WHAT DID C.S. LEWIS Think of MORMONISM? 

With the tithing thing: I think it somewhat depends on how kind the bishop of the ward is. It's basically left up to the bishop to decide whom gets help. I had a Bishop that denied my family help when my husband lost his job. Then he turns around and helps pay for a young man's mission, even though this family made a lot of money. I had faithfully payed tithing my whole life, up until my husband lost his job, then we had to stop to be able to pay bills, and that's why we were denied. I had to go get help from the local Catholic church and their Catholic Charities. The Catholic church was very generous to us, even though we were members of the LDS church.

It seems most Christian groups-Catholic, Protestant, LDS, evangelical, etc.-like to co-opt C.S. Lewis and think he was basically one of their own. It’s a really fascinating phenomenon

I think C.S. Lewis would consider Mormonism a cult once he learned about the Temple Oaths, especially the Blood Atonement covenant.

I was born and raised in a Mormon fundamentalist cult (polygamy) and Lewis is greatly revered by many there as well, and even quoted by some of the leadership. I remember one man on the council (leadership) lamenting on how Lewis never came to Mormonism. Well for one he believed in the trinity, so how could Lewis ever believe in the evolved man-god that is the Mormon god lol.

As to church charity, it truly always has been roulette depending on the bishop or leader. I grew up poor. My mom always struggled because she was disabled. She was going back to school to be a Graphic designer and the Bishop basically told her that and art was a waste. This was the same bishop who refused to help when I needed clothes, and made my mother sign an IOU to get her car fixed. This is also the same man, who when she received a sizable settlement from a car accident had her write her tithing check directly to him, cashed it, and took his family to Europe on the funds. He later would be removed from leadership because of how he treated the poor, women, and the divorced... but he did a Hell of a lot of damage while he over saw our ward. Flip side; next Bishop was great and felt like he couldn't do enough for the members of the ward that needed help. After him came the prior Bishop's former first counselor and we were back to the feeling that poor people were just lazy or stupid and they only way he would help anyone was to have them clean the toilets at church (back when they actually had custodians they paid vs. forcing the members to do it).

I always figured Eustace from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader was Mormon based on Lewis’ description of his parents as teetotalers with religious undergarments.

Maybe someone has already mentioned this, sorry if that’s the case. It was Aristotle who said: "Every virtue carried to the extreme, is a vice."

C S LEWIS sought to explain and defend the basic beliefs of Christianity. This would include the Trinity, the Divinity of Christ, the personality of the Holy Spirit, grace, heaven and hell, and so forth. l don't think any of these items would find a warm reception among Mormons. I think he would see Mormonism as a heretical movement begun by somebody who was not a prophet and would be surprized that Mormons would be honoring him.

This is probably the reason why almost every Sunday or at least once a month leaders in my Stake and ward would teach about self-reliance. I live in the Philippines by the way. They would emphasize that before we ask the church for any help we need to ask the government agencies for assistance. One of the government agencies they recommend is the PCSO (Philippine Charity Sweepstakes Office) and yet the church teaches us not to participate in any form of gambling. This is HYPOCRISY at its finest since the money of that said agency comes from gambling. It's like telling a person not to buy illegal drugs but telling them at the same time that it's okay to benefit from the drug money. God have mercy. 🙏🏻

Would love to have you and Laura review Mere Christianity. Let us know in advance so we can read it ahead of the episode. I'm also here to validate how often Lewis is quoted in the Church. I grew up thinking he WAS a member because they quoted him so much.

I’ve got so many stories about the church not helping transitory families that were starving and sleeping on the streets. I have lived in Utah most of my life and the Mormon bubble is real.

When I got home from my mission I went to the bishops for help because I was living out of my truck, had no money, no food, and I wasn't going to be getting paid for two more weeks. I was literally at my last straw and felt so guilty to ask the bishop for help, but I had no other options. The bishop could have given me $20 and I could have made it work. He referred me to the Cathlic Community Service Center there in Salt Lake City.

