What’s missing from modern guitar tone 

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God bless it it’s refreshing to hear someone say all this

100% agreed. Nevermore has some amazing tones on their albums where you really feel the low end of the chugs in comparison to open notes.

Guitar tunig has a big impact on this. Being above the B or C tuning (or even higher) makes the sound more tight and that helps control the low end more easily, so you won't have to put a filter on 80 or 100 hz...same thing for the string gauge, i tend to prefer bigger sets like 0.12 on a C# tuning. That helps to get a brighter sound. For instance i mixed the latest album of my band which is a death/thrash/black metal band called Barbarossa (the album is The Great Carnage) and we were tuning in C#. Amp was a Victory Kraken and cab was a Marshall with greenbacks. My filter was at like 60-70hz just to make room for the bass and kick...and we got a tone which is tight and aggressive as very few others. Don't be shy and boost that high and low end, there's so much energy and excitement you're missing you'd be surprised.

that slight scoop on rhythm guitar tone really helps with lead guitar parts, bass tone, and obviously, the part that should shine in the first place, Vocals.

Agreed. Guitar forums started giving mids mids mids advice and this went hand in hand with the general public losing interest in modern metal. Not enough people are pumping the breaks on the forum advice not panning out (sic) long term.

100% agree with the mids thing, as well as people cutting all the lows and highs and then asking how to "widen" the guitars! :D

he's not wrong, but its confusing because on the stl tonality middleton plugin every single preset has a high pass at 88-100hz and low pass from 9500-12k.

I agree. I've been following this sorta advice, not really knowing what I was doing. It always felt 'wrong', like I was carving out some important energy. Fuck it. I'm doing it all scooped now, I don't give a shit. If it sounds good, IT IS GOOD.

slightly scooping mids is underrated.

I agree with most of what you say, but it's good to see more mids in guitar tones than the old hyper scooped mushy sounds of the old school. What I find missing from modern mixes is the lack of realistic panning and the misconception of the LCR style of panning, the Left - Center - Right school. Take a listen to any Mutt Lange mix to see that he used the entire stereo spectrum for his mixes, with layers of guitar tones placed appropriately across the spectrum to provide the most dramatic effect to the listener. This of course is just my opinion, feel free to disregard.

I think the reason modern metal guitars have so much midrange, is because modern guitars are typically close-miked, and when you close-mic a speaker, the midrange is very weird and dominated by either fizz or stuffy low end. It's impossible to get it to sound like in the room, so the only solution is to turn up the midrange to get closer to the room sound, but although the resulting midrange fills out the sound, it also sounds weird, because it is exaggerated. My go-to reference for a great midrange is Iron Maiden's Piece of Mind album, but that album was recorded with room mics and probably also close mics blended in, and according to interviews with the band from that era, the room sound was very important for the result on the album. With most modern metal relying on close-miking, I don't see a way to ever get a realistic tone that is just right and natural.

What a great chat! Everything he said is on point, this is exactly what I think misses from modern tones. I love mixes that aren’t perfect, it makes them special.

Josh knows his shit. All the things he said about tuning, ale totslly correct.

guitar tone you can hear at 10:13

Part of the problem, in my opinion, is the super low tuned guitars. A simple D standard tone fits so well in the mix with a mild mid scoop.

Some really great points here, I never really thought about how the 100 HZ region was affecting the mud in mix tonally. This just opened my perspective on how to approach Eqing the low end of my guitar tones.

Tonal preferences will come and go as with music styles. I miss mixes where the guitar has detail, growl and real guts in the mid detail. There's a lot of new wave/old school thrash bands who just nail the sense of detail in the guitar tones, rather than just being everything and all. It provides space for the rest of the mix to exist. Sure, it can get dialled out but at least it exists in the first place to BE dialled out. One tone that is super underrated in terms of grease, growl and disgusting dirty mid detail was Mick Mars' earlier 80s tones. Some of those were just filthy, and it was simply a José modded Marshall. Used well, classic amps still deliver the guts and grease that can be supplemented with other reamped tones.

