power structures. But i dont like w5 and its "moving with the time" i agree that cultures stuff should have changed but i dont like how it was done here. Tho to be fair I guessed wouldnt have liked your guys version either. W5 set is the war is over you have lost and the nation the only uniting thing you have is gone with anyone saying we need to work together as fools. Say what you want about old wod and how hampstead it might have been but i think the older 20th and even the books before that do a better job at handing modern issue then now. As always love your videos mate. Hope your doing well in life.

Thanks for your thoughts, it's great to have a video from the GG. I'm excited to check out Curseborne!

This is how you age gracefully as a gamer.

WoDBROS WE EATING GOOD Feels unreal seeing you active again after a while. Remember scouring all of your vids years ago when I first discovered v20 and the WoD, really helped cement my love for the setting.

You are being very gentle with your words for W5... let's be real it's not all that great compared to W20. And you're right making the Get of fenris not playable was not a great move.

i know it'll be a banger

There is also a second issue that i feel the entire 5th ed line has been dealing with and that is that is trying to serve too many masters. Because v5 branded itself as a continuation and not a reboot...but w5 is just a reboot of the plot and setting as a whole...considering the lore of both games were rather notably intertwined that creates a lot of issues since v5 does do callbacks to things that happened in earlier editions...a lot of which involved werewolves on some levels. So that creates a weird narrative dissonance. Then we have how 5th ed has both tried to be a sort of weird revanchist return to a bygone "good ol days" while at the same time they try to brand themselves around "taking the game into the future/modern day". Those two do not go well together. Lastly I think going away from Gothic Punk as a mood was a mistake. On the one hand...I get it, 90s grimdark is cringe and we can comfortably leave the trenchcoats and katanas behind. BUT, a lot of the core themes of each game and the different splats and ideas in them go back to that idea. The gothic overbearing arcane dark feel of the world combined with a rejection of conventional authority, capitalism, hierarchy, and the political status quo are so baked into WoD that trying to remove that/make it more just general gothyness really doesn't work without completely retooling the games and the settings involved.

I can simply say that W5 thematically lacked teeth after giving it a considerate read. Mechanically it is very approachable, but there was nothing in there for me to build as a more veteran player of the game. I could run it, but I don't see that being necessary. Thanks for the mature take, as always.

Picking up a physical copy as soon as it goes live.

I have not had the chance to read through it yet. I was excited when I heard 5th edition Werewolf was coming out. I liked the idea of the war being over and the Werewolves being on the losing end, but what I heard from others is that that is not that big of a deal in the book, and I lost interest in it.

Thank you for this review and your honesty. I had hoped that W5 would have finally pulled me fully into Werewolf the Apocalypse. I had hoped it would have updated things tastefully, but unfortunately I don’t think the final product of W5 is for me. But that is okay, because I still have Werewolf the Forsaken 2nd Edition that I will continue to use and play. And I am interested to see how Curseborne will do! It may not be the same thing as what I am used to but it deserves a chance to get out into the world. So I am excited to see more of it!

Its a pity for all the hard work you have done. looking forward for curseborne and your kult stuff!

Wonderful and mature review Matthew. While I would love to know which lost tribe the OG writers team were going to reintroduce, I liked and appreciated your vagueness. Happy to see more videos from you and I hope that you’re doing well.

Glad to see OPP returning to Urban Horror! (Though it’s been a short wait) 🤣

As someone who has become enamored with the World of Darkness very late in life, 5E has been a bit of a bumpy road for me. I loved Vampire 5 and Im ok with Hunter 5, but Werewolf 5 is the one book where I have had to implement house rules or changes to make it more fun or accessible at the table. I agree with a lot of what you have to say in terms of how is written, specially the disconnect between its intention vs its nebulous message, and I feel like it leaves a lot of that heavy lifting to the players instead, for better or worse. It certainly feels like a half-measure, at least.

