Honestly i think it’s more complicated, 1. Tywin wasn’t sure tryon was his he really thought it was another spite of mad king Arrys that would mean death if he tried to prove it.
Another reason Robert isnt with Ned in canon is because Ned left KL in anger after Robert accepted the Lannister's butchering of Elia and her children. Ned was disgusted with Robert and essentially told him to eff off. They only reconciled over grief over Lyanna
@@BlakeCamreon Stupid to put himself and his family back in favor with the guy who was In Charge and now ruling the whole continent? A guy to whom he had already sworn oaths of fealty? Ned's own family was reduced to a nephew he had to lie about, a wife he barely knew, a son he'd never met and a brother who was soon to join the Night's Watch, after the loss of his father, his older brother, his sister as well as the possible love of his life and their unborn child. It would be practically inhuman for him to cut off his friendship with a man to whom he had been as close as a brother, a man who loved Ned more than his own brothers, over a disagreement about an issue that seemed unlikely to come up again.
@@Gunleaver Robert was the real mad king. Imagine obsessively pursuing a woman who doesn't want you, starting a war after she disappears to evade you, killing her new husband out of jealousy, and wanting to kill her newlyborn baby who is the nephew of your best friend. Robert Baratheon is a simp cuckold sucker for love drunkard fool.
@@Gunleaver said friend laughed at the deaths of an innocent woman and her children and rewarded their murderers. A better man would have cut off ties completely, severing all ties of friendship until Tywin the butcher and his marauders were executed for their crimes. Ned lost his entire family because of said friend
What if Myrcella “Baratheon” married Robb Stark instead Joffrey & Sansa? What if Jamie Lannister was at the Tower Of Joy instead of Gerold Hightower? What if Rhaelle Baratheon, Robert, Stannis & Renly’s grandmother was still alive during Robert’s Rebellion?
I don't see why Robert is making that marriage. He's not thinking about a Stark-Baratheon alliance, he is like the washed-up jock dad trying to redo the missed opportunities of his youth through his son. If, for some reason, Joffrey/Sansa can't happen, he's going to want Joffrey/Arya, Tommen/Arya or Tommen/Sansa. Robb/Myrcella does not replicate his foiled dream of a Baratheon (or "Baratheon") with a Stark wife. Furthermore, the Starks are not committing to a marriage like that so early in their kids' lives. It was the exigencies of the situation and the prospect of Sansa being queen that cinched the deal. If Robert has no sons (the only reason I can see him trying for a Stark marriage to his daughter) Stannis is the heir, and Shireen is, by far, the more attractive Baratheon bride for Robb. If Jaime Lannister is at the ToJ, I think he hands over Lyanna. He does not have the same blind obedience and institutional devotion that the others do. He objected to Aerys raping and abusing the queen, and while he might not have spoken up about the Stark executions, the other Kingsguard clearly saw something that made them think he needed refresher course on their order's "ethics". What is more important, is that Jaime is not at court to stop Aerys & the pyromancers from destroying the city when Tywin starts sacking it. By the time Ned gets to the Tower, the Kingsguard definitely know what Aerys did and I don't see Jaime retaining any loyalty to a dynasty that did that stuff. Another thing to remember is that he is only a year older than Lyanna, and given his own issues, I doubt he is going to be inclined to keep a brother from his sister, on behalf of a dead prince and king who has burned his father along with the rest of the capital. Normally, I'd be inclined to think that if the OTL trio took down all but Ned & Reed, the upgrade of Jaime over Oswell Whent probably means they all go down. But combat is not a mathematical equation of skill vs skill, and maybe, fighting for his sister is enough to drive Ned to win anyway. Or knowing that Jaime is there instead of Whent, Ned takes some archers and Dustin, Glover, Cassell, Wull & Ryswell all walk away instead. If Rhaelle lived ... I don't know how that changes much. She doesn't have a claim, because she's a woman. Instead, her claim is passed on to her son, Steffon, and then to his son, Robert. MAYBE, if she maintained good relations with her siblings' children, she can ameliorate some of the ill feeling between their families, but Rhaegar's actions alone demand a strong response from the Starks and Robert. Aerys' crimes are intolerable, and nothing that his aunt can talk her grandchildren out of opposing. AT BEST, assuming on the basis of precisely nothing, if he is devoted to her as if she were his own mother, and she were so inclined (and we know nothing about her perspective in that regard or their relationship) she might have been able to persuade him not to murder Brandon & his companions, and possibly even make him see the opportunity to get the Starks & Baratheons and their allies on board with deposing Rhaegar as his heir and accepting Viserys. However, given the very unprecedented nature of the STAB alliance, I think Rickard, Hoster & Jon were planning on something more than a mere social union, and would have demanded a lot more concessions than any Targaryen king, much less a paranoid, violent, sadistic egomaniac like Aerys would be willing to accept without force. So I can't see any path to Rhaelle having much of an effect.
