What do we know about Joseph Smith’s relationship with Fanny Alger? Ep. 137

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Fanny Alger was the first of Joseph Smith's plural wives and, as such, is surrounded by a heckaton of controversy, rumors, and conjectures. But just how much do we actually know about her and her relationship to Joseph? In this episode we take a dive into what the historical record shows - and highlight what it doesn't show - about this controversial relationship.
Video transcript: bit.ly/3mn8aUq
An excellent summary of this topic from JosephSmithsPolygamy.com: bit.ly/3n1m9A4
Common questions about Joseph and Fanny’s relationship (JosephSmithsPolygamy.com): bit.ly/3yKsiTo
Playlist on our channel with a bunch of videos about plural marriage: bit.ly/3kRmP8x
“Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo,” Church’s website: bit.ly/2MITdwO
“Historical Accounts Referring to the Relationship of Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger,” by Brian Hales: bit.ly/2WLg3cE
“A Response to Grant Palmer’s ‘Sexual Allegations against Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Polygamy in Nauvoo’,” by Brian Hales & Gregory Smith (Interpreter Journal): bit.ly/2WJc6Vj
“The Prophet Joseph Smith and His Plural Wives,” Richard L. Anderson & Scott Faulring (BYU Studies): bit.ly/35kg6wN
“Did Fanny Alger have a child by Joseph Smith?”: bit.ly/2WMTjce
“Fanny Alger” topic from the Church’s website: bit.ly/3jFCbh5
“Oliver Cowdery, Letter to Warren A. Cowdery (Oliver’s brother), January 21, 1838,” via JosephSmithsPolygamy.com: bit.ly/3zJvOip
RU-vid interview with Brian Hales about Fanny Alger (Gospel Tangents): (Part 4) bit.ly/3DObDlC / (Part 5) bit.ly/2WRw14B
“Fanny Alger was Joseph Smith’s first plural wife,” by FAIR: bit.ly/3zL0qzR
“Question: Was Joseph Smith’s relationship with Fanny Alger an affair, or was it his first plural marriage?” by FAIR: bit.ly/2WS3mft
I HIGHLY RECOMMEND Brian Hales 3-volume work: “Joseph Smith’s Polygamy”.
See also, “Joseph Smith’s Polygamy: Toward a Better Understanding,” by Brian and Laura Hales.
NOTES:
- It has been suggested in the past that Fanny’s son, Orrison, might have been Joseph’s, but DNA research has since confirmed that that was not the case. Source: Ugo A. Perego, Natalie M. Myers, and Scott R. Woodward, “Reconstructing the Y-Chromosome of Joseph Smith Jr.: Genealogical Applications," Journal of Mormon History Vol. 32, No. 2 (Summer 2005) 70-88.
- “The Alger family stayed in the Kirtland area until September of 1836 when they left for Missouri. They must have stopped two months later in Wayne County, Indiana, because on November 16, Fanny was civilly married to Solomon Custer there. Her willingness to enter into a legal marriage in late 1836 soon after the dissolution of her plural marriage can be read several different ways. Some analysts believe Fanny’s actions indicate that her relationship with the Prophet was nothing more than a sexual tryst. They contend that a marriage, even an interrupted one, would have prevented Fanny from entering into another marriage unless she had come to believe that a marriage not recognized by civil law was not valid. However, a marriage performed by Joseph’s priesthood authority could be dissolved by that same power. Possibly she sought a separation to distance herself from Emma’s persecution. It is impossible to know what Fanny was thinking.” Source: “Joseph Smith’s Polygamy” (Vol. 1), by Brian Hales, pg. 123.
- Fanny’s parents and brother stayed in the Church and even migrated west with the Saints. Joseph’s actions in Kirtland didn’t seem to challenge their faith in him as a prophet of God. This reaction supports (in my opinion) the notion that the relationship between Fanny and Joseph was a marriage.
- Oliver Cowdery’s opinion that the Alger situation was a “dirty, nasty, filthy scrape” comes from a letter written in 1838 to Warren Cowdery. The original letter is not extant. The only record of this letter that we still have is a copy in Oliver’s letterbook. In the copy, the word “scrape” is overwritten with the word “affair” (not in Oliver’s handwriting). It is unclear how involved Oliver was in the copying process. Thus, it is unclear whether the original letter said “scrape” or “affair”. It is also worth noting that at that time, “affair” would not have meant “adultery” as it does in our culture. “Affair” would have meant “business of any kind” (1828 Webster’s Dictionary). For example, when someone says, “Get your affairs in order!” they are not referring to multiple adulterous relationships. All of that said, it does seem clear that in any case, Oliver did believe the relationship with Fanny was an act of infidelity.
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Комментарии : 319

@TheFormallyknownas Год назад

I have always thought that Joseph was being taught about the eternal sealings, and he was not fully understanding what he was being taught. He was being shown what would be required in the future and I don’t believe he fully comprehended what he was being taught. Joseph was a man, not deity. He was given instruction and being ridiculed for it, I can only imagine how difficult that may have been for him.

