After seeing a lot of people accuse Anakin Skywalker of being a Mary Sue, I decided it was time to get to the bottom of this, and resolve this debate once and for all.
Anakin: looses his arms, legs, skin, hair, mom, wife, friend, mentor and freedom Rey defenders: MARY SUE!!!! Rey: looses nothing Rey defenders: If you call her a Mary Sue you’re a sexist
The people calling Anakin a "Mary Sue," also call people "Nazis" without even knowing what a "Nazi," or a "Mary Sue" actually is. To them, it's just a word with a negative connotation.
@@wolfrainexxx Their the brainwashed low iq people who thinks their in all arguments always automatically right, so they dont even google what the word means, when just try come up with stupid counter argument, that Anakin is also mary sue, when I myself always google what new english word means, when english is my third language, so I can have better understanding what people say in videos without getting annoyed by too many words I dont know what they mean.
@@jout738 Yeah, but it's more likely these people aren't "cultured," in that they assume everything, and research nothing. When I hear a Chinese phrase that doesn't make a bit of sense, or a Mexican phrase that seems bizarre, I actually look it up, then have to research it... because sometimes the phrases are rooted in Culture, and don't have easy explanations. In this case, the American phrase "Mary Sue," which has no simple answer, but does ultimately mean, "Protagonist to whom the plot bends to without rhyme, or reason."
@Nogent Anakin was only good with technology in Ep 1 because he grew up around it and built it, it was a skill he reasonably acquired due to his skill.
@@SAGAtheGRAY he didn't. In ep. 3 he kept his right arm after the fight with obiwan. His right arm was already cybernetic due to loosing it to count dooku in ep. 2
I would have done it. But since I'm a German born Canadian who lived in Russia for many years and returned to Canada, it would have been snow instead of sand.
13:48 Actually, the subtext of this scene is Anakin describing his childhood. He dislikes sand because it reminds him that he was a slave to Watto on a desert planet. Had he been surrounded by snow or fire or forest, he would've hated those instead, because the point is that, unlike the pain of his childhood slavery, Naboo is peaceful and soft and smooth, the exact opposite of Tatooine.
Keep in mind too, that anakin was about 18 or 19 when he married Padmé; and was an emotionally stunted and repressed boy who was suddenly given alone time with the woman he was crushing on since even before puberty.(Which is kind of gross now that I say it out loud.)Of course he was going to be awkward and wooden.
That incident with the Sand People is probably the closest Anakin got to being a Mary Sue, as Padme just dismisses his slaughter as a human flaw, because she likes him so much. You could say that Padme could see the good in him, but I think she was also scared of him and his instability and used her political skill to de-escalate him. That's pretty far from being a Mary Sue!
@@blakebridges1030 You were misuing sneer qutoes in your original post and should've written Rey "Skywalker" Palpatine instead if that was your intention
Calling Anakin a Mary Sue only started after people ridiculed Rey for being a textbook Mary Sue. It was done mostly by Rey fans just to defend themselves and now it's just their coping mechanism.
The original Obi-Wan was the chosen one. He brought balance to the Force, when he defeated Vader on Mustafar (Lava World, Revenge of the Sith, I don’t count Disney Star Wars as Canon) and Anakin was the “false messiah” as you put it, but, in my opinion, he (as with most messiahs) had a series of critical moments that turn him from a herald of an uplifting exhalation, and becomes a dark destroyer (or, ‘fiery-accuser) to punish society’s (the Emperor) ills.
@@brockdavid After the events of Mustafar, Darth Sidious was still about. I'm pretty sure even if Anakin didn't turn, order 66 would have happened (although less effective, obviously)
well there is alternative ending of "Star wars episode 3 game" where Anakin kill Obiwan on his high ground and Palpatine. but still would not counted as Mary Sue.
@@whitegriffin3772 yes like i said he wouldn't be counted as Mary Sue as no one actually like him in the movie...the Council of Jedi caution with him being "the chosen one", Sith want to Manipulate him. the one who love him is Padme Mary Sue is a character that loved by everyone and even Villain would give the character an Easy time in a fight in a stupid way for the Main character to win.
The people who call Anakin a Mary Sue are dumb as rocks, TBH. A Mary Sue is someone who easily overcomes any adversity and is liked by everyone without reason. Rey fits this description perfectly, while Anakin does NOT. - Anakin is selfish and very arrogant - Rey is selfless and humble. - Anakin makes most people he meets uncomfortable or uneasy, Including Padme, the jedi council and even his future master, Obi-Wan - Whenever Rey meets someone, she is their best friend within 2 minutes. - Anakin talks about his inner darkness, ends up slaughtering an entire village of people, a temple of jedi and children, diplomats and thousands of innocents - Rey talks about her inner darkness and ends up killing her evil, emo boyfriend. - Anakin, the chosen one, stronger than anyone else with the force, faces off against a sith lord after 10 years of jedi training and loses both the battle and his arm - Rey, an untrained girl, faces off against a sith lord the day after learning that jedi are real and defeats him. - Anakin falls to the dark side of the force - Rey resists it without much/any effort. - Anakin is unable to save his mother, while also being the indirect cause of his own wife's death - Whenever someone close to rey dies, they are resurrected by her plot-armor. - Anakin fails to kill Palpatine - Rey kills Palpatine. These 2 aren't even in the same solar system.
In the novelization of Episode III, Anakin needed to be a Jedi Master to access a piece of the Jedi library. He thought the key to saving Padme was in that section. So not only did the Council personally insult him, but they also denied him a chance to save his wife.