Under what circumstance would Aerys release Jaime from Kings Landing? He wasn’t keeping him there to protect him as a Kingsguard, he was kept there to deter Tywin from siding with the Rebels. Rhaegar basically confirms this in the books in Jaime’s chapters when he’s reminiscing and is begging Rhaegar to to take him with him to the Trident
@@enrique7208 Yes, that is all true, so in this hypothetical, maybe Rhaegar could use Jaime's discontent to win over his loyalty, or perhaps he hopes to use him as a back channel conduit to gaining Tywin's support for his own takeover (or as a hostage to ensure Tywin does what Rhaegar wants).
i think that robert either outright kills jon, or if he is somehow persuaded to spare him bc of his love for lyanna, he'd take jon to kings landing as a hostage so no one can tell jon about his origins. maybe he'd claim jon as his own bastard. and then cersei would kill jon. so either way jon would probably die when he was very young
Then the children are murdered by Renly's men, Ned and Renly fall out, possibly with Renly murdering Ned before he can do anything, or Ned having to explain to Westeros why he killed Robert's children and to Stannis why he killed his brother, and Ned goes down in the histories as the Duke of Buckingham to Stannis' Richard III. Best case scenario for Ned is he gets out of KL alive, but in severe disfavor with King Stannis, and painted as the villain of the events at court. Stannis never undergoes the character growth that comes from his humbling at the Blackwater and the North is SOL when the Others come.
@Gunleaver why would stannis hate ned for killing jaimes bastards? Stannis knew they were bastards already. From stannis' pov, ned just removed any and all argument against stannis' ascension as king. Sure if he kills renly stannis may be upset but that hinges on ned having to do that and also stannis not believing ned when he says renly wanted to usurp him.
@@mappingshaman5280 Stannis already resents Ned for having Robert's love and being offered the position of Hand, and in this alternate scenario, Ned looks like a usurper, trying to seize power for himself. The scenario would lead to conflict between Ned & Renly, who would just be trying to clear his own path to the throne, and when the kids were murdered by Renly Ned, as the man in charge, who promotes Stannis for the throne is going to like he is responsible for all the deaths and thus implicating Stannis. Stannis is all about law and justice, and despite his annoyance with his brothers, loves them, and is hurt by their lack of returned love, which compounds his displeasure with them. In OTL, even though he had nothing to do consciously with Renly's death, he is still torn up about it, and determined to avenge Robert despite refusing to call him beloved in his open letter. He would want any necessary deaths done in the law, with a trial, not murders in bedchambers and fighting in the halls of the Red Keep. If Ned & Renly seize control of the castle, Renly is going to be looking for his own power, trying to block Stannis' assent to the throne, and he is going to try to kill Cersei's kids as obstacles to that end. As the one supplying the manpower for their coup, he would not give way to Ned's lawful authority and Ned would have to defeat and kill him to prevent his taking the throne. Ned would be inviting Stannis to take the crown, and so everyone would see him as Stannis' supporter and he (and by extension, Stannis) would get the blame for the deaths of the kids, even if their parentage was revealed after the fact. People would just claim it was all a post-hoc justification and a lie, and Stannis would be seen as the instigator, or at least, the beneficiary, of infanticide. The point is not that Stannis would be angry about the kids' deaths, but that it would be such a mess and leave him looking like the villain or the beneficiary of thuggish actions. Any attempt to seize power with Renly's help would devolve into a messy conflict, because Ned & Renly would be working at cross-purposes. Ned wants Robert's rightful heir to take the crown and Renly just wants the glory. Furthermore, if Renly is supplying most of the manpower, he is not going to listen to Ned when he tries to support Stannis. Renly is all about "might makes right" and as with Stannis in OTL, the only way to keep him from taking the throne would be to kill him. Because Stannis loves Renly, he is not going to be happy with Ned's botched coup killing Renly. He'll be transferring a lot of resentment over the lack of relationships with his brothers to Ned, for taking his place with Robert and killing Renly. Even if he understands that Ned was justified and Renly's actions necessitated it (which I think he would - if he believes otherwise, he's punishing Ned for murder and treason), he will still resent Ned for going along with Renly's coup, and after the fact, it's really easy to say "What were you thinking? Why did you let this idiot take things this far?" Remember, Ned is Stannis' age and Renly more than a decade younger. Stannis will see him as the one who should have been responsible and in control. Especially if he's going to be stealing Stannis' place in Robert's family, he should be doing right by Robert's little brother. It's all very irrational, but that's family feelings. Anyway, that's why I think he would be in disfavor with King Stannis. Because Stannis is just, he would accept that Ned was trying to do the right thing and acting to put the lawful king (Stannis himself) on the throne, and that his actions were justifiable, and not execute or attaint him. But because of his grudges and resentments and failures to form the relationships he wants, he would still be pissed at Ned. Basically, I am just saying that none of the obvious courses of action open to Ned were as easy as people want to believe. Ned was not stupid for passing them up, he took what looked like the best of a series of bad options, and it's only with the ease of hindsight and dramatic irony that we can say he chose wrong.