I've been leaving more low end in my guitars and it's nice to feel validated

Yes! I love lots of low end and highs on the guitars. The mids more flat / slightly scooped sounds better too and sits better in a mix. Also if you remove too much lows and highs the mix sounds narrower too.

To me the issue is not the mix but the production. Modern metal often gets produced like pop - thinking in beats instead of songs. So when it comes to mixing, the guitar tone needs to be as clean as possible. Thus all that nice character gets lost. Some recent albums sound to me like AI has generated them...

Tastefully scooped 90's metal tones that sound unique, slightly raw and have personality to them will ALWAYS beat a modern mid heavy and overly processed tone IMO

A couple of very shallow (-2 dB max) cuts in the 300-1200Hz range will completely change the way a high gain guitar sounds in a mix. Being afraid of touching the mids made my guitars sound small and box-y for years, good on Josh for criticizing the "DONT TAKE AWAY THE MIDS" crowd.

speaking of high pass filter, you can alternatively do something like resonant high pass so that you get the low end of the guitars while cutting frequencies that can clash with kick and bass, so you can have something like low shelf without actually putting one.

What's missing is pick attack, which comes through when pickups are sending the actual sound of strings being played to an amp. Listen to an older metal album with real guitar amps. There's this metallic "Kh" sound of the pick attack that gives the guitar all of it's bite.

He is absolutely right, why hi-pass your guitars to the point where the only lows that are left are the muddy frequencies 150Hz and up?

With a tight performance you can get away with any guitar tone mostly.TOTM and Butchered at B are milestones in tone for me, as long as you keep the parts interesting you can get away if not overdone IMO.

I used to play in the C-D# range, with occasional B, and had a strong distaste for tunings lower than that. Then, one day, I got a new retro guitar and arbitrarily tuned it to what sounded best for that particular guitar, with 10-52 strings. The tuning turned out to be G#, which I found out only after writing and recording a bunch of riffs with. When people hear the riffs either on the record or when I play them, I often get asked about the tuning, and when they hear me say it's G#, people go: "What-what-what tuning you said this is in? It sounds like C." Because everything is about riffs meeting the sound. Some riffs sound massive in D, some riffs don't sound heavy despite being in E, a full octave lower than the standard, precisely because of that tuning. The same riff might sound heavier and heavier, the higher the tuning goes from that low E. As for the low frequencies absent in modern metal recordings, yes, that's one of the biggest things I dislike. People got told to cut off everything below 100 hertz, and just did that because a random voice on RU-vid who mixed zero of their favourite records said so. Overall, I have a trouble time listening to modern metal precisely because most of it sounds like garbage. It tries to be aggressive, but achieves exactly the opposite result. All these brutal metal bands sound weaker and lighter than something like Shihad's FVEY, which is barely metal at all.

I high-pass guitars at 80 Hz max, sometimes just as low as 60 Hz. I’ve also never listened to that “more mids!” advice, since I never liked the sound. My default rhythm sound coming from the amp is therefore still scooped, and then I just boost with the EQ in the DAW specifically in those mid-frequencies where I cut the vocals: Which is between 1000 and 1200 Hz, where vocals have those nasal frequencies that you want to get rid of anyway - therefore leaving space for the guitars to slip into.

Yeah, scoop the fucking mids people. My favorite are the deniers who boost lows and highs and play through a Recto cab. 🤣 People have shit tone these days because they're too busy doing what people tell them to do instead of what sounds good. Also C# best tuning.

I think it's really fun as a home studio musician to experiment with different ways of mixing. Personally don't think there is a right or wrong way to mix guitars, it's more based on the listener type that feeling your going for. Also depends how much you love bass guitar in your mix. If you take away just alittle low end on your guitars the guitar tone will remain very thick though the bass guitar will get pushed back in the mix. I like to find the a balance to where the guitar and bass guitar have a perfect marriage where they both sound great and both have a place in the mix, though that's just me. Then there's other times where I'm like "fuck the bass" lol

Guitar tones are getting real weak. Stop hi passing at 100 hz plus, and low passing at 8k. Miss the aggression.