I have read nearly everything C S Lewis ever published and l don't find that it is sympathetic to Mormonism. His aim was to defend orthodox Christianity and not cults that have added to or taken away from Christianity.

Smithianity and Christianity are two very distinct things. Mormonism is Smithianity.

CS Lewis believed that the orthodox view of the Trinity (which included monotheism) were essential to the Christian faith (see esp. Mere Christianity book 2, Ch 1 and Book 4 Ch 1&2). He rejected Unitarianism and polytheism, why do LDS think he could accept a man (Joseph Smith) who preached the King Follett funeral discourse?

2:52 - It wasn't his father, but his grandfather who was a pastor in Northern Ireland. His father was not deeply religious, as far as I can tell, especially not after the death of his wife.

C.S. Lewis died on November 22, 1963. He had wanted his death to go basically unnoticed, and got his wish. 'Between Heaven and Hell' by Peter Kreeft is a novel that features a conversation between Lewis, Kennedy and Aldous Huxley who all died that day. Intriguing.

Nemo continues to deliver thought-provoking content. Really, really good. Laura/Sortamormon was fantastic too. I generally don't follow Exmo TikTok, but her nuanced approach is so refreshing, that I did follow her. Thank you for the episode!

This is interesting. I am reading some C.S. Lewis books right now. The first book I read of his was The Screwtape Letters. I would also recommend Mere Christianity, The Weight of Glory, The Abolition of Man, and The Four Loves.

Cutting vaults out of mountains that they are willing to kill people who get to close. Dragon's hoard is right

When comparing the CS Lewis quotes to Benson's, although the plagiarism was evident the overall message felt very different. To me CS Lewis was wanting to check his pride so he could live as a good human being for God, while Benson wanted you to be submissive so that you could be molded by God's messengers. It's interesting to me how inspiring CS Lewis words are while Benson's feel culty. Erase yourself was Benson's message. Be one with us. While Lewis's message was to not get in your own way when trying to be a good human and to do the hard things in humility.

At 1:28:48 you talk about the plagiarism of Lewis by Benson. By this time in his life he was very old. I highly suspect that the plagiarism was done by a speechwriter rather than Benson himself. It doesn't make it right, but perhaps we should blame the system more than the man at the top who by this time was suffering from the effects of age and dementia.

hey Nemo...Do you remember ( you're probably too young ) that film the church put out in the 90's , I think, called "How Rare a Possesion"? It was a lengthy, very faith promoting true story about the conversion of a European man and his unusual story. Anyway, I recently watched it as a post mormon and found it to be rediculous. I now find the story to be rather contrived for effect, even though it may have some truth to it. Is there any way that you could fact check it??????

Urban legend has it that Lewis was baptized after death. The reason Mormons don’t know of any great philosophers is bc they aren’t quoted in talks and curriculum. For instance Paulo Coheolo and Jordan Peterson?🥰

Excellent, excellent, excellent!! Nemo, you continue to deliver with brilliant, thought provoking content & guests who are knowledgeable & articulate. I've always been a fan of C.S Lewis but you've both put a new emphasis on his humanity & wisdom. At the same time the shortcomings of the church & it's leaders have been, once again made glaringly obvious. Well done on continuing to bring truth to the forefront!

Wouldn’t it be reasonable/fair for the church to donate 10% of its income?

Yes, read Mere Christianity! I read it a year or so after I left the church, expecting to like it, based on how much I'd admired C.S. Lewis previously. I won't spoil it, but I'll tell you one thing: I'm glad I learned to identify logical fallacies before picking it up. =/

Interesting that Richardson and Thackeray would cite the Bard, whose works would make any Mormon grandma blush if his works were translated into everyday American English, lol.

This was an amazing episode. Thanks to you guys. Since expressing doubts about the church, I've already had two people close to me suggest Lewis as a model for how to doubt while staying in. I really do love the idea of redemption that comes from Christianity, but the Mormon church is the poster child of authoritarianism. Shut your minds off and obey us might as well be their slogan. I couldn't keep it up.

if you have read any CS Lewis, there is NO WAY he would affirm mormonism…. have you read mere christianity????

