What About Those Who've Never Heard About Jesus? 

The innocent “heathen” who has never heard the gospel goes straight to Heaven when he dies. Why shouldn’t he, if he’s innocent? The next question, however, is crucial: Where is such a person? There is forgiveness available, but no one will be saved without the gospel of Jesus Christ. What does this mean for those who have never heard of him? Greg goes into more detail in his two-part article. Read part 1 of “The ‘Heathen’ and the Unknown God” - rsn.pub/429ifHY Read part 2 of “The ‘Heathen’ and the Unknown God” - rsn.pub/426Qtfn

You know when I read some of the most vile, hateful, nasty remarks on some video's on youtube that makes me cringe and want to get as far away from those that make those remarks, then I think God loves these people, it always amazes me. What amazes me more is I used to be alot like them before I let Him in my life! Thanks for the great video. :)

To God be the glory.

I'll mention it only because you opened up a crack and calvanism leaked in. I'm not the guy to debate this, but there are 2 among many that are very equipped. I recommend Leighton Flowers or Steve Gregg. I attended GCC for almost a year during the shutdown and became increasingly troubled by them finding determinism in just about every passage they were teaching. I approached 4 of the 22 pastors there to answer questions regarding what they teach. I even spoke to Phil Johnson twice in person and once on the phone to arrange this discussion/Q&A/debate, what ever format they liked. I even offered to pay the expenses. "No way", was their answer after about 3 months of trying. Greg, I learned much from you through the years, as I have from Leighton and Steve. I see you on equal footing with them, and I think the true believers would benefit from a talk or two or three. All the Lord's best. Greg T.

"Nobody goes to hell simply because they didn't believe in Jesus". Huh? Hasn't this been exactly the prevailing belief of the church for centuries, that each person has to believe? Why all the mission trips then...

People (in this situation) are going to hell, not because they rejected Jesus (whom they have never heard of) but because of their own wicked ways. You dont need to know God or His moral standards to recognize that murder is evil, rape is evil, theft is evil etc.

It's certainly the way I feel Like the man in the video says 👍 Though there is no excuse for murderers that doint know Christ They still condem themselves By destroying life also those that destroy the innocence of childhood and are so condemned.

As I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found an altar with this inscription: "To the unknown God." Who therefore has saved you as unknown is the same Jesus Christ I now proclaim to you. (Acts 17:23)

Amen! Definitely what Romans is teaching about the good news, love and grace of God.

Right or wrong is different all across the world isn't it?

Not knowing os not a problem. To humanity, a whole host of all manner of sin, including not knowing, WILL BE FORGIVEN. Mathew 12:31-32 Mark 3;28

You have some good points for sure, but some of the things you’re saying aren’t Biblically accurate. Because according to scripture, EVERYONE will be judged for not accepting Jesus (and His Sprit). It’s not just about the Father, because Jesus and the Holy Sprit have always been joined with the Father, and all three were completely involved in creating the universe. ~Genesis 1:2 and Colossians 1:17. Also, Jesus said “If you’ve seen Me, you’ve seen the Father” ~John 14:9. And “I and the Father are one” Jesus said ~John 10:30. And Romans 8:9 states that “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, does not belong to Christ (God)”. So if someone is rejecting the Father, then they are equally rejecting the Son Jesus Christ and His Spirit as well. Ultimately, God (Father, Son, and Holy Sprit) knows people’s hearts. And He knows who wants to be joined to Him and who doesn’t. The Bible says God doesn’t want anyone to be destroyed. Instead, He wants all people to be saved, because He loves us all (even though not everyone is His child). That’s why He made the Way. ❤

Isaiah 55:8. Trying to understand the plans of God is unfruitful and impossible. Your ideas of the fairness of God has no merit. God as creator is the ultimate potter and His actions are perfectly moral no matter what anyone else thinks.

This is all very ironic coming from a Calvinist. What he said here completely contradicts his calvinist worldview.