@AmandaPrice-h3x Год назад

Thank you for pronouncing her name correctly!!! Fannys brother is my fourth great grandfather. My great grandmother, his grand daughter Eva Pearl Alger lived until I was twelve years old and I was very close to her. I loved and adored her, an amazing woman who sacrificed so much in behalf of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The Alger family, except Fanny moved with the Saints to Utah. Settling in Southern Utah. My great grandmother being born in St. George, Utah. I myself being born in St. George Utah. Grandma Eva pronounced her maiden name exactly how you have. Not many other RU-vid content says it correctly. I thank you for allowing the family name to be remembered as it should be!! THANK YOU!!!

@lynphillips2109 6 месяцев назад

Thank you for sharing. Fanny's younger sister is my 3rd great grandmother. I just discovered today that I'm related to Fanny Alger. That gives me a different feeling about this and it helps. John Alger, their brother, was a good friend of Joseph Sr., and gave some information about what was in the Lost 116 pages. I think the Alger family were blessed.

@amandsprice281 Месяц назад

Clarissa, born 1830? My third great grandfather is John Alger.

@1961Tuber 6 месяцев назад

POLYGAMY WAS ILLEGAL IN THE STATE OF ILLINOIS. Why would The Church be commanded to practice this when it was illegal????

@RonPeolman 3 года назад

If the the transaction that Emma saw through the crack in the barn was a marriage ceremony then obviously she would have known they were married and since she didn't know that, it seems pretty obvious that the transaction she was referring to was some form of affection. Emma used the word transaction regarding the event and Oliver Cowdery called it a dirty, filthy, nasty affair. This really doesn't sound like kissing or holding hands.

@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад

Actually Emma never used the word transaction, McCullen did. There is a fair amount of evidence that the whole episode was only 2-3 weeks. McC later stated it was the ceremony itself Emma witnessed, if he is to be believed.

@michaelpeterson6174 3 года назад

Well not only is this highly misleading, it's not documented and it's not logical, either. First of all, this supposed barn incident is from a third hand account from nearly 40 years afterward, by someone whose word was often called into question. Second, as the author of this video pointed out and also gave the reference, McLellan indicated in another instance that this "transaction" was in fact a marriage ceremony. Both of her parents stated they consented to the marriage - they were approached first, and a faithful member conducted it. Oliver Cowdery was angry at the Prophet for other reasons and in a state of apostasy and about to be excommunicated from the Church when he made that statement. He later conceded that he had no such actual knowledge that it was anything other than a marriage. That is documented, too.

@BlueJayBirdSaint 2 года назад

“Transaction” sounds like kissing to me. Like “making out”. Though the word “intercourse” for sexual contact sounds like transaction too. As well as the expression “vows exchange”, for making the mutual promise of marriage. I think that a better approach for solving this problem, is analyzing the usage of the word in Emma’s time and place, in both slang and formal usages.

@brettmajeske3525 2 года назад

@@BlueJayBirdSaint There is also the other times McCullen described the event. As people are want to do, each description used slightly different vocabulary. Besides "transaction" he also used "ceremony" and "marriage" both of which are far less ambiguous. The 1828 Webster's defines transaction as 1) That which is done. 2) In the civil law, an adjustment of a dispute between parties by mutual agreement; a contract. So again according to Webster's a contract or agreement like in a wedding follows historical usage.

@michaelpeterson6174 2 года назад

@@BlueJayBirdSaint The most credible and popular dictionary of that time defined transaction as "the doing or performing of any BUSINESS" - it usually implied business with a legal basis, and there was zero reference there to a personal romantic expression. Nevertheless William W. Mcllellen clearly referenced in other writing (as already cited by the author of this RU-vid video) the near-surety that this was talking about a wedding. And yet still you have the fact that the word itself and the whole scenario was claimed for the first time by one man over 40 years afterward, with no first-hand contemporary account. And this coming from a man who was a confessed adulterer and serial liar and hostile to the Prophet Joseph.

@ensignj3242 2 года назад

It does bother me that Joseph married Fanny without Emma’s knowledge. However, Joseph was given a commandment that Emma refused to accept. I was not there and will not judge someone who is unable to defend himself. What I do know, is the Book of Mormon and other scripture are evidence that JS is a prophet. I wont throw out the baby with the bath water.