NEMO: Another fun show would be the works and life of G.K. Chesterton.

As a long time member (1972) I think that you are being overboard about what the church only believing that the church has all the truth...in fact Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses frequently mentions that truth is available from many other sources as well as the article of faith which I'm sure you know....incidentally I don't believe in the church but it is important to tell the whole truth and not be so judgemental

Such a great episode!! Perfect combination of humor, snark, and very well researched info. You both did a great job with this! Loved it!!

Your channel is my favorite source of thought provoking commentary on topics germane to my evolving relationship with the religion of my youth. THANK YOU NEMO! I just realized this weekend that the "Gospel Topics Essays" section on the LDS App/Website is VERY LACKING IN CONTENT... Why is that?

The Mormon church also cares about opulent gilded temples fit for Herod. And where Joseph Smith predicted his Mormon church would fill the whole earth in the last days, active Mormons only comprise about 0.000638 of the entire world population while the growth rate of the Mormon church has fallen below the world population growth rate. Even as Russell Nelson is building new Mormon temples at a much faster rate than the Mormon church is adding new Mormon members or new temple recommends.

Very fascinating! C.S. Lewis did some clear thinking concerning the essence of Christianity. Some people, like myself, become prejudiced against the word "Christianity" because of the fundamentalists and intolerant people we usually encounter who call themselves in the loudest voices to be Christians. It was for that reason that I never read any of his books because I assumed he was just one more apologist proclaiming Christianity to be the one true religion. I apologize to him wherever he may be, and I'm sure he's in a good "place". I've always thought that logically God would not expect us to accept as true that which our minds tell us is not real or true. The arguments and reasoning of C.S. Lewis seem to be universal and timeless. Laura mentions that Lewis recognized those who were true Christians by their qualities and attributes, and not by their labels, that people might call themselves Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims or Jews, but if they conformed to the morals and ethics of Jesus, then they were true Christians. A Buddhist might say that in reverse, that anyone, such as a Christian, who mirrored forth the attributes taught by Buddha are true Buddhists, even if they had never heard of Buddha. If you follow this to the logical end, then we find that the core spiritual teachings are basically the same in every world religion, or even tribal religions, because they all have had the same purpose, to create good people who treat each other with love and kindness, with the recognition that the Source of these teachings is divine. My feeling is that C.S. Lewis might agree with this. I actually first encountered this inclusive way of viewing religion in Salt Lake City! That's where I first met the Baha'is and investigated what they believed. I had deconstructed my Christianity as a college freshmen taking world history and learned about all the fascinating religions of the world and realizing that there was no way to prove that Christianity was superior or better than the others. I was absolutely puzzled by how similar the religions were, but with a few different customs like marriage and diet. Through what I learned about Baha'i, I realized that they were all one and had a common purpose of educating mankind according to the developmental levels and needs of the age in which each appeared. The Founders were like teachers in a school adapting teachings to the condition of the students. I especially liked Laura's explanation of Lewis' expanded concept of justice. Justice is really at the core of many of the world's problems. This has great meaning to Baha'is whose highest administrative body sits in Haifa, Israel and is called the Universal House of Justice. The application of love on a societal level seems to need justice.

The church has the best landscaping in all the charitable world

12:30 - you note that Maxwell quoted people besides church leaders as an "apostle" or senior church leader in 1967. Maxwell wouldn't be an apostle until 1981. In 1967 he was a regional representative.

I served in the England Manchester mission in 2005-07 when the first narnia movie was in movie theaters and all missionaries were allowed to go watch narnia in the theaters. Because we were all starved of normal life like movies, some missionaries became obsessed with dissecting and analyzing the narnia story and comparing it to the gospel. Mission president had to come out late saying you can only see the movie once because some missionaries were going to watch it many times 😂

Funny, I once had a Baptist use a story about how CS Lewis had been an atheist and convinced himself that Christianity was true. Basically, you had to assume the biblical history accounts are true, and the only conclusion was that God was real. I think he'd shudder at the thought of Mormons claiming Lewis. As a former Christian, I don't gate keep Christianity, but I know he does.