@@geg_otmopo3 Ask the Jedi Master on the council for help with the wife he was ABSOLUTELY NOT supposed to have? Don't forget, he did go to Yoda for advice and all he got was silly New Age Buddhism about "letting go."
@@PhilosophicallyAmerican Yes, Obi-Wan is dogmatic as hell but nearly not as much as Yoda. Also he and Anakin in ROTS were MUCH closer than just a master and a padawan, basically brothers. Pretty sure Obi-Wan wouldn't snitch on Anakin and he probably already knew about him and Padme.
@@geg_otmopo3 Fair points, but at the same time I understand why Anakin would not wish to take that chance. Additionally, Kenobi is not much more powerful than Anakin in Episode 3.
What makes Anakin’s story even more tragic is that his personality actually got better during the clone wars. He goes from being an impatient padawan with a bad attitude, to a Jedi knight who has a better attitude and a little more patience. Plus he was a good master to Ashoka. He even showed restraint in the original 2003 cartoon that came out. As a Jedi Knight I mean. I’m not saying he was perfect but still he did show good character development. Still all of that character development was dumped into the lava because Anakin let his fears get the best of him. I will admit though the Jedi council(including Obi-Wan) was a bit critical on Anakin at times. So there was fault on both sides.
The Jedi Councel has done a lot to make Anakin as fucked up as he was. Yoda telling Anakin to let go of his emotions is not a valid response to someone who is grieving the losses of the ones he cares about like his mother, it isn't a healthy way to cope. Also remember in the Clone Wars where Obi Wan AND the Jedi Councel decided to gaslight Anakin into believing his master died? What about the time the Jedi Councel decided Ahsoka had to be put on trial for a crime she didn't commit, that led to her leaving the Jedi order aswell as leaving Anakin. Then the Jedi Councel denied Anakin the rank of master, because they were too scared of him. Sheeve Palpatine has always shown Anakin kindness and acceptance, which is why Anakin chose him over Mace Windu. The truth of the matter is. The Jedi Order where so corrupt and blind from politics that they allowed Sheeve to manipulate Anakin into joining his side.
@@ronantheronin3521 yeah very true. Only thing I disagree with you on is the whole master thing. I think Anakin needs to wait a little bit longer before he becomes a master. He’s a great warrior but there are some things he needs to learn before becoming a master. Even though he matured during the clone wars, he still lets his emotions take control of him. I would say make him a master around his late 20s or exactly 30.
@@Steel-101 I took the offer of the seat on the council but not a rank of Master to be a test of Anakin's pride and patience. He was denied the rank of Master, and he got visibly frustrated and vocally critical in the moment. The response they were likely hoping for was something along the lines of "If you do not think me ready for the rank of Master, then I should not have a seat on the Council". But the fact that the title and rank of Master wasn't granted to him being what set him off likely communicated to the Council that he was still too impatient to be considered a Master.
@@ronantheronin3521I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the relationship the council had with Anakin. The council acting officially can't afford to play. They once said Anakin was dangerous, and they were absolutely right. Look how much damage he did because he got too attached to the wrong person. It s not Padme's fault, but Anakin's attachment to her meant the genocide of thousands of people, and later on millions. This is a direct result of Anakin never developing the qualities of an actual jedi. He could act like one, but he didn't have the mental and emotional grounding. This would have been okay if he acknowledged that and stopped putting himself in positions where that internal maturity was *necessary*, but this man was in charge of thousands of lives and acting like a teenager sneaking around. If you don't see what I mean, ask yourself, would Obi-Wan have fallen for the same trap? No. Obi-Wan proves himself capable of self-reflection, self-control, forethought, humility, etc. These are the qualities Anakin learns to imitate but not apply on his own. Would ahsoka have fallen for it? No. We all know she wouldn't have. Because Ahsoka is a jedi. Why does he get mad when told he'll be on the council but not a master? Everything we see tells us other jedi see it as an honor, but a duty and a responsibility. He evidently only sees the honor part. And he's too immature to understand that giving him the rank of Master would be ridiculous. They're not persecuting him by not promoting him. Being a jedi master at 25 would be absolutely laughable. He s way too young. And by his reaction, he proves right then and there that he's not qualified. An actual jedi, even if they were mad or embarrassed, would reason with themselves that expecting a promotion they haven't earned is arrogance and self-absorption. Anakins problems are exacerbated by Sidious's grooming. But that doesn't change the fact that he shares the responsibility because he never actually applies the lessons of the Jedi order. He wants the power, the prestige, to be somebody. But he's not willing to do the work and he has very little humility. If being a jedi was so intolerable, he could have left. Every Canon in star wars makes it clear the Jedi are not chained to the temple. If he felt unsupported, unloved, belittled, he could have left at any time and become and ordinary citizen. The Jedi order would not have pursued him unless he started doing dark side nonsense. He didn't do that because he *wanted* to be important. Why should he, who is so powerful and special, act like a random everyday nobody? I mean, he could have gone back and rescued his mother, you know gotten her off of tatooine, but no that wouldn't do. There are lots of people to blame for Anakin turning out the way he did, mostly himself and Palpatine. But if the Jedi were to blame for anything, it's not being hard *enough* on him.
@@rachelclark6393 While I agree with most of what you said, I disagree with the "not being hard enough on him" line. They said Anakin was dangerous from an early age and treated him as such throughout his formative years. Maybe had they actually been kind to him at some point, he would have been more accepting of their training. When you permanently keep somebody at arm's length, you can't be surprised if they eventually end the relationship.
