Want to help support this channel? Check out my books on Amazon: www.amazon.com/Will-Jordan/e/B00BCO7SA8%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share Subscribe on Patreon: www.patreon.com/TheCriticalDrinker Subscribe on SubscribeStar: www.subscribestar.com/the-critical-drinker
I love this channel, The Critical Drinker is my favorite RU-vid channel. I agree something has happened to almost every major villain except for Thanos in Hollywood now at days. A good movie villain was Mr. Glass in the first Unbreakable movie. Another good villain was Koba in the Plant of the Apes series and Megatron in Transformers. Have you notice almost of all the Villans now at days are all White Men while all of the Heros are diversity something to think about. Anyways please keep up the good work Drinker. P.S. I love the part where you say Don't Know.
Just so you know Hela was always more powerful than Thor in classic comics. No idea about the new ones, I don't read them. He won because Odin stepped in or someother way. He didn't over power her.
@@garysuarez9614 helsreach was based on a book, the fan series actually skipped and downscaled alot of what happend. Death of hope only had one ep and there wasnt much of a story aside from chaos doing chaos things.
In the first Matrix, we see Trinity being a badass, but eventually being outdone by the agents, and only just escaping. It gave me respect for her as a character, and also a higher sense of tension and fear of the agents. This isn’t rocket science y’all.
She's even killed at the end of Matrix reloaded, then Neo does bring her back to life but still it makes it more realistic that an Agent would ofc overpower her. Only Neo can really defeat them easily, especially in a gunfight. Morpheus barely defeated one until Neo saved him.
@Brimstone Writers had to adhere to the character "traits" she had been given in her stand alone before they could just get rid of her for the rest of the movie to avoid most of the reasons mentioned by the drinker.
Yeah but then they decided to show her over power him before he had to use the power stone to overcome her. It's the same third party interventionism the drinker just highlighted. Was nice though, even for a moment.
Kylo is just complex 30-year emo teen who has no motivation, logic, goal, character. He changes from good to bad and back, from ugly to sexy, from powerful to weak, from treating to funny constantly. He had some goal "destroy everything and built somthing new", but he didn't explain what new, why it's so important to even kill everyone, and he completely forgets about it after. He could be interesting with better writers.
@@user-xx6vy9ri8p This is a good explanation. Once taking the whole saga into consideration it isn't hard to see why Vader served the Emperor. At that point he had so completely destroyed his old life that service to Palpatine was the only thing left for him to live for. This eventually changed when he learned about Luke and he began longing for that family he had lost. Meanwhile, has it ever been explicitly stated why Kylo/Ben went running into Snoke's arms? What was his motivation for joining the First Order? One thing that TLJ actually did right was the implication that Kylo just wanted to do his own thing. Ben being a wild card, allied to no movement, a Grey Jedi of sorts, would've been more interesting than Vader 2.0.
Kylo feels more like the protagonist to me, He is young, Has emotional baggage, He is fighting aganist the practically invinciable protagonist and just in general seems like a perfect character for development.
Even the pirates films pulled this shit. There is a misogynistic scene where a boat doesn't allow women on board because they are bad luck. She tricks them and they all get slaughtered by the kraken. Elizabeth never actually has to fight against Davy Jones, probably because the writers didn't want the existential nightmare of pitting the perfect empowered woman against an eldritch immortal sailor grim reaper where they need to somehow come up with a way to make her come out on top against an opponent who can't lose outside of one specific flaw. The only reason Elizabeth gets a pass is that she's only a part of the story and all the important characters have their parts of the story revealed with equal representation. She's a perfect empowered woman, but Will Turner is a smart, fearless, and strong man. Sparrow is portrayed as the fool, but also has consistent moments of mindblowing intelligence against his enemies where the character really feels like he's just acting dumb to take advantage of his enemies having low expectations and thus preventing them from investing as much as they really should have against him. What elevates the Pirate's films is that the writing is really, really good.
@@terriblet7885 Yeah they had a token moment for a split second where Davy had to explain why he's allowed to hit a woman for 10 of the 20 seconds they fought, "You'll not see any mercy from me!". However I'll also mention that... Elizabeth did not become the pirate queen in At World's End. She stayed on land waiting for will Turner when he could next come to shore to meet their son Henry who was in the next movie Fountain of Youth.
There's no such thing as bad guys anymore, they are just misunderstood, and we get movies centered on them to help us sympathize with them and make them appear as good people.
@Dan Nguyen I was being sarcastic. I agreed with the video, bad guys aren't just bad for being bad. However, at least some bad guys would do bad things with the feeling that they are justified in doing so for one reason or another. A bad guy can be up to a point of view. I miss when a bad guy on a show was a bad guy just to be a bad guy, but I also do like occasionally showing the reasons for why they do things the way they do. However I think they do it to frequently these days, and they are desensitizing people towards it.
You do understand that equal doesn't mean that every person is a carbon copy of each other, also writing NOT in caps somehow makes your point make EVEN less sense
Considering how ridiculously powerful Rey is, the Disney trilogy should've made *her* the villain. It could've been a Negative Change Arc, as we'd see her fall to the Dark Side and Kylo Ren would evolve into the hero the story needed. *That* would've been *way* more interesting that what we actually got.