For me, it's always been a hard sell since they just ignored an entire swatch of their playerbase and took a tribe many people loved off of the map, for no good reason in my opinion. They had to make an enemy out of one of the tribes, had to make one fall, and they picked a reason that was already dealt with and discussed a long time ago. Why rehash it? A lot of fanbases hate feeling like they're not even heard yet alone listened to, and that's what happened in regards to the entire Get situation. Otherwise, yeah this feels spot on. It just feels a bit incomplete in places. But at the end of the day? Me and my friends will just continue with our tweaked versions of the original WtA that we obviously can theme around more modern times. It's not for us. But maybe it'll be for someone else, and that's just fine.

As someone who has played a decent bit of V5 and a lot of W20, I was very excited to give W5 a go, and having played a few sessions, it does a good job of sticking to the 5th ed ethos and there's a bunch of cool stuff there, but I was very sad to see the Umbra excluded to this extent and how frenzy prone Crinos form now is. Still had fun tho. P.S. I adore your work, Matthew! Thank you for your contributions to the tabletop world and for teaching me how make a Mage character!

If your worried about uncredited writing from former team members appearing in the books then definitely don't look at the Pack and Moot sections in Shattered Nation cos from my reading theres a hell of a lot in there.

Is the curseborn city in the Underdark? Either way that's awesome you guys are making a drow RPG. That sounds very metal. Can't wait to check out the maps and all the new lore I'm sure you all have come up with. I can't believe no one has ever thought to do an underdark hive city as its own thing for an urban fantasy setting. Genius.

3:55 - I take it that Mr G. Gamer has never been exposed to the "Cyborg Commando" RPG (New Infinities Productions Inc., 1987), then... 😅

Oh hey, Traveller!

Man, I really wish I could read the material you and your cohorts came up with. Werewolf was my first RPG, just as Rage was my first CCG. Alas, W5 just wasn't for me.

I'll still take a look but I will probably stick with the 20th Anniversary. My only beef with the 20th Anniversary ed is the combat system.

I personally look forward to a version of Werewolf where cultural sensitivities are ignored and the focus returns to being good stories instead of avoiding offending the easily upset

Werewolf was one of the games I wanted to love but I never did actually. I had werewolfs as antagonists in my v20 and even my v5 chronicle. I even had a crossover dramatic romance with a sad ending. But whenever I read the book this whole lost war and apocalypse setting was not something I liked. To much sadness, no hope, all is lost. Anyway…. After all theses years I started a C20 chronicle and it turns out…. I love this game.

Lore from a master at shsring lore. Good to hear from you again, mate.

I think that Gangrel and/or Tzimsce make better movie or pop culture ‘werewolves’ than what you get from the werewolf game line.

Keeping it classy. I respect that. I agree on the level that some people with different tastes will love it and that's great. And yes, there are a few good refreshing ideas I liked a lot. But end of the day its WtA in name only and has severely misunderstood almost every aspect of WtA. By fixing what wasn't broken they broke a lot of it (stargazers, fenrir, umbra, galliards, almost every tribe) and didn't actually fix what was (garou born and kinfolks needed a rewrite not getting the boot). And that's not even into all the backstage shenanigans from PDX (like stealing likenesses, not crediting, rebranding the best books to remove OPP from the picture). For me its a hard pass for W5 and PDX in general. There's no coming back from all that. Which is why I'm going all in on Curseborn. Can't wait to dig into it. I hope it does extremely well.

I despise how the Hauglosk and Harano mech work, the regional stereotypes were addressed in Revised and a bit further elaborated in W20, so I can't agree there too. However, I agree that new editions must present changes, it's just that all the changes I can't agree with, not even the intent direction. The Get were more than physical prowess, as any other tribe is more than its stereotype. W5 failed at being WTA, I can't connect it to the game I've grown up with. I have a way worse evaluation about W5 than you though, so it's all good to diverge at that. I'm looking forward to check Curseborne, to see how you guys will make your shapeshifters, as a Green MTG player I'm all about beasts, hunting and savagery.