Romans 2:12-13 “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” KJV

"As ALL died in the first Adam, so ALSO ALL were made alive in Christ (the last Adam) to walk in newness of Zoë-life (divine life) again. Bornagain by Holy Spirit makes Christ visible in your life. What lots of people (even pastors) don't (yet) understand. God created us according to His own image and likeness. Godly. Mankind/the first Adam fell. The image of God in man got lost. That's why there is all this predicament on earth (selfishness, greed, lust, wars, sicknesses, death, etc). We are all born into that mess. For the fall of man a perfect atoning sacrifice had to be made.... that is what God did in Christ. With His own once and for all perefect sacrifice, He paid the debt for the fall of man for us, so we can be indwelled by His Spirit again and finally receive the divine life of the ages back, the first Adam let got of in the fall of man. An amazing act of grace and love by our creator. That is what you see happening in Christ's first disciples. They too healed all and walked in unselfish love. And yes.... that is still avaible today. The holy blood is in place, the Holy Spirit is here to give us understanding, power and transform us back to origin. Not to be debated about, but to be embraced and be-come. So: The Kingdom of God already came. Through Christ, in Spiritform, in those that understand. Hence the divine healing miracles we experience. God manifested in Christ to give us back the divine life mankind lost in the fall of Adam. Christ, the exact image of the invisible God. The image we were created after in Gen 1. The image we lost in the fall of man. The image that can be freely restored by Christ's blood and Holy Spirit working IN us. What a plan. What a solution. What a love. What a God. Jesus is amazing. It is the ultimate conclusion of the word and plan of God. God came full circle. He Himself stooped down from glory to restore us back to original created value: Christlikeness. Walking in divine healing power and unselfish love. Jesus, born of the Spirit of God, filled with the spirit of God. The "Son" of God, the incarnated word, God in the flesh. For three years He healed all, raised the dead, casted out demons, controlled nature, spoke pure divine truth. He said: "Follow Me. If you see Me, you see the Father. The Father and I are one. The glory I have IN My Father, I give to you. It pleases the Father to give you His Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature. I will send Holy Spirit, the same as Me, He will be IN you, guide you into truth and give you explosive power. The same miracles i do, you will do too, because you will understand that the Father is IN Me and I am IN you. Freely I give you My Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, freely I give, freely share" Etc, etc, etc. I have experienced thousands of beautifull healing miracles through the power of Holy Spirit IN me already. Broken bones, cancers, covid, all kinds of infirmities healed in seconds. Demons manifesting and casted out by a simple "get out, in Jesus name". Jesus. De name above all names. In Him all power and wisdom is sourced and.... He calls us one with Him. God in man and man in God again. C'mon Jesus!! So.... again: God stooped down IN Christ to restore us back to Gen 1:27 were He said: "Let us make man according to our image and likeness and let them have authority.....": walk as Christ. Christ, the exact image of the invisible God. The image we were created after and being restored to by His atoning blood for the fall of man and indwelling Holy Spirit. You are free to receive this original divine life of the ages by Holy Spirit of Christ/God. Ask Him to guide you into truth. Read the Gospel of John and fall in love with your creator. You are not made for the fall of man and its effects, but for the image/glory of God and to walk like Christ. Holy Spirit is the guide and transforming power that will get you there. Amazing grace. A big leap in faith can be made when we start realizing we are already IN Christ, IN the last Adam. Free from the fall! Loved! Growing into awareness of our new (yet old) godly identity. Changing by Holy Spirit. The most fullfilled life ever. Paul healed all on Malta. He understood and wrote: "As in the first Adam ALL died (lost the divine nature), so also ALL were made alive IN Christ to walk in Zoë (= divine life) again". "IN Christ (the last Adam) we are co-cruisified (dead to the fall and its effects), co-raised (justified/made righteousness, holy, blameless, above reproach), co-seated (one with Him)" "The fullness of deity dwells in Christ and YOU HAVE BEEN MADE COMPLETE IN HIM, who is the head of every principality and power". So.... thank you Jesus! Thank you for redeeming me from the fall of man. Thank you for your Holy Spirit that makes this new (yet old) divine life come alive in me. You are amazing! In the shadow of Peter the sick healed... He understood too and wrote: "By Gods power (Holy Spirit) and knowing Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature and have escaped the fall of man". The divine life of the ages has been returned to us by Jesus once and for all perfect atoning sacrifice for the debt of the fall of man and His indwelling Holy Spirit in us. Jesus/God is amazing!!! Ask Him to give you revelation and change you to the way it was before the fall of man: Christlikeness. He will do so. For it is written: "the Spirit brings forth after His own kind". "I have come to give you Zoë (divine life) in abundance...."

Help them to know and accept Jesus Christ and be Saved! Wait a minute! Then doesent that mean their Salvation is largely based on what another person does or does not do?