@thejorgerojas 2 года назад

@@mikkifrompreston4396 Because she later came to accept it. It was never easy for her. Took a while but she got there.

@zachbarnes2538 2 года назад

During the doctrine of polygamy, there was revelation given to Joseph Smith called the “Law of Sarah” in D&C 132 that states “if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second…then is he justified”. How is it ok if Emma never knew let alone gave her permission?

@Kristy_not_Kristine Год назад

It may not have been a marriage. It appears the Saints didn't understand what Joseph was doing. Look into the Law of Adoption.

@Kristy_not_Kristine Год назад

@@mikkifrompreston4396 because it wasn't a commandment from God.

@Kristy_not_Kristine Год назад

@@thejorgerojas that's incorrect. She never came to accept it. She believed Joseph, even if you don't.

@NinjaMaster1 Год назад

People who believe David from the Old Testament was a prophet still don’t give him the benefit of the doubt when he married Bathsheba. Joseph and David were in the wrong.

@StompMom5 Год назад

What most people don't notice is when an angel appeared to Emma she was asked if she would forgive Joseph's sins for going about it the wrong way. It was most definitely wrong and Joseph was rebuked for it

@nostoppingit7827 3 года назад

Watching @0:22- 1:06 I both appreciated you pointing those things out and excitedly thought you would give more in depth info. But then you went on to present the info like everyone else leaving out vital information. Leaving out the following: -The Levi Hancock's account was inserted by his son Mosiah who was a toddler at the time of the alleged incident. - Emma maintained until her death that she was Joseph's only wife - William McLellin was not only excommunicated, he fought against the church, robbed Joseph's family while he was in Liberty Jail and asked the sheriff for permission to flog Joseph but claimed that Emma confided something so personal to him after Joseph's death. And he told that story in his letter to Joseph's son in an attempt to convince him that his father had practiced polygamy. There is no credibility to the story, none! - Oliver told multiple people that Joseph had not confided anything regarding Fanny to him. -There is plenty of info to go off of - Fanny moved from Kirtland with her family in 1936 and married Solomon Custer that same year. Her first child was born in 1838 so unless they had longer pregnancies back then she couldn't have had a child by Joseph, which DNA evidence has proven. Any woman would have a hard time believing that Joseph and Emma could have maintained the close and loving relationship that they had until the end if Joseph was taking other wives behind her back. Joseph, Emma, Fanny or her parents never stated that anything had transpired between Fanny and Joseph. It is without a doubt the most preposterous and least credible of all the allegations.

@nostoppingit7827 2 года назад

@@jaykentucky6949 "How can I come to such a conclusion"? It's called research. As Todd Compton stated in an interview, there are many factors that contribute to how a historian views the information and the conclusions they come to. Not only was Compton a Mormon but Jedidiah Grant, otherwise known as "Brigham's Sledgehammer'' and second counselor to Brigham in Utah, was his great-great grandfather. Whether or not that played into how he viewed the information he came across and how much he scrutinized those making the claims no one can say. But the fact that he used, toddler at the time, Mosiah Hancock's insertion into Levi Hancock's journal to support the claims about Fanny speaks volumes to me. Let's look at what Mosiah Hancock, who was a toddler at the time of the alleged Fanny incident, inserted into his father's journal, it is as follows: "Joseph asked Levi Hancock, the brother-in-law of Samuel Alger, Fanny’s father, to request Fanny as his plural wife: "Samuel, the Prophet Joseph loves your daughter Fanny and wishes her for a wife. What say you?” Uncle Sam says, “Go and talk to the old woman [Fanny’s mother] about it. Twill be as she says.” Father goes to his sister and said, “Clarissy, Brother Joseph the Prophet of the most high God loves Fanny and wishes her for a wife. What say you?” Said she, “Go and talk to Fanny. It will be all right with me.” Father goes to Fanny and said, “Fanny, Brother Joseph the Prophet loves you and wishes you for a wife. Will you be his wife?” “I will Levi,” said she. Father takes Fanny to Joseph and said, “Brother Joseph I have been successful in my mission.” Father gave her to Joseph, repeating the ceremony as Joseph repeated to him." This is absolutely preposterous. If Joseph was trying to keep it a secret he wouldn't use an intermediary, thereby letting someone, unnecessarily, in on what he was doing. We are also being asked to believe that Fanny's parents just casually gave their daughter to an older married man as if it were no big deal. Then you have the fact that neither Fanny nor her parents ever made any record or claim that Fanny had been so special as to be chosen as the Prophets first plural wife. But most important is the source of the account which is as follows: "The sole detailed account of when and how the relationship began comes from Fanny Alger’s first cousin Mosiah Hancock (1834-1907). Hancock, who was a toddler at the time the relationship was discovered and not yet been conceived at the time it supposedly started wrote his account in 1896 as an addendum to the autobiography of his father, Levi Hancock. Although Levi Hancock had written regarding about his own life at the time in question, he had omitted any direct reference to Joseph Smith’s relationship with his niece Fanny. Mosiah, believing he had accurate information to fill this lacuna, did so. Autobiography of Levi Ward Hancock (with additions by his son Mosiah Hancock dated “Farmington Davis Co Co [sic], 1896”), 61-64-writing of Mosiah Hancock." There is all kinds of things wrong with that and not a single thing credible about it. The accounts we have of Fanny are laughable and lack any credibility whatsoever. Step back from any bias you may have either way and really look at the above and ask yourself if any of it is even remotely believable.