There’s no way Ned would let Robert go with him to the Tower of Joy. If necessary Ned would have left in the middle of the night while Robert was sleeping. Ned’s group were hand picked by Ned based on their loyalty to him. Ned had some info that Leanna was pregnant (maybe from Assyra Dane). So there’s no way 18:33 he would let Robert go with him if he suspected that Lyanna was pregnant with Rhaegar’s child.
They would lose. The only reason neither faction went to war despite both gathering armies and courting supporters was because of Vaegon election idea. It was after the crushing one to twenty lost that the Velyaron withdrew their army they would effectively have to reconquer the entire seven kingdoms again well being outnumbered and surrounded including there few scattered allies.
They'd get defeated. No one would support them after they lost the Great Council, not even the Baratheons. Rhaenys and Corlys agreed to the Great Council and now would've lost in a 20 to 1 outcome against them. It'd be an act of tyranny the likes that Westeros had ever saw until that point. It'd be agreeing to and then completely disregarding the interests and wants of the nobility. Daemon and Rhaenys probably end up killing each other on their dragons, though it is possible that if only one dies then Daemon would be the one who is most likely left alive, as he would've been the only of the two who were actually trained. Though if Jae was able to muster up some strength and ride Vermithor, he'd go and end Rhaenys quick. Corlys would be imprisoned and executed. Laenor would be taken and prepared to be sent to the Night’s Watch, while Laena is either taken to become a septa or set to marry whatever son Viserys has. Speaking of Viserys, it's likely that he would move to tame another dragon. Nothing states that you can't have two dragons if one dies, and both Aegon II and Rhaenyra thought they could could do it. I'll say that Vizzy I tames Silverwing. As for the scenarios, I'll say that the one with Daemon and Rhaenys both dying, is the one that happens. So Viserys is going to end up being a more attentive ruler, and pay more attention to the realm. Driftmark will go to one of Corlys' cousins. Though the biggest effect now, is that without Daemon around to make the "heir for a day" comment, he never says Rhaenyra is his heir, but even then if he wants to for some other reason. He wouldn't have been able to, thewar with Rhaenys would've assured that, so Aegon is acknowledged as his heir at birth and no Dance of Dragons will happen, or if it does, I wouldn't be the one that happened in canon. Rhaenyra would now probably marry Harwin Strong, Aegon would marry Laena, Helaena and Aemond would probably marry though I suppose that it's possible she could marry a powerful lord like Cregan instead which means Aemond would marry the Baratheon heiress, while Daeron would've been free to follow his heart.
Depends, if they rebel when Daemon has allied with them that could be rather interesting. Like if the Verlaryons rebel with Daemon after the crab feeder stuff then that would get interesting as most of the adult dragons are on their side. But immediately after the great council it definitely goes badly for them.
You mean, what if Renly wasn't Renly? First of all, he's basically the Tyrells' bitch, and they aren't fighting a war to have their son-in-law be the king's brother, especially not to make a daughter of their local troublemaking family, the Florents, queen. So the huge army he shows off to Catelyn is not fighting for Stannis. If the Tyrells are sitting out the war between Baratheon & Lannister and Lannister & Stark, chances are, that just like in OTL, the Lannisters ditch Sansa and offer Margaery Joffrey's hand in marriage. The one difference is that if Renly never proclaims himself, and brings the stormlands over to Stannis, maybe Stannis sends out his open letter in time to reach the northmen & Riverlords, and they decide to back that team, instead of going it on their own. If Stannis doesn't, the chances are, he attacks the city a lot sooner and either kills Cersei & family or sends them running for their lives to Tywin's protection, and either way, is sitting on the Iron Throne well before he was in OTL.
I've seen fanfic in which Cersei and Stannis actually become a happy couple. It's true that the major irritants to Cersei was Robert's infidelity and cruelty, which Stannis would lack. Also, since Stannis wouldn't be movable by Cersei's provocations, she might learn to use logic and reason out of having no other option if she wanted to influence him. This could only be good for Cersei, her relationship with Tyrion, and the kingdom as a whole.
Cersei is a misanthrope, who lusts after power and is not competent to wield it and will never admit that, and blames absolutely every problem she encounters on sexism. Stannis does not like women and is a stickler for his rights and everyone doing their duties. They would loathe each other just as fast as Cersei and Robert did, except Stannis would not even let her have the satisfaction of her petty victories over Robert. She would never get away with her affair with Jaime under Stannis' eye (or be smart enough to refrain) and there would be a war with the Lannisters in short order. Even if it was a situation where she and Jaime were kept apart by their roles, and she had no opportunity to cheat, Stannis is not going to roll over and hand everything in his power over to her cronies and cousins. He's not going to let her get away with her petty cruelties, or spoiling any children she has. And he's going to do all of this with absolutely no consideration or empathy or any attempt to deal with her in any way except strictly by the book. She's going to be miserable in this marriage.