@Oliver Higgins That's because Anakin is actually her dad. Sheev Palpatine is Rey's Grandfather and therefore Rey is a Palpatine, not a fucking Skywalker. You're not just part of someone's legacy just because you say you are.
A mary sue is someone who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws. That doesint line up with Vadar at all. Vadar fucked up so bad that he got the love of his life killed and became number one to the most evil man in the galaxy.
@Twisted Yoda I said he was number one to the most evil man. That evil man is the Emperor. I didn't say anything wrong but i could have phrased it better. What would be more accurate would be to say he became the puppet to the most evil man in the galaxy.
@@billfred9411 Second two most evil man in the galaxy as Darth Vader had that tiny amount of light and goodness still bruning inside of him that both Padmé and Luke saw.
@@danielolsson7134 Geez i guess im old and am using out dated lingo you guys dont understand. Being someones number one means you are his right hand man. I was saying Vader is number one to the most evil man. That evil man is the emperor.
The story of Mary Sue from a mythological perspective is essentially the absence of struggle and adversity. Anakin’s story, at least if you limit it to the prequels, is a literal tragedy. He sacrifices everything and gets nothing in return, and the worst part is that it could all have been avoided. Sure, Anakin was more gifted than any other but he was equally cocky and arrogant which was the cause of his ultimate fall from grace.
Anakin: - lost all four limbs - lost a duel to a sith lord and his former master -put into a suit that is constantly torturing him to keep him angry and quite powerful -grew up a slave -actually trained to become powerful -lost his mother. Rey No-Skywalking Palpatine: -Was just bored.
@@splitsong7368 That's a good point, because I was thinking about the way these sequel fanatics act.... They have a lot in common with Anakin, especially young stupid AOTC Anakin.
Hi how are ya : l Lol, what a paradoxical statement. My taste in movies is only shit to you because of your differing opinions. Learn how opinions work, kiddo.
This is actually why i love the prequels so much. It’s basically one movie split into 3 chapters. It may not be everyone’s cup of tea but you can’t deny the great character development and overarching story
Even at the end of episode III… when he actually gets into the suit… THE FIRST THING HE SAYS is “Where is Padmé? Is she safe? Is she alright?” And it is at this moment you actually see that he was nothing more than a weapon… and that the Emperor didn’t even grant him his wish of saving Padmé… just used him.
@@cocodojo No it was just a misconstrued prophecy (that no one ever talked about until Anakin came into the picture). Its more like- "He will bring balance to the force, but you don't wanna go down that road." But then he did. c'est la vie
Let me get this straight, Anakin, one of the greatest force users ever, loses a lot of his abilities and never reaches the pinnacle of being a Sith lord nor a Jedi master. Loses his hand, his legs, becomes disfigured, and has 100% of body burned. Anakin loses everyone he loves, including his wife, all the while, trying to save those he loves the most. How... in... the... hell... is Anakin Skywalker... a Mary Sue?
Palpatine designed Vader life support system to be shit and his suit to be bad for combat, it was meant to keep him down just enough that if they got into a fight Palpatine would have the advantage.
@@imo098765 I like the explanation for how awkward he fought in the original movies and how it didn't line up with the super acrobatic fight style in the prequels.
Anakins personality was shaped by his childhood. He loved his mother who protected him as a slave and quickly went from a slave to a Palawan and was told he was special. Any kid would grow an ego and become overconfident, rash, temperamental which we see as a constant pattern of behavior through the trilogy which makes SENSE. Now with Rey she was abandoned by her parents and had to learn to salvage. JJ tried to show off her salvage skills and whatnot but it was literally a small bit, Rey should have also been reluctant to accept her force sensitivity and have a hard time connecting with people. She should have been distrustful of everyone and not accept any help from anyone due to the pain of being abandoned as a child and feeling that if she were to trust anyone she'd be hurt. Could have had Rey steal the Falcon and run away when they met Han. She should have been someone damaged just like Anakin who had issues with his temper and overconfidence. Rey should have been more introverted, distrustful, skeptical, blunt and sly with half truths to everyone not letting on much about her. People point out Rey's deadpan face but that is what a Mary Sue is. They don't have personalities since they are flawless so they can't be shown as angry people or depressed etc. Rey should have been a very prickly person and hard to deal with but who slowly opens up to Han and Leia. She should have been tempted with Kylo Ren who would try to bond over how it feels to be betrayed and Kylo could have manipulated her to believe to never trust the Jedi as he was betrayed by Luke and Rey believing him and slowly falling for the dark side of the force. We could have had a moment where she and Han develop a bond and at the same time she is bonding with Kylo through the force bond they had or whatever and her switching to the Dark side. But then when she sees Kylo kill Han she'd fall to anger even more and attempt to kill Kylo and lose and be abandoned by Kylo who leaves her for dead after all the promises of making her his apprentice and giving her a place where no one would abandon her and instead she could be the one in charge and the second movie could have been her recovering and Luke perhaps coming back after hearing of Hans death and helping Rey master the force to avenge Hans death out of regret his best friend died because he had abandoned the fight. I'm writing a damn script here but I made this up as I went and pretty much sounds 10x better than Disney's shit not to toot my own horn but honestly even 10 year old me could have wrote something better tbh.
honestly this does sound a lot better, like, genuinely the only thing i'd change is (at least specify) that luke didn't still attempt to kill kylo over a *fucking nightmare* seriously, the sequel trilogy has a lot of flaws, but i will always think that *luke skywalker* attempting to murder his padawan and nephew over a nightmare is easily the worst part.
