What has Keysight done to 3458A?! Dark Theme 8.5 Digit Multimeter

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00:00 Intro
01:31 Calibrating standards
03:16 Accuracy
04:34 Calibrating calibrator
05:10 HP 3458A AC cal
05:43 Accessories
06:24 Basics
08:06 Noise
08:58 Math & statistics
10:02 AC volt
10:48 Ohms
12:01 Current
12:32 Ratio
13:19 So much more
14:05 Long term test
15:41 DCV Tempco
16:41 Auto calibration
18:51 Cal constants log
19:45 Linearity
21:28 Current tempco
22:15 Outside thermals
22:48 Teardown
23:16 Processor board
24:03 Analog main board
24:43 Voltage reference
25:15 Precision resistors
27:04 Misc parts
28:14 Interface board
28:27 AC board
29:04 ADC board lore
31:58 ADC board swap?
33:18 Conclusion
#metrology #keysight #multimeter

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15 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 294

@IanScottJohnston 2 года назад

I let my own 3458A see this video, she was very happy.

@mikeselectricstuff 2 года назад

Can't understand why they wouldn't add ethernet while they were updating the CPU board - even if they wanted to keep all the old 68k code, they could have added an extra mcu to handle it.

@andrewwhite1793 2 года назад

Might be because the ethernet interface is too noisy.

@IanScottJohnston 2 года назад

Went over budget on the new hardware design maybe, or couldn't tie in another CPU to handle it without compromising the existing 68k code, or didn't want to introduce any new code, or maybe it's scheduled to arrive in the future......who knows! However, would loved to have been a fly on the wall when they had their meetings about it all........

@AndrewStrydomBRP 2 года назад

@@andrewwhite1793 Professional tier scopes have ethernet ports, what makes it different here? I recall even some of keysights scopes have them.

@j.dietrich 2 года назад

I would assume that they couldn't justify the NRE costs. If you add ethernet, you've got to do a load of extra EMC work. You need to re-tool the chassis production for the extra hole. It seems trivial, but it all adds up on a low-volume product like this. A few little tweaks can get perilously close to the cost of a full redesign. Or maybe they're just couldn't be bothered.

@DrFrank-xj9bc 2 года назад

Priority design goal was, to make a perfect / seamless copy of the old boards with small changes only to replace all terminated parts and make it ROHS compliant. Apart from that, any other updates / modifications / improvements were forbidden, because it was mandatory to not change the firmware. Any additional function would have caused a complete redesign of the software. And who knows, whether the source code and development environment was still available after > 25 years?

@support2587 2 года назад

Just how do you make such a dry subject so interesting to a layman? I’ll never have a reason to touch equipment like this but I’ll keep watching!

@prgnify 2 года назад

Same. Amazing how a single guy can get me interested in metrology for years, even when nothing I do relate to it in no way shape or form. I still want to drive around with that anker powerbank and compare ppms with friends (:

@bumohamedubualooy7111 2 года назад

its the job of a poet to make a rotten apple a miniture replica of mars

@lmamakos 2 года назад

As rare as the 3458A device is, I wonder how and where the tiny, tiny gloves are sourced? Perhaps they are shipped as accessories with the equipment for when the back-up battery needs to be replaced.

@Thefreakyfreek 2 года назад

It is a mystery for shure

@TheNefastor 2 года назад

I suspect there is a dark and ugly story behind the existence of those tiny, tiny gloves :-)

@nerddub Год назад

Ive been looking for way too many minutes and can't really find anything suitable. Dark Magic is involved for sure!

@jjoonathan7178 2 года назад

"If I'm robbed nobody is going to steal it because it looks like a VCR" lol, TRUE

@funtechu 2 года назад

Well, I lost it at the mini-gloves part :D

@Richard.Andersson 2 года назад

I did some additional math on your noise values. Something that is often important in my line of work is the trade-off between speed and noise/accuracy. Hence a lower NPLC is often preferred (if it does not introduce extra errors/offsets) because you can then later in software perform box-car filtering, or other fancy filter algorithms (excluding 10% and 90% percentile outliers etc.) depending on the situation. I averaged every 100 values together for the 1 NPLC points, every 10 values for the 10 NPLC points, and comparing to the raw 100 NPLC data: All of these then have very similar RMS and peak-peak noise, however the offset is of course the same as in your data, i.e. best for 100 NPLC. It is impressive that even 1 NPLC raw data can later be filtered/averaged in software for about the same overall noise as 100 NPLC raw data. This gives a lot of flexibility to the user!

@thomashowe855 2 года назад

Kudos to you for making this video 34:58 min long.