Everyone is capable of seeing who truly believes. I made that point. He doesn't need anyone to die for Him. But some people hate the truth so much they will kill those who live by it and preach it. Everyone should be mindful, eyes wide open, about whom they really serve. "You gotta serve somebody" - Bob Dylan

Also, I was indoctrinated not with the truth, but with a watered down version of it that made it alright to be a hypocrite.

I do believe in objective reality, but I can't agree with Mr. Koukl about how everybody knows the right and wrong. To some people in history it has been very common sense that there is nothing wrong with having slaves, or killing or raping somebody from a different tribe. But today it is common sense to us that it's wrong to own slaves. Maybe the moral law is written on our hearts, but it gets skewed by culture.

So........before Christianity, before Israel, before Abraham, a person would look around and say, gee, there must be some explanation for everything that exists. So he used his imagination and came up with an explanation. And the only way this person could avoid the fires of hell would be if just by luck using his imagination he came up with this scenario...."Some day in the future, the Creator of the universe would come to earth in the form of a man. This man would be put to death as payment for violating the rules of the Creator which have not yet been presented to mankind. And if the person accepts the death of this man as payment for his violation of the Creator's rules, which have not yet been given to mankind, he can receive eternal salvation. Mr Koukl, is this correct?

I don't believe I mixed it up, I believe my use of the term was misunderstood. As I stated before, beauty is 100% relative, and my basis for evaluating something as 'true beauty' comes from within, and therefore is subjective. Indeed, both are relative, and that was my point, in no way was I saying my viewpoint was any less 'absolute' then his, but that I personally viewed his to be wrong. No contradictions were made.

This makes a lot of sense, but what about Romans 10, which says "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" It makes it seem that people around the world have to actually hear about and know who Jesus is in order to be saved, or else they will be condemned, and not just be judged by what they already know.

Short, well thought out, and right to the point - nice job... again! :)

I didn't just imply, I stated that some one has something missing to search for such external objects when we have everything we need here on earth. To prescribe an anthropomorphism to things is natural, its when one seeks to use that metaphor in order to place themselves above others that it becomes an issue. The Jews are "Gods chosen", Christians are "Gods chosen", the Muslims are "Gods chosen"; also I do not place nature as an external, but internal. Where did you get that Napoleon quote?

"There is no obligation on God's part (to give grace)" sure, but I think a more full theological concept of grace is that it is the very life of God that is extended to creation, which enables man to know right from wrong and to see what God has created...living according to the knowledge that they have been given. Grace is "unmerited", but it is so much more than that, Greg.

AMEN

What about (eg.) tribes who were taught to kill their enemies and eat them in order to absorb the desired qualities they possessed (bravery, fearlessness, etc.) They clearly believed in their heart that what they were doing was good, yet also clearly this was a great offense against God. Innumerable examples exist which space doesn't permit to list so all we have left is that people are likely given a chance at salvation after death if they had no chance at salvation here on earth.

Wait I'm confused ..... if people can be saved if they haven't heard of Christ.... then y would I tell them about the gospel??

The assumption that human beings know the mind of God isn't such a shocking one if God has revealed himself. The Christian claim is that God has revealed Himself to all (not privately, necessarily) in the person of Jesus Christ. This revelation is not tucked away, available only to a small club, but He is there for anyone who seeks. If Christ is examined and found strong (and I have reason to believe He is), knowing the "mind of God" isn't so far fetched.

part 2..on the road to Damascus) At the PENTECOST, the Disciples were bathed in SPIRIT which came as...TONGUES OF FIRE AND THE RUSHING WIND..again..the Light and Sound. Why was so little of the Light and Sound put into the Bible? Simply, the Roman Church had no control over it, or any exp. with it. There were 18 Gospels, only 4 got put in. Much is left out. I don't FEAR GOD'S WRATH. I've had countless past lives. I've learned the world is just a school. We need to be uplifted not saved.

good sound biblical teaching.

I think the idea is though, once we are born again and having become new creatures, we change and no longer look or act like the 'world'. At least that is the case with me and many other Christians. If we haven't changed, something is wrong. But I realize, painfully so,(memories of what I used to be) this does not make me better then those still lost. Just immensely grateful to the Lord.

@huffle: are you saying on "right" and "wrong" that this is dictated based upon my mind and gained awareness, etc? More specifically, do you mean by that, this right and wrong are pretty much up to each person's view of what is right and wrong, and that is just how it is and we should accept that? I am just seeking clarification to understand where you are coming from. your post caught my attention. thanks for any further clarification.