This got me thinking, what would it take for Anakin to be Mary Sue? * Anakin is established to NOT be a podracing pilot. He is taught the controls to the podracer immediately prior to the race, as Obi-Wan can't race due to an injury right before the race. He wins the race, handily. * Anakin does NOT crash land inside the droid command ship and accidentally torpedo the main reactor. He attacks from a perfect location that no other Naboo pilots thought to use. * When he has his nightmare of Shmi in pain, he immediately leaves in the middle of the night. He uses his force sensitivity to land his ship right outside the Tusken village, walks up and demands they give him back his mother. He admonishes them for their bad behavior and forces them to take on a better merchant lifestyle. Shmi is brought back to Naboo where Padme helps her get the medical attention she needs. Anakin goes Geonosis, saves Obi-Wan, blows up the droid factory, and captures Dooku. Padme falls deeply in love with him for everything he has done, and says she wants to marry him, even if it is a secret. * When Padme reveals she is pregnant, Anakin does NOT keep it a secret. He tells the council and says that he has no choice but to leave the order, for the sake of his wife and child. They immediately grant him rank of master and tell him he is on the council, and that the order must change to accommodate him. * His nightmares about Padme's death are different. He realizes, with the help of his mother, that the visions are false and implanted. He discusses this plot to infect his mind with the council, who all stand in awe as he reveals that it is Palpatine. Palpatine is arrested, but in the process kills many Jedi, Anakin bests him easily and takes him in to custody. The Republic does not become a galactic empire, Luke and Leia are raised by two loving parents. The end. (I am probably missing many things, but this is a general overview)
Anakin: *Trains* = Loses a hand, gets his ass kicked. Luke: *Trains* = Loses a hand, gets his ass kicked. Rey: *Doesn't train* = Beats the shit out of the antagonist Edit: If into the replies you will go, only pain you will find.
Also.... Anakin: Doesn’t train, is 9 years old and has no experience with piloting = Perfectly pilots a Naboo starship and destroys the Droid Control Ship. Luke: Doesn’t train and has only piloted a space tractor = Is able to pilot an X-Wing better than all the Rebel pilots and can use the Force to make a 1/1000000 shot - WITHOUT a targeting computer. Rey : Trains for 2 years and with ancient Jedi texts = Gets the shit beaten out of her by Kylo, tries to exile herself, gets force life drained by Palpatine and literally dies of exhaustion.
@@ReySkywalker2 Only AFTER beating the crap out of Kylo Ren 1-2 movies prior. And killing Snoke's bodyguards. With the actual end of the fight is Rey leaving him alone in the middle of the ocean. And Luke was established to be a good pilot and marksman in ANH. His ship is also a similar model to the T-65 X-Wing. Anakin, is literally Force Jesus. His reflexes are beyond any human, this allows him to react and maneuver better than ordinary pilots.
@@ReySkywalker2 Also: Rey with no training: *Learns force techniques perfectly without practice, defeating a Dark Side user (A FRIGGING SKYWALKER) the first day she held a lightsaber*
Our One True Emperor clearly you didn’t click on the video to watch it. Her setbacks are merely fleeting moments that leave no lasting mark to her character, therefore she doesn’t develop.
You shouldn't phrase it like that. You make it sounds like all fan fictions are bad. I've read fan fictions that are better than the sequel trilogies that someone got paid to write. For clarification I've only watched episode 7, that was a boring and frustrating movie to watch.
It seems like there were good stories in the prequels for those looking for them and with a bit of generosity for all the awful dialogue. The sequels you can just tell they didn't have a story to tell
Watch the video "George Lucas - King of Wooden Dialogue", it might add to your perspective on the dialogue a bit. I've personally never had an issue with the dialogue, but maybe that's because I watch the two trilogies as a sort of modern cultural mythology, rather than a story that's grounded in our world in every way except the sci-fi stuff. I know it's Apples and Oranges, but they're all still fruit: I also never had a problem with the seemingly odd dialogue in stories like Gilgamesh, the various Shakesperian plays, Brave New World, A Clockwork Orange, Eraserhead, Twin Peaks, and probably others that aren't coming to me yet. I think the merit of dialogue delivery is relative to the tone you're going for in whatever medium you're telling a story within, and the overall way the setting/world in said story operates.
"I know it's apples and oranges, but it's all still fruit" I'm gonna remember this next time some penishead says "Um like you literally can't compare (x) to (y) because (superficial different between x and y)
the fact that people actually hold this take is genuinely hilarious considering we see Anakin lose fights multiple times and is very clearly and obviously flawed to the point that he literally becomes a villain
Another thing about the "we don't grant you the rank of a Master" scene is that it's not only about Anakin's arrogance, but his desperation to save Padme. He thought that he could find relevant information in the Jedi archives that was only accessible to a Master, so that scene must've felt like almost getting a chance to save his lover until it was once again arbitrarily, in his mind, taken from him. This would obviously push him even more towards Palpatine who was claiming he could help Anakin with this matter.
Anakin isn’t a flawless person, obviously, but I’m gonna list the negative traits I’ve noticed. He’s possessive, arrogant, hot-headed, impulsive, and too trusting towards people who are obviously manipulating him. All these negative traits usually end up with him paying for it. In Phantom Menace, we don’t really see his flaws because he’s still a little kid and the movie mainly focused on Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. However, in the second and third movies, we see his flaws as plainly as a neon sign. He paid for his arrogance and hot-headedness by losing his hand in the second movie. Then, we see him pay for becoming evil by being burned in Mustafar and left to die. The sycophants clearly never watched the movies before. If they did, they would know Anakin’s story.