@frosty129 2 года назад

great catch!

@Thefreakyfreek 2 года назад

Wait what how

@Arsenic71 2 года назад

Glad they decided to use ANA for Analog, and not used one more letter. Great to see a new video and it's a decent duration, as well!

@Zadster 2 года назад

Maybe they use the L suffix for 10 digit+ accuracy systems.

@digitalradiohacker 2 года назад

At work I have a couple of folders in my test radios that contain analogue and digital channels respectively. The problem is that there is only so much room for a folder / channel alias, so I have to get "creative" with the names, as I frequently have to take these sets to site, and demo for a client. ANA for the win.

@cvspvr 2 месяца назад

@@Zadstermaybe they didn't want to take the L

@eviltreechop 2 года назад

I have family living just 1km away from the PTB. The low ppm’s are palpable in the air when you bike past. Also nearby is the national agricultural research centre, where they have cows with holes in them. The collaboration potential between these two institutes is infinite.

@douro20 Год назад

Those are called cannulated cows. They are used primarily for feed research. The first cannulation was performed all the way back in the 1920s from what I read.

@teslakovalaborator 2 года назад

LOL you got me with that "xd" zoom at 25:26. I recommend you getting some old hybrid monostables "WTF001" with date code "XD" to put the icing on top of the cake! (and yes, they exist and are sold)

@teslakovalaborator 2 года назад

Well I cannot believe that you actually got them lol

@douro20 2 года назад

Nice to see a BR cell rather than a CR cell. These have more stable chemistry than CR cells, and therefore often have a longer operating life.

@GalileoAV 2 года назад

This reminds me of the feeling of being 12 and sitting down with a graphing calculator for the first time, looking through all the settings. Confusion and awe

@jamwaffles 2 года назад

You were 1 second of the 3458A video being 34:58 long. RU-vid why.

@reps 2 года назад

Haha yes this is annoying. The actual video file is 34:58 long and the thumbnail displays it correctly, but player doesn't agree 🙄

@matjesmeister2403 2 года назад

I absolutely love the frequency of new videos recently! :D

@IanScottJohnston 2 года назад

Love the thumbnail.......the Keysight logo on the bucket of paint.....LOL

@irkenlabs 2 года назад

This is the first time in a long time I didn't skip parts of a video on RU-vid, fantastic!

@coldfinger459sub0 2 года назад

As just a hobbyist glad to know my secondhand old HP is way more accurate and overkill for a guy who just builds simple audio amplifiers lol 😂 Thanks for your videos for guiding me on my path to purchasing old reliable equipment but it takes up a lot of bench top and shelf workspace compared to the new stuff.

@andrewwhite1793 2 года назад

A few years ago I bought (for work) an audio analyser for 2k instead of the 12k unit that budget was allocated for because I could not fit the massive box of the expensive one on the bench😀

@coldfinger459sub0 2 года назад

@@andrewwhite1793 i’m planning to do the same thing AUDIO analyzer is on my wish list bucket list Of course I really don’t need it but I like tools I like learning things and I like tweaking things

@marsgizmo 2 года назад

I'm tying not to be drooling when I see this Multimeter 🤤 Great teardown video 👏

@noise4741 2 года назад

Glad to make an appearance 08:06

@DrFrank-xj9bc 2 года назад

The DCV T.C. arises from both the LTZ reference and the U180 circuit. In my 3458A, both parts each contribute about half (0.2 and 0.25ppm/K) of the overall T.C., in the same direction. You may distinguish both by measuring CAL? 72 over different inner temperatures (do ACAL at different extreme TEMP? values and directly write down this '72 gain parameter). KS still did not correct the other design bug in the LTZ1000A circuit, i.e. the 200kOhm resistor is still equipped, which should only be used for the non-A version. Therefore, I suspect that your residual 0.5ppm/K mostly comes from the reference board. Other possibility is, that on your older 3458A, both T.C.s mostly cancel out. A last hint: get a proper basement room, which might serve as a passive A/C, i.e. stable R.T. at +/- 1°C over the whole year. Under such unstable temperature conditions, your equipment is like Anna Kournikova: Looks pretty nice, but does not win a price. (Temperature) Stability is everything.

@tomkzinti2760 2 года назад

I love your videos. You have a beautiful grasp of Englisch and your phrasing and jokes are worth every penny! You, sir, are...not A diamond in the rough, but THE diamond in the rough. Please continue being yourself, you are very much appreciated. The spreadsheet on the wall was a nice touch and I liked the camerawork. I love to see all the rear connectors and labeling. Good job.

