What Happened to the Old Groningen (Ommelanden) Flag? 

nice profile picture!

Pompeblêden is what those hearts are called.

Those aren't hearts

The hearts are actually lilypads and we also have Friesche vlag condensed milk in the Netherlands

so cool to hear, friesche vlag is very popular here in netherlands too

was already confused, because I recently googled Groningen and saw the coat of arms with the “frisian” flag

@@thatsleepybirb up to the late 19th century the ommelanden spoke frisian. the dutch/german low saxon replaced this over time.

​@@erwin887in Appingedam and most of the Ommelanden (and Ost-Friesland) Middle Low German was the main language spoken for about 5 centuries.. From this language Gronings was derived. Frisian language was developed by a school master in the early 19th century. He used Low German, a bit of English and Danish and furthermore made a synthesis of regional dialects. Those dialects where found in very isolated areas, and where almost unaltered since Old Frisian dissappeared in late Medieval times.

The cultural origins of Groningen are pretty much impossible to pinpoint, given that it is right on the border of the traditional Frisian and Saxon territories and Frisians and Saxons and their dialects are closely related so historically a distinction wasn't always noted. That said, Groningen (the city) is not neccesarily culturally Saxon in origin. There is more evidence that it is in origin a Frisian village that gradually shifted to speaking a Low German dialect during the Middle Ages as a result of its association with the Hanseatic League (which used Low German as its common tongue). A similar process happened later in Ostfriesland and in the Ommelanden where increasing influence from more southern and eastern areas leads to a very gradual shift in dialect. The strongest evidence for a Frisian origin of Groningen is probably the city's representation at the Upstalsboom, with the city later even replacing Aurich as the gathering place for this traditional meeting of Frisian representatives. Westerwolde is not normally considered as one of the Frisian areas, though the northern parts of what is now Westerwolde actually were, since it was part of the Frisian territory of Reiderland that was partitioned in the 15th century. However, Westerwolde has historically been counted among the Ommelanden of Groningen since at least the 15th century, so the flag does represent it. Gorecht is not really a seperate area from the city, since it was always the territory of the city of Groningen.

@@jodofe4879 There's no evidence of Groningen being a Frisian village and that it shifted to speaking a Saxon or Low German dialect. It's the other way around. The surrounding Frisian areas shifted to a Saxon dialect (with a still strong Frisian input). The same happened in Ostfriesland. Saxon influenced Frisian and created a unique Friso-Saxon hybrid dialect. Reiderland isn't a part of Westerwolde and never has been. R(h)eiderland was one of the Frisian Zeelanden.

​@@jodofe4879 If you look at the cultural+natural landscape, archeologie and medieval road+field names, it is very likely that the city started as a saxon village. Gorecht used to be part of Drenthe, which is saxon. But you can't deny the Frisian influence. Because it is in right on the edge of 2 very similar cultures. Even in the early middleages , you could walk from western most saxon village to the eastern most Frisian one. So has the city a saxon origin? yes, but Frisian influence was present from day one. Same goes for saxon influence in some Frisian villages and towns. Funny thing is that the remains of at least 2 saxon villages have been found in the city centre, and in the northern neighborhoods, there is a Frisian Terp, that is less than a 1,5 hour walk

juist! zie daarom ook mijn commentaar.

Westerwolde is also an saxon region

It is east friesland

No Westerwolde, Gorecht and Groningen have never been frisian

@@maktikithat’s not a fight u wanna go with

@@ploppyjr2373 In the Middle ages it was one free state of Frisians. One big conglomeration without a lord.

You are correct. The cross in the Groninger flag is however a reference to Scandinavia like Hilbert said. The reason why their cross is in the middle of the flag is because it symbolises the central location of the capital city.

Perhaps the were looking at the English Flag?

mee eens, zie ook mijn commentaar

Slochteren! 💛

😂

Don't take what I have to say for a fact, but I think it is because the Firsians used to be very verty early in the area, going back to the early middle ages. They were here for a long time

It was originally a Drentish village, wich can even be seen today by the old street names, ending on -inge. And a of course the Saxon horse in the heraldry.

In the Ommelanden Frisian was spoken but the language already was pushed out well before the 80 years war. History with Hilbert loves to paint history with too much favour to the Frisians so take his assumptions with a grain of salt

​@@rozenzoonseems be empty after the Romans disappear, the Frisians came in the 5 or 6 century.

​@@michaelruijtenbeek8672think there is a horse on the top of the Martinitower. And the center has originally the the "Drentse brink" as city center.