Welcome back king , glad to see you coming and glad to hear you're working on Curseborne

They got rid of the Fenrir and Jake Skywalker'd King Albrecht. W5 is just bad fanfiction to me

Thank you for this review :) I'm one of the players/Storytellers that are happy that W5 got released and I'm happy it tried to shake things up. Maybe not everything is totally up my allay, but Ilike the core rules, I like the art style and I got it in my national language (which is more convenient than I anticipated it will be). I never cared much for deep lore and was always open for changing whatever I wanted or just writing stuff the way itfitted me. So this new, 5th ed fits me well :) PS: Yeah, Get of Fenris situation should have been handeled better. Hoglosk is an interesting concept, but going full throttle here where everywhere else they decided to play "nice" and "soft" is a wierd choice.

Shattered Nation is a very good supplement. It propulses the CRB to new heights.

My issue with current V5 WoD, is that it lacks Balls. Mathew, and your cohorts at Onyxpath made the good WoD books inspite of Paradox's clumsy handleling, even the parts that annoy me in Continuim I can look past because it's still good.

As a brand new player to WTA, i absolutely loved 5th edition. I've also enjoyed getting into 5th edition VTM, and reading about MTA, CTD, DTF, & WTO, but WTA easily remains my favourite part of WOD. I've also read some of the older WTA books, so i can definitely understand why veteran fans have issues with the changes in the recent edition. Anyway, i respect your review. And maybe someday you might change your mind and give it a second chance.

Werewolf ! The Apocalypse!! (drum roll plz). Yeah, I did a werewolf -vampire cross over game back a few years hence and ended up with one of the werewolves almost perminently attached to my couch. LOL My theory at the time was that we were also doing mushrooms (intermittantly) and he seems to have started to have out of body astral (Umbra, as per the game) experiances in my company in particular. I get the whole astral thing, but eventually I had to explain to him that Vampires do not astrally project (usually) so he would go home. LOL

W5 in Brazil is just a bad game. Try attacking a Pentex employee and getting into conflict with the game system regarding the characters' attachments.

hello i am fairly illiterate when it comes to kickstarter and such projects. when will i be able to purchase a copy of Curseborne? what are the dates for it being released?

I'm currently running a chronicle in W5 and the mechanics work GREAT they are much smoother than previous editions however the old lore did have a lot more teeth.

Just to say W5 isn’t only for new players. Been playing WoD since the 90s and W5 is my favorite iteration of Werewolf the Apocalypse by far ;)

I'm playing in a W5 game currently. I'm having alright fun with the game. I've started playing the WoD when Revised Edition came out, so that's about 24 years now, but never ever read a single WtA book before W5. I am completely biased against Werewolf. It's mostly the Conan the Barbarian art combined with this whole Gaia/captain planet nonsense that they had going that turns me right off. W5 didn't change my mind... It just confused me. I don't really understand what it's trying to do for it's setting. Maybe it's because I didn't have the old stuff as a primer, but it seems to be hell bent of having you be angry over the death of Gaia, but the damage is already done, so all your rage is futile no matter what? If I where a werewolf I'd fuck off to the Bahama's and wait for the whole thing to fall apart. I don't get the motivation... What are we trying to accomplish here? I have since gotten the W20 + Changing breeds books to explore deeper, and it honestly didn't help much. These Garou folks are just religious fundamentalists, aren't they? Some weird nature adoring death cult? I did like some of the Changing breeds, well written book by the way, really enjoyed it! I like the Ananasi who seem to have a bit more of a constructive "if the Wyld/Weaver/Wyrm don't do their job, we'll have to do it for them" attitude. Still religious fundamentalists I guess. Their Goddess seems to be embodied and located somewhere where they can talk to her. So, I guess at that point she's more your boss then your Goddess? Not a lot of faith required if you get angry calls for missing last Friday's shift! I also appreciate the Corax who just seem to be nosy bastards, which I like. Really, that's all that's needed! They are a breath of fresh air compared with all those other try hard breeds and their bells and whistles. They can turn into birds and are nosy bastards. Simple, efficient, I dig. All in all, not really going to be my splat I'm afraid, no matter what edition. But, I gave it a try at least? Really looking forward to Curseborne! Read the ashcan, and I like the look of it. Especially if it's going to get the same sort of development as Scion and Trinity has gotten. Think there could be a cool world to build with what I seen so far.