Understanding Emanuel Swedenborg is crucial to understanding what Lewis was reacting to and drawing from as well as how Joseph Smith and those around him borrowed much from Swedenborg and put their own cosmic materialist twist on his insights.

FYI: Per Wikipedia, Lewis's father was not a pastor.

After reading c s Lewis I knew i Didn't need the lds church. When they took books out of the church library that was a red flag for me. I went non lds for a while, lewis was in their library and often quoted.

I think you should read mere Christianity. It was one of the books that helped me find my faith (I was a christian). Also read the Great divorce, I would like to hear a mormons take on it as well. I find it interesting that i can find similarities between the Mormon church and the Evangelical church. Like being told not to give to charities give to the church because “the evangelical church has a greater need for the money and know what to do with it”. Also evangelical friends have told me how C.S. Lewis was a great prophet of god.

I have been involved for over a decade to try to reach people in the interreligious discourse across all boundaries. I have not seen one good thing coming out of people, that where solely involved into criticizing and knowing everything better.

Never know this about the LDS and Lewis would seem an unusual choice. I thought CS Lewis was significantly influenced by the remnants of the Oxford movement and was essential at the High Church/bells & smells end of the C of E and almost became a Catholic when he gave up all the Celtic paganism stuff? OTHO and further reflection maybe it makes sense.

THIS IS HILARIOUS!!! We all know CS Lewis was not a member of the church, nor have we ever consider him a 13th apostle (first time I heard of the 13th apostle). Mother Theresa was not a member of our church, William Shakespeare was not a member of our church (oops, too far back?), Hans Christian Andersen was not a member of our church, and even Bertel Thorvaldsen was not a member of our church. But they are all referenced in the church. Bertel Thorvaldsen was a womanizer, never married but father two children outside of wedlock. In Denmark they claim he was not a wholesome man in many ways. And yet the Church uses copies of his Christus statue and now the statues of the twelve. This statue has now become a graphic icon as part of the Church logo. Wait, what! A man who didn't join the Church who was a womanizer, who had children out of wedlock and now the church is using his sculptures to do good, HOW EVIL! John the apostle tried to stop a man from casting out devils and forbid him to stop because he did not follow Christ. But Jesus forbid John to do this. The man was doing good works. CS Lewis's writings were truly inspired of God and was doing good works. Again NEMO, I've been down the road you are on and these videos continue to push you into darkness. You will not find truth with all these false narratives, but more "thats unfair and thats not right" will just fuel the fire within you! It took me years to see the path I was on. If it was not for the kindness of my Wife and the teachings and council from my Mother. I know that I would not be member of the Church today.

This actually shows their greed! Interesting, and insightful!

God said “thou shalt not kill,” addressing all people, yet, people kill. So, God was wrong. And, if that isn’t enough for you, I can list off 9 others false statements he made.

Jesus and “God” and Christianity and Mormonism and secularist and religion and Lewis are all good and “moral” where they comport with empathy and with the principles and values of Humanism.

I believe that we all, need more guy’s like C.S. Lewis. Very interesting information in today’s podcast. Thanks.

Must be a younger generation, never thought about C. S. Lewis. I guess I am not a Modern Mormon. Bizzare concept.

You all do great work and I appreciate the informative information that you share. Thanks and Aloha 🌺

23:12 I will give you a comparison with Roman Catholic tithing, at the end of the Middle Ages, in Sweden. A farmer in the countryside would pay lots of different tithes, the majority to the parish priest. How much of this was then used for charity was at his discretion. But the biggest tithe was the cereal tithe and it was divided like this: 1 / 3 to the parish priest 2 / 3 further subdivided as to: 1 / 3 (2 / 9 overall) to the bishop of the see 1 / 3 (2 / 9 overall) to the Church as an institution (this would include expenses for building schools and for sending Seminarians to the University of Paris) 1 / 3 (2 / 9 overall) to the poor.