@prezp00nage24 2 года назад

One day this will all be cleared up, You are exactly right, don't let others bother you, just keep telling the truth and the real evidence.

@MichaelSmith-fq3pg 2 года назад

I'm quite firmly in the "Joseph is definitely not a prophet" camp. That said, I must admit this was a decent video which presented both sides fairly.

@mamabear9646 2 года назад

I'm curious what puts you in that camp.

@MichaelSmith-fq3pg 2 года назад

@@mamabear9646 Unfortunately, a RU-vid comments section isn't a good forum for that conversation. It would probably be quite lengthy.

@zrosix2240 2 года назад

@@MichaelSmith-fq3pg “a youtube comments section isn’t a good forum for that” more rational words have never been spoken

@josephsmith2371 2 года назад

I actually *was* a prophet though…

@BrianBadondeBo 2 года назад

@@mamabear9646 how bout Joseph Smith admitting in court to defrauding citizens in his area. Or just knowing anything about history in general, the LDS claims absolutely wither the more educated you become on the history of the Americas.

@enlightened4845 2 года назад

It's strange that the Church would use "we have no primary sources" for this event (Fanny and Joseph) so we can't come to any conclusions, when the Gospels are not primary sources themselves and...guess what...contradict one another! Yet the Church hold the Gospels as sacred scriptures and true! Why not hold the gospels to the same standard?

@colemanharris5950 2 года назад

Because then the business closes

@ronaldwinfield307 Год назад

The burden of proof goes to the accuser. Based on your video that burden has not been met.

@kenhilker2507 2 года назад

Wow... No first hand sources decades after the event Contains some contradictions... Sounds like Matthew Mark Luke and John to me!

@dkbradshaw 2 года назад

Can you do an episode on the book, Joseph Smith Revealed: A Faithful Telling: Exploring an Alternate Polygamy Narrative by Whitney Horning?

@Kristy_not_Kristine Год назад

Just finishing this book!

@tradne85 3 года назад

If I am understanding your video correctly, Emma did not consent to Joseph taking a second wife. Doctrine and Covenants 132:61 clearly teaches that her consent was required in order for the marriage to Fanny to take place (or anyone else provided she is a virgin and has not vowed to any other man). Am I to understand that the second marriage is thereby illegitimate? Mind you, while section 132 was recorded in 1843, the heading says that the doctrines and principles had been known by Joseph Smith since 1831, well before speculative dates of the Fanny Alger marriage. (Edit was to correct the Doctrine and Covenants citation as well as note about the heading of section 132)

@Sayheybrother8 3 года назад

Emma wasn’t aware of many of Joseph’s wives. I believe there recording her approving of two of the girls.

@biggentallen 3 года назад

@@Sayheybrother8 yes, and the 2 girls she approved of, Joseph had already married without her consent. He performed a fake sealing to trick Emma into thinking she gave him consent.

@germanslice 3 года назад

@@Sayheybrother8 Why are people worried about early church leader wives over 200 years ago when Solomon over 2000 years ago had over 700 of them.

@tradne85 3 года назад

@@germanslice and it lead to Solomon falling away into idolatry. Not a good example to defend polygamy with.

@seans5289 2 года назад

@@germanslice: I think I agree. One 19th century philanderer is hardly where we should start looking into the moral character of church leaders. The Bible is certainly full of examples of god’s servants behaving reprehensibly. Abraham, the father of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity and whose image was actuality included in this video, is recorded to have impregnated his slave against her will. Sex slavery and rape are behaviors I find to be inexcusable. Abraham acted inexcusably, and I have no reason to believe he was being guided personally by the universal arbiter of morality.