I think the issue is that Rey never really failed at anything. It’s always nice to see your protagonist fail at something because it makes the plot more interesting. Anakin loses all his friends, all his limbs, and he literally falls to the dark side. He’s failed on just about every level. Luke also fails in the Empire Strikes Back. Luke is like Anakin. He’s very hot headed and he runs face first into danger too often. And so when he goes BY HIMSELF to face Vader, he gets his arm cut off and thrown down a garbage chute. He also almost dies in Return of the Jedi. If Darth Vader wouldn’t have saved Luke, he would’ve been killed by the Emperor. I can’t tell you a single moment off the top of my head where Rey gets defeated, or is tempted to join the dark side. That’s what makes her a boring character, not cause she’s good at a lot of stuff
Failing also makes the characters more relatable. We see their struggles, we relate to them, and we get to see how they learn from their mistakes and climb out of it and leaves an audience inspired. This is what Disney failed to do with Rey. She had no struggle so she had no relatability.
Yeah, she beat Snoke 's ass without getting tossed around like a ragdoll, and Ren without Leia's help and she also beat Luke in a stick fight without having to cheat with a lightsaber. She wasn't killed by Palpatine. She got things so easy. Sure.
anyone that says "you aren't ready to have that conversation." is really saying "Im ready to ignore any logical evidence you try to introduce in to the conversation."
She frowned cause she saw her script was terrible and it was so bad she couldn't even shed a tear, it surpassed into complete mental shutdown and she blanked out.
Ashoka had a sense of humor, flaws (ie being insubordinate, prone to error, ect), and most importantly: GREAT WRITING!!! It’s the reason why Clone Wars Anikain is such a chad in comparison to the movies.
One aspect about Mary Sues that is rarely talked about is that the world treats them with more importance that is justified by the story. Anakin being the chosen one in fact makes him less of a Mary Sue, because it explains why so much importance is assigned to his role (and the importance doesn't prevent other characters from treating him with frustration and disdain). Rey isn't considered to be the chosen one, but both the heroes and the villains assign a lot of importance to her simply because she is the main character of the trilogy.
Taken as a slave from birth. Doesn’t know dad. Mom dies. Loses love of his life through his own mistakes. Gets cut apart by his only father figure and burned so badly he could no longer speak or breathe on his own. He’s a Mary Sue the way I’m a tragic and brilliant antagonist.
B/c they dont actually know what a Mary Sue is, they just sort of have a vague idea from criticisms of ray, so they incorrectly tried to apply it to Anakin.
@@pete3011 That's exactly what it is. They only note that Rey is "strong" and then somehow equate her to Anakin cuz he was strong too -- ignoring every other characteristic of a Mary Sue, and every other characteristic of Anakin. I think anyone who equates the two either hasn't seen the prequels or was too young to remember them.
This actually made me appreciate Anakin a lot more than I ever had. I was never a fan of the prequels but, wow, I hadn't really given enough thought to his arc. And the more reviews I watch, the more it's cemented that quitting an hour into this first sequel Disney put out was the absolute right choice.
I think the perfect counterpoint to Rey is literally just Ahsoka Tano, a character who is incredibly well written, is a strong female character, grows throughout her story, and has to actually learn from others to become a better and stronger person. There's a reason why most people unanimously love Ahsoka and Rey is a huge battleground.
@@gogetac2r You mean that person who was in a cameo in episode 8, but not doing anything useful over some quibble or something and only could be bothered to give very vague clues to the identity of a codebreaker, which ended up causing more problems than it resolved?
Yep. In the Disney sequels, we can't show women ever needing to learn anything, especially from a straight white man (yuk!!), so instead, it's Rey who winds up teaching Luke Skywalker a thing or two.
I don’t really like the other prequels but revenge of the sith always gets me going on some existential crisis. Because of basically growing up on watching the clone wars series, I was very familiar with anakin and his story. To watch him fall apart gets me on a spiritual level. I would say anakin is one of if not the best written characters in any movie IMO. He is a fallen angel.
A Jedi that doesn't win anywhere near all her fights, but is willing to sacrifice herself to save others, like when she thought off general grievous to save the younglings
Anakin was the noughties superhero. For a teenager growing up full of angst etc he was a damn good and believable characterisation. It's why, even now, that character is infinitely more loved and regarded than anything that came since.
10:49, yeah he deserved the rank of master, as a padawan he went above and beyond to prove his worth while being held back by the order itself,completed damn near every mission with ob1 while he was his apprentice then went on to become a general in the war and damn near single handedly winning the war for the republic and also he was only going for master this hard because he wanted access to the restricted section in the archives to save padme after yoda turned him down, and after what happened to his mom I don't blame him.
I don't recall seeing Jar-Jar's execution. Head on a spike, floppy-eared noose, crushed, burned, shot, drowned, impaled, lightsaber sushi, whatever. And that seems like a flaw to me.
@@pwnmeisterage Jar Jar was intended to be comic relief, but he was too over the top. Lucas wisely muted his wackiness and appearances. You know? Accepting fan criticism without calling us -phobes and -ists.