Regardless, the selfishness is prominent; why does one need to believe in God to get into heaven? Why does a child who has never once harmed anyone, but does not believe in God, get doomed to hell; while the rapists who seeks forgiveness does not? Why would a benevolent being doom his favorite creation to hell simply for not believing in him? Even men have less callousness.

@ryan84160 Good question, as I've already stated an extraordinarily small amount of ppl will come to saving faith through general revelation(aka natural revelation) and by doing missions we can potentially increase the amount of people saved. Also, we have an obligation to carry out the great commission, but that was to make disciples, not "convert" lots of people, so that doesn't necessarily require that preaching of the gospel to the very corners of the earth per se.

Thank you for responding, but I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that Koukl's position is arbitrary. My point was that your position is self-refuting.

How does the vessel ever do wrong? Surely you know. Whenever you choose self-will over God's will. Hate and love may be subjective terms, as are right and wrong, but not exclusively. They are also objective terms defined by God.

It was in reply to sunshinegirl1967, about 4 months ago. I was meaning the concept of those who think religiously, thus their mind is in a different state then those who don't. Oh, I agree, but that doesn't mean that all religious people do not have similarities in their mindset, and therefore their ideology/way of thinking.

Read "Letters from a skeptic." It gives clear answers for what you said.

I did look up those references, and guess what? They don't say anything about someone who is incapable of understanding. Of course, back in Jesus' day, they probably would have thought my son was simply demon-possessed.

Who decides? God does. How can anyone else know who truly believes? By their fruit. "A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit..." Hypocrites don't bear good fruit. The "die for Him" comment was speaking about depth of commitment mainly, but also literally if need be. Tell me who lives in "absolute purity"? I don't see how someone could completely agree with and live by the words of Christ yet hate Him. But I suppose it's possible. Again, a person who truly repents is truly forgiven.

@k12rising You're actually at odds with most Christian apologists on a couple points. Most Christian apologists are not anti-intellectual, and most Christian apologists don't say morality doesn't exist without God. They say ABSOLUTE morality doesn't exist without God. If hearing the gospel makes us eternally accountable, then preaching the gospel is the most viscous thing you could do to someone. It puts their afterlife in serious jeopardy, decreases their odds of going to Heaven.

Prove that it is not just some priestly interpretation written by men. Its well known that until recently pastors told their "flock" not to actually read the bible, and to let them interpret it for them. Thus we now live in an society with people who don't even actually understand what the books they hold so dear actually mean. The bible has many meanings, to many different people; the priestly interpretation is by far the most conniving, and far off base. The bible is planet worship.

pt. 2...The Mystical Path on the other hand, allows people to explore spiritual realities for themselves and prove things for themselves. One can RECALL a past life. Noone can see Jesus returning or a Lake of Fire. These are just faith based. One can exp. Divine Light and Sound (the Word) or see themselves as SOUL. I travel the path of ECKANKAR. It has has done all these things for me.

" I don't seek external belief's in order to facilitate my world-view. Nature is true beauty, and she blesses us with the gift of life every day" Interesting that you would imply something is wrong with someone for believing in God and yet you yourself apply an anthropomorphism when describing nature.....very interesting..... "I think I understand something of human nature, and I tell you, all these were men, and I am a man. Jesus Christ was more than man.” -Napoleon Boneparte

Then why do we have a number of priests, and "prophets" trying to interpret Gods will, if no one else can know who truly believes? The fruit which was all created by God, an all knowing being which knew exactly what the results would be when he created it. Once again, why would he need some one to die for him; what purpose would that serve? Is not mindless subservience the greatest sin? Hate is a subjective term, and so is love. Forgiven for what? How does the vessel ever do wrong?

@koolwings There are basically two approaches anyone can take to a religion, Orthodox and Mystical. The Orthodox is the Outer one, it centers around the things that priests can control, rituals, ceremonies, traditions. They give out promises of Heaven forever (just do exactly what we say). Failure to follow the prescribed procedures will always result.."In being cut off from GOD, forever!" Threats like Eternal fire, eternal cold, eternal darkness are always tendered..pt. 1

True, true.

It's not just some priestly interpretation written by men. The bible is about Christ. In the OT, prophets tell of his First Coming. Not just one prophet, but dozens of prophets from different generations all added pieces to a puzzle of which they were all unaware. Christ fulfilled those prophecies as written in the NT. The teachings of Christ are "insulin" to our terminal "diabetes". One treatment, not dozens, and not whatever you want it to be.