@tpbarron 2 года назад

Well done David

@michaelpeterson6174 3 года назад

This was very well done - thank you.

@leem3299 3 года назад

I appreciate you being as transparent as you were. Never thought I would see the day. Members can talk about this without church discipline now. WOW!!!

@ocdave4549 3 года назад

Lee, what is your roll here? Transparency? Your statement is false at best, an outright lie at worst. Most members have been conditioned to stay away from topics like this. Another attempt to lie on God's behalf. Disgusting at best, ? at worst.

@commentcrafter4158 3 года назад

@@ocdave4549 david could hsve lied and said that emma smith went along with the marrage, but instead he chose to tell the truth and say that she thought it was adultary, telling the naked truth when you have the chance to cover it up with a lie is called transparentcy and its the opposite of lying.

@ocdave4549 3 года назад

I m pretty sure this channel is monetarily supported by the church. Getting these young kids to dry clean the church's dirty laundry is not being transparent. The church leaders are so far away from transparency. Obviscation of the truth, ommision. Men of God don't do these things.

@commentcrafter4158 3 года назад

@@ocdave4549 you are making up and believeing conspiracy theories but you have your right to do that

@germanslice 3 года назад

Well Jesus talked in Parables to hide certain things up from the people and reveal them only to those who were of understanding.. God does not reveal everything all at once. Never has. He reveals it a little bit at a time.

@Dave-if5qj 3 месяца назад

Funny the LDS church does not remove D&C 132 as it makes It clear Joseph Smith Tought this doctrine

@ocdave4549 3 года назад

What about Helen Mar Kimble? "3 months shy of her 15th birthday" quote in the gosple topics essays. Ever read Helen's poem, made me cry, to think Heber gave up his daughter away like that in exchange for his family's salvation. She later stated that she agreed to the marriage but she was lied to about physically consumption by her father and Joseph. What kind of a father would do that? Joseph was 37, Helen was 14. Helen was messed up after all that, later saying it was divinely ordained, how twisted. How twisted for chuch leaders to keep this hid for years.

@thelatterdayarbiter 3 года назад

What about King David and the many wives he had, some of whom were already married, like Abigail and obviously Bathsheba? Not to mention he died in bed with a minor. Either way, it would seem hypocritical to justify the ancient past while criticizing Latter Day history. And if you try to quote the ces letter as your “primary” source, you might as well use mein kampf to teach me about the Jews.

@jamesmerrill613 3 года назад

Jacob 2-24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

@ryanadams5719 3 года назад

@@thelatterdayarbiter ………. The Bible grounds monogamy in the created order, ordained by God himself as a picture of Christ and the church…….Depictions of polygamy and concubinage in Scripture don’t overturn that fact……... Instead, they reveal the ugliness and heartbreak that accompany sexual activity outside God’s established boundaries………Explicit commands in Scripture teach the people of God that polygamy is wrong, the stories show it to be ugly - a hideous perversion of one of God’s greatest gifts…….From the muck and mire of Abraham, Jacob, and David’s broken families we are meant to see the beauty and goodness of God’s original design……. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the TWO shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24).

@thelatterdayarbiter 3 года назад

don't forget Abraham and Jacob. guess you can't justify that set of circumstance either. point is, EVERYONE makes mistakes. and if imperfect people shake whatever pathetic faith you have, then fine. I think it's terrible that Joseph didn't at least consult Emma about it before the incident happened. And should plural marriage in mortality be permitted again by God I pray it doesn't happen to me. otherwise, at least let it be revealed to my wife first beforehand. At least such continues the idea of eternal family unlike certain things that are trending these days.

@ocdave4549 3 года назад

Respectfully, Yes I don't have faith in anyone claiming to speak for God that is untruthful. At any time the leaders could stand up for truth, appologize to everyone who has been excommunicated just because they spoke up for the truth. The truth is often painful and will cost you if you stand up for it. The truth will stand on its own, it doesn't need me or anyone to lie for it. The truth is beautiful, love the truth!

@Mine4062 2 года назад

I see David, I click.

@brettmajeske3525 2 года назад

@@getharryonsax Actually it does not say that, clearly or otherwise. I quote: "Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..." This event is explained in "The Saints Vol II" an Apostle was selected to challenge the law before the Supreme Court as unconstitutional. It is only after having lost that Woodruff declared the end of the practice of Plural Marriage. The history is well documented.

@redfightblue 2 года назад

2:22 "Emma, Joseph's wife did not consent to the marriage" LOL

@redfightblue 2 года назад

@@russelm.nelson721 ROFL, thanks Rusty. That clears it up.