Oh yeah. There were some great ideas in there, but they were hampered by George Lucas not being good at writing dialogue and his tendency to get bogged down at points. If someone competent had come in to help clean things up, those movies could've been masterpieces
I don't think The Phantom Menace plot was a good idea, you had a never before seen Republic and powerful Jedi Order but the movie was wasted on Naboo and Gungans. The other 2 were flawed in execution rather than concept, definitely agree
@@ReySkywalker2 judging by the fact that you are responding to several different comments, making little to no valid points. And then whining about it to other people. Yeah I'd say you look p salty rn.
if you boil it down to it..... where exactly did anakin SUCCEED with anything he wanted? .) he wanted freedom from slavery for all slaves: he traded one master for another and there are still other slaves .) he wanted to save his mother: his mother dies days later in his arms .)he wanted to save his wife: his wife dies during childbirth .) he wanted to bring peace and unity to the galaxy: ends up the slave of a dictator .) he fights count dooku: loses an arm .) he fights obi-wan: he loses his legs and ends up more machine than man .) he tries to capture luke: luke escapes .) he tries to turn luke to the dark side: luke refuses and ends up turning vader to the light the only time he succeeded was when he tried to save luke from palpatine that´s it
Another point to Anakin not being a mary sue on the whole pilot thing. He was actually given a rundown on Naboo systems by the pilot of the ship they initially escape Naboo on. Right as they are getting to Corusant there is a scene of him talking to the pilot who tells him "You catch on quick". Now yes this is for a significantly larger ship than the fighter he flies later but most of the controls should just be scaled down and less luxurious options that it was probably even simpler for him to understand. Combine that with his experience and presence in the Force and no wonder he did as well as he did.
also, don't forget he worked for a junk dealer and literally stripped and rebuilt ships/droids on tattooine. If you look into someone in real life named Jesse Love, you can see similarities. He was racing cars at almost the same age as Anakin. obviously ships are different than cars, but starships also have com-navs and droids do a lot of the actual work.
Anakin literally lost a limb, his mom, and eventually his wife. All being consequences for his mistakes. The dude’s whole story is how he became Darth Vader. Anakin is full of character development. Rey is nothing but corporate corruption.
And then lost all 3 of his other limbs and set on fire by lava and forced to live the rest of his life in a cumbersome, restrictive, and extremely uncomfortable suit he needs to stay alive
@@cidiose how is luke a mary sue? he wouldve died in anh if han didnt come back and shot vaders tie fighter, in esb he walks into a trap on bespin and gets his hand cut off, and in rotj wouldve died if vader didnt kill palpatine lol. how td is he a mary sue? hes also not liked by everyone, in anh the bar alien starts a fight with him, jabba laughs at him when he says hes a jedi. in esb yoda doesnt like him much either.
Anakin failed as a Jedi and fell for the dark side and had to be saved by his son, so no. And let's not forget that he has weaknesses, especially sand.
Yea but didn't you know Rey failed to beat kylo in a single fight in the 3rd movie after beating him multiple times in the first 2 movies in both combat and Jedi tricks without any training what so ever. So clearly she must not be a Mary Sue.
The typical definition is "character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses." The whole character of Anakin is nothing but weaknesses and flaws.
Drinker, for some reason, the analysis offered in this video has stuck in my mind over time and I've found myself reflecting on some of the points you made. I find that description helps people conceive of and see things that they could not before. Your very apt descriptions gave me new appreciation for the Anakin character and story arc. Just got through watching the video for a second (or third) time. If RU-vid had a "Second Like" button, I'da smashed it.
Anakin is an example of how good but troubled people can be driven to great violence without the right level of support and with the righ amount of influence from the objectively evil. He's more a cautionary tale against radicalism by ISIS than a Mary Sue
Don't forget the fact that Anakin had 10 years of training inbetween the first and second movie, and then three years of constant warfare inbetween the second and third. Meanwhile Rey was a master after 1 day of doing nothing
Not to mention: He had a Padawan and learned, that she was HIS responsibility. She was like a little sister to him and she adapted many feats of him and even some flaws (sometimes impatient, not thinking everything to the end). And when it came to Ashoka, he never let anyone do harm to her. I still can remember two incidents, where everyone said, that he should let her go and it is hopeless, to find her. But he didn't gave up, because he loved her (as friend, little sister and padawan)
@@Anthyrion I didn't mention Ahsoka for the sake of keeping It just with the movies, as bringing in third part material would force me to Include stupid programmable lightsaber and force skills from Kylo when talking about Rey, which I refuse to do
@@voicingdragoon7 Yeah, the idea of downloading knowledge from others kind of pokes a massive hole in things. If you can download ability, what's the point in training?
That’s where the Kathleen Kennedy films miss the mark. The Force is supposed to be extremely difficult to master even for those strong with it. It’s not Harry Potter magic, but that’s how Rey fans explain her instant mastery of skills she never knew existed: “She’s a prodigy.”
Wouldn't Kylo be the Karen here? He throws temper tantrums when he fails and violently lashes out to those officers who disobey or questions his orders.
A Brilliant character dissection!!! 👏👏👏 I think in prequels, George Lucas's ideas outstripped the execution...I can see what he was trying to do with Jar Jar, but FML!!! At face value, Jar Jar is annoying, but he could've been the biggest k**t in the galaxy!!! I love how Lucas sets up a character flaw, and through the Arc tears it open wider an wider until catastrophe!!!