Like mr. koule said, people everywhere have the information re: god. they readily follow false systems of belief in rebellion of the True God. these are not ignorant people. they will be judged not for rejecting jesus, but will be judged for rejecting the father whos evidence is everywhere. 2:00

pt.1..Hardly know where to begin, I have been at this for many years. My first past life recall was triggered by a sudden painful breakup I didn't see coming. That night I found myself on the Time Track and ended up in a life in Kansas in the old west as a preacher. The woman and I had the same break up back then. I couldn't let go of the pain altogether, so I had to go thru it again this life and show more detachment. Since then, I have recalled past lives as a French woman, British...

@ryan84160 Is this(your previous post) a point about what the Bible says or about whether there's evidence for God that can be found in nature? I just need a clarification, because they are obviously different question, but interesting point.

@ryan84160 You are right in saying that people who have never heard and practice cannibalism and worship the sun God etc., etc. are not guranteed salvation, but it is not because they have never heard, it is because they accepted the false Gods around them and rejected the one true Creator that is revealed by general revelation. The reason missionaries try to convert people is because almost no one will actually reject their culture's false God's and worship the God that is revealed in nature.

Well, that "evidence everywhere that God exists" as this guy puts it is what led, for example, the people in America, before it was discovered by Christopher Columbus in 1492, to worship the sun, the moon, the rain, in other words, what the Bible describes as worshiping false idols and therefore a sin against that alleged existing God. Therefore it seems it's not enough "the evidence everywhere that there is a creator" in order to be able to worship the "right" God, which takes us to another problem then. God has revealed himself to everyone? To prove a positive statement you need to prove it with UNIVERSALITY. On the other to prove a negative, in this case that God has not revealed himself to every person in this planet, I only need ONE counterexample. If anyone claimed for example: "All even numbers are prime" (which of course is a false statement), in order to prove its falseness I don't need to go one by one and show that ALL the even numbers are actually NOT prime, i.e. 2,4,6,8,.... All I need to do is provide JUST ONE even number and show that is divisible by another number other than itself and the unity. Look, sir, that book you're reading from was written about 2000 years BEFORE America was even discovered, for example, therefore, the people (not any God inspiring any authors) who wrote those verses you are reading had no idea whatsoever there was another continent were human beings had never heard of Europe either. The proof that there is no God, and hence that he cannot have revealed to anyone at all it's precisely in the fact that those cultures and tribes worshiped many different Gods that had nothing to do with the Gods people were worshiping in Europe. They had no idea who the Christian God, Jesus, etc.... were. They worshiped the sun, the moon, all sorts of natural things and phenomena, but not the Gods people worshiped in Europe and the Middle East. Thus, HOW CAN YOU, OR THAT PAUL, OR ANYONE SAY SOMEONE HAS REJECTED ANY GOD WHEN THEY HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO, BECAUSE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO REJECT SOMEONE, YOU NEED TO BE GIVEN A CHANCE TO ACCEPT FIRST, and it seems to me no Christian God revealed himself to those ancient tribes. And that same argument is applicable to other civilizations, like the Egyptians, which existed even BEFORE the Bible was written. Were the Egyptians less God-created than modern human beings, for example, for the Christian God not to reveal himself to them? Ultimately that flaw is what shows that there can be no God at all, because if there were, he would be a God who would practice segregation in the sense that he would have discriminated some of his creatures compared to the rest of them. He would have denied them the opportunity to be saved. If God exists, he is allegedly omniscient, therefore, among other things, he is perfectly just. It sounds to me sort of unfair to discriminate any human being from accessing salvation just because they didn't have access to a Bible for instance. From that, it immediately follows that there can be no God, because if there were, it would be an unfair God which is in contradiction with the hypothesis of God being perfectly just. And that also applies today, in the 21st century, when I'm sure there are still some tribes in, for example, the Amazonia, that have never heard (or "dreamed" of, like Ravi Zacharias erroneously suggests) of anyone named Jesus of Nazareth, let alone been "inspired" to write any Bible or the word of any Christian God at all. Are the members of those tribes less human or less "creatures of God" allegedly made in his image and likeness than the people in Europe? Because it seems that they have been "abandoned" by their "creator". The explanation is, of course, that there is no such thing as a God or creator of the universe. This is the kind of proof that is known as "Reductio ad Absurdum" because the way it works is you first assume or take as true, just for the time being, some statement you wish to determine if it's true or not, and then, from there, you go on a chain of statements that are automatically derived from the assumed hypothesis along with some known facts until you reach a dead end where there is a total and absolute INCOMPATIBILITY with the initially assumed hypothesis (God having revealed himself to all mankind, implying thus that God in fact must exist) which is therefore rendered FALSE.