@biggentallen 3 года назад

Thank you for being honest about this. In my opinion this is just disgusting. I think it is indicative of Joseph's true character. Not telling his wife. Marrying someone for whom he had authority over such as a house maid. All of these things scream sexual abuser. I am disgusted that I ever defended or admired this man. He truly was an evil man.

@nostoppingit7827 3 года назад

No man should be put on a pedestal and no man should be blindly followed. It is amazing that people knowing that Joseph and Emma had a close and loving relationship til the day he died would believe that was possible if Joseph had been lying to Emma and taking wives (or cheating on her) behind her back. Fanny Alger never claimed any relationship with Joseph and Emma maintained until she died that she was Joseph's only wife. I would encourage you to read the fact I listed in a post on this thread that were left out in this video. The barn incident is an outright lie. Whatever Joseph was or wasn't, may or may have not done, he was not a polygamist. Do your own research.

@tifthetif6567 2 года назад

Lol

@Samuel-et7bd 2 года назад

An evil man who wrote a book about Jesus Christ that has led millions (including myself) to want to follow Christ, be kind, charitable and good? Yes very evil

@biggentallen 2 года назад

@@Samuel-et7bd yes. At the cost of the truth. At the cost of the dignity of those he abused and took advantage of. Of course he used Jesus to manipilate and control.

@Samuel-et7bd 2 года назад

@@biggentallen The truth is that Jesus Christ lives and atoned for the sins of all mankind. This truth is taught in the Book of Mormon. A book written by a good man and prophet of God. Believe whoever you want though. Because that's what it comes down to. Who you choose to believe.

@dukeofsahib4967 3 года назад

One question I have is why would God tell Joseph Smith to practice polygamy when it was against the law in Illinois? Doesn’t that fly in the face of articles of faith 1:12? 12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Why would god give commandments in which you can’t follow one without breaking another? Didn’t god say he wouldn’t give commandments that we can’t keep? 1 Nephi 3:7 7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

@DannyAGray 3 года назад

The video mentions all this happening between 1834-1836. I believe Joseph was in Ohio at this time, not Illinois. A quick check of Ohio law shows that Ohio says little about polygamy in their state until *1974*. Additionally, the US did not outlaw polygamy until *1890* and this was only in response to the church (in other words, the US government seems to have had no problem with it until they had a problem with the church).

@dukeofsahib4967 3 года назад

@@DannyAGray Well Illinois laws that were passed before the events of the Fanny Alger affair would beg to differ with you: “Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred.” Revised Laws of Illinois, 1833, p.198-99 And I think I should also mention that polygamy was still practiced in secret even after the government outlawed it and even after the manifesto on polygamy was written. How is that sustaining the law?

@michaelpeterson6174 3 года назад

@@dukeofsahib4967 Nice trap, but we're not stepping into it. The Prophet Joseph had sealing (eternal marriage, not civil marriage) authority given to him, and that transcends civil law - it's God's law, so this is definitely not as cut and dried, as "either or" as you are in a misleading way presenting it to be. Next fallacious argument - we're ready...

@Sayheybrother8 3 года назад

@@michaelpeterson6174 wow! I love to hear these types of responses. Just ask yourself if you would allow so many concessions to anyone else in history for any reason. It isn’t a sign of faithfulness to dismiss another’s mistakes only your desire to remain in the group that maintains the narrative,

@dukeofsahib4967 3 года назад

@@michaelpeterson6174 what’s the difference between the “sealing authority” that Joseph Smith claimed to have had and the “sealing authority” that every polygamist religious nut claimed to have had? Did the “sealing authority” of these religious nuts protect them from the law? I don’t think so. If you have multiple wives then you are a polygamist. You can’t twist your way out of that. A man who has multiple wives in a land which forbids it is a criminal and is in violation of the articles of faith 1:12.

@charlesnunno8377 3 месяца назад

What would it take to bring back Polygamy in the Mormon Church?

@joeladams8678 Год назад

The absence of first person accounts and other evidence, plus reliance on contradictory reports decades after the convenient finding a revelation back dated by BYoung leads me to believe the so called insights in this video procedes from a premise of guilt regarding Joseph - a theory in search of evidence built upon the false premise that Joseph Smith introduced and practiced polygamy.

@traviscavanah3909 9 месяцев назад

The law says the 1st wife must consent. So i am curious what this means. Is Joseph at fault for this or is Emma at fault for not consenting to Gods commandment? Perhaps Emma loses her exhaltation until she consents.

