What actually is the Overground, and why? 

When I've played this game ive crashed more times than not especially in the Tokyo version

One might argue that it depends how much of the DLC you end up buying…

….

They’ve done an interesting tie up with LNER. Saw a video LNER had made of one of their drivers playing the game driving her train! It’s good marketing

@@itsgood2slide well, no i would more argue that all that use that "joke" of how expensive Dovetails Trainsim is never looked a bit into it ... or other Sims like DCS Flight Sim, since well, the thing is: they are all expensive if you go to the "buy all" but nobody does that since that takes years to complete. And it's not that it's like a Sims Addon where you might miss something out and also cost a lot ... but also don't need everything ... and don't buy it when it's not on sale every few months

Most people compare the Elizabeth Line and Thameslink to RER and S-bahn services because they have a centre city tunnel, although I guess you could say the Overground is a bit like the Berlin Ringbahn, which is part of the S-Bahn network too, sooo yeah, I suppose? Not sure what the difference is in station spacing though.

Not really. Almost all S-Bahn systems are much more similar to the Liz Line than the Overground

Elizabeth Line, Thamesline and Northern City Line are like the RER.

@@katrinabryce the Northern City Line maybe not so much, it reaches the city centre bue it doesn't cross it.

The S-bahn abreviation mostly stands for Schnellbahn, although it has occasionally been used to refer to Stadtschnellbahn or Stadtbahn, but usually a Stadtbahn is something different (mostly light rail or tram-trains). Nonetheless, this opens a bigger can of worms: what is exactly a S-bahn? There is only one thing called the London Overground, and it's an amalgamation of a more or less orbital route and different commuter lines. When you look closely at the different S-bahns you start realizing that Berlin's s-bahn is quite different from Munich or Hamburg, and then Zurich's s-bahn is even more different. And then even Zurich has a line that is completely different from the others. I don't really see "s-bahn" as well defined concept.

Sound like the 4 yorkshire men sketch.

@@simontay4851 Sounds more like Stevenson has risen from the grave!

At least your line survived the Beeching axe from being so busy.

people in America

Paradise!

Ah, but so is the underground.....

But, but … the overground doesn’t go to Wimbledon (yet) 😉

​@Sigira0 don't know if that's planned either, they would have to ask southwest and the District line. Only thing I've heard of is that new line cross country that's meant to include wimbledon

Darn. I was just about to write that!

How much does it cost to insure a womble?

It's the Wombles without Wimbledon Common.

​@@NeilBlenkironI think Wimbledon has a NR line that's not Thameslink - if only it could be added to the Overground network (perhaps with a statue of a Womble on the concourse, next to a recycling bin?)

It's not all National Rail in the city - it should be though.

​@@DavidShepheard The overground is all national rail, in the city

Come to think of it, it does seem like a conflict of interest that ministers are also MPs. You can’t really make decisions on behalf of the whole country while also representing one particular part of it.

@@nickchambers3935 They are supposed to let another minister (usually a more junior or senior minister in their own department) take such decisions.

Which sums Grayling up.

Ahh classic, the Tories in Epsom and Ewell in denial that they are in London. They were in denial in the 1960s when they refused to be included within the boundaries of Greater London by lying that the borough was "free from the features which are characteristic of suburban areas" when that was obviously untrue. Nothing has changed😂

@@norbitonflyer5625supposed to, indeed!

Some of us need a fix in between Jago’s videos.

@@PaulMcElligott It takes up less room than an actual model railway. Please don't tell Hornby. Have you seen their prices?

This works as well for banks and insurance companies.

The Watford DC line was awful under Silverlink. Seeing the new Class 378s and the bump in frequency was a HUGE improvement, not to mention that they relaid the track around the same time.

I still call it the 'New Line'. When I worked at Watford Jct in the 1960s everyone called it that. The LNWR built it in 1917 to be electrified; hence the 'New Line'.

As I understand it; it was originally built to relieve services between Watford and the now long-demolished Broad street terminus.

Yep. that was my daily commute for a while in the late 90s. It was awful.

It was built to provide electric commuter services alongside the lnwr main line between watford and both euston and broad street

Incredible sponsorship, I hated them for their DLCs this just made me like them 1% more

Today of all days!