Originally the regions between Schleswig-Holstein and present-day Dunkirk in France were under Frisian control until the Franks invaded.

Frisia was van het huidige Vlaanderen (ook gedeeltelijk wat nu Frankrijk is) tot Denemarken. Helaas nu niet meer.... 😢

Helemaal mee eens

Not true. They are called "Jelles" from "Jelle Jelle Land. "

Het kan dooien, het kan vriezen …

Mostly a joke amongst the majority though.

'T kan vriezen en 't kan dooien, maar de beste dooie benne Friezen.

Groningen is ooit uit de zee ontstaan. De kwallen zijn helaas blijven liggen.

Ja Groningen never was Frisian it was a drenthish village in origin

Groningers zijn Drenthen uit het zuiden, de Ommelanden zijn inderdaad fries geweest maar daar werd in 14-15de eeuw al meer Saksisch dan fries gesproken. En dan het Fries alleen in het Westerkwartier

@@stanislavkino Leuk om te weten! We zijn in elk geval allemaal Noorderlingen/Oosterlingen (ik reken gemakshalve het Twents en Achterhoeks mee als verwante Saksische dialecten, evenals delen van Noord-West Overijssel, Salland, waar men min of meer dezelfde aard heeft en een Saksische tongval. Ik zag ooit een mooi gedichtje in een kroeg hangen in Steenwijk: God schiep van de gouden korenaren, de Friezen, Groningers en Drentenaren van het kaf en de resten schiep Hij de mensen uit het Westen

@@Pincer88 😂

@@Pincer88 Waar genoeg! denk dat zelfs de meeste groningers liever met Friezen te doen hebben dan hollanders

​@@Pincer88Nedersaksisch is nu een erkende taal in Nederland. Nedersaksisch : van Groningen tot in de Achterhoek

tre ante

Yes the city of Groningen, but not the whole Province of Groningen, like Appingendam etc., which was Frisian.

Ben jij fries? Stad zelf fries geweest ik heb geen idee waar Hilbert dat vandaan haalt maar klopt niet

@@stanislavkino nee ben zo grunnegs als moar kin

Want to know something funny? As a Groninger I talked in my language or dialect, and people from Ireland through to Finland can understand me. As well as the Germans, Austrians, Swiss and even the Amish. In all fairness I don't even find Pensylvanian Dutch hard to understand. Also it helps that I was born in Groningen, with a German grandmother, had an English girlfriend, went to the Ohio University. However, I have always been able to easily pick up those languages. Because Old English ties into Frisian and also the Lower Saxon dialect of this region. For example in Frisian a cow is a ku or cū, but in Groningen we call it a kau as in spoken as cow. Also the low saxon language ties back into the Scandinavian language due to the Hanze trade league. Plus even old trade routes as low Saxon is spoken in the north or German. Low Saxon is also called Low German and modern German aka High German is derived from Low German. So Frisian and Low Saxon are the key languages of Northern Europe or Anglo Saxon Europe as it is also called. Frisia and Frisian has also ties to the Slavic people. But that is a story for another day.

@@LogiForce86 Yes, that is a nice story indeed. Thank you! My Zeelandic grandmother claimed the same at least in Scandinavia up to and including Åland. I don't know about the German speaking countries. My grandparents from both sides spoke fluent German, so they never spoke Zeelandish to the people in Germany or the Alpes. I think it doesn't really matter which shade of Dutch you speak, it's always somewhere in the middle of all Germanic languages. I don't believe mainland Finnish people and Dutch people are able to understand each other if they both speak in their mother tongue. Those two languages are completely different from each other.

@pleegjepleegje Dutch is not the same as Low Saxon or Frisian. In fact, our mainstream national television has to subtitel those who speak Frisian or Low Saxon dialect. So, while Dutch might seem similar, it is not. There are too many French influences for that, and in fact, it originated from Frankish tribes in the south of the country around the big rivers like Maas and Rhine (Franks or now called the French) rather than the languages in the North which are Frisian and Saxon in origin. I used to have Friends in Ireland, Scotland, Norway, Denmark, Finland. As well as an English teacher from Sweden. So I got to test the waters quite a bit with my Lower Saxon Groningen style dialect. Also the Frisians became a slave tribe and hence there is a link to the Slavic people. Albeit it is a bit hard to explain. Please look for enthropologist Robert Sepehr his video on youtube about the "Oera Linde Book". Which is the origin story of the Frisian people. Very interesting, and it far predates Romans if I recall well.

