In addition to superior writing and main players, West Wing also had excellent bit actors. I am a school bus driver also. I could feel this lady's pain if anything ever happened to one of my "little darlings".
I thoroughly appreciate your desire to help people and the sacrifice of your time you're willing to give to others in their time of need. God bless you and I hope you have a long and fruitful life.
Thank you, Mr. Espenlaub, my bus driver from Newburgh Elementary to Castle High School from 1971 thru 74. Had a car and license my senior year so no bus rides. His bus was #51 or #57. Gee, that was only 48 years ago....doesn't it go by in a flash. RIP Mr. Espenlaub. Thanks for all the safe rides to and from school. ✌️😉
Sometimes, he is real enough to me. I just have to imagine it is him in the White House, and I can inspire myself to do more, do better. Use whatever works for you.
Hits closer to home when you know that Sorkin wrote Bartlet and McAvoy largely in the influence of his own father, who he never felt he made very proud.
Some of the most powerful moments in TWW have come when we are reminded that there is a real world out there, beyond the witty banter and philosophical arguments and political gamesmanship.
Funny that you say that in response to a woman proposing the problem of evil. Which is definitely a philosophical tool to prove that an all good, all powerful god does not exist.
Now if we could get the real politicians would remember that there is a real world out there, beyond the petty bickering, political backstabbing, and bullshit.
@@philip8551 I wouldn't say that proves god isn't "all good, all powerful". It proves he isn't going to influence events. However, defining "good" as not allowing anything bad to happen to good people is juvenile.
@@Michael-dy2lb you're twisting what I said. What I said was that an all powerful all good god doesn't exist as demonstrated by the problem of evil. Throw whatever sophistry you want onto it it doesn't change anything.
@@philip8551 You don't get to define what it means to be "good". Would a god be "all good" if he just forced everyone to be good, no free will. That's where evil comes from. I'm not religious, but you don't have to be religious to realize that evil comes from free will, just as good does.
The eternal question which can never be answered - at least in this world. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, then are dreamt of in your philosophy" .
@Patrick Hudson I'd just reply with "You say there is no scientific explanation, I respond that you aren't even looking." But then again, nobody is expecting you to actually answer.
@Patrick Hudson It is on the accuser to create proof, not the other way around. You can't say there is a God, prove me wrong. You have to prove there is. By that logic I would be able to say you killed someone when you were a kid, prove you didn't. Prove you have never killed anyone ever and if you can't that I can call you a murderer.
the Grand Canyon between this and reality is positively painful. We'd all work for this kind of government wouldn't we? Sacrifice our time and effort to make the world a greater place to live if we were appreciated, shown on TV as humanitarians and helpful altruists. Have some well meaning, intelligent, empathetic, top level shot caller bend down and bestow upon us the smile of the owner, the ruler, the king in all his glory. Of course we'd give up our easy chair, our pipe and slippers to scrub dishes for this guy.
I think that gap isn't as big as you think. Most of our presidents, of both parties, have been men of incredible compassion. They live their lives under constant attack. People turn them into caricatures, exaggerating their perceived faults and downplaying their humanity. We are so cynical we treat every act as theater but no man can truly know what's in another's heart. I'm sure if this moment had been witnessed by a member of the opposition it would be characterized as currying favor or performance for appearances and we would've believed it, becoming complicit in the subtle character assination and reducing the chances of a president ever showing this side of themselves again. All this while carrying the burden of curing all of our ills, keeping us safe and maintaining his dignity all while being totally sleep deprived and under incredible stress.