​@@kingayman5225 ditto. Dlc for individual tube lines = robbery

I feel like it wants to be an S-Bahn but doesn’t quite achieve that goal In order to be a true S-Bahn system, a bunch of suburban Overground lines would have to converge and follow the same heavily-trafficked route through Central London

Mersyrail and metro link vist Yorkshire we've got a supertram and northen fail and depressed Leeds thst just a tear away

I’m old and confused enough to not decide what’s worse… - A high number of competitive companies not getting services connected, - A small number of companies pretending to compete, but secretly deciding not to get services connected, or - One enterprise having bought all the others, making money on property & shares, and not bothered getting their own services connected, lastly - The government inventing franchises, and we’re back to start - except nobody owns anything to get services running at all… I think I’ll ask Marx…😂

Do I spot a Sherlock Holmes fan?

​@@PeterGauntor the Limehouse golem ?

@@PeterGaunt Whato Peter, yes you do.

This is true. The overground simply referred to the big trains that weren't the Underground.

Yes. I had family who lived in London during the 1990's and they called all the train services using the mainline simply "overground" regardless of whether they were the original British rail "network SouthEast", south west trains, silverlink, connex south eastern, or whatever. They'd say something like "oh you can use the overground". But I suppose that when TfL decided it was going to bid for train operating services within London: The natural choice of name for the service was "London overground". I lived in London between 2004-09, during which period London Overground emerged, and people still just said "the overground" to refer to urban passenger services. I expect they still do.

Except the Glasgow Subway, of course.

​@@JagoHazzardNot for much longer though... after delivery of the last of the new Stadler trains. 🙂

I was going to make a joke about Tesco and orange. But then I realised it's Sainsbury's who use orange. I think. Then I gave up the will to live. So that's two very successful brand images, then...

Silver link was just terrible. Anyone who complains about the overground needs to be ported back in time to travel on one of those

I lived in Willsden green for a period of a few months in early-mid 2007. I took the Silverlink trains a number of times in their last days before it was all wound up. I will never forget getting on a train between Hackney and West Hampstead. The bottom seat on the only available seat was literally not attached to the frame and the whole area stunk of urine. I made the mistake of putting my arm up by the window to rest i and I then realised that it was filthy and it left a grey-brown stain on my sleeve. Then if things couldn't get any more unappealing; at a station in between, the late singer Amy Winehouse and a large muscular man of Afro-Carribean heritage (probably a minder or bodyguard) got on the carriage at a stop in between and then got off again a few stops down. And she looked utterly hagged.

I miss the slam door trains. I grew up in Essex and took the train to school every day.

Yes but don't forget; Transport for London has been in a big financial black hole since the pandemic that it won't be able to get out of for many years yet. And London is the wealthiest city in the UK by no close margin.

I think both Vienna and Berlin have, but they too are both former 19th century imperial cities with lots of formerly imperial rail infrastructure. Paris is building new stuff but I have seen some mention of perhaps reopening its old orbital. Newer or poorer cities don’t have the massive infrastructure that London just has lying around ready to be renovated and reused.

I agree about the silly names part.

I've been here over 50 years, use the transport system a lot and still can't make head nor tail of some of it at times especially if I'm having a 'senior moment' when I'm going somewhere I've not been before. It's a wonder it works at all though given that the core stuff was never planned as a 'system' as Jago is so adept at explaining.

My wife won't go to London without me as she finds the transport confusing, yet I find it fairly easy - I've never lived in London, just visited.

Bwahaha what a ridiculous comment "I miss lacking independence and being treated like luggage" >wipes tears from eyes

Shirley Railroad Tycoon would have been his game?

Yes, him again

I'm one of possibly a minority of one who thinks the new colours will confuse things instead of making it easier. I think they missed a trick in not colouring in the middle of the double lines in orange or some other colour, or alternatively leaving the double lines orange and filling in the middle with the new colours. As for the new names: entirely bonkers but that's London for you I guess.

​@@PeterGaunt I still have to see the new map, but keeping it all orange was confusing for me. I am going to London soon and have to go to Walthamstow. I wasn't sure what destinations I could reach from there.

It’ll be very copyrighted

@@CarolineFord1 Oooh I wonder how that would work? I never thought about it like that. There are MANY RU-vid videos that use Microsoft Flight Sim for b-roll, for example and literally millions of videos of people just playing games. Surely the exposure of things like this - especially for something less well known such as TrainSim, would only lead to MORE purchases of the actual game. Free advertising. And nobody would think "ah, I won't bother buying that because I just see it on RU-vid instead". Maybe Jago knows how it works.