-What if instead of Syrax, Rhaenyra bonded with Vermithor? What if this happens right after she is named as the heir? -What if Rhaegar and Robert killed each other? -What if Ned killed Rhaegar instead of Robert? -What if Jaime didn't lose his hand? -What if Robert sent Joffrey to be fostered in the north or the vale for a few years? -What if Tywin sent his brother Kevin instead of Tyrion to Kings Landing to act as the hand of the king to Joffrey? -What if Daenerys decided to create a new empire in Essos instead of going back to Westeros? never understood why she wanted to go to Westeros, she never really lived there, no family or friends waiting for her, and by going there she is giving up on everything she build in Essos.
- Vermithor is not involved in the fighting in the Dance of Dragons. Rhaenyra's character does not change with the size of her dragon. As it is, in OTL, she does exactly whatever she wants and suffers no real consequences. The one time she is somewhat thwarted, in having to marry Laenor, it was not the relative size of her dragon that forced her to acquiesce. During the war, it was not the size of her dragon that kept her out of the fight, but her sex, her recent pregnancy and possibly her or her court's view that as queen, she shouldn't take risks. Vhagar is still bigger than Vermithor, so they are not going to be any more sanguine about throwing her into combat. The way the death of her canonical dragon was written, I don't think the difference in size between Vermithor and Syrax was going to protect him from the mobs. - All hail King Stannis - Nothing changes. - A lot of character development is cut short. He probably tries to step right back into his old life, but his family dynamics are all messed up. His time apart from Cersei might have resulted in his idealizing her, so that the flesh & blood reality woman he finds at court, who is focused on power and protecting her children, is likely to disappoint him. She, in turn, is going to expect Jaime to be her loyal and obedient thug, and is going to expect him to be on board with Tyrion's execution, and even to serve as her champion if it comes to trial by combat. If he begs off, it's going to cause a fight between them and she is REALLY not going to like him championing Tyrion. It's hard to say which sibling he sides with if Tyrion demands trial by combat (which he might, if he knows Jaime is there at court). There is also the fact that Tywin has never given up on Jaime leaving the Kingsguard and succeeding him as Lord of Casterly Rock. With the precedent of Barristan's dismissal, plus having a Lannister appointee as High Septon and Tywin controlling the crown, he can get away with removing Jaime from the Kingsguard, although there might be issues resulting from that down the road. Jaime won't be happy about Tywin's plan to send him back to Casterly Rock with Tommen, and marry off Cersei again. He might not have the spine or the desire to uphold his honor that he demonstrated on arriving in OTL, but his desires to resume his old place and old relationships are never going to be fulfilled, because his relationships with Cersei, Tywin & Tyrion are all mutually incompatible. His love for his brother is incompatible with Cersei's & Tywin's hatred of Tyrion, especially once they are the legal powers in the realm and have an excuse of regicide to get rid of him. His desire for Cersei and willingness to do whatever she wants, in order to remain her lover is incompatible with his father's dreams for him, and the very conditional nature his of father's affection means that thwarting or denying Tywin on any issue when he is riding high, as the ruler of the realm in all but name, means that Jaime is out in the cold. He can't have the relationships he wants with both of his siblings, because Cersei won't accept it, and Tywin's agenda is incompatible with Jaime's relationship with either of his siblings. And where Jaime in OTL tries to navigate this stuff briefly with the knowledge that he can't solve all his problems with his sword, he is not going to have that uncertainty and nothing to stop him from falling back on his old habits, except that people making his life difficult now are the three people he probably can't kill without a lot more provocation. He probably tries to throw his weight around, makes a mess of stuff and ends up at odds with his family in entirely different ways. - Cersei tries to kill Robert, and the story's main political conflict comes to a head much sooner. - Kevan runs a very conventional preparation for the siege. They probably still try for the Tyrell alliance, but Kevan does not get so tricksy with the Small Council or worry so much about establishing his authority. He probably does a better job of public relations, but he might not be as creative with the wildfire as Tyrion was, or build the chain. Tyrion was shown earlier in the series specifically studying a book about siege engines, so I think that means he is the sole inspiring force behind that development. Without the chain & wildfire, Stannis is taking the city and Kevan, Cersei & whichever kids are present die. On the other hand, Jaime has a more comfortable captivity, since Kevan is not going to try breaking him out using criminals, so there is no excuse for Edmure to throw him in the dungeon. Tyrion, remaining with Tywin, does not nearly get his opportunities to shine as he did alone. He is not going to give Tywin any brilliant advice that will change his father's mind, but given Tywin's tendency to give him dirty thankless jobs, he might end up being sent to hunt down Beric & Thoros and end up dead at their hands. - Bearing in mind that the writers outright stated that things happen on the show because they want them to happen, regardless of characterization, the reason she went home to Westeros is irrelevant. However, in the actual story, Dany has a deep longing for home and family, and has grown up thinking of Westeros, the land of her birth, as home. She might not ever, so far as she knows, have blood kin, but what she has of her family is their ancestral castles of Dragonstone and the Red Keep and the dragon skulls being kept in the latter. The only path to connecting with her family would be to reclaim the kingdom they forged. We don't know what form the Others' attack will take, but given that Dany survived the pyre & got her dragons through an actual miracle, the implication is pretty clear that without Dany, the Others are not going to be defeated. So, she establishes an Empire in Slavers' Bay, eradicates the Ghiscari slaving culture, probably is forced to go after Volantis, because they can't tolerate her emancipation movement, and in the midst of her conquests, the Others come from Westeros to keep up their own mission of destruction, and that's where she fights them. Again, it's impossible to say what it would take to defeat them without GRRM's word on the matter, so we can't predict how that will go.