@@marcopl17 Liking your comment, which I did, seems such a silly, empty gesture compared with your comment. So often, I find myself saddened to read comments that the writers surely thought brilliant and I find incomprehensible. Thank you for your eloquence. 🌌🌅
I would tell her theologians and philosophers have struggled with this question for thousands of years. But if there’s one response that has given me satisfaction, it was “The Grand Inquisitor”, a “poem” (not in any of the traditional senses) contained in Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s novel “The Brothers Karamazov”. I remember reading it and being humbled/silenced by how intense the approach was, not sparing any discomfort, addressing everything head-on. Interestingly enough, Sheen said that Terrence Malick helped restore his faith by recommending this book to him. So if you’ve got the patience, find yourself a copy.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read about "The Grand Inquisitor", the *_only_* aspect of the Problem of Evil that it addresses is that god would allows humans to do evil because he values freedom so much. There is no "explanation" for why such a god would allow suffering caused by natural catastrophes like the hurricane here. (..and that's not even getting into how that god would obviously value for example the "freedom" of a r*pist over the freedom of the r*pist's victim - _one_ of the two will be violated in any case, that god chooses to allow the r*pist to violate the victim's freedom, so that god vlues the r*pist's freedom more than the victim's. But that's beside the point here, I just wanted to point out that even *_that_* approach falls apart when you actually think it through)
I decided years ago to not even dignify religious "debates" in the comment sections, especially if it's in a provocative tone like this to just say "Your god is morally repugnant for allowing evil in any way"... but when you say "read about", I'd advise you to read it for yourself first before you try to provoke religious arguments any chance you can get. There are far better ways to engage ideas than this.@@Wolf-ln1ml
@@Wolf-ln1mlAll of humanity has free will. Every murder, every rape, every genocide, its all avoidable. But we don't live in a bubble. We can impact each other because human connection and the wider world is all interconnected. Our free will and agency is simply how we choose to respond and impact the wider world. And natural disasters are natural. Why do we age? Why do we feel sadness? Why are consent and pain even concepts if rape and abuse and loss and depression make us less happy? Its because it just happens to be this way. Organisms could have been wired differently, we could have become more fulfilled and pleasured and physically healthy by self-inflicting trauma. We could purposefully get cancer to grow wings. We could use time manipulation to minmax our choices. Any reality could have been possible but it just so happens this is the one we were handed and we are free agents able to change the end result.
@@PhoenixFires _"And natural disasters are natural."_ Did this god have the option to create this world without those disasters? If it did, and still chose to create it _with_ them, there are only two options - either the disasters are somehow necessary, or it's unnecessary suffering, in which case that god was evil when it set things up. If the disasters _are_ necessary for whatever reason, that god again isn't all-powerful since it was limited in it's options. So, which is it? Is this god not all-powerful, or is it evil?
@@avae5343 if you're talking about human free will, that wouldn't matter for a natural disaster, but if you're talking about god's free will that's worse. Are you implying the big G choose to do nothing or even chooses to cause cancer in children, diseases that ravage countries, or even mental instability that drives humans to kill for fun? god can be all-loving in theory... but there's no way he can be all-loving and all-powerful.
@@avae5343 you're bringing it back to man, my point is about things we have no control of like natural disasters, diseases, and cancer. Things that can only be connected to god.
@@avae5343 I agree? but that's not what not I'm talking about. are people staving? yes. could we as a people do something about it? yes. is life flawed? of course. but my point is related to the first comment about god, not humans. my point is about how god can either be all-loving (and can't do anything to help) or all-powerful (and chooses to do nothing). my point has nothing to do with luck or human nature, and 100% about things outside of our control and in gods. What point are you trying to make? because I don't see it in relation to the argument I'm making
@@avae5343 the flaw with your something cannot come from nothing argument is that some of that something is awful and not something we made with our own evil, like slavery... which is ok in the bible... but back on point, the something from nothing goes even darker when you think about it, which means the creator green-lit monstrosities like the loa loa, look that up and tell me we have a loving god. I don't have a problem with the idea of a great power, it might have even kickstarted life, but the idea that an all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful force like in the Quran and Bible is out there and forced or even allowed these things to happen... Logic is the first step, and this logic implies an amount of inherent cruelty to be almost mindboggling.
@@avae5343 that's fair, I'm just bugged by the "its gods will" argument or other blind beliefs, so many people use that as an excuse to not question and try and change things. I see people arguing against things we have known for thousands of years like flat earthers and it boggles my mind.
George Carlin had some good ideas about that topic. "If a god is willing to prevent evil, but not able, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able, but not willing, then he must be malevolent. If he is neither able or willing then why call him a god? - Epicurus
I ask myself the same thing when I lost my brother when he was sick watching him slip away I hated God he was my heart he was only 17 years old when he passed this was 28 years ago but I remember it like it was yesterday people who lose there children especially when you ask yourself why God why would you take my baby from me it's hard to have faith when you lose someone..