They could have developed the Get of Fenris's devolution in a much more interesting way. The Get become increasingly radicalized due to their failure to save Gaia and fascist elements start working towards taking over the tribe, you'd have Get who left the tribe and joined with others and the Garou Nation being split on how to deal with the rest. The Bone Gnawers and Black Furies would see them as just as bad as the Wyrm but others like the Silver Fangs or Shadow Lords would try and use them as cannon fodder against their enemies while trying to preserve "unity at all costs." We could have stories of rogue Get working to save the tribe from it's downward spiral and showcase the faults of trying to appease this type of rhetoric. It may seem fine to use them at first when they're fighting the Wyrm but what are you going to do when they turn their rage against the Silent Strider's kinfolk?

So, if you worked on w5, I can blame you for the Fianna being removed and direct my ire towards you then.

I like original WW and WW20th the best but I would still play WW5. I think you can still work the cultural racism and caricatures out of WW20 by adapting some of the WW5 concepts. I would love to play out the fall of the Get of Fenris as a chronicle with a Get of Fenris PC. What a great Rollercoaster of Drama, Horror and Emotional angst that would be!

yep mostly agree, honestly that what really make the "_5" books so frustrating to me is that their core deign is just made for a different audience, like if they were just BAD i could at least complaint about it Plus there's the whole capitalism BS aspect of it, but until the technological singularity free/destroy us that's not changing. Tho I guess that's the reason why I do find myself just enjoying their Licensees' work far more than the TTRPG, they at least are allowed to bring some of the Metaplot/legacy content back in. (That and the VtM games focus more on managing your hunger than the beast, like the hunger system isn't bad but in play it feels like you're a werewolf keeping your rage in check instead of a vampire who needs blood to survive.)

The difference between "Woke" then and now, is that the old school writers of World of Darkness evoked change by being edgy af and by rubbing your nose in the filth, screaming "Don't run home to mama" at you. While modern writers approach the same subjects with kids gloves and inclusive language. I have no doubt that the politics of writers then and now are largely the same and that they are both "woke" in that sense. But the approach to making change has changed. And in my opinion not for the better. They have removed the edge or the sting of the material. The danger. It stopped being "cool". Remember the outrageousness of Black Dog? As a case and point, let's look at Get of Fenris. In the old books it is obvious that this clan is coming very close to dangerous themes. Are the Get actually Nazi adjacent? The players got to play around with these ideas, with the understanding that it was a bad thing. But that's how you get to understand these things, by inhabiting them. A monster i am lest a monster I become and all that. Removing these themes from the setting as being playable in the name of being politically correct is a disservice to modern players, who only get to play the safe stuff. To be perfectly honest, the fact that Mark wrote Vampire with a gender neutral "her" instead of "him" has done more for my feministic worldview than any modern writing has accomplished. Always woke, yes, but woke has changed.

i like some of the ambiguity especially about the tribes like the hart wardens, could be left or right leaning people who just want you to get off their lawn. Didnt really see the game as woke, more inclusive to different kinds of people which share the goal of destroying those to threaten the natural ecosystem regardless of political leanings. Also like how its more about the real world and not as much about the umbra, just keeps things more grounded but that's just my preference. Sad to hear they screwed you over in some way though, hope you rise stronger than before and as always a nice video.

I couldn't stand any previous WtA edition, the more I researched it the more I disliked it. W5 is the first that got me interested and I really want to play.

So instead of eco-terrorists fighting Cthulhu you now fight Fascists? Gonna pass on that one.