@TheMcSebi 2 года назад

So many videos this month! Thank you so much for your continuously high quality entertainment!

@kmain5587 2 года назад

34 MINUTES? oh god yes, what an amazing early birthday gift. I love everything you do, even though I have no idea what you are saying half the time, i'm just fascinated.

@bryanpratt3933 2 года назад

34:58, to be exact

@AmiPurple 2 года назад

Always a pleasure to see your lovely videos, awesome ppm stickers. Guess the 3458a is so good it can just be called 'the meter'. Worth the patreon support for awesome videos like this. Thanks

@ziginox 2 года назад

"Immune to plastic discoloration" Ask Dell about that one... Can we see some information about the processing on the Solartron? I have a (lower-end) Solartron meter with the programming options, and it's insane what it could do for 1977.

@peterwalker5413 2 года назад

You’re humor always makes my day!

@maxtesla3699 2 года назад

Were does the "Warning Contains highly precious ppms" sticker come from? I neeeeeeed it :D Do you sell them in your merch store?

@ShahZahid 2 года назад

why do these high end lab bench multimeter, calibrators all still use these VFD like displays, is there a specific reason to this, always wondered about this?

@HashanGayasri 2 года назад

Same. Any input on this?

@Sw3d15h_F1s4 2 года назад

Perhaps because it refreshes faster? Less processing/delay compared to a digital screen? No idea just taking some guesses

@andreasthomsen852 2 года назад

one thing could also be that they may last longer when left on 24/-365 in test labs, vs LCD's where the backlight often dies after some amount of time. another thing Is a lot of these devices have old ancesters or olderversions, so using a known good design is often prefered to limit the needed part catalog.

@nvium 2 года назад

@@Sw3d15h_F1s4 i dont think so, modern lcd/oled displays have a refresh rate of way over 120hz, plus these things have powerful fpga's in them so processing shouldn't be an issue, ig it might have to do something with such interfaces being industry standard but then that doesn't explain why they have used lcd screen in their newer bench power supplies, this is indeed intriguing

@nvium 2 года назад

@@andreasthomsen852 but the newer bench psu's and some other equipment uses lcd/oled screens, so this is a bit weird

@saucebosspl 2 года назад

Nice videos as always! Super cool for Keysight to send you such an amazing toy :D

@mrmeval 2 года назад

If they sent you the 8ppm version instead of the 4ppm version Keysight is doing quite well by their customers.

@_Jigen 2 года назад

I always did consider these things to be mysterious black boxes but..

@iRiselyTech 2 года назад

A brand new video on my birthday!? Danke sehr Marco!

@tomicktwo 2 года назад

Where did you get the gloves for your tiny hands?

@heronguarezi6501 2 года назад

That was a nice string of videos! The man does remember us.

@TheZombieSaints 2 года назад

Right? I'm really enjoying all these new videos. Don't go burning yourself out now Marco 😉.

@atvsteam Год назад

What a great video! Thanks for sharing your efforts ...

@asnaeb2 2 года назад

Marco pumping out vids since he has power again

@sircompo 2 года назад

6:10 🤣 Where the ****** did you get gloves for your fingerhands? I'm crying! 🤣

@boilerbots 2 года назад

My first 11 years out of college I worked on Automated Test Equipment and every machine my division shipped had a 3458A inside that we used for auto calibration. I worked on the automated calibration of the machines and managed the driver for the 3458A. You know pretty much all the secrets of the machine and the auto calibration after a 1C change for sure was part of my routine. One thing that we used was current measurements and I remember that we had a problem with measurement noise coming from the GPIB interface that only affected current measurements. We found a company that sold a GPIB isolator and we had to install that between the 3458A and the Sun workstation that was the computer in our testers. I had probably touched a hundred 3458A meters while I worked there and everyone was amazing.

@masonedwards7920 2 года назад

I lost it when you pulled out the tiny gloves 😂 Great video

@alexanderalden3318 Год назад

I live in Loveland colorado and am just tickled pink whenever you mention it. I have even talked to some of the retired engineers that used to work at the hp plant.

@sebastianliebhart4670 2 года назад

Everything's better with Dark Theme. And so much content from you again lately, awesome!

@davesherman74 Месяц назад

Former Keithley engineer here. While we certainly respected the 3458, I often wondered how many difficulties HP/Agilent/Keysight had to keep making the 3458 for so long. I had to work on maintaining the Keithley 2002, and let's just say there were a lot of parts that had gone obsolete in the 2002's lifetime, and some parts we had to get creative trying to replace them.