9:18 Obviously, Cana and how Noah symbolises Christ do get into the way of Christianity being teetotalist ... and fortunately for Lewis and myself, so do some of our habits (though in his case, 3 beers an evening was "going slow for lent" and in my case that same quantity was the highest habitual indulgence on parties back in my university days). My grandpa was a distiller of Swedish vodka, though we call that "brännvin" in Swedish and reserve "vodka" for East European versions (Absolut is a brännvin, Koskenkorva, Sobieski and some stuff from a boycotted country are vodkas, and they are tolerably good to put into coffee - which is my favourite drug, if you like to put it that way). I've said that to Muslims as well. And Sweden is a country where some of the Pietists (on the West Coast) practise the "orthodox dram" - if you are offered one dram, you take it and don't get haughty, if you are offered a second one, you say no thanks so you fool the devil (who thought he had you).

Brilliant work! Insightful, researched, and well done.

Nemo is a member of the church?

When discussing 1950s and 1960s Mormon intellectualism, you have to acknowledge Hugh Nibley. He had a huge impact on my father and his peers.

By their spreadsheet ye shall know them.

You know first time. I attended temple always wondered about the store in the basement. Jesus and the money lenders

A local family in my city in UT has been denied help from their Bishop because they are not able to attend church or pay tithing......

The church doesn’t pay anyone to upkeep the temple and church houses or historical church sites in Utah. They are all callings. So where else does the money go?

mind-blowing presentation! so much of this i had never heard about

Yes, Nemo. I would love more Lewis. He is brilliant! And you, dear sir,should read “The Screwtape Letters” assp. It is such a treat!😉

Thanks for the video. Lately I've enjoyed reading books that have inspired C.S. Lewis.

I would like to hear your reflections on Mere Christianity

The Mission of the Church is 3-fold 1. Proclaim the Gospel 2. Strengthen the Saints & 3. Redeem the Dead - Temple work is a necessity in Redeeming the Dead - Nemo, You being a Temple worker at one point would know this.

Fun fact: CS Lewis signed letter to friends Philomastix - or ‘whip lover.’ He was in sadomasochism, and wrote of how he wanted beautiful women to whip him. Sort of ruins the ‘dry Mormon’ argument.

I can understand C S Lewis stand on having the occasional drink . Anglicans in Canberra Australia had a group that was called the Bible Blanks and Beer bible study group. The blank was that the members all had vasectimies and of course the Beer reference was they were all Beer Brewers. The Queen likes a drink or two and she is head of the church

Here is what would prevent any hope of C.S. Lewis being LDS. The multiple contrasts that are impossible to reconcile between the LDS and the doctrine and practice of the ancient (pre-Nicene) Church would give Lewis no choice since the LDS has never, and could never, tolerate this position: "We are to defend Christianity itself -- the faith preached by the Apostles, attested by the Martyrs, embodied in the Creeds, expounded by the Fathers. This must be clearly distinguished from ... what any one of us may think about God and Man. Each of us has his individual emphasis: each holds, in addition to the Faith, many opinions which seem to him to be consistent with it and true and important. And so perhaps they are. But ... We are defending Christianity; not 'my religion'. When we mention our personal opinions we must always make quite clear the difference between them and the Faith itself." - C.S. Lewis, "Christian Apologetics", *God in the Dock*

I know this is a little off topic but when I was a Christian, I thought that the Chronicles of Narnia was infantile and full of shallow platitudes. Second, here's a fun little factoid: Utah was the first state to vote for the repeal of Prohibition.

Laura is so well spoken!

The WoW is the best thing about being a member.

Please let me know how to view how they claim their humanitarian work!!

tithing isn't mandatory but is strong encouraged in the Christian churches but it does like LDS teaching say that it is a privilege.