My friend I understand you completely. September 2004 was the worst period of my life when one morning police came to our house and told us my Dad died of a car accident in Arizona. A 9yr. old boy stood in front of the church looking at that coffin and said "I'll make it up to you" but immediately after the funeral I asked the same thing. How could God be just and loving when he allows good people to die? 16 years later I still have the same question. It may be hard to go through, your faith may be in question but know this, God or whatever it is one person believes in, life works in mysterious ways. Believer or not, life is mysterious, and we must always be prepared for anything it throws at us.
I believe she was. If I remember correctly, I think she lectured him after this because the country was looking for leadership and he was instead feeling guilty over what happened with Zoe...I think. I don't watch past season 4 often.
It was CJ's idea that the president go, Leo didnt want him to, they were supposed to be there for only a few hours, and the President upon seeing the scale of the devastation decided to stay the night and go to the service in the morning, Leo was pissed and was giving CJ massive grief about how long it was taking.
" Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus Christ) also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. " Hebrews 2:14 KJV
Ages old contradiction. If god is . if it is all powerful. If it is all good, whence cometh evil? Is god unwilling to stop it? Then it is not good. Is it unable? Thence why call it god? Theologians and philopshoper's have struggled over the problem for thousands of years.
I don’t understand the contradiction. Almost all evil comes from choices humans make. God may be all powerful, but he has given us the capacity to make choices for ourselves. He has given us guidance and we chose to what extent we follow his commandments. If we do not or cannot chose, then we become puppets of God, and our faith, hopes and our acts become meaningless.
But if he is really all powerful, all knowing, all good - why did he create a world where people choose to do such horrible things? "Free will" is not a good enough answer for me. So, he is either not all powerful, not all knowing, not all good, or doesn't exist at all - never did.
@@lesliebehringer2372 I think humans are very simplistic about God. We really don’t understand Him at all, and have created Him in the image we want him to be. My own view is he caused the conditions (the Big Bang so to speak) that created our universe. Then He let the universe get on with evolving of its own accord based on the laws of physics and ultimately the other sciences. Likewise he did not create us, but we evolved. My own view is as sentient life developed on this planet at least, He intervened, but much more like a parent with children. He does not control us, but gives us guidance. Initially, in the early stages of humanity it was much more like a parent with do’s and don’ts, but as humanity’s moral understanding developed it has become much more like guidance rather than rules, such as “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, which is almost universal more across many cultures. So that is why you cannot blame God for what we do to another- because his action was basically to cause the universe. It is interesting because the argument about free will is much more nuanced than a lot of people think. There is a strong philosophical argument that everything in the universe, including our actions, is predetermined by the laws of the universe. Here is a thought about intervening to prevent evil. If you could have prevented Hitler being born would you do so? I wouldn’t because what may have happened without WWII may have been more catastrophic than what we experienced. One of the major reasons to date that nuclear weapons have not been used in warfare is we saw what 2 small bombs did in 1945. We know what will happen if any major powers use them again. Before the war scientists already were working on the technology that created the atomic bomb. It is quite possible that if WWII had not happened, the bombs would have developed and used wiping out humanity and much of life on Earth. Ben Elton wrote a book called Time and Time again on the theme of preventing a catastrophic event in history. It is well worth the read. Sorry this is so long.
I can see Obama, Bush Jr. and Sr., and Clinton showing empathy in this scene as well as rolling their sleeves up and scouring some pans. I just don't see Trump doing any of that. My thought has nothing to do with political ideology. I just don't see him doing it.
@Leo Peridot its not only that, he just does not care about people unless they help him in some way. Plus he has the compasion of a Nazi leader, the intelligence of a elementary school dropout, the maturity of a kindergartener, and the patience of Stalin. He is the worst President ever simply because he will never admit he is wrong, about anything ever. HE promises a lot,but what deliverers is crap.
Take this with a grain of polling salt. A poll was conducted in 2016 when Drumpf and Hillary were running. The poll asked who would you prefer as president, Fat Donnie, Hillary or Jed Bartlett. Jed Bartlett won with 69%. It might be closer to 80% today.
Com’on, Drop the emotion al crap and tell me how bad he is. I mean, I hate the dude because of his toxicity. But he isn’t as bad as you make him to be. Give me one thing that is soooo. As it destroyed the Country? I bet you can’t.