Yeah, agreed. Scarlett Witch in Wandavision could have gone the same way. Starts off a bad guy ( in AOU) then becomes good, then after Vision dies, completely loses it and becomes one of the biggest, most powerful bad guys in the MCU. But no, that would have been too much creative thinking.
Funnily enough, despite Disney's efforts trying to make Rey into a bullshit powerful Mary-Sue, many competently written, non Mary-Sue Star Wars characters easily overpower her. Rey ain't got shit on Darth Nihilus, EU Luke, or even Anakin.
This is one reason I LOVED Puss N Boots. Jack Horner has all the elements of a villain that ends up being more sympathetic. Instead, as the film's Jiminy Cricket described it, "You're an irredeemable MONSTER!" Death has all the elements of a scary villain, but he's more like a ruthless force of nature.
not really, since his entire backstory is him being jealous of other fairy tale creatures being more popular than him even though he has nice parents who have a prosperous company that they pass down to him
"If your antagonist starts out weaker than the hero, then what the fuck is there left to strive against?" - Possibly the most succinctly perfect and true statement about the problem I've ever heard. There are so many aspects to strength, and these days villains seem to have incredible weaknesses written into them.
This has potential when the antagonist grows along with the protagonist, they have a sort of an arms race, both getting more powerful, sparing periodically, sometimes one wins, sometimes the other, but both are aware that if they relent and not grow, their nemesis will win, so they improve. This is how it's done right.
@@Araneus21 Or you could actually make the antagonist the person who grows stronger learns from his mistakes and eventually overcomes the hero... It would probably be kinda pessimistic and depressing, but I would like to see something like that (if done right of course).
One of my favorite villains is a serial killer with mystic powers, in his first encounter with our heroes he gets his ass kicked, but gaining knowledge from this he instead of trying to use what he thought was his overwhelming power to instead outwit and out think the heroes in the end of the story however the heroes are able to foil his plan and the difference in strength in a direct fight hasn’t changed so we get the satisfaction of a stomp while the tension of a real struggle against a formidable foe
@@pan_kruk339 Kylo Ren did grow and eventually overcame Rey in their final fight. He was far more physical and dominant than Rey and had her on the ropes until leia interfered. Then Rey went with the dog move to strike him while he was in a moment of weakness and conflict, making her feel like the real villain
@Neil Brooks Actually it is possible to write an antagonist that's weaker than the hero, you then have to make them strive to be stronger than the hero. Or in the case of a villain like Lex who uses his mind to outwit and outmatch Superman. But we don't get that since a lot of these writers are hacks.
@Cat Egorical The problem isnt that Captain Marvel wasnt fairly accurate comics wise. In the comics Captain Marvel IS among the most powerful 'mortal' characters. The problem is that in the comics, she's mentally broken. Rogue stole her powers and mind, and recovering from that was a HUGE slog for her. it took her YEARS, and even then she wasnt really 'all right'. She struggled, and won through. In the movie, she STARTS a beast, but with a small memory hole. And doesnt have to do much to overcome it. The movie really wasnt bad, it was just....... meh. Edit: mortal, not moral. Thats a pretty bad typo.
Kylo is a better antihero than a villain I suspect. Still, I will note: a villain being dangerously unstable rather than cool and collected can definitely work as well (see Homelander), but it has to ensure that the instability is genuinely dangerous to others.
kylo killed han, which in itself would be villanious enough, but han being his father makes it even worse, and doing it when han was simply talking to him even worse still. kylo is a villain, is just that the trilogy tries to make you forget about these things for some reason
Yeah but Homelander is not introduced as the villain but as the main superhero. he slowly becomes the villain whichg was hundred times more interesting than this Kylo Ren bs,
@@dieterdietert7232 Mm I don't recall Homelander slowly becoming the villain. He's more a villain-in-hiding, and even then it's only for the very first episode. Everything from there on out just features him as the dangerously unstable barely-held-together psychopath.
The last really good villian I can recall was Anton Chigurh, in "No Country For Old Men". He never raised his voice or got angry the whole movie, and was absolutely terrifying!!!!
He did tho. When he's with Carla, he says "Call it" the second time just a little louder. It's the loudest he gets in the movie and even that is still quiet. Also I reccomend reading some Cormac Mccarthy if you like good villains, since he wrote No Country For Old Men.
You don't hate being lied to, you hate the fact that it's true. Women are children because as soon as you get that first bit of male attention at thirteen you stop growing as people and become solipsistic narcissists. You have one function and it doesn't require being conscious for it to happen.
Well then, my lady, do I have a series for you! It's called "The Expanse," it's currently on Amazon Prime, and they don't talk down or cater to anyone whatsoever. Everyone in that entire damn show, from the most scrupulous to the most evil has a rich and checkered history, along with awesome character development. And the evil guys don't skimp on the evil, either! I highly recommend you watch that show sometime, that is if you like (smart) sci-fi!
An essential part of alien was that the characters were basically truck drivers in space. They aren't meant to be soldiers or a threat to the xenomorphs. Ripley used her wit and knowledge of the ship to survive them and triumphed because her brain outlasted the alien's brawn. That is why we love Ripley.
This is what really fcuks me off ! because there are many examples of strong women overcoming threats in the movies. BUT a bunch of naive idiots who never watch any movies more than a couple of years old think they know it all.