@zissler1 4 месяца назад

Prophets are the ones that reveal the commandments. Joseph smith could've easily been given one commandment, and then later change it. One evidence of this is that Abraham the prophet lies that Sarah is his sister, in fact the Lord commanded him to state that.

@1961Tuber Год назад

The Problem.... That Joseph was involved with a young teen girl living in his home AT ALL!! BTW..."Where there is smoke there is fire."

@Kristy_not_Kristine Год назад

and he wasnt involved, so it's a non-issue.

@1961Tuber Год назад

OF COURSE HE WAS "INVOLVED"...pants on, pants down, fly open...he was involved in "the transaction." @@Kristy_not_Kristine

@1961Tuber Год назад

You keep mentioning this lie.@@Kristy_not_Kristine

@1961Tuber 11 месяцев назад

Of course he was involved. Whether his pants were on or off, he was involved. "DIRTY, FILTY, NASTY AFFAIR"

@Hamann9631 7 месяцев назад

@@1961Tuber Actually, "scrape" was use by Oliver.

@DistinctiveThinking 8 месяцев назад

If it is not still practiced, then take out section 132 from DC for goodness sake, and put back in section 111 from the Book of Commandments, the original DC still honored in the RLDS church.

@adriennepatterson6113 2 года назад

Isn't there a chance that it's all just a bunch of gossip?

@ocdave4549 3 года назад

God doesn't need you to lie for him.

@thelatterdayarbiter 3 года назад

God doesn't need you to troll for your salvation either, but who's asking?

@ocdave4549 3 года назад

Sorry for the miscommunication, God doesn't need me or anyone to lie to bring forth his righteous purpose. I started out like you defending the church against anti mormon propaganda. I had no doubt in the church or leaders. I figured those speaking against the church were just misinformed but I was the one who was wrong. It's wrong not to disclose this info before someone joins the faith.

@ocdave4549 2 года назад

@@thelatterdayarbiter we are all on a journey of truth. I don't always get it right. Could I ask you a question. Do you think members have complete free agency over these issues? Have been kept in the dark for their own good? I'm not looking to debate anyone on these issues just have a conversation on them. "If we have the truth it cannot be harmed by investigation. Apostle George Q Canon. Truth will stand on its own.

@mcsq5899 Год назад

WAKE UP !!! Getting caught by Emma was the reason Joseph had to make up the whole polygamy story. Oliver Cowdrey was right.

@leem3299 3 года назад

So not a way to treat your wife Joseph. This doesn't rank amoung the good things he did.

@biggentallen 3 года назад

He didn't do any good things. He was an evil man. This is just scratching the surface.

@leem3299 3 года назад

@@biggentallen Yes, plenty of bad things. I see the founding of the relief society as a good thing he did though. What say you?

@ocdave4549 3 года назад

Sorry, respectfully hope for the day when we can speak to each other like Paul said, " speak the truth in love". The truth is painful and standing up for it will cost you. The church leaders may be more transparent today but only because it's being forced apon them. Forced transparency or a love of the truth? Love the truth, you can never go wrong with it.

@michaelpeterson6174 3 года назад

@OC Dave I do love the truth with all my heart, which is why I totally reject your shtick. I also dismiss your smug condescension. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the restored gospel of Christ are true, and all your internet trolling and bashing of our faith and attempts to deceive the unwary cannot change that fact.

@BrianBadondeBo 2 года назад

@@michaelpeterson6174 No, it's a complete lie, and it trivially easy to prove as long as you'e not hostage to your emotions.

@michaelpeterson6174 2 года назад

@@BrianBadondeBo For every 10 anti trollers such as yourself spewing garbage online, there's 5 in the last while who have come back and are sitting in sacrament meeting and now denounce the rubbish they used to say on these boards when they hated on our Savior Jesus Christ and his restored faith. End of discussion -

@BrianBadondeBo 2 года назад

@@michaelpeterson6174 1) if there's 5 people sitting in sacrament to every 10 people who're exposing their folly, who outnumbers who? I don't need your encouragement about the statistics but thanks for providing it anyways. 2) there's no hatred of Jesus, just a discernment of the actual Jesus of history vs the Jesus of your faith.

@michaelpeterson6174 2 года назад

@@BrianBadondeBo Your math doesn't add up, re-read what I said, I said, in effect, for every 2 that have left at least one come back short-term, and that's a darn good record. As for our Savior Jesus Christ and the Jesus of the Bible, they are the same. As for your denigration of our faith - please stop it, it's not Christian, it's not right, it's not nice, and it accomplishes nothing. I wish you well, but please get off these boards if you're going to continue doing what you're doing -

@matthewclaridge3793 3 года назад

I'm sorry I think it's dishonest to assume that the "transaction" was not something sexual. Poor Emma. I'm trying to put myself in her shoes. It must have been horrible! Love your work, From Sydney, Australia.