Anakin is a great character with a good redemption ark. I also also liked the actor and - controversial opinion - didn't hate the sand line. Yes, he didn't get the best of dialogue, but compared to what we get these days it was Nobel price worthy literature
@bodd boward to be real, it was said that Anakin never won a pod race before then, despite various attempts. He probably learned a lot from those failures and definitely took in a lot of junk his boss was throwing out. . As for building droids, fixing things is literally his job, so it makes sense that he can do it. . As for his success in the space battle, he literally just blindly stumbled into that victory like the child equivalent of Jar Jar Binks
@bodd boward was it implied that during the race it was first time Anakin riding a pod? He's a powerful force sensitive and probably trained how to ride that thing. And it's not like he built robot from scratch, he probably just assembled it from different working parts he found, not a hard task considering he was working at mechanic shop. So yeah, I call bullshit on at least two of 3 accusations.
InfernosReaper Agreed. If you’ll indulge me for a minute: In the Star Wars Phantom Menace novelization (which came out months before the movie), Anikin’s force abilities were pretty passive. He was attuned toward mechanical things that he had fixed, and he had heightened perception. You’re right, he hadn’t won a pod race up to that point. As a slave he pretty much put Watto’s junk back together so that Watto could sell it. He had the force, but the main things he did come about through training and he was helped by Watto’s repair droids.
Not even close. He got rejected by the council. He’s training literally started because the council was sad qui gon Jin died. He was shown as immature, and arrogant. He was bested by count dooku fairly easily in attack of the clones. He was fairly easily manipulated by palpatine. He fell from grace to become Darth Vader and was by no means perfect. He was a tragic character which made him so likable. Rey literally found lightsaber and boom, most powerful Jedi ever.
I think because of Anakin drastic character development (into evil) the Anakin's story is more interesting than Luke's story. Luke has a typical hero journey but Anakin first does become somewhat hero and later transforms into a villain. Losing his sanity along the way and becomes a merciless killer. This is a sad story and I really felt bad for him. However this also gives more depth to a story.
Rey never even trained, she never had to. From the start she was using Jedi mind tricks without even knowing what the force really is (Luke was not able to do this till episode 3 after many years of training). She was besting Kylo in a light saber duel and besting him easily without having used a light saber before. Her character is ridiculous, and the last Jedi was one big cringe fest. Terrible movies. When I first saw the force awakens I though it had potential, now looking back the signs of the new trilogy being a big steaming pile of dog crap were there. I was simply eager to see a new star wars trilogy with my kids. They didn't like them either, but they do like the Lucas Star Wars the real Star Wars.
"I've only seen this kind of raw power once before?" "Your father?" "Nah, the Chosen One is a loser" "Your sister?" "Never finished her training" "Obi-Wan" "Not him either"
hell rey didn't even train. They forced in some training spots in rise but thats cause people pointed out how the hell is she so powerful with zero training.
@@Slavic_Boer and according to Poe, Rey took his title of "best pilot" and of _course_ she's the best fighter in the "resistance" Gosh golly, isn't Rey just the bestest! She can do everything! Such great, very wow!
@@Slavic_Boer who is Anthony Ingruber? Na, Disney needed someone famous, someone with "star power." they needed that other guy, good ol' what's his name to draw on the crowds. You know the guy, I think was in that other thing?
Anakin: Gets his hand cut off and later loses pretty much all his limbs while being turned into a burnt chicken nugget. People: "Ah yes, definitely a Mary Sue."
not to mention, Rey hopped into the millennium falcon and was immediately able to fly it, just as good as Han could after years of learning how the ship reacted, despite Rey growing up without being exposed to ships and flying from a young age like Anakin was.
"Is Anakin a Mary Sue?" Anakin: *Can't Even Be a Chosen One Correctly and Fails at Fulfilling His Own Prophecy After Crippling Himself Mentally and Physically* Sequel Fans: "Ya'll hear sum?"
Anakin did fulfill his prophecy it just took 6 movies to tell the whole story. He brought balance to the force by killing all the jedi and the sith. It's a wicked story George Lucas is a genius.
@@shrekzebee4435 Yeah to me star wars is the story of the chosen one Anakin Skywalker and that story was told by the first 6 episodes already. Why make more ? Obviously i know why but to me the story of star wars is done they should have made some individual stories not "continue" the already finished story.
"I was browsing twitter looking for calm, logical, rational discussion about the merits of the sequel trilogy" Ah I see you're only interested in the exceptionally rare.
I remember how despite his high midochlorian count and being one with the force, he was inexperienced enough to take down Dooku when they first fought, because he hadn't honed his skill, and lost an arm for it. At his prime after beating Dooku he was still too rash and lost everything after being cut down by Obi Wan. Rey, with no skilled training was able to take down/stand toe to toe with a trained Kylo Ren. There's a stark difference from the characterization George Lucas portrayed with his main characters compared to Disney.
Wait in that scene where Anakins in the yellow ship, theres like 10 seconds of him throwing all of the switches trying to figure out what they do. That seems pretty relatable to what a 10 year old who doesn't actually know what to do would do Rey can "bypass the compressor" without a shred of knowledge of piloting or ships. Only thing we know about her upon meeting her is that she has a sled for salvaging and what is probably a pretty common landspeeder type thing IIRC I was also reminded of one scene you may have forgotten -- when anakin is escorting padme on naboo and he tries to offer his wisdom as a "master jedi" and padme full on degrades him in public. This alone is about a 20 second scene that makes everyone in the scene and everyone watching the scene very uneasy and very defensive. This is not the first time, nor the last time anakin was degraded or devalued and you can tell the fact that it keeps happening is to a large degree from his ambition to become powerful and ascend the ranks quickly, and also to the fact that other characters know this to be a flaw of his and respond to his arrogance with mostly stoic reasoning and worry about his future.