I currently reading a game of thrones, and I think George r r martin made a interesting what if himself. Little finger tells Ned to separate the Lannister bastards from Cerci, then help Joffrey and he shall worship you by the time he’s ready to be king, and we’ll, little finger tells Ned to marry Arya to Tommen, and Marcella to Rob
Littlefinger is not giving good advice here. Remember, his objective from the outset is to bring down the Starks and Tullys for daring to think a critical marriage alliance between their families was more desirable than handing Catelyn over to some charity project foster kid to use as a masturbation device, and since they came to court, he has added, groom their daughter as his replacement-for-Cat sex toy. What he is offering Ned is the chance to pay Littlefinger to set him up to be crushed between Tywin & Stannis. A. Tywin is NOT going to let someone else be Hand & regent for HIS grandson. Cersei's royal husband dying and leaving Tywin's grandson on the Iron Throne as a minor has been on Tywin's vision board for over thirty years. He is not going to let Ned Stark swoop in and steal his dream. Cersei is also not going to cooperate with any Hand or Lord Protector other than her father, and will immediately start wailing to the heavens about this interloper harming her family, and demanding Tywin come in and save them. B. Stannis is not going to accept Ned ruling in the name of Joffrey. He knows the truth about the twincest, and he's going to fight for his right to the throne. He's also not stupid, and already skipped town to avoid being assassinated by whoever got Jon Arryn, so Littlefinger's assumption that they will get rid of Stannis so casually is dubious as well. C. Renly knows about the twincest, which is the reason why the Tyrells went along with his plot. He didn't ride off with Loras to marry Margaery and crown himself at Highgarden all to avenge Ned. Renly has no interest in anyone wearing the crown but himself, and the Tyrells only care about marrying the king. So they are going to be on board with whomever they think has a good shot at knocking Sansa's husband off the Iron Throne, if he will marry Margaery. Renly & the Tyrells will be spreading the news about the paternity of Ned's sons-in-law the moment it becomes advantageous to them (i.e. the moment Stannis is out of the picture & Renly is the Baratheon heir). Just as with his telling Lysa to "warn" the Starks that the Lannisters were a threat, and his hiding Cat in a brothel and his helping Ned with his investigation, Petyr is trying to steer Ned into a conflict with someone who might have the political and military power to destroy the two families he resents for depriving him of Catelyn. His advice to Ned to ride Cersei's children to power is just more of the same, setting him up as a target for both the Baratheons and the Lannisters, while rewarding Littlefinger for his "help", such as by giving him titles and lands and offices and then the moment it looks like there is a chance, he'll betray Ned to the Lannisters or Renly. The most actual sincere help he would give would be to do what he can to see that Ned defeats Stannis, with whom Petyr has zero chance of ingratiating himself. But for a "lordly" man like Renly or the Lannisters, who have no time for the bureaucracy and accounting parts of government, Petyr is an ideal minion. Honest, hardworking rulers, who pay attention to the details and want things done right for the sake of the realm, like Stannis & Ned, are a problem for someone as corrupt as Littlefinger. He just wants to trick Ned into behaving dishonestly, to degrade himself before stabbing him in the back, so Littlefinger can tell himself that Ned is no better than Petyr himself.
Him and Tywin would still be best friends, Robert's Rebellion never happens because Aenys wouldn't have burned so many bridges for other Lords to support the movement, etc
@@lukejones7164 Would they? Why does everyone accept the assertions of the Lannister simps that the breech was Aerys' fault, and not that of his fellow supervillain and mass murderer, Tywin Lannister? Why would Ser Ilyn Payne go around stating in public that Tywin was the REAL ruler and not Aerys, unless he was very certain that this was an idea Tywin very much approved of? See, that's the point of Varys' riddle, that power lies where men believe it lies. If the notion that Tywin is the true ruler of the realm gets enough traction, people will start treating Tywin as the true ruler. Any time Aerys gives an order, they will look to Tywin before carrying it out. If they have news or business, they will go to Tywin first with it. If they want something from the crown, they will go to Tywin with generous gifts and promises of reciprocal support in exchange for his generosity. Tywin is always primarily concerned with his own aggrandizement and ego and getting power. Maybe Aerys started lashing out at Tywin because he could see that this was going on, and Tywin was encouraging it, and Aerys was simply flailing in an attempt to make everyone fear and respect him. At the end of Book 2, after defeating Stannis, the Lannisters have a big celebratory audience in the throne room, where all the heroes of the battle get their rewards, and Tywin enters, riding on a horse in full armor. This is not how one approaches a king. But walking in on foot rendered tiny before the vast size of the Iron Throne, is symbolically placing yourself lower than the king, which is more or less the point of a throne room. But Tywin will not have that. Instead, he comes in like a conqueror, who is claiming the throne as his own possession. Rather than approach as a supplicant or subject, he has Joffrey come down from the throne to him. The point of these ceremonies before a king's throne is to aggrandize the KING, to emphasize the KING'S power and greatness to the watching court, and to force everyone to acknowledge the king as the supreme and superior to everyone. Even when the point is to honor someone for service to the crown or nation, the pageantry and emphasis on the King's greatness and majesty makes the reward that much more significant, that it is being handed down from one so high and mighty. But rather than let the ceremony work in the usual manner, rather than let his grandson kick off his reign in glory, so that everyone is impressed with Joffrey right off the bat (for the Reach, West and Stormland nobles, this is their first experience of King Joffrey), Tywin rearranges the choreography to make it clear that he stands above the king. This is exactly the opposite of Catelyn's decision to let Robb remain in control of the army when she joins him before marching south, to buff his public image with the lords he is going to need to rule, even though she is hoping that will not be for a long time in the future, because they are going to save Ned. If Tywin would not even concede the spotlight and glory and illusion of rule to his own grandson, the future of his family line, his legacy for the ages, how can we possibly believe that he was going to play nice with Aerys and be a good and faithful servant?