@@CarolineFord1 While technically yes, no games studio that I know of apart from Nintendo has ever really done anything about this sort of thing in a RU-vid video. And the Nintendo thing wasn't even about broll as far as I know.

@@CarolineFord1I’m not entirely sure that would be true. I believe you can create photos etc in-game and share them. Therefore how could Dovetail claim copyright if it’s “public” or “shareable” Also I’m not certain that there isn’t a TSW4 logo on said created content so surely that means there would definitely be no issue.

⁠@@garybroadhurst3548I don’t think train sim is as “less well known” as you may think. This is the 4th instalment in the series for console added to the popular PC series Train simulator of which there are many many MANY add ons that you don’t get in TSW. They now also have released a Tram Sim game aswell.

It’s a very good game. What you saw there is just a couple of the camera features you can use in the middle of your journey. As you can see the detail, especially that of the trains is fantastic. If you don’t have a console then there is train simulator on the PC from the same developer but slightly less impressive graphics wise. Try it! Get it when it’s on sale and you get some routes to start you off. You can also download older routes from the older versions of the game which will be slightly cheaper. Lots of fun to be had.

@@Jerrymouse79Yea, but can I get a free version on my Oyster 60+??!!

And up to Birmingham then Wolverhampton.

​@@RichardWatt yes, most times I used them I was going to Devon, so I would change at Birmingham New Street.

The next time a fellow American asks me “what’s the London Overground?”, I’m gonna tell them “it’s London’s version of Merseyrail.”

But Merseyrail includes all the local lines. The Overground certainly doesn't.

​@@DadgeCityIf Liverpool had trams or tube trains, I'm sure they'd be a 'separate' entity too (as in not Merseyrail, but under Merseytravel).

@@mattevans4377 The difference isn't that the tube is a different entity, it's that most railways that could be part of a similar network aren't part of the overground. In the south especially there's a lot of rail services that are entirely inside of london and in a more holistic system would be part of the overground

@@feynaomi Which is actually what TFL wants to fix, but it requires money and commitment, something the Government refuses to give, even though it's London.

What is now called the Overground was never the Underground - they are different. The Overground is former British Rail lines. (Except the East London Line which used to be part of the Underground). (And Gunnersbury to Richmond where the Overground shares tracks with the Underground) (And Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone likewise)

The Overground was introduced in 2007, so it was very likely not around when you were young.

People would use the term "overground" to describe any mainline passenger service.