@@LogiForce86 I have been living in a Low Saxon region for all of my adult life and the dialect differs from village to village just like in Zeeland and yet it all sounds pretty Dutch to me. And I sound like a 'Westerling' to them, which is hilarious, because I'm a 'Zuiderling'. You're right about the Dutch living below and 'in' the rivers using a little bit more French in their language than the average Dutch who also use some French in their variety of Dutch. The most used example for Southerners speaking more French is of course the word friet. We picked a part of the French word 'pommes frites' just like the Flemish, the English, the Germans (who use pommes or fritten) and the Scandinavians. Only somewhere between Goeree Overflakkee and Rottumerplaat the Dutch picked the Spanish word p'tat. Everyone of us Germanic speakers except for the English uses a part of one of the French words for car: l'automobile. Both German and Dutch use auto and Scandinavians use bil. There are countless examples of French words in all Germanic regions. For me as a Zeeuwse, I only get lost in some parts of Limburg where they speak a completely unintelligible, language. In the rest of the Netherlands I only hear a wide variety of different kinds of Dutch. But I am very happy for the Frisians that they got their own language, though:) Maybe you don't like Low Saxon being called Dutch, because you see Dutch as the language of those 'depraved Westerlingen':D In that case I don't mind if you replace Dutch with Netherlandic or something else that pleases you the most:)

@pleegjepleegje Actually, the Spanish first introduced us in Europe to the potatoe. Yet in the North (Frisian and Low Saxon), we call it an Ierdappel or Earth-apple. Yet in Germany and Denmark, it is called a Kartoffel in their modern languages. In the end, for anyone from Twente upwards to the North, calling French fries "patat" is because it sounds better in the language than "friet.". As we say... "het bekt beter" (it mouths better / rolls of the tongue better). Sometimes, there just aren't any profound reasons as to why. Also, Great Frisia stretched the entire Benelux coast from at least Brugge (if not Dunkirk) up to Hamburg. So I am not surprised you can understand, but if you would only know plain Dutch (like most from the "Randstad"-area) and no dialects, then you fall more to the Frankish-Dutch side rooted in Old Dutch. Which is more the Limburgers Brabanders and down into the Flamish areas of central and east Belgium. Wikipedia has a nice map on this on the Dutch version of the topic "Nederlands" under history. The development of standard Dutch killed off the dialects among the younger generations in post WW2 Netherlands, and with many people moving through the country for work, the local dialect is slowly being lost. I don't hate the "Westerlingen" or "Randstedelingen," but I do dislike the snobby attitude against those outside their area. If you speak a dialect, you are a "boer" and "ordinary" (as in disgustingly low to the ground of society), and that dedain from their self-proclaimed ivory tower is what... at least in Groningen... is massively frowned upon. I will tell you this. Groningers and Frisians talk about each other like the Belgians and Frisians, and as a Groninger, I would sarcastically give my condolences to a Frisian for being born a Frisian. However, if the Netherlands were to mistreat the Northern provinces, then we would reunite in a Great Frisia. Personally, I would love to see local language and dialect promoted in primary schools again. Because the dialects are the languages of old which can act as a bridge to understand foreign languages. It would make it easier to learn English, German, French, and anything beyond that. Knowing what is common and what is different and why it is like that helps to understand, and if you understand how a language works and has evolved you will also more easily pick up the language since translating will become very easy.

Sâltkamp sa moai!

Ommelanden only speak a mixed Frisian-saxon language. But they are as Frisian a Fryslân ethnically

@@JaepStruiksma no

@@-gemberkoekje-5547 jawel,de Ommelanden zijn pas Saksisch gaan spreken toen de stad veel macht kreeg. Je kunt in het gesproken Saksisch ook duidelijk opmaken dat het vol fries zit. De meeste Groningers in de Ommelanden zijn Friezen die Saksisch zijn gaan spreken. Geldt ook voor Oost Friesland in Duitsland. Verschil is dat die Oost Friezen zich wel fries voelen.

Klopt maar in principe zijn de Ommelanden vandaag de dag Saksisch als gevolg daarvan. Zeker omdat Saksisch daar al sinds de 15de eeuw gesproken wordt​@@JaepStruiksma

@@stanislavkino Saksisch sprekend maakt nog niet Saksisch.

Wat is dit voor Partitie van Groningen kwaadaardig

The Frisian flag does not represent Groningen as the city has never in it's history been Frisian

En alle commentaren van Groningers, Friezen en Hollanders here in the comment section in English! 🙂

Other way around😉 South Africa's flag only dates from 1994.

@@gabo10100 Thats not South Africas flag, the current SA flag is a transition flag to the ANC tricolor