With villains like Darth Vader, Hannibal Lector and the T1000, we were spoiled for amazing villains in our younger years. I'd almost forgotten how powerful a good strong competent villain could be. But they should be as truly iconic as the hero that has to face off against them. The T1000 was one of my all time top villains, because if you arent all in on the fight, you will absolutely lose and fast.
You missed something important about Darth Vader. When you mentioned his first appearance, we get set up for a guy that’s not f-ing around. I saw it in the theater when I was in elementary school. Darth Vader was the ultimate. It was so effective I didn’t realize until 2022 that he only had eight minutes of screen time in New Hope. Yep, eight minutes. And just a handful of lines, that’s it. In a film class last year we had to study New Hope and analyze every scene. Studying each scene I realized I wasn’t really seeing Darth much at all. It’s crazy that Lucas did all that character development with eight minutes.
@@biguy617 yes! It felt like Wanda EARNED that after all she had been through. Captain Marvel, not so much. I wanted Wanda to be the one to stomp Thanos into the ground! I love that he actually had a glimmer of fear when he faced her.
What's the gist of the film Unbreakable - heros are defined by the villains they fight who are usually their dark reflection. How can you take a hero seriously when their villains are weak, unstable, inept dishmops.
“Easily brushed aside when the script decides it’s time for them to lose” is the best articulated point about how disingenuous modern film villains have become. Villains are formidable, there is a reason why Darth Vader walks slow and it’s because he moves for no one.
We didn't know nor care in the original trilogy. He's Luke's father is the extent we figure out the history, and that's enough to make it work. The prequels took away from that instead of adding to it.
@@LemuriaGames Granted, the prequels were expanded on in some ways and retconned a bit in others, and eventually, Anakin Skywalker does become one of the most fascinating characters in Star Wars lore, but you're absolutely correct. For the purposes of what Darth Vader is, Anakin's story is not necessary beyond knowing he's Luke's father. He's so intimidating that it's easy to forget that he's very rarely the commanding officer at any point during the original trilogy. When he's not doing Sidious' bidding, he's on Tarkin's grounds, independent from the chain of command. But there's never any question that he's the most powerful person in the room. That's Vader's mystique, in my opinion.
The funny part is, had Kylo Ren *won,* that could have actually made things work more. Imagine a villain that starts inept but becomes a major force towards the end. Ya know, if the hero is static, make the villain dynamic.
I really thought during the second movie, they'd completly overhaul the whole franchise "killing the past" and exploring a new direction, where Kylo ends up convincing Rey to team up and build something new. A move where they leave the established motion of "good versus evil" behind, completing a saga in which balance might not have to be achieved by the constant war inbetween extremes but maybe something new... and then episode 9 happened and went so far back to fking basics they had to recycle the villain... Though contrary to this video, he overpowered Rey for like a minute, inbefore her character grew to the point she learns how to hold two one-handed weapons at a time.
The fact that so many of these terrible villains are portrayed by actors who have done excellent work playing roles in other projects proves the writing is definitely what matters most!
I think Finn was pretty interesting, but I still get your point. Rey could've been a great character, but she just started off with outrageous power and never started off weak the way Luke did. She never actually lost and never actually grew, and didn't really have much of an internal conflict either.
@@troy242621 I agree and disagree with your comment. I found Finn interesting in the force awakens especially his backstory and the way he betrayed the first order and he also had potential to be a Jedi knight, but instead he became a comedic relief in the last Jedi and rise of Skywalker, all of the potential Finn had was thrown out the window and he also needed to rely on other characters and kept getting his ass saved over and over. Ryan Johnson and J.J. Abrams fucked up his character and wasted his potential. (Edit: Also yeah Rey was also wasted and Kathleen Kennedy wanted Rey with no flaws and made her never go through trials and hardships and never made her struggle which made her uninteresting and made the audience question why were suppose to root for her, she had no flaws no personality she didn't go through any hardships or struggles which ultimately made her bland boring and forgettable.
Gul Dukat is one of the best and most complete villains to ever exist and was portrayed so well by Marc Alaimo. Gul Dukat, while evil and conflicted, thought he was the hero and saw himself as heroic. He was the perfect foil for Sisko.
Kylo becoming the hero would have been great. But still we would have expected more character development from Rey, cause she felt dragged by the plot more than anything else. Yet, yes, imagining a shakepearian tale of a doomed hero that killed jedis + his father (which is also an historic fan favorite) whom redeems himself to "save the galaxy" almost give me goosebumps. Plus what a material for future possible sequels : having a hero that's actually done too many bad stuff to be forgiven, and has to live haunted by what he's done.
This is what I want for Riddler in the The Batman trilogy. He's basically a Robin character, a poor orphan who is inspired by Batman, and he already gestured toward imagining he was Batman's partner. To see Paul Dano bring his Eddie Nash to redemption and truly team up with Batman, to join the side of good and finally begin to fight the right way, would be unbelievably powerful. Sadly this will definitely not be allowed to happen.