maybe I can explain; in my recent videos on the 0:10 overground a fair few people based 0:12 outside of London asked what actually is 0:15 the 0:16 overground how is it defined how does it 0:19 differ from the underground or the 0:21 Elizabeth line or even regular Railways 0:25 and the more I thought about it the more 0:26 I thought it's a curious thing so what 0:30 exactly is the 0:32 overground the simple and frankly 0:35 unhelpful answer is it's all the lines 0:37 group together under the overground 0:39 brand it's hard to be more specific 0:42 because there isn't really that much 0:44 that makes them unique as compared to 0:47 other railway lines which brings us to 0:50 the bigger question which is why is the 0:53 overground well I'm going to start this 0:56 story a little over a 100 years ago in 0:58 the early 20th Cent it was well 1:01 recognized that the railways were not 1:03 the license to print money that their 1:06 promoters had hoped as a matter of fact 1:09 a lot of the major companies were not to 1:12 put too fine a point on it basically 1:15 broke so in 1921 the railways Act was 1:18 passed the idea was to group the 1:20 railways together so that the rich lines 1:22 could prop the poor lines up now 1:24 initially the plan was to divide things 1:26 up by geography Railways would be 1:29 grouped into regions most versions of 1:31 this plan had London as a separate 1:34 region even back then London was the 1:36 largest and most densely populated city 1:39 in the UK and its commuter trains were 1:41 phenomenally busy most of its Railways 1:44 were already Allied in the underground 1:46 group with the Metropolitan Railway and 1:49 the north London Railway also getting 1:51 involved in Collective decisions but 1:54 doing things geographically was 1:55 controversial because many companies 1:57 owned some highly illogical lines for 2:01 instance the Midland Railway which would 2:03 fall into the Northwestern geographical 2:05 group owned the line to Tilbury and 2:08 South End which was firmly in the 2:11 Southeast then there were several 2:13 companies for whom London commuter 2:15 trains were their largest source of 2:16 income how would the shareholders be 2:18 compensated for that so it was decided 2:21 instead to do things by company with all 2:24 the silliness that entailed the grouping 2:27 took place in 1923 the London commun M 2:30 lines stayed with the company that 2:31 currently owns them those companies 2:34 would be folded into the larger new 2:36 companies as a compromise the 2:38 underground lines would remain 2:39 independent with the exception of the 2:41 London and Southwestern Railway owned 2:43 waterl and City Line which would spend 2:46 the next 71 years being an underground 2:49 line in all but name in 1948 the 2:52 railways were nationalized although 2:54 again the underground remained its own 2:56 separate thing grouped together with 2:58 buses and trams British Railways the new 3:01 nationalized network was divided into 3:03 regions that were broadly similar to the 3:05 old grouping companies there was 3:07 additionally a Scottish region and for a 3:10 time a Northeastern region 3:12 nationalization brought with it a demand 3:14 for financial accountability if a 3:16 railway was not profitable the 3:18 government was not willing to subsidize 3:20 it the trouble was that Railways on the 3:24 whole are not profitable this period 3:27 coincided with an increase in car owners 3:29 ship so what happened was that Railways 3:32 made less money so they received less 3:34 investment so they became less 3:36 attractive to ride so they made less 3:38 money in a vicious circle in most parts 3:42 of the country this resulted in Railways 3:45 being closed altogether but even an 3:47 underused line in London was still busy 3:49 so there were few closures just a lot of 3:53 very unhappy passengers on crowded 3:55 rattling dirty trains if you'd like a 3:58 far better experience of trains in 4:00 London I'd recommend train Sim World 4 4:03 who are partnering with me for this 4:04 video train Sim World 4 allows you to 4:08 experience the railway in the best 4:09 possible way from the driver's cab and 4:12 now you can enter Goblin mode with the 4:14 suffragette line add-on it's an 4:16 adventure adventure yes I said that wait 4:20 what's that overground not really your 4:23 thing well it's a bit weird that you're 4:25 watching this video but all right how 4:27 about taking the Helm of this centinary 4:29 Ian Behemoth with the deluxe edition you 4:32 can experience the Fantastical adventure 4:34 of driving Flying Scotsman without going 4:37 bankrupt impossible not with train Sim 4:40 World 4 or if you want something more 4:43 modern how about an auma or a class 66 4:46 with Livery designer scenario Planner 4:49 free roam mode and formation designer 4:52 which is available as a beta for PC 4:54 players you can make your train look 4:56 however you like haul whatever you like 4:58 send it wherever you like can even 5:00 choose the weather which is more than 5:02 you can say for public transport in the 5:04 real world train Sim World 4 is 5:06 available on Steam epic PS4 PS5 Xbox One 5:11 Xbox series X and Xbox series s check it 5:14 out using the link in the description

I think that’s recently happened in Manchester - will be interesting to see how this works!

I believe more of the underground is in fact overground than underground.

@@camenbert5837I suspected as much, which is why I asked the question, and it seems logical to ask, which of the Underground/Overground lines actually more underground or overground.

Yeah that made me laugh too!

It was Chris Green and NSE who got the planning and funding for the Networker units that replaced the cattle trucks and still do a good job today. Some things can't be turned round instantly. NSE as a whole was good for the services that it operated.

It has improved a lot, and almost entirely over the last 20 years. But it could be a lot better still.

Yes indeed it is, and confusingly both Finchley Road & Frognal and plain old Finchley Road stations are in it.

A younger version of myself was surprised to see a freight train roll through Hackney Wick one November evening, as said younger version had assumed the branding, and presence on Tube maps, meant it was a dedicated passenger rail line.

You can try.

The media tend to just use the language that most regular people would use, and most people use 'train' in a very general sense.

This almost did happen. I have a picture of a Britannia 4-6-2 passing through Chorleywood Met Station on one of the Sheffield expresses that ran in the 1960s.

Underground trains use standard guage track. The subsurface lines use the same loading gague as trains. The actual definition of the Overground is that it is railway lines that are funded from the Overground budget. The Elizabeth Line has its own budget, Heathrow Express is funded by Heathrow Airport, and other train lines are funded from the National Rail budget.

May well have done so - A3 Pacifics regularly ran to Marylebone down the Great Central Line, which shared tracks with the Met between Aylesbury and Harrow.

There is a metro line on there I believe also the Bakerloo line has a “rush hour” add on available (as do a couple other lines including London to Brighton)