Can't agree more. Alot of tones are so quacky now. I miss a bit of that shitty, guitar center, no mids tone lol.

Yes! I also feel that the mids thing went too far the other way. Riffs should be able to stand on their own, without resorting to lo-fi it everytime.

Yeah man there has been alot of over producing going on. Keep some rawness in the mix .

I'm not very experienced in mixing but... I just love how low mids sound,200-250 on guitars, 430-460 on the mixbus,not much , just a tiny bit, like 1-1,5 DB, maybe is just personal taste but I find it very pleasing

Love hearing someone else share this point of view. Guitar tones in modern times make me yawn. Also really cool to hear a shout out to Chris Clancy. He mixed and mastered my EP and man did he do magic, especially considering that the raw takes I gave him were low budget recordings done in my bedroom.

I needed to hear this.

So many albums these days in extreme metal, I end up not liking because the guitar tone is too thin, "round" and anemic... no grit or fuzz, no sizzle.

Where's the full interview?

Yeah, I have a 7 string, I take it down to drop A or drop G as needed, but... I gotta be real, my HSS Strat in E standard through drop C is my happy place. It sounds absolutely huge and cutting, as opposed to just low. And, really..... it's just so much less work. Keeping the low tunings clear and articulate is hell.

i've been playing metal for more than 30 years, and recording and producing! I agree with all said, but I don't see much people talking about how much low end guitarist remove before hitting distortion with amps or plugins! Todays tones are very tight, so tight that fundamental notes not there and you barely can understand what note they are playing! That happens even more on extreme down tunning guitars. Alternative bands using fuzz always seem to have the biggest and heavier guitar tones!

Here's a pro tip from a guy who produces in Brazil and have seen a lot of crazy low budget instruments: ALWAYS ask the tuning and the type of guitar/bass they intend to use for tracking. low tune + low/mid range instruments = a 50-50 chance to get f'd at the mixing stage. Educate yourself with some gandalf guitar tech voodo magic like fixing the octaves and pickups height, this knowledge can save you from your worst nightmares You'll thank me later

Guitar low end is super underrated

People using the bass only for the low end, EQing the low end out of guitars, it sounds like there's only bass down there. It's "clear", but heavy music is not clear. Plus, literally your fundamental is down in the low end. Let the guitar do its thing. When I think of a mix that sounds amazing where you can tell there is low-end left in the guitar but where the bass fills in more of it (instead of being the only thing down there) is Arch Enemy's Wages of Sin album - thing absolutely rips and it's 22 years old.

It’s all song dependent for me. If the bass was produced with more growl and grind than guts, I’ll leave/add more guts to the gtrs. Sometimes, a more neutered guitar is what’s needed of the bass is big and gross (in a good way).

It's nice to hear this. I started leaving in more low end in the guitars and I like how it sounds. In my remake of Metallica's album St. Anger, I don't remember exactly but I only did a soft slope high pass up to like 80hz max, and cut out a tiny bit of the low mids, as shown in the video. Cranked the gain and master volume of the crunch channel in the amp sim, going into an oversized Mesa cab IR with creambacks or blackbacks, and the guitar tone is huge. I like the tone so much that I changed my real amp setup and am using the same basic formula for my next project.

Also the top end. We've been suffering from "Bubble bath" guitar tones for almost 20 years. It happens in the top end fizz. Guitars are going "frosh frosh" instead of "vwom vwom". Bring back the fire, brimstone. Drain the bubble bath.

Don't kill the lowend on the guitars. Kill the boxyness! That usually sits around 500 - 1000hz, and those frequencies are too honky for metal. What works is scooping those, but adding like a bit of 1000 Hz to bass, and that way bass jells very well with guitars because they aren't trampling over each other.

Tube screamer ( vol 10, gain 2, tone 5) +Rectofier and scoop 750hz -16db = instant old school Metallica tone. Works on any modeler, any VST or the real thing. Also it's pretty close to the Ampeg Dying Fetus tone.

Who is this guy in the video? Excuse my ignorance😊

Which NTM is this?