You made an error as at least in the show Stanis mentions to davos how his smuggled food saved his wife when reminiscing about the siege of Storm’s End
I knew what I said towards the end with Stannis. I already mentioned this in another comment but it really depends on which continuity you want to follow. In the show yes, Stannis was already married, but in the books he wasn’t married until after the rebellion ended and the book variant is what I went with towards the end.
Oh interesting! I think if the events played out as you said up until Robert’s death that there would be a potential Targaryen resurgence. The rebellion was as much a personal grievance of Robert as a political overthrow of the Targaryens. The houses that were supporting the Targaryens in the war could conspire to bring Viserys and Daenerys back to Westeros and, since they are both still young, the heads of those households would attempt to exert control over young king Viserys in order to advance their own cause or just ruling as a small council as Viserys’s regents. Assuming that the former Targ loyalists could remove the Baratheon strongholds from the throne long enough to return Viserys there and crown him, I think there would be a strong possibility of a full Targaryen return. Albeit in a diminished capacity even beyond what the family had fallen to before. I think in these circumstances it would be very likely that Tywin would flip to the Targaryen side again and leverage his relationship with the mad king to seat himself as Viserys’s chief advisor in his minority. Given that Viserys was so young when the rebellion ended and then the battles to beat back the rebels to reinstate him, this could very effectively make Tywin the ruler of the seven kingdoms for a solid decade. I could see him exerting influence over Viserys the same way he did over Tommen. Which could be very interesting to see what that does to Viserys’s character. I think there’s a branching point from that theory if Ser Willem Darry returns with the Targaryens. If for any reason he doesn’t, I think Tywin tries to marry Cersei off to Viserys - he could make the case to the rest of the small council that Targaryen inbreeding had led to the mad king, so for the good of the realm, the targaryens must give up the practice entirely. It’s the perfect excuse to marry Cersei off the Viserys, and leaves him with a princess to marry off to a lord of Westeros who won’t be marriageable age for years to come- allowing him to leverage the possibility of betrothing Daenerys to a lord or his heir for years. This kind of chessplaying with very young surviving heirs to violently overthrown monarchies happened repeatedly throughout medieval and renaissance history, which GRRM loves to draw on. So I think the rebellion would be a devastating and potentially final blow to the Targaryens over the long run (a lot of royal child-survivors of revolutions are killed early in life and the thrown changed hands again) but I don’t think Stannis could hold the throne. There wasn’t enough widespread loyalty to the Baratheons to support their continued line. It would have been a failed rebellion.
@@Gunleaver The Cat Incident refers to the time that Joffrey took one of Tommen's pet cats, slit open its pregnant belly with a knife, and presented the tormented mangled corpses of the kittens to Robert as some kind of macabre trophies.