They really could have made a tragic character out of him, a la Jasper in secret of NIMH. Trying to wound/kill the big bad after already being struck down but trying to assist Rey as his last dying redemptive act, while whispering, "I'm sorry... for everything" then passing away. Is it predictable, yes, but worlds better than what we got
If we got to see Kylo's character development from a weak impulsive angry child that always loses to Ray over the movies to become a worthy villain who worked hard and sacrificed alot to become powerful to pursue his goals, then it would have been a wonderful villain arc. like he becomes stronger everytime he loses to Ray, and finally becomes the villain he strifed to be
I was on an elevator at a sci-fi convention. We're all on our way down to the late night parties, when the elevator stops, the doors glide open, and frickin Darth Vader steps on, turns to face the doors, and never speaks a word. The whole elevator went silent. It was one of the most surreal experiences of my life. Everybody *knew* that it was just a nerd in a costume, but it didn't matter. His presence was simply that *imposing*.
I met the real Darth Vader (Dave Prowse), and had no idea it was him. I was standing at the back of the room near the restrooms waiting on someone else on the floor, and this guy strikes up a conversation with me. We chatted idly for 10 minutes and eventually he bid good day and moved on. A moment later my friend rushes up to me from the floor and was like "Dude!" I had no idea. This was in the early 80s.
That's because it's more of an indie film that became popular over and above what was expected than a traditional Hollywood controlled blockbuster. Don't for one minute think that the powers that be haven't got the franchise in their crosshairs.
I'm using your videos as writing advice. Your way of explaining things has really helped me understand what traps to avoid, and how to provide a certain suspense that would validate the motivations of my heroes and villains. You might be a reviewer, but your complaints have a depth than modern journalism can't match. In short, thank you.
What happened to our villains? They're our 'heroes' now. The CW's Batwoman comes to mind as a specific example. So many of the new-generation "heroes" don't just have flawed personalities, they have the personality of an anti-villain ... or worse.
@@thomasn3882He’s right. Characters like Rey, Captain Marvel, ROP Galadriel, and Billy Butcher have similar mindsets to Anakin Skywalker in the prequels, except that the narrative validates them.
The thing is that kylo being an immature, ineffective child was a really good starting point for the character. They just chose to never address it and grow from there. They decided to straight up just ignore it.
Yah that's LITERALLY his defining character trait and they drill it pretty hard in the first movie. Ironically, being compared to Darth Vader here in this way is playing to what the original idea for his character was supposed to be. Course they fucked it up in the end but yeah... it's not like there wasn't a reason for it.
Instead of coming across as scary and unpredictable, Kylo Ren seems like a spoiled Goth kid with a glow stick. Adam Driver is plenty good enough to bring any depth to the role the makers had chosen to give him and I felt he was a great choice as an actor for the role. But the film-makers had a bizarre social agenda that was more important than everything else, even the profits. Thanks to perverse and misguided reasons known only to them, they chose to deliberately turn Skywalker saga into preposterously stupid films that will be hated by generation after generation of movie viewers. Compared to episodes 4 through 6 they are a slap in the face to the original vision of the wondrous Star Wars universe that George Lucas created. No one would be the least bit sad if every single copy of the Skywalker movies were put through a crusher and totally vanished from the earth.
Darth Vader : "Sister, so you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her too. Obi-wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark side then perhaps she will." Luke : *let's his rage take over* - This is why Vader is the most legendary bad@ss villain in cinematic history, even in defeat he wins.
*Tosses lightsaber* "I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." To Drinker's point, Darth Vader being an iconic villain elevated Luke's status as a hero.
@@wesleysmallwood413 as a legend. Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader are as well known as historic figures. Forever will old star wars be talked about and remembered.
Well the 8K versions will have new gender neutral dialogue. “Sibling? So, you have a twin sibling? If you will not turn to the dark side, than perhaps that person will.” Also, look forward to a future version of Empire with “No, I am your parent.”
Have to disagree with the drinker.. Vader does get back-chatted to by Boba Fett... and Vader lets him live, ok it serves a purpose - it shows just how dangerous Fett is to the heroes, but it also shows Vader is prepared to bite the bullet, be pragmatic, and recognize his men just aren't up to the job - he needs outsourced help that isn't fucked about upsetting senior ranks like members of a military outfit are. You need "A" grade bastards, who can think out of the box and focus on the job in hand.
I remember watching a behind the scenes clip where Lucas struggled for a while with what Vader could possibly say to unleash Lukes suppressed rage. Lucas might have a reputation for lackluster dialogue, but he struck gold there.
I just found this channel a few days ago and weirdly, you've been spot on about everything so far. I teach introductory film at a college and I just WISH I could show your vids to my college students.. but then someone would whine to my boss and my union would have to hire a lawyer... I guess what I'm saying is that although people *say* that college professors have autonomy and academic freedom, we don't. So there's that...
If not for the trinity of Georges writing, David Prowses physical portrayal, and finally James Earl Jones voice bringing out Vaders eloquent menace. I don't think Vader would have become one of the greatest Villains in cinema.
So basically if he wasn’t written, acted and voiced as he was, he would’ve been different and therefore potentially not as good? Thanks for that mate, what’s your next observation - that if your auntie has bollox she’d be your uncle?
It's like they think the Joker is so iconic because he's funny. So they make funny villains hoping it will have the same effect. Completely missing the point...that the Joker is the one clown you wouldn't dare laugh at.
“...The one clown you don’t dare laugh at...” IDK if you got that somewhere or came up with it but nonetheless that has to be one of the coolest lines I have heard in a fat minute
This is spot on. The thing that makes Joker a good villain isn't that he makes jokes and is funny, its the fact that he is a ruthless psychopath that sees all of the terrible things be does as nothing more than jokes to be laughed at.