My problem with guitar nowdays is the lack of high end.

Everyone is afraid of high end. Everyone is afraid of edge. Everyone is afraid of low end, and want way too much fucking midrange in their guitars. Stop it. It doesn’t sound good. It never has. The key to heavy tones is literally never “let’s add more midrange”. And honestly the guys at URM/NTM definitely push some of this by the “producers” they have on many times.

I agree leave some more low end in the mix. Your instrument should sound like you. It’s not a be all, end all. Everyone is different. Some guitarists have more lows, some more mids, some more highs. Some scooped some boosted or some bastardized combo. Bring character back into music. Another thing is bass guitar. You can’t talk about heaviness without bass guitar. Depending on the Bass tone where its character is whether scooped or mid boosted, extended lows or highs. guitarists should determine where they are combined with the bass guitar.

Wolfheart, baritone, ultimate tone

I completely understand everything he’s saying and I agree though I’m also a hypocrite. I am as of very very recently just getting away from old habits. I do low pass really low in general though. Like 6500hz

I think some of the best modern tones have come from BFMV. Sounded like shit when Carl Bown was showing his EQing on here. Sounded crisp in the mix though.

E standard

Tired of these "modern" sticky guitars. I'm definitely going against more heavy rock guitar sound. Less distortion and less highs. Old strings will help in that regard and we shall not mention the mental modern metal drum sound.

Agreed

I'm finding this vid quite hypocritical, you guys are strong advocates of low end cuts on guitars , now this, c'mon seriously

I just adjust it till it sounds punchy, there is no magical setting. Everything is offset by how you pick, your pickups, interface presets, daw setup, and what you’re using as an amp. Some amps have tone knobs where the difference between 1 and 10 is like hardly anything.

Vanilla sausage

Who is this from what band?

U have to mix your tone with the other instruments, your bass is where the lows are and should stay, the guitar is a midrange instrument, it shouldn’t be super low or high. Drums are an important piece to finding your guitar tone. U will drive yourself nuts doing the guitar time in a room by yourself.

Iv been listening to a lot of slam bands and the guitar tones are awesome they basically dont follow any trends and everything is super exagerated like completely scooped mids so its mothing but bass and treble and bass drops are so cranked they distort the entire track

A lot of tones are just weird and blended too much with synth and bass to a fault so it’s just like a weird indiscernible wall of noise. Example would be the new ADTR song. But bands like knocked loose are using more gain and lowened in a tasteful way.

12;/20 yeh that will change, the next big moves in Guitar music will be RAW AF, and possibly strip down AF, I think we might see a scene appear that is similar to grunge was in that regard, although I think this time around it will be more Metal based than Rock and Punk based. The ultra polished modern tones are very very boring. I personally go for a middle ground of clarity but with some dirt/filth so its not sterile. Kids, start messing with RAT pedals again LOOL (try OD's in front of them etc)

About time someone said this. Modern Metal guitar tones are atrocious. Incredibly congested, cloudy, quacky and fatiguing. A good Metal tone needs a mid scoop, it was always that way and it will never change. That 500 Hz range needs a dip, often the 200-300 range needs a slight taming and the 1.2k range needs a dip. The tone has to be clear, transparent and slamming and those modern metal fart noises are the exact opposite of that. At some point a bunch of morons on the internet starting pointing out that "gUiTaR iS a mIdRaNgE iNsTrUmEnT" like it's this really smart thing to say. Well first off, that's in terms of the tonal range of the instrument within an arrangement, you dorks. Secondly, it stops being a midrange instrument when you tune everything down to drop-X!

Tubes! 😂

let's goo

Bottom end is the fuckin KEY. ABSOLUTE KEY.

Of course you can add some analogue picking at weirder synths generated sounds and put both in the virtual cabinet, but a real guitar sounds differently to the well breed ears. Namastè.

Many use guitar plugins and plugins just don’t have that low end

A lot mids suck.

They lack depth. Why use 10 words to say one? 😂

Sims are for simps

1.25kHz boost is the worst thing ever.