@@Balorak146 OK, makes sense. I cannot emphasizes this enough, but *Robert is the single person most responsible for the evils of Joffrey's reign* is the answer to your question. There was no need for a wake-up call for Robert. He KNEW. He is fully aware of the problems with Joffrey. He has already been awakened. The problem, as always with Robert, is that he's too damn lazy to get out of bed, and as the king, no one can make him. Robert simply cannot be bothered to do the right thing or put in an ongoing, sustained effort to address any problem. Robert never bothered to correct Joffrey's problems because it was too much trouble to endure Cersei's opposition or complaints, too much hassle to even do something like send Joffrey to foster with someone who can take a stab at correcting his problems and inculcating some discipline into him. Another option might be finding some legal way to declare him unfit to reign and disinherit him, but Cersei will not tolerate that, even if it means the crown going to her other son. She views Joffrey's most egregious personality disorders as manifestations of strength, and would bend all her efforts to opposing any effort to curb his behavior or remove him from the succession. Robert could get his way, of course, he has all the power in that relationship & situation, but he's too lazy, too selfish to make the effort. The most he can really do for any problem is find a solution he hopes will be fun for him, like making Jon or Ned his Hand, and shifting the burden of rule onto them. That is it. That's the entirety of his solution to any and all political problems. Count on Jon, then Ned, to make it go away, as long as they don't ask him to do too much to support their efforts. The closest he came to a solution to the Joffrey/cat incident was to float the idea of bringing Mya Stone to court. I have no idea how that was supposed to work with regard to Joffrey, but it's a case of Robert falling back on his happier time of life and hoping that dragging people from that time into his current orbit will make him happy again. His kid is a psychopath? Solution is to try to recapture the happy memories of playing with his first kid. His elderly head of government & father-figure died? Summon his foster-brother to take his place. Forget the brother he already has at court, who worked closely with Jon Arryn, and is fully aware of all the business of the realm, nope, lets put the rule of the country on hold to make a months-long journey to visit his old friend and invite him back to take the job that's not to his liking, will part him from the family that is clearly Ned's preferred life, and will take him quite a while to play catch-up with the business of the government. Hell, AFTER the cat incident, after Joffrey skinned Tommen's pet deer, after who knows how many other problems, Robert proposed a marriage to the daughter of his best friend. He knew he was saddling Ned's daughter with a sadistic brat, and did not care, because for him, the important thing was vicariously reliving his idealized relationship by creating a second betrothal of a Stark daughter and a Baratheon son.
Going to have to hard disagree about the fight outside going remotely close to the same I do NOT see Robert surviving that fight, its due to a few things first off he'd already be wounded you did state he would be coming in with a degree of injury so that does hinder his fighting ability, the second reason is he would try and single out Arthur Dayne first and vice versa, the reason being the two would be the most experienced fighters; Howland was able to kill the Sword of the Morning but that was only after specific circumstances not right out of the gate, Arthur would hard focus Robert to avenge the death of his prince and friend Rhaegar and Robert would 100% want to fight the Sword of the Morning for his own ego, this would be a much more interesting fight if Robert was coming in at a full strength uninjured but he is and when fighting against the Sword of the Morning you need to bring your absolute best and the fact is I don't think Robert would be able to kill him and I don't see anyone able to help him with that fight because they'd be tied down fighting the White Bull and Oswell Whent who are powerhouses in their own right. It required some very specific circumstances for Howland to kill Arthur Dayne that being Howland played dead making Dayne think he was down for the count and then got up and backstabbed him but that was only after Ned was the only man left standing at that point, meaning Robert would be dead before you could get inside the tower of Joy meaning you'd only have Ned and Howland left standing at the end of the fight it just means Ned would be less beat up by the end of things the real change comes with Robert dying here its just not happening there was no way he'd walk away from the Tower alive; it also doesn't help that Robert is more of a fury fighter which can have advantages against a number of opponents but not the Sword of the Morning I'd also argue that his war-hammer is not the best weapon to use when wounded and is certainly not a weapon I'd use against an opponent with a greatsword and especially when that sword is Dawn a weapon that is magical in nature and may actually be secretly Lightbringer the sword to bring the dawn. I'm just saying there isn't a way that the fight plays out the same way as in canon, not if we are using the Books for it because then you run into the problem, you'd also assume that Robert could beat the Sword of the Morning because he would be the priority threat Ser Arthur goes after for multiple reasons and it would be a close fight that could go either way but only if both combatants were at there best coming into this Robert is wounded going into the fight according to the assumption beforehand, and that wound puts him at a disadvantage, not a major one but a enough of one to allow the Sword of the Morning to kill him even if it means he'd die soon after. And even if he did manage to get thru the fight without dying if he so much as tries to hurt Jon Ned will kill him to protect his family first and foremost, especially considering the fact he was already angry about what happened with Elia and her children.
Ned never used Ice in combat. It was a ceremonial greatsword that he only ever used for executions. The sword itself was too large to be used effectively in an actual fight. So if he were to fight Robert it would have been with his regular sword or with Dawn, depending on who was holding it at the time
I think Ned would need some other lie to protect Jon. He was able to claim Jon is his because he spent a long time in the south but with Robert dead he would need to inform everybody about that fact. He could be summoned to the capital by Stannis or maybe he would have to go there himself with Robert's body. There isn't enough time for a child to be born
One positive outcome from all this: Ned might have a better relationship with Jaime. Since he learned the hard way himself that kingslayers sometimes have good reasons for what they did. Jaime isn't really the type who thinks he has to justify what he does to anyone, especially Ned. But just not having Ned sneer at him, and maybe even throw him a pitying look could at least take some of the bitterness out of their relationship. We can't really tell at what point they'd have opportunity to talk, since Jaime will be sent home by Stannis and Ned will return to Winterfell. But I do think at some point Ned will try and ask Jaime what happened the day he killed King Aerys, if only because he wants to know how he should feel about killing Robert. Whether Jaime would tell him the whole story, or Ned will admit he was too quick to jump to conclusions might determine where they'll stand with one another and against Stannis.