As much, conversely, our civilization has bred a generation with no "struggle," so they've invented one in order to have sympathy given. You know, because they are empty.
@@therevelistmovement4683 ...Very, very true. They cannot handle not having a religion, so they have to invent one. Enter: the religion of “wokeness” hand delivered to their feet. And all they have to do is believe without question; adhere with militant ignorance; and like any religion, fight ‘till their last breath against any who dare oppose. ...All so they no longer have to think.
@@JeddieT Bear in mind, too, that THEIR faith is one which should be opposed, because it is a false faith. It is NOT organic. Yes, faith can be problematic, but it is usually out of a genuine misunderstanding and true ignorance of much, if anything, in the world. In some ways, it is like an unaware, innocent child; given time, it will learn. Even then, if you are up against the type of faith that does know something BEYOND itself and chooses to remain closed, it might just take a bit more of a struggle to reform it to see broader, but there is STILL a chance. However, with wokeness, it was bred from the echoes of inauthentic platitudes, a thickened shadow of nothing that was, from its very inception, meant to kill the human spirit. (Most other faiths "think" they are doing good, that is, until dumb people fuck it up.)
No, no... we didn't like Rey or Captain Marvel because we're sexist pigs. Come, let us flagellate ourselves incessantly, though we will never be pure and holy regardless of what we do. /s
this is why I end up rooting more for villains nowadays, a lot of them became the underdog. The roles are reversed and so is the effects of the characters.
Imagine this: Captain Marvel, interpreted by Emily Blunt. I'd watch that, because she can play the "though girl" character great! Doesn't even matter if the story turns out to be garbage, is she had even an ounce of charisma in her character I would've enjoyed the movie. Instead, we got a character whose only highlight is getting beaten by Thanos in Endgame.
@@mancodelepanto2696 Emily Blunt MUST join the MCU one way or another as a badass character. If you're not seeing it then go watch Edge of Tomorrow. And she's oh so beautiful... Just wow.
You should watch Run, Hide, Fight. Female protagonist that kicks predominantly male ass, but they set up her character and skills, and the baddies are not inept, she just outsmarts and outguns them.
A good edit to Kylo would be he would keep his entire mask on for Episode 7 and when Rey slashed his face we could see his eyes, making more mystery around the Kylo Ren, and explaining why Kylo didn’t freaking die when Rey slashed his face open.
i miss the villains like agent smith that can command the aura of a whole room and making you shivers when he said “Human beings define their reality through misery and suffering”
Well not all of them. I think people went for a more realistic sympathetic approach to villains. I'm ok with that and I'm ok with the occasional darkseid level evil character
Rey can swim in the Last Jedi. She grew up in the desert. But she can swim. She can pilot a boat in the Rise of Skywalker, in a storm that was supposed to be dangerous. Nope. Rey can do it with ease. Han flew the Falcon for decades. Rey fixes the compressor and saves them. Fixed the Falcon in a way that Han is impressed by, almost like Han couldn’t do it himself.
I'm going to go on saying this is all fine if Rey ever had to come to terms with her power. You know, with being a Palpatine and all. Let's say that the Emperor has had a secret connection to her for years. He's helped her out whenever she needed it, because her triumphing and coming to Exegol is in fact his endgame. When she finds out, she now has to deal with being a Palpatine. Her final internal conflict, instead of being "lol nope, I'm a Skywalker, bro," can be actually dealing with that fact and proving that she can be an independent character and show that her name does not define her destiny.
@@sethb3090 Yeah. Just imagine if she had said "Palpatine" at the end of episode 9. Or even "just Rey". Both would have been acceptable answers that wouldn't have pissed people off. It could have been her coming to terms with her heritage and then choosing to either accept it or leave it behind. Instead, she decides to pretend it never existed.
@@sethb3090 Palpatine is dead, period. Reviving him is 100% stupid and nonsensical, it dissolves everything that happened in the original trilogy and makes it meaningless. But Palpatine is really dead, he fell down a LOOOONG ventilation shaft, plus then the death star that he was lying dead on the floor of exploded. Nope, not coming back from that. But the writers team was creatively bankrupt, they did not know what to write, so they recycled the biggest villain that Star Wars had, making it even more ridiculous.
Maximilian the robot in the film the black hole was an intimidating menacing villain, there was nothing weak or conflicted about him. He was very vader like. soon as kylo took the helmet off his character was ruined, people had hope for snoke and they killed him off too, the message was more important to them than a great villain in the 3 films
Maximilian was like the dark, brooding enforcer reluctant to hear from his very creator. Dr. Hans Reinhardt. Himself being a cold, ruthless and cunning commander who did the most unimaginable things to his crew. Like Palpatine and Vader. Only to be found 20 years later by the most unlikely heroes.
When I watched that movie at the theater, at first I loved Kylo Ren and that was it until he removed the mask. I actually shouted PUT IT BACK PLEASE, PUT IT BACK! which provoked a huge laughter at the theater. Kylo changed from a psycho with Force powers to a whinny crybaby in that move, absolutely killing everything of value this movie had for me.