@3beltwesty Месяц назад

3 decades ago I was in APEX Surplus in Sun Valley and a friend was buying used Fluke differential volt meters to rebuild many for a military place. The original older serial number ones had a slightly radioactive neon bulb in the chopper circuit. A stock new bulb worked but did not last as long. The doped neon bulb that was slightly radio active had a lower firing voltage. I think the replacement Fluke bulbs then were non radioactive.

@_2N2222 2 года назад

About a month ago I had the lucky and fascinating opportunity to visit the electrical standards labs at another national metrology institute in Europe. Of course, they also use the Agilent/Keysight 3458A in several places. I also saw GPIB everywhere, now I know why. But Ethernet and SCPI would certainly be adequate features in the 21st century.

@raymiller5738 2 года назад

Great video Marco, I noticed on my HP34401A that the mains voltage varies the amount of power dissipated within the instrument than the internal temperature, so even if the ambient temperate is stable the varying mains volage will still change the internal temperature. As you are trying to eliminate all sources of PPM leakage an easy simple solution to further stabilise your test setup is to run your equipment from a stable AC voltage source which these days can be as simple as a 48V battery inverter from your new PV array. The added advantage is being fully backed up from any mains failure further locking those PPMs in.

@Zadster 2 года назад

I'm pleased to say I have one of these pieces of precision test gear on my bench right now. It has been there for a few years, powered up 24/7. It seems nice and stable, always reliable. However, it does have a white case, not one of the trendy black enclosures. No, not a 3458A, an Auriol radio locked clock / thermometer! Oh man, imagine if you could get 3458As from the middle of Lidl!

@gregorymccoy6797 2 года назад

I lust for this gear ... Awesome video.

@Andy-rq9ni 2 года назад

ok so i just have to say that im no electronics wizzard but damn dude you make these videos so much more enjoyable , ive been subbed for a few months now and every time a new video Drop i get excited , good Job and keep up the quality content

@KillerXtreme 2 года назад

I would love to see a guide in how you've managed to graph everything inside Graphana, Or if you have a link to one you've used.

@QsTechService1 2 года назад

Pretty awesome how you described everything Is How Thing's work This would be one awesome tool to have

@lohikarhu734 2 года назад

Ah...PTB ! I've been there with my CIE "hat on" ...how nice for you!!

@LiquidAudio Год назад

I can't believe you have two of these! I dream of owning one, my best meter in terms of precision is my 'lowly' 6.5 digit Keithley 2015THD.

@TheZombieSaints 2 года назад

Ok, where did you get that tiny glove for the tiny hand lol priceless

@joeybuddy96 2 года назад

Why isn't this guy working for CERN... The tiny hands and gloves sent me lol.

@FLYBYMEable 2 года назад

Always amazing!

@yaghiyahbrenner8902 2 года назад

I loved this review.

@nyceyes 2 года назад

Great video. Thank you. 🤗

@alpcns 2 года назад

Fascinating video of a fascinating instrument. This is NASA-like stuff - and I love it.

@simmoi 2 года назад

Thanks bro needed that millimetre precision strike 😂

@fatcamp907 2 года назад

I honestly don't know anything about anything you're talking about. Still enjoy the videos. Keep it up!

@legobuildingsrewiew7538 2 года назад

My favourite channel on youtube

@Anatoli-y 2 года назад

Preview picture is awesome)

@FranklyPeetoons 2 года назад

Marco Reps is the This Old Tony of CNC Kitchens

@germas369 2 года назад

Fantastic video. thanks

@allthegearnoidea6752 2 года назад

Wow that is magnificent. I’m not sure on the black I think white text is hard to read but lovely. Thanks for sharing

@mattweger437 2 года назад

I've honestly never wanted, needed, or used a desktop multi meter. But now I kinda want one

@radio655 2 года назад

Oh goodness, what a thing of beauty!

@MaxWattage 2 года назад

"It’s the wild colour scheme that freaks me out," said Zaphod, ... "Every time you try and operate these weird black controls that are labelled in black on a black background, a little black light lights up in black to let you know you’ve done it." Zaphod Beeblebrox, The Restaurant At The End Of The Universe

@dertiedemann718 2 года назад

Awesome video as always! 👍 Im currious about your data logging software, what kind of timeseries database do you use? Sth along the lines of prometheus/influx/clickhouse? I would love to know :)

@andpe161 2 года назад

Influx + Grafana

@alejandrosilva7520 2 года назад

Danke sehr!!