@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад

Why would that be dishonest? All of the admittly limited evidence seems to suggest it refers to the ceremony.

@matthewclaridge3793 3 года назад

Are you suggesting that they were married alone in the barn at night?

@matthewclaridge3793 3 года назад

I feel the word sealing is talking about the union being sealed with sex. But I'm happy to be wrong

@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад

@@matthewclaridge3793 No, I am not the one suggesting it, the person being quoted did. David specifically takes the time that the same person describes Emma as witnessing the ceremony in the barn. Why attribute additional meaning when the person being quoted, (who was not Emma) explains himself in latter correspondence?

@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад

@@matthewclaridge3793 Well in LDS culture the word sealing is a common synonym for wedding. I am unaware of "sealing" being used to mean sex in colloquial 19th century frontier English. When attributing meanings they should be based on the time and culture wherein the language originates.

@goodstory5890 2 года назад

As for ALL the history of the church that has been shared up to now, 2021, HOW can the members argue their “faith” over “material proof?” is amazing 🤪. Aloha 🌺

@yep_2431 2 года назад

They don't "do the opposite" they go with the evidence and have no reason sugar coat or ignore evidence.

@moronirubio2778 2 года назад

Omg all the efforts to explain and justify the unjustifiable. Why is “GOD’S” prophet and his church filled with the most filthy and dark stories? Not just a couple, thousands of dirty things. I mean… what a joke.

@seans5289 3 года назад

You mention how people on both sides interpret the data to confirm their bias, then give a source for viewers to use to gather their own data and draw their own conclusions. I’m curious, what is the opposite of giving the benefit of the doubt? Also, somewhat rhetorically, would you say your provided source is on the benefit of the doubt side or the other side?

@DannyAGray 3 года назад

According to Google, the opposite of "benefit of the doubt" is "assume the worst." That seems legit.

@seans5289 3 года назад

@@DannyAGray: Is there middle ground?

@michaelpeterson6174 3 года назад

No, the source he very legitimately provided is the towering scholar on the topic, Brian C. Hales, who has studied this subject for nearly 40 years and whose books had a 30-year research and writing period to produce - examining all first-hand documents and evidence and all other evidence and writings as well - on all sides.

@seans5289 3 года назад

@@michaelpeterson6174: Does this scholar believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet?

@michaelpeterson6174 3 года назад

@@seans5289 What a phony argument - I understand the premise. Have you failed to notice the ever-present, deep-seated, blind bias and animus of those who attack the character and prophetic mantle of the Prophet Joseph Smith? And plural marriage is merely the convenient bashing tool - because in its nature it's complicated, sensitive, and easily misunderstood. What's really happened is you've run headlong into absolute truth - as into a brick wall. The Prophet Joseph was indeed a prophet, and the history and facts of his life back this up - and that he was faithful till the end, a true servant and revelator of the Lord Jesus Christ.

@1961Tuber 6 месяцев назад

2:50 Well.....so Joseph did this on the sly .... just like he NEVER SHOWED THE PLATES TO EMMA....he hid his new "Revelation" from her. WHY????????

@leem3299 2 года назад

What Emma saw was likely sensual. But what if it wasn't? (Yet). What if it was only a marriage sealing? JUST a marriage sealing? Not a momentary fall to temptation that Joseph would regret. Oh no! A willful, planned, life commitment that had tremendous bearing on Emma going forward. Something Joseph would do repeatedly with or without her knowledge. Something he would press upon her, and declare her destruction (D+C 132) if she did not go along. Give this a moments thought. Is this better than common adultery? No, it is not.

@MerkieAE Год назад

1:05 the details are debated because the church pays scholars at BYU and FARMS to keep the debated. every historian who looks at this case without bias will come to the same conclusion, that he groomed and slept with Fanny then the marriage story was thought of after to calm the situation. its actually really gross and I'm surprised channels like this are bringing more attention to it from LDS audiences.

@TexMccloud 2 года назад

The cognitive dissonance lmao

@the1allahprays2 Год назад

I really like this channel, and think you do a good job of defending the religion. I must say though, collectively all the negatives and scandals surrounding Joseph Smith, it is much more logical that he's a fraud than not.

@SaintsUnscripted Год назад

Glad you like the channel! We have a number of other videos that address various topics surrounding Joseph Smith that we hope you'll check out 🙂