I'd rather see a weak woman overcome her shortcomings to defeat a stronger male character(Like cartoon Mulan) not a god woman beating a weakling "man" (Like in the Mulan remake)
Nope...no you wouldn't...you would complain no matter what the female character does...thats the game you guys play. You would just say, 'Oh, come on...there is no way that woman with no arms just KOed The Rock! What's this feminist BS!!'
This is why Alita was a better female hero. She got FUCKED up, and even needed help from her male counterparts (gasp!), which made it more satisfying seeing her overcome her enemies later.
If there's something I've learned as I continue to age and grow in this time period, it's that everyone who once strived for equality decided that it either wasn't given to them quickly enough, or that it simply wasn't enough. Almost no one wants true neutrality and true equality, these days. Everyone wants to be special and everyone wants to be treated differently. But rather than earn it, they feel _entitled_ to it because of their ancestry or the way things went in a relatively distant past. And unfortunately, big companies like to bend over backward to these kinds of people because they are - or were - the "unspoken minority". Give people an inch and they'll take a mile. 🤷♀
We need a movie where the Writers, Directors, Producers and other members who support them to be portrayed as Villains and the guy wins against them and makes them feel like they were the Baddies all along...
@@clydemarshall8095 Oddly, it seems to say exactly the same thing it said the first time I read it. More importantly, I relistened to the Drinker's comment to which you were responding, and now see my error.
@@MisterPuck This is going to be a bit of a weird pull but the TV show The Following was a great example of that. That show has its fair share of flaws but the dynamic between the main character and the main villain was electric.
Anton Chigrr from No Country for Old Men is the greatest antagonist in recent cinema history, in my opinion. He is capable, cold blooded as hell, but he also is a man who lives by some higher code than merely his own whims. The coin toss scene in the filling station, and the one at the end of the movie were epic.
One of the main problems from movies is that there are too many jokes in them you cant take anything seriously in it because every minute there is this stupid joke that is never funny you can have jokes in a movie but there is always so many jokes that like I said you can’t take anything seriously in a movie
The coolest thing about Vader in the first film was he was even an outcast by the Imperials who either looked down upon his supernatural beliefs or were just plain too scared of him to associate, leaving him truly isolated and working directly for the antagonistic cause with no other motivations. A true black knight character more than the typical evil general archetype.
My two favorite villains are Vader and Lechter. Both are calculating, intelligent, and refined. Notice Vader always addresses with rank and name, even those he kills. But more importantly, the character development shows what made them, and you develop empathy for them and want to see them redeemed. Harris accomplished it better in the books than the movies portrayed.
One of my favourite parts too. When he talked about the force in episode 4 and the officers ridiculed him, calling it superstition, and treating him an idiot. he went from a member of a highly respected, well known order, surrounded with people who shared (partially) his beliefs, to being completely alone in the universe and he did all of this to himself...
@@keithmarlowe5569 I found Vader and Lechter to be symbols of power and intelligence that inspired fear and still somehow they appealed to our sympathies. Villains Luke Tuco Salimonco (Breaking Bad) and Ramsey Snow (Game of Thrones) were straight up violent killers, highly intelligent and unpredictable. They're some of my favorite villains bc they don't project any sympathy whatsoever. You know they are killers, sociopaths that get pleasure from inflicting pain and chaos. The audience wants them far away or dealt with just to get their menace away from the main characters. A true villain isn't sympathetic at least to me.
This will blow your mind. But Darth Vader is in fact a death knight. He's even basically dead kept alive by technology. But he broke his vows, is cursed, and hates everything good because of it.
One of the best movie villain I know was The Operative from Serenity (2005) played by Chiwetel Ejioford. Very (very) well written and interpreted adversary with a clear motive, calm, smart, methodical, unshakable resolution and supreme competence. Very scary guy.
This is my favorite video of yours. Every word is absolute inescapable truth. And unfortunately, the more pampered society becomes, the more it becomes offended with, and the less flexible our stories become. We are headed toward a very boring inoffensive future.
Actually her weakness was that power limiter device she had on, which she could've very easily have taken off at any point in the movie had she known what it really was.
While I'm not familiar with the movie too much, just going off that excerpt, it could still be made to work: instead of having her one-shot him in the desert, have the confrontation take place in a city or other area where going full power would cause unacceptable levels of collateral damage, forcing her to lure him to a more open area before she can nuke him. However, he catches on to this and stops letting her lead him by the nose, taking a defensive stance with the intent of wearing her out. As the fight wears on, she's forced to confront the possibility of not being able to get a clean hit on him and has to start weighing whether it's better to stop him here, killing who knows how many people in the process, or to let him go for now, not knowing how many lives he might take before she has a second chance. While a superhero movie will inevitably choose to have him conveniently blunder into an area where she can beat him without any causalities, you can get all the psychological drama of "maybe she can't win" without taking away the ridiculously overpowered nature of the character. But even that's probably far too far for modern movies.
Funny you should mention it: His actor, Cary Elwes, played the EEEEEVIIIIILLLL misogynist main villain in 2019's revolting and unwatchable 'Black Christmas' remake- in- name- only. So, I guess it's started already!
As soon as I heard the, "Who talks first?"' Line I felt like I was watching one of those Judd Apatow flicks with awkward dialogue. Then when Starkiller was revealed it hit me that I was watching a fucking remake...