Actually that was wrong at the beginning wen he said u don't have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. In john 14:6 Jesus says,"I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." That means no one goes to heaven but through Jesus. You must know that Jesus died for your sins to go to heaven. That is why missionaries go out and unreached people have dreams about Jesus and learn more about him.

Hey guru, Where did you get your sense of right and wrong?

@SeraphsWitness Please provide context for the bear story. To me information is what's written down. Knowledge is what one has experienced/applied. We've got plenty info about miracles, but I've yet to be convinced that ANYONE has knowledge of them. If nobody had ever discovered or translated any of of the gospels, how would we have any information about Jesus? The deity and the dogma are inseparable. If YOU can trust it and it brings you contentment/peace/happiness, -OK. I can't.

I don't trust "priestly interpretations" anyway, if you mean Catholicism. Yes the bible is a book that was authored by men, but that proved true in its predictions regarding Christ. I have never been to a church that told people not to read the bible. The Catholic church does that. Have you ever read it? I totally agree that "the priestly interpretation is by far the most conniving..."

@rlhoope526 pt.1 You're right, there isn't much more to talk about. All the troubles of the world weren't caused by a fallen angel that GOD could easily have stopped or because two people ate a piece of fruit. I was a preacher in Kansas in the old west. It was a good life. But, when I died, I crossed over and went before the Judgement. I was grateful to learn that there was no Eternal Damnation. Good people go to good places. It doesn't matter what you believe. Really, rlhoope, had you..

wlrugby, I fail to see how you can reliably maintain this interpolation considering the fact that the nazi party was avowedly secular, made the catholic centrist party illegal, and conducted a variety of clergy trials following the period in which Pius XI issued the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge. I think its akin to claiming that the nazi party was representative of workers rights based on their political rhetoric, while ignoring the fact that they dissolved Germany's trade unions.

@veritaslogos First of all Greg's conceptualization of God, and the limitations that he imposes through his faith. Deepak is very relaxed and thorough in his explaination of HIS limited perception of God. Greg speaks as if he has the right answer but he does not. re is very speculative in his argument using a lot of what ifs and maybes. Greg got crushed in using the analogy of medicine against Deepak as a medical doctor. But Deepak point out that there are various methods for healing the sick.

@ryan84160 It is perfectly reasonable for people who haven't heard God's name to know him, they just wouldn't know him by that name. And, the orthodox view of hell isn't that God eternally tortures people for something that's is out of their control, rather the orthodox view is that people freely reject God as revealed by natural revelation, and in choosing the to reject God they accept hell, which can most accurately be defined as complete and utter separation from God.

@ryan84160 I do believe that, there are plenty of stories from missionaries who have encountered a similar story to the one you described. The reason they reject the God is by accepting the false religions, and they don't have to know of this God by name, as Paul talks about in the first few chpts of romans, we are all culpable because of general revelation by nature.

No, I do not follow or know much about Catholic doctrine because I was raised Protestant. Until I turned 20, I only went to church because my parents took me. And at home, my parents only prayed before meals. We were nominal Christians. IOW hypocrites. EVERYONE knows right from wrong. Even kids. Wrong is simply selfishness. No theology doctorate needed. We are terminally infected with the cancerous disease called selfishness. It will consume us.

I will say this. No one is as innocent or sin-free as they seem. If that child is old enough to know right from wrong and chooses to not believe in personal accountability to a God who judges all moral crimes no matter how small, then that child is being very foolish. It's not just belief that there is a God that would save that child anyway, although that is a start. It's a specific belief in a specific person. "...for without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin..."

@turok25 Excellant point. I often direct people, since they're already on RU-vid, to go ahead and type in Near Death Exp. or Past Lives or Out of Body Exp. and see the insights that everyday people, who are not trying to sell anything, have from geniune accounts of a Mystical nature. GOD is not an idiot who let things get so out of control, then punishes Man for it. Rather the world's a school and everyone is hopefully moving forward.