Jesus christ I was tv to escape reality and asshats like you have to bring it up. Fuck off already. No body cares who your president is at the time of watching this clip.
If I can take a shot at the eternal question of why bad things happen to good people. Not one innocent is ever lost. The innocent we lose are born of humans but are ethereal creatures that manifest themselves as human and only emulate suffering so that God can remind us to be compassionate and empathetic toward one another. I don't believe this, but if true, it works.
@@LazloMortimer Bartlett was a lousy Catholic who violated the tenets of his faith whenever they interfered with his political career. He was a terrible example of a Catholic in public service.
@@Mark-ke1rj Some people think everything is simple and black-and-white. Others of us live in the REAL WORLD, including being Christian enough to NOT snottily judge others.
I think you mean "religion"... And religion deserves it. It's nothing more than a collection of Bronze-age myths designed for one peoples to control others. There have been over 3,500 deities manufactured by men in all of recorded human history. None of them are real.
Is it really religion bashing when a common counterpoint against God's benevolence or omnipotence comes up: that you can't have God be both all-loving and all-powerful if he lets misery and pain happen every day, especially to helpless children? Is it religion bashing to doubt?
This one scene shows someone having a crisis of faith but President Bartlett is a sincerely faithful Catholic who had intended to be a priest before he met his wife. Their are plenty of scenes where he quotes scripture, talks to religious leaders, attends mass, has his confession heard, etc.
God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform. The best of Us he takes early, the rest of Us he leaves here a little longer. I've been here 63 years, but I know that one day he will eventually call Me to be with him. My only hope is that by then, I am worthy.
Yep let's go ahead and blame God we won't blame people who dont want to accept that nature has its way of doing things. We won't accept it with our lives comes death and we sit there and we b**** and moan at the way things are I know at the same voice that we used to praise God we curse our fellow man. I don't know if Sorkin wrote this but it's one thing about West Wing that used to just piss me off there are multiple instances where instead of trying to understand how life is we just want to blame God. That's probably what led to the one rant the president walking into a church telling God how righteous and good he was and how bad God was it's just a f***** up concept sorry just my point of view
But it is very human. Jed could obviously delve into the theology and philosophy of such questions, but he knew that wasn't the time or place for that. Instead, he joined in her grief.
I really enjoy this series...great acting, writing.....but it is getting nauseating reading the comments......politics...regardless of who is sitting in office......has nothing to do with a TV show.......trying to compare them....is ignorant.
the inherent failure of transactional "faith", of this effort to magically manipulate or bribe God thru acts... you'd all be so much happier if you admitted that the world is made of random challenge and it's all down to us... and God? watches in hope and pride and sympathy, to see what magnificence we manage to make of it all.
@@Mantengan myself, I think of his (its?) role as less of a over-compensating parent who constantly checks in and sends care packages and calls four times a day and chases the bullies off, and jumps in the pool to rescue you in front of yer whole swim team omg... and more of a sergeant who has trained you up and equipped you, and now you've just dropped out of a figurative helicopter with minimal kit to survive for...well, up to about 80 years. The sergeant is excited and interested, but The Whole Point is how we make out on our own, dealing with infant mortality, and tsunamis and all the rest...
@@bmolitor615 I'm glad that you have something to comfort you, in those dark times. But the rest of us need something that can be counted on. Both of the examples you gave are of total failures. The parent in your example does not raise a child, they are growing a bonsai tree. Something that should grow strong and tall, but is crippled from over attention. On the other hand, a good drill sergeant actually trains their SOLDIERS how to survive BEFORE dropping them into the wild. Your god is supposedly a father, and if so, he went to the 711 for cigarettes years ago. I say this not to denigrate your faith, but to show the other side of your argument.
@@Mantengan I'd say my creed/mythos is less faith-based and more observation-based - e.g. the transactional aspect of prayer does not work (otherwise we'd have patented it and be awash in white ponies or whathaveyou - that's a metaphor) but the doxological and thanksgiving components DO, so I accept those. And I would say in my mythos of the "80-year final training exercise", if it were all certain, if we knew we could just call home at the first bump and have an all-powerful daddy swoop in and fetch us home, that's not a real test, there's little accomplishment in that. We must KNOW we are on our own for it to be a real test, that's an essential part of it. Daddy's not gone for cigarettes; rather, whatever creative spirit may have engendered us now watches - as I said - in pride and hope and sympathy. It's a mythos/hypothesis that attempts to encompass all observations, including the absent God that you note, but interpret differently.