Some of those negative traits, like insecurity or lack of self-control, can still work for a villain, so long as they're handled in a way that still threatens the hero. The problem is that these traits are used more as a way to make it easier for the hero to win. Or, a villain might have one or more of these traits, but keep them well-hidden, and the hero can't win unless they manage to uncover that weakness. Some tropes and traits aren't good or bad in themselves; it sometimes just depends on how they're used. More often than not in modern movies, they're used poorly and only serve an agenda.
One of my favorite villains of all time came from a game called Titanfall 2. His name was kuben blisk. He was a leader of mercenaries hired to deliver a payload to a superweapon. The entire game you're trying to stop him. In the end, the only reason you "beat" him is because he accomplishes his task. He delivers the payload and finishes his contract. He doesn't lose to you, he just leaves the equation because he gets what he wants.
Did anyone even bother to ask RJ a "logical question" during production of Episode 8? Such as "how the phuck do you even call this a legitimate sequel to Episode VII?!"
@@thefilmwhisperer1105 TBF Episode 7 makes no sense either. Why the hell are we still doing rebels vs the empire with death stars, no jedi or republic 30 years after ROTJ.
This reminds me of John McEnroe's "controversy" when he said it as it was, that women and men compete differently, and when asked where he would place one of the Williams sisters, he said about 700th in the mens division.
Kylo Ren's whole "conflicted angry dramatic teenager trying to be something he's not" thing isn't even bad. That's actually a pretty fleshed out flaw to have, especially knowing what his past is. But considering it was used to lift Rey up instead of turning Ben into a compelling character, it just makes him look pathetic.
Yeah, he wants to be an evil dude (maybe because that's what Luke painted him as anyway), but he almost falls to the light side constantly. This could have made him a very unstable compelling villain who commits exceedingly horrible acts because he wants to fuel his own self-loathing and prove that he totally is this evil dude, while he actually isn't at heart. However, because he forms no threat (like Vader did in ESB) he doesn't feel like someone with his own agenda and history. He shouldn't have lost so much to Rey, it's a disservice to both their characters.
@Mister Twinkles Right, he could have been turned into an interesting character. I almost hoped that after the middle of EP8, when he kills Snoke, then his red guards with Rey's help. Make him either understand his errors, and come back to the bright side, or be colder and smarter, understanding than he's now free to go his own way as a Galactic overlord. . But this never happened. Sad...
Kylo should have been the "unstable mass shooter" type and Rey the unfortunate--but compassionate--server of justice, bearing witness to an imploding aimless young soul.
Interestingly enough, the first Thor movie strikes a perfect balance by having Thor be emotionally immature but stronger than Loki, who is more composed and knows how to manipulate things in his favor. It's more a subtle relationship between the protagonist and antagonist.
I like Loki, but he gets owned by basically everyone. Think about it. When was the last time he actually won a fight? Yeah he just about beats Cap in the first Avengers movie, gets out thought by Black Widow in the same film. Then what? He gets outsmarted and and fought by virtually everyone after that. Beaten by Sif, Dr Strange, Valkyrie, Thanos, even Jane slaps him with no repercussions. Total let down of what could have been a great character. I don't even want to watch the TV show.
I actually think the childish outburst thing could have been scary had it been done right. It could have made him dangerously unpredictable, but they would have had to make the outbursts overwhelming to everyone around him, especially the hero.
Thank you for this video, it is very educational for aspiring writers, who unlike them care about writing good character especially the antagonist. You added good examples and it was right comparation with bad examples. I hope you will upload new videos with similar topics.
@@Nimbereth why would making a man a big intimidating asshole who eventually gets overcome by a woman but not all at once not feminist, woke and socially just? We sure it’s not just bad writing?
@@luxinvictus9018 - That’s the worst possible thing to be in entertainment. It’s better for something to be enjoyably terrible, than to just be terribly mediocre.
So true! I remember how I felt reading the red wedding and the absolute dismay I felt as my favourite characters were eviscerated.... almost threw my kindle at the wall! what it really did was make me fear for the rest of the characters as they were now genuinely vulnerable in a way I'd never felt reading fantasy before, and every obstacle overcome from then on felt like a genuine achievement (and relief)
I've always felt that it's because "heroes" are now the self-insert of the writer. One who often has an agenda. The villain then becomes the embodiment of what the writer hates. So, instead of Darth Vader we get whiny, screamy, tantrum-throwing pseudo nazis. Instead of Zuul, we get a sort of hateful and socially awkward incel. We get white men mansplaining their evil plans to the heroic women who have been given only x0.77 of the respect he has been given all their lives. All of which makes for really boring villains.
In the end, villains cannot be stronger than the hero, because the hero IS the writer, and is the embodiment of everything the writer despises. The villain must be beneath him, because he is the hero. Burdened with divine purpose and unquestionable moral authority. If the villain was given the chance to be stronger than the hero, or more just, or morally superior, then that would expose the faults of the hero, and hence, the writer himself. Something which, of course, cannot be allowed, as this might break the writers perception of himself, and force him to see his own failings and mistakes. If the writer has this flaws, then he is not perfect, and that is just beyond even being dreamed of. So, the villain must be brought low quick, and must be kept there. Evil, yet weak, and wrong, and despicable. A mewling thing to be stepped on and trampled by the hero... the writer himself, personified within the story.
Yeah, but she was clearly a mere hench(wo)man with aspirations far above her abilities. If she'd been a main character, then perhaps not even John Wick could have defeated her plot armor.