I'm talking about ALL of them. How about this obvious one for starters: LEV 20:9 "'For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death: he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. LEV 20:10 "'The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, even he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. And the 6th commandment "Thou shalt not murder". It's just too easy...

@ryan84160 where does the bible clearly show that knowing Christ is the only way? If that is the case how were the Old Testament Jews saved? How was Job saved, he didn't even have the Pentateuch.

pt.2 ..excommunication, etc) that the prostestants later threw out. And didn't the Apostles "open themselves up to Mystical Experiences"? Paul said that.."he knew a man caught up in the third heaven whether in the body or out of the body etc." THAT was a Mystical experience. Does the Bible condemn this? Church officials don't want anyone (even today) having Mystical exp. that challenge their dogma. Imagine, parishoners recalling past lives. That's one reason they killed the Gnostics.

It is "your" understanding. Where in the bible does it say this? If you believe the bible to be the infallible word of God, it should specifically state this, should it not?

Greg basically said God is more holy than He is loving...

Which predictions were proven true? Yes; tho I have not read the entire book from beginning to end, its not exactly an act of literary genius. Anyways, I have seen evidence to suggest that the copy of the bible we now use is altered from its original form, and especially with the King James version. The parts about "governments being appointed by God", sure tends to put into perspective why its so fluently pushed by those in power.

What happened to your original comment? By the way, there is no such thing as "the religious mind" just like there is no such thing as "the Atheist mind", "the German mind", "the Chinese mind", etc. There are some commonalities and generalizations you can make to a certain extent about any particular group, but you'll find that there are also stark differences. Especially with that extremely broad term, "religious". Even amongst the subgroup "Christian" there are extreme differences in beliefs.

The better translations out there make numerous citations within the script noting which verses were in the original manuscript and which were not. Did you know the woman accused of adultery passage was not original? Please tell me who in power pushes the bible just because of one little verse?

To say the Bible is full of inconsistencies can be debated, but to say its full of mistakes technically can't be said by you unless you know what the Bible should say. Also these 2 verses from Leviticus that you bring up, for kicks lets assume its God's law, is saying there's a penalty for doing those acts. If thats God's law, whether you agree with it or not, whats the big deal if there is a penalty for breaking it. So bringing up the "thou shalt not murder" doesn't follow

@SeraphsWitness The bible has a bunch of info about yahweh. But that's just information, not knowledge. If he didn't have the bible, on what would he base his knowledge of what yahweh would or wouldn't do? And even if you're just going by the bible, that god has wiped the slate clean (nearly) before. He's taken revenge on behalf of the Israelites, made bears attack boys because they called someone names, etc. How can you make any assumptions about what he will do?

I've read johnq527's response several times and I can't follow the train of thought. Are you saying that if God tells you to break a commandment then it's OK because it's His commandment? And "to say its full of mistakes technically can't be said by you unless you know what the Bible should say" doesn't make any sense to me. If I write "blue is red" in a book are you saying you can't say it's a mistake because you don't know what I "should have said"? I don't know what you're talking about.

He is better off saying "I have no idea"

@ryan84160 It's a false dilemma because there's a third alternative, namely that we can get to heaven without ever hearing of Christ, but through him. This just means although we may not now of his existence consciously we can still be saved because of his death on the cross(aka, God punished Jesus for our sins so we don't have to bear their cost).

Therefore, the Pakistani who was indoctrinated into Islam and taught that Christians were evil and all their teachings lies, whose whole life was spent under constant pressure to believe the tenants of Islam, who tried with the purest of desire to please God as he understood him, will suffer for all of eternity when he dies at the hand of a suicide bomber at the age of 15. In the meantime, Christians preach that God is love.

Who decides when one "truly" believes in Christ? Who is Christ but a anthropomorphism of a way of life, and not a literal representation? Why would you die for a being which has specifically sacrificed himself so that you do not have to do the same? Kind of defeats the purpose of his sacrifice. So the person who lives in absolute purity, but does not follow the word of Christ is damned to hell; and the person who lived their life in complete sin up until the end is freed to heaven.

I'd love to explain to you the difference between the Civil, Priestly, and Moral laws of the OT if you're interested. If you don't read the bible without proper cultural context it can be very misleading.

@ryan84160 Yes that is an interesting thought, but my position is that Christ is the only way, and what that means is that the only way one is saved is because of Christ's sacrifice. One needn't know about Christ necessarily.