George Lucas is a fantastic visionary with excellent story elements. The prequel story he wanted to tell worked great as a book, but needed some tweaking to be a movie.
"Ya'll aint ready for that conversation" basically just means "my argument has no evidence and I just want it to be true but im not willing to talk about it because im scared of it being easily dismantled so just accept it as facts please"
@@madkoala2130 yeah clone wars saved him from being a Mary sue in a classic sense but i still would say he is supposed to be in the story as a critic of the chosen one trope
@@therealmrmago9077 I'd almost say he's a perfect definition of an anti-Mary Sue in the prequels, with the exclusion of the one time he blew up the droid command ship. His every choice outside of that doomed himself and the Jedi, either in the short, or long term. Heck, I'd argue lore wise he should be a Mary Sue, given his position as the Chosen One, but he manages to be the exact opposite, which is hilarious when you consider that they gave Rey what amounts to a "You are the chosen one who can do everything you want" treatment, but they were unwilling to follow through. I didn't much like Last Jedi personally, but had they ran with the idea that Rey was essentially the new Chosen One, specifically born to stop the new wave of Dark Side users, I'd be cool with that. But instead, they made her what amounts to Palpatine's Niece (no one can make me think of her as his grandchild because unlike Boba Fett, you can't convince me Palpatine tried to raise his failed clone).
Anakin teaches us how power can be currupted and used against us, even when we wield it. He's strong, powerful, ambitious but to hotheaded, he is a person of grant will to fight for everything he loves, but he's a person whose have been flawed and broken since he was born, and with his understanding of what he was and the resentment and fear to face his flaws, he fails to fix them with disastrous consequences.
Unnaturally strong in the force with no way of controlling it, recruited into a lifestyle forced to cut ties with his family, grew up with strong emotions he’s forced to suppress , lost his family , didn’t want to lose his wife and child , turned to evil , lost his wife and half his body. I’d say there’s plenty of struggle
SJWs: "The world is on fire. Who TF is Anakin? Wait, really? How many years ago was that movie? God, I don't have time. No one but complete fools could possible care about this."
@El Gusanillo Del Juego The fact that he doesnt get instantly killed by Dooku shows that he is better than the average jedi. He is also one of the few to survive the arena in Geonosis. As for being a pilot. They simply didnt have enough time to put a space battle in episode 2.
Bravo brother. This is why you're my second favourite binge alcoholic. But being a drunk is not without its flaws, trust me. I recently watched the first 6 (there are only 6) episodes in order to fully understand the story. I cried, a lot. But that was partially down to drinking vodka through my eyes. Cheers Eye Ball Paul for that nugget of wisdom. I think the 5th Elemental laugh was unjustified at the quote, "I don’t like sand. It’s coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth." Remember he was a slave child from a desert world. This is surely a metaphor for the many small things that bother him, and the soft and smooth are the love of the woman and the green of the hills of a world he'd never seen before. ie, shroom cuntry. You need a dichotomy to create a dilemma potent enough to turn one from the light to the shadow. It's carefully crafted meaningful script. Everything else in this episode, nail on the head. And why I was one of your first subscribers, and remain so. I stand open to be corrected by my respected intoxicated peers. Cheers xcc
Wonders if anyone knows that 'Gary Stu' is the male equivalent of a 'Mary Sue'.... Of course Anakin isn't a Mary Sue... Because Mary Sue's are women...
@@SardonicJosh Yet he still took years of training. And he had flaws. Like mental weaknesses. Or not much forsight. Also *hm*, his hand got chopped off, so he wasn't OP from the start.
Technically she should have lost an arm in the second movie of the sequel trilogy. As did Anakin, via Count Dooko, and Luke, via Darth Vader, each in the second of their trilogies.
@@kirkschreier2369 if she didn't didn't have plot armor, she would died in the 8th episode, there was a yt video of a guy going into depth abt the throne room fight scene, and there's multiple times where the guys have to purposely miss last second bc she's not paying attention/has her back to them. If she didn't have plot armor she would've been clapped
All Anakin was was the chosen one, one gifted in the Force. That is literally it. If he was never trained, he wouldn't know how to use the Force. Rey literally overpowers anyone without any training.
Exactly, she even used the fuckin Jedi mind trick without prior training. When I saw that in the theaters I was like "how the fuck did you know how to do that? Or rather how did you even know what the fuck that was in general"? She also moved things with the force and defeated kylo ren. And the next movie is all about her training how to use the force and fight and I'm like: FOR WHAT????
Fuck, even Anakin being the Chosen One had to go through years of training and was still beaten by less powerful but more skilled/experienced opponents. Note very Mary Sue-like
@@leenaleewitch3731 If anakin would've been left on tatoinne he would still be working as a slave of watto and would be the best pod racer that ever was . That's it , he couldn't even begin to win pod racing before Qui gon told him how to channel his potential and only then did he win .
The point is not the truth behind the statement. It's a trick to get you to refute or defend at length a completely irrelevant point, and forget the whole point of the argument. Watch Bill Hicks' take on post modernism for a good summary.
They don't watch them, as sales borne out. The louder the SJW, the more likely that they've never heard of jack shit about the actual subject they're trying to cancel you over. Freudian Hypocrisy 101.
another masterpiece can't believe someone would use perfection and annakin in the same sentence but you set that shit straight tell Tatyanna to make you another sandwich for that one.