John Wick 1 did it even better. Perkins was shown to be quite an effective and cunning assassin and John still beats her, albeit not without a serious struggle.
In Ragnarok, I think the whole point is that Hela was basically too strong even for Thor, and that part of his character development was knowing when it would be worth to admit defeat, run away, and live to see another day. I also liked him realising that he would not be able to defeat her with strength or raw power.
Haven't seen it, but in the comics, Hel (Hela) essentially can't be defeated because she is the goddess of death. But Thor gets around her again and again by outwitting her. He never takes her on in battle because the only possible result is his death. He could "kill" her again and again, but as death itself, she is essentially indestructible. Kill her and she just rises again.
but then it was totally ok to straight up murder mystique, Charles to not seem like he was grieving at all, and because it was done by a woman (never-mind it made no sense to any timeline/canon/etc to do).
I was watching some reactions of a anime called Redo of the Healer. One of the Antagonists is a extremely evil princess and despite what she did being completely indefensible, everyone freaked out that she wasn't let off easily and got punished SEVERELY. So even if it is a female villain, simps gonna simp. Can't say sympathize without saying simp I guess!
Not unlike myself, I consider you a wonderful raconteur. Easy to listen to. May I say thank you from the bottom of my heart, if I had one. Your pal Al. Peace.
Same as we're want to escape "boring" reality Ask ourself Why we create fiction world just to recovery our mental health because of "perfect society" we call it, men why we need imagination in the first place i rather life in Grave or place of welcome people non exist.... God is right we really are mistake
The funny thing is, you can write "weak" villains good too. Look at Prince Zuko from Avatar the Last Airbender, Zuko basically gets his ass kicked by Aang the entire first season however he's shown as young and arrogant but honorable and admittedly has much to learn. So as time goes on he trains and gets better, every fight gets harder and harder for the heroes to the point where if he didn't wind up switching sides, he probably would've been the most dangerous fire bender alive. Good enough writing can bend the rules if it wants to
Eowyn from "The Lord of the Rings" is a female character who scores the greatest single-combat victory by any human in the entire saga. Not one of the male heroes scores a one-on-one win on par with defeating Sauron's right hand man, the immortal Witch King (admittedly, she had help from Merry, but while his heroism made victory possible, Eowyn still had to actually go out and win- she had to kill a freaking dragon before she could even take a shot at the SOB). And she does this all while protecting the body of King Theoden. Protecting the body of a your fallen king from capture and mutilation was the most noble thing an Anglo-Saxon warrior could do, so she is excelling in a variety of traditionally male roles all without magically making the men incompetent, sacrificing her femininity, or coming across as a "Strong Female Character". And she was written by a deeply conservative Catholic man with zero interest in any feminist agenda. Oh, the delicious irony.
@@blakejohnson3864 I think the commenter meant "Strong Female Character" in the sense of the modern cinematic stereotype of a strong female character, hence the scare quotes.
@@blakejohnson3864 you must not have got the context. Nowadays people write female characters just to be female characters, with no real depth. Eowyn’s line was in response to the WitchKing, who said that no man could kill him
It was because he was a deeply Catholic man that he fairly treated the character and women well. No irony in the least, Catholics very much respect women considering our respect for Mary as an example and Eve both.
@@fractalelf7760 Perhaps I should have clarified, I meant ironic in comparison to the currently widespread narrative that the only way to make a female character "strong and capable" is to make her an aggressive, hyper-macho, disagreeable jerk who is always openly declaring how she "don't need no man" and is fighting "the traditional patriarchy". The irony is that a man who "should" be a stereotypical woman-hater in the minds of the Pink Haired People wrote far more nuanced and inspiring women than anything in their feminist screed.
I like what Jordan Peterson said about how we see the villain as the necessary shadow in all of us, so a lame villain is actually insulting the audience
If that is true, we come up with nonsensical villains when we are incapable of seeing the evil within ourselves (which our modern self-righteous and self-absorbed movie audiences are).
Villians actually posses most things a Good man should be when it comes to mindset. Focused on a Goal, and try to get it with logical reason and power regardless of what people say. New villians are as if they are mocking modern men: fat middle aged Man no true goals, Huge anger issues and Constantly complaining about what they want and not going through with it because our hero is the woman and woman are good strong and capable. Weak villians is whoever is writing these lame villians is a personal attack on Men in my opinion.
We live in a world where people are rewarded for barely trying, these movies are the wet dreams of those people who don’t want to hit any bumps on the road or an obstacle but gain everything.
It's cheaper to hire people without talent whom will do ANYTHING it takes to get a job way above their paygrade. Movies used to be High level dining - an event for those to attend, now it's just McDonalds.
Correct. No reward based on merit. They just want it handed to them. Batwoman's new season apparently opened with a homeless girl finding the suit, putting it on, and having special abilities. No back story tie-in, no training or discipline, just unearned abilities. That or they cheat, we see them cheat, and the system hands them the trophy anyway. You're about to see a lot of people quit playing in many ways.
I know this is about film, but maybe this is also one of the reasons I love Brandon Sanderson's stories. His villains have armies, or god-like powers, or *literally* are that world's god, or are even wildly more socially adept than the main protagonist. It makes their defeat seem impossible until it happens, and it's the most amazing triumph.