For instance the events surrounding his birth. The census was called which made his birth town Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) Then Herod's rampage fueled by the religious leaders where he sent out an edict to kill all males under 2 yrs old.(Jeremiah 31:15) His parents took him and escaped to Egypt by the warning of an angel sent to them. (Hosea 11:1) This is just for starters. Ha ha, the bible wasn't meant to be a literary work of art. It's a spiritual book. You have to have ears to hear.

pt. 3..out of the preacher life Judgement, happy to be in one of the Heavens, but still dismayed to find out that so much of what I taught simply wasn't true. Bad people go to bad places but they are temporary. Eventually all SOULS make it back..a PERFECT GOD WOULDN'T have it any other way.. So, what is the PURPOSE OF LIFE HERE? TO BE SAVED? GOD could've saved everyone by just wiping the slate clean with Adam and EVe. Think about it. Maybe we're here to learn to LOVE UNCONDITIONALLY.

Good grief Charlie Koukl?? How do YOU know what god would/would never do?

@ryan84160 what does that have to do with anything?

A serious question: I was raised a Christian and have now rejected Christianity because I sincerely believe it's false, not of God, but of man. I believe I've made the intellectually and morally responsible decision. I still respond positively to God's revelation/will/etc (or at least I think I do). If I turn out to be totally wrong/deceived, do I get a similar Heaven-pass like the African tribesman?

I agree with you and Greg on the point that everyone has the Divine Good written in their heart, but Greg says that they knowingly rebel against GOD and worship a false system. People generally believe what they are raised to believe. If Greg were born in Saudi Arabia, I have no doubt that he would be preaching fundamental Islam. Is that a rebellion? THE JUDGEMENT I have found is just a life review, where SOUL can see It's mistakes and do better next time. Type in Past Lives on RU-vid.

Well, then that clearly shows that the bible has been manipulated in order to facilitate certain people's objectives then, doesn't it... There is very powerful "religious" factions, the Vatican, and the Jesuits are one of the most powerful human organizations on earth; the Catholic Church is also one of the largest land owners. “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.” ― Napoleon Bonaparte

this video was edited wrong. it seems like he's saying that those who have never heard about Christ "won't" go to hell....not true. He is giving scriptural references about God's revelation to us through Creation etc.... Fact: if you don't accept Christ you go to hell. Abraham didn't have the scriptures (weren't written yet) etc, but God revealed Himself to him and he responded. this video needs to be re-edited.

This simply doesn't make any sense to me. Aside from the fact that it's completely irrelevant. Koukl seems to be making accusation about people he has never met. Creation may be (for any Christian) evidence for Gods existence, but there is one problem, they are culturally bound by other Gods who are said to have created the Universe, rather then Yahweh or Jesus. Gods Moral standards are written in their hearts? What does that even mean? It's all Culturally subjective. There is nothing written.

Er......How do you know Greg??

You may find this pointless redundant arguing fun, but I don't. I have a life to live. So, dear Neutral, go your way and live your life however your darkened mind sees fit, until you come to the end of your days when you find yourself in the forewarned position of having to give an account of yourself to the God you never believed existed.

@ryan84160 It is a third alternative because faith is involved, namely faith in the creator of the universe as revealed through general revelation. This is the way Jews were saved in the Old Testament and how Job was saved. Again, although these people don't know about Jesus, they can still be saved through Christ's atonement because of their faith in God.

@ryan84160 There are a plethora of stories from missionaries who have encountered tribesmen who've said that they already knew Jesus. It certainly seems absurd, but the fact is God works in wondrous ways(sry really cliche i know :P). I would think it would usually happen more like it did to a missionary friend of mine, who encountered a group of people in asia who had never heard the gospel but they said they had been having dreams and the instant my missionary friend mentioned jesus they said

@MagenticAdam66 Actually, Satan is a still a servant of God even in his rebellion. Have you never red the book of Job. and seen that God puts limitations on Satan and Satan obeys God? or how the demons react just at the mere sight of Christ Mar 5:6-7 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Let me give this scenario: What if I was a parent and I had five kids. All of them were sinking. ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT I ONLY HAVE 2 LIFE VESTS!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I WOULD LOVE THEM TO DEATH, given all their sin! I would throw FIVE of them out, and for those who choose to grab hold, I will rejoice! For those who choose not to, I will WEEP!!!!! THAT IS GOD. God isn't just going to throw out 2, and be like, well, the rest don't deserve it anyway! How repugnant of a belief!

@drumrnva The Bible?