@@steves2694 Kinda throws doubt over his status as a god if he could only protect 26 out of 30 though, doesn't it? It's the old paradox that, from the human perspective at least, God can't be both all powerful and all good. And I don't mean to attack anyone's faith by saying that, I'm just trying to show how difficult it is for people to have faith in these kind of moments.
@@Thumbhit1 Yeah, I agree with you (except for the "shouldn't" bit). But I know others do believe that there is a God, including both characters portrayed in this clip from the West Wing. So it's from that perspective that I'm trying to address the question raised in the clip because while you and I might disagree with the basis of that point of view, it is how many people view the world so out of respect I tried to address the issue from something closer to their perspective than my own.
@Patrick Hudson It wants your undieing devotion otherwise you go to hell. Sounds like a protection racket to me, letting innocent suffer and die is wrong so your deity is letting / making wrong happen.
@Patrick Hudson So you quote your version of a made up fantasy. You can deny and change the story all you like. You can not prove with out a shadow of a doubt there is a god . Your bible states the rules.
@Patrick Hudson You religious types push your beliefs on people, you guilt people . And as we can see in your response passive aggressive attack. Explain the cavendish experiment. You can measure gravity. You can't measure god. Prove there is a hell. Prove there is a heaven. If you are all superior prove god. You seem to be all knowledgable. Prove without a doubt or question it exists. You can't do it, and don't try to deflect. Admit it.
News flash, there is no god. If we praise a fictional being for all the "good" things that happen then who do we hold accountable for all the bad things that he allegedly LETS happen? Kids in sex slave rings, all the starving people around the world, homeless dying everyday to overexposure, increasingly hostile weather and yes kids killed in an accident on a school bus. “Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?” Since well before Hume’s time, the problem has been the basis of a positive argument for atheism: If God exists, then he is omnipotent and perfectly good; a perfectly good being would eliminate evil as far as it could; there is no limit to what an omnipotent being can do; therefore, if God exists, there would be no evil in the world; there is evil in the world; therefore, God does not exist.
Be objective. God did kill countless first-born on Passover night in Egypt remember, many would have never even met an Israelite, but God rewarded them with something terrible.
A late response, but an Honest one. Are you out of your Mind? The Fallen One punishes the Evil that Mortal Man commit. Commit in the Name of your One True God. Shame on you. Shame!
If God is all powerful like people are told, then he is more powerful than the devil and could prevent such things. Saying God is all good and Satan is all bad is a cop out of an explanation.
God is love. The god of this system is Satan! Satan has no love for humans, never has never will, hell is here on earth! When you die you have paid for your sins, but while you live in this system Satan is in charge! You can thank Adam and Eve for that!
Yokai she asked What type of god would do such a thing, I just answered her from the Bible! And your best is grow up! In real life who comforted her and who did nothing?
@@michaelvoelkl225 In real life, she's an actress. If you mean "who" comforts people with experiences like that in real life, the answer is lots of things, one of which may be religion. That doesn't mean god, Satan or any of that mythological nonsense is real, just because it exists in a book and in your head.
Yokai your 1/2 right, but you yourself posed that same question! Whether you believe in their being a god or the things just happen theory, either way you are expressing faith. Either faith in god, or faith in nothing! Faith in nothing is just what Satan wants. Being the father of the lie, to put faith in the lie or Satan is satanic and unfortunately way too many people walk that path and express no hope for tomorrow. But there are still a few of us that see past the lie, study and meditate daily on what we have read and try to live by the Bible’s righteous standards. We have hope for the future and a guarantee to that future thru the death of the one chosen to be the signature to that guaranteed future! Yes we have that hope which god has given to his people by way of the death of the Christ!
@@michaelvoelkl225 You're using a false equivalency: your faith in ancient mythology is not the same thing as my certainty that what we can see around is real. And there is no "things just happen theory." Your not being able to understand science or natural history does not mean anything. Stop embarrassing yourself by spouting gibberish about devils, dungeons and dragons and go and read a non-fiction book.