@JesusElectrotecnia 8 месяцев назад

Beautiful

@Edwinthebreadwin 2 года назад

The camera angles are good

@JoneKone 2 года назад

I don't always care about PPM's, but when I do It's while watching Marco Reps videos :)

@PixelSchnitzel 2 года назад

Every episode comes with a free quadruple espresso. At least that's how inspired I am by the end!

@nicolasjonasson4820 2 года назад

harvesting coto relays before ripeness - a pretty good one this is fantastic btw

@plemli 2 года назад

We remember Marco from the days he was so poor that he had to go out and harvest capacitors in a field. (An agricultural, not electrical field)

@thehorriblebright 2 года назад

I understand almost nothing about this, but I'm here for it regardless.

@platin2148 2 года назад

Now that clock next to the instruments needs a accuracy upgrade too.

@milk-it 2 года назад

Looks like that patient will survive! ;-)

@BevinEG 2 года назад

Group bonding is great.

@EmptySirens 2 года назад

Please marco, I can only get excited so many times a month.... You're just being to kind at this point ☺️

@TheExileFox 2 года назад

YAY. we need more matte black gear

@ultratorrent 2 года назад

Oh, it would actually be pretty easy to build a light-duty cleanroom. Mostly just getting the raised floor tiles and setting up air circulation to the ceiling with filtration somewhere in the air chaise/ducting.

@johnh1353 Год назад

I wonder how loud Marco screamed when was told he's getting sent a branch new 3458 ...

@gbclab 2 года назад

Simply....WOW!

@BogdanO45 2 года назад

Wow, amazing how the ambient temp influences the meters cal. GPIB would be easier than going through all the menu buttons.

@NimbleJack3 2 года назад

GPIB is the intended method for driving a 3458A. You can actually only get the maximum number of digits of resolution from the remote interface - the front-panel display always drops a couple.

@Kalanchoe1 2 года назад

6:25 where on earth did you get small gloves for your fingertip hand extenders??

@backgroundkiller 2 года назад

What did you use for recording and plotting all of these traces on the Pi? Would really like to have something similar for a smart garden project with the Pi being accessible on a web interface.

@WagonLoads 2 года назад

You might be the person to ask. I remember using a bench top DVM in class some time before 1977. It had the form factor similar to the Keithley 2700, but the bottom half was a plug-in compartment that allowed it to become different devices... Such as a DVM, Frequency counter, etc.. I am not even sure of the brand name.. The main body was a metal case where the top half was nothing except a display and power supply. The bottom half was a slide in compartment with a connector in the back. This is where the plug-in modules slide in like a drawer until it presses into the connector at the back. If I remember correctly, the display was a standard RED 7 segment LED display. I know it is nothing compared to the meter in this video, but I think it would be nice to find out what it was and what it was capable of...

@cellularmitosis2 2 года назад

I’m so glad that you make these videos, so that I can get my 3458a fix without having to spend $$$ to buy a 3458a 🤣

@PhG1961 2 года назад

Impressive !

@hernancoronel 2 года назад

Marco, awesome video thank you! I am sure you must dream about PPMs LOL!

@Slartibartfas042 2 года назад

Even if my old and trusty HP 3478A serves me very well with it's 6.5/7.5 Digits the 3458A is just "WOW"!!! :-D Nice bit of test gear. Even if it from time to time would remind me of the sentence: "Measure with micrometer caliper, mark down with a piece of chalk and in the end chop off with an axe" ;-)

@Stuartrusty 2 года назад

Ahhhh, Fluke 8508A reference bench multimeter, my daily user bench DMM as a repair tech at Fluke UK, fixing 8588A reference bench DMMs. This is where all the PPMs get installed. :D

@reps 2 года назад

.... do you guys have a scrap container in the cellar for hopeless causes? 😁

@Stuartrusty 2 года назад

@@reps Yes, but for within the company use only. 🙁

@joeybuddy96 2 года назад

I'm guessing those $100k Josephson meters are the next stretch goal, amirite?

@frosty129 2 года назад

Oh god... don't say it... he'll do it!

@stoyanpetkov2488 2 года назад

When are you releasing a video on the HARP project hanging behind your desk? :)

@kcasc_hd 2 года назад

I hope they release the BOM and schematics for this one too ....

@TheDefpom 2 года назад

I’m a bit jealous of that meter, I would love to have one of those!

@cheetahkid 2 года назад

me too

@Borrie131 2 года назад

Almost 13k, that's allot of money!

@bur1t0 2 года назад

You got the moves.

@pamdemonia 2 года назад

Where the heck did you get the tiny latex glove? I have a pair of tiny hands, and now I see that they need gloves! Interesting and funny as usual. Thanks!