He wasn't born to a pastor. His father was a lawyer.

yes to book reviews of CS Lewis please

Sorry to be so late to comment-I find it fascinating that one of the most insufferable characters in the Narnia universe, Eustace Scrubb, practiced some Mormon tenets. About his family: “They were vegetarians, non-smokers and teetotalers, and wore a special kind of underclothes.” They also lived in a way that wasn’t really Mormon, like Eustace calling his parents by their first names. I think Lewis was poking fun at different fringe beliefs & practices, just as he poked fun at mainstream British society at times. But the fact that he singled out several obviously Mormon practices shows that he thought they were a bit silly.

Another interesting shift among GAs is not just quoting from C.S. Lewis and other Christian apologists, but also using other translations of the Bible in their talks. An example would be Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf who quoted from the NIV version of the Bible in his General Conference talk in 2021. BYU professors are also encouraged to use other versions for research purposes. A recent podcast had a BYU professor using the NRSV version.

PS EXCELLENT podcast!! ❤️

The Christianity of LEWIS is what are the basics that All Christians can agree on : that's what he was defending as Mere Christianity. The trinity is a foundational stone in the Church. It wouldn't even be tea totalling as tea is also banned . How you have any British members is crazy since tea is an institution there. I worked for a Christian book company called Revell. BYU used to order two different Christian books from the small wherehouse where I worked for a class each semester : as the one who pulled the order and put the Books in the box and then they were sent to BYU. I don't remember the two titles but on one order I put a Christian tract about Mormonism in there. My boss just said David you can't do that anymore but I didn't get in trouble either. So, Mormonism does this with other Christian authors too. One thing I will disagree with Laura is LEWIS arguments aren't outdated and Biblical criticism maybe strong in liberal circles but they are weak in Conservative scholar circles and we are pushing back on many of these ideas are based upon biased interpretations. He wouldn't deconvert again. But great video: C.S. Lewis is a great read for Mormons that threw out Jesus with the bathwater of Mormonism and became atheist: as Lewis found evidence that did convince him that historical Christianity is true: even if Mormonism is a counterfeit Christian religion that is a cult.

Always loved C S Lewis gobbled up Narnia as a child still love him today at ⁷4....

Mormons want to be called Christians, but they are not. There are fundamental differences. For instance, the concept of heaven and the afterlife is very different. Christians generally believe that salvation is by faith alone. One can't earn his way into heaven. Christians believe that the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for salvation. These are just a few differences. I'm not sure how CS Lewis would consider this.

Thanks!

1:38 of this shit?

Love this! Yes, please read “Mere Christianity” for a comparison and contrast of LDS doctrine.

💚

Church has been investing money in jews companies from D.C and Israel land....Partnership with bussiness men from american-jews community ..

Anyone else having a hard time finding her on tiktok?

I recently returned to the church, and came upon your RU-vid channel. A bit too dismissive and smug for my taste. I certainly don’t believe in blind obedience but you’ll never grow if you don’t try to be humble and follow the savior. You and your guest seemed to get hung up on words of modern apostles and the prophet. Remember they are fallible and imperfect. It’s funny how all the things you quoted I had taken completely differently until I watched your video. You approach them as simplistic and idealistic, and and I did not when I first heard them. Again, I’m not a blind follower, but when I hear the prophet speak, I ask myself “what can I get out of this to improve myself, or my relationship w God?” Lighten up, Nemo!! Signing off to find something enlightening on RU-vid…

Keecanda nemo you know is good for but for me i dont like to hear what he tries to mentioning for the false

I understand bishop is to look for family members but membebers should keep the commandment words of wisdom paying tithing go to church etc and the bishop recogonise his sheep with their need and you nembers should talk with him for need dont stay away only if you have personal problems without seeking your bishop

Historically speaking, ‘Mere’ Mormonism was underrated. 😌

Awesome video! Thank you!

Oh come on one half of BOM was the Bible. Mormon church never had one original thought

SortaMormon's enthusiasm for Lewis is so wonderful, that it is entrancing.

Yay! I love Laura!

I love the great divorce and the pickwick papers gives me anxiety

Harvard endowment is 50 billion but that's ok because... I dunno

View of The Hebrews. Mound builder stories and so forth. Um Zelph on the shelf???