I’m pretty sure it depends on the continuity. In the show Stannis was married since the Rebellion and before Robert. In the books he got married after the Rebellion and after Robert.
Imma have to disagree with this one. Robert saw himself as a hero and heros don't kill children, (even Jaime acknowledges this or was Tywin) Robert would never order the death of a child especially when it Lyanna's and it's Ned's nephew. Robert would've left him alone, and would've agreed that he was Ned's bastard. So there wouldn't be any reason for Ned and Robert to fight. Also, the Tower of Joy fight would go vastly different, with Robert going, there will be more men with them that were loyal to Ned/Robert. Also, as far as Robert's "hatred" of Targaryens, you are vastly overstating it. Robert never even attempted to harm Viserys/Dany, until he learned she had married Drogo because he knew she'd invade, which he was right about.
He left the Lannisters, the Mountain, and Ser Amory untouched even though they killed infants and raped their mother while using the babies' blood as lube. Wtf are you talking about?
That's not true. Robert sent tons of assassins after the targaryen children whilst he reigned. Its stated that often viserys and dany would leave what ever city they were in hours ahead of assassins
If Robert wanted to be peaceful he could allow Jon to live but demand that he would be sent to the wall when he was of age. That way he would get to live but also not become an enemy of Robert and the Baratheon dynasty.
Robert was wrong about the invasion. They were only motivated to fight, because of the assassination attempt. Otherwise, Khal Drogo had no interest in pursuing an iron chair for his son. It was specifically his campaign to collect plunder and slaves to fund the expedition to Westeros that saw his death, and set off Dany's plotline. Otherwise, Drogo goes on with a normal life, and Rhaego has no real motive to listen to his mother's stories of a land she never saw herself, much less seek to conquer the realm to rule in Westerosi fashion.
What if Rhaenyra had claimed Vaeghar instead of Syrax as her dragon? What if Alicent died in childbirth after giving birth to Aegon? What if Rhaenyra and Daemon stayed in King's landing after getting married? What if Luke threw Aemond of Vaeghar 's back, but soon after gets eaten by Vaeghar ? (Similar to " What if Rhaenys wins Rooks Rest?" )
@@charlottewalnut3118 I mean, would he ever find out? Even in this timeline the only witnesses are Ned and Howlad Reed. They could make the case, as the video does, that Robert's wound caused his downfall. Stannis would never come to question the words of his brother's best friend
What if Maegor the cruel, before becoming the crule, in his youth, would have joined the Nightswatch. We learned in house of the dragon that Aegon conquert the seven kingdoms because of his dream about the song of ice and fire but despite that he didn't seem to do much in preparation for that regarding the Nightswatch. He seemed to simply hope that his descendant, the prince that was promised would solve it all but what if he thought differently and tried to support his descendant as best as possible by strengthening the Nightswatch similar to how the Starks do it, by sending at least one of their own to the Wall each generation which would start with his own second born son, Maegor. Could be a really interesting one, both immediately and down the line with the potential of dragonriders joining the Nightswatch. Additionally it would also make things a bit more interesting if in this time line, with Maegor on the Wall, his dragon egg hatched when he was a child, making him the first dragonrider to join the watch.
The Watch can barely feed themselves, let alone a dragon. It would make them dependent on regular subsidies from the throne, which would inevitably lead to becoming a royal institution and there goes the neutrality of the Night's Watch. A dragon also makes them too powerful. They make a point of not having any defenses against the realms of Men, only using the Wall to defend themselves against the wildlings and the Others. When portions of the Watch have mutinied in times past, or its leaders have tried to claim power, the Starks are able to easily defeat them, because of that deliberately self-imposed weakness. But with a dragon on the Wall, suddenly the Watch is a major power in Westeros in its own right. What if the Targaryen scion decides that he wants to be King Beyond the Wall, or Lord Paramount of the North? No, dragons on the Wall are a bad idea, and ultimately, rather unnecessary, given their ability to fly, so the dragon riders would be the fastest forces to arrive in response to a call for royal aid.
@@Gunleaver I agree with the notion and yes the Watch would be more dependent but it still would be interesting if not even more so. How would a dependent Nightswatch akt or change? Would the long night be prevented because the dragons torched the north beyond the Wall or would the others cross the Wall sooner because they had a dragon on their side! Other than that you could still ask yourselves what would change if the Targaryens would support the Nightswatch more aktivlie through joining them and legislation. It would definitely be an interesting Story. Maegor and possibly also Jaehaerys on the Wall!! What would change? And even if there are no Dragons on the Wall the fact that every generation sends at least one Targaryen to the Wall would change a lot!
A pretty simple one is what if Robert dismissed Jaime from the Kings Guard? Jaime had no love lost for the Targaryens but what if he listened fo reasons ans didnt allow Jaime to keep his WhiteCloak. Tywin gets his heir back, Jaime doesnt get to carry on his affair with Cersei.
Tbh I dont think Robert would kill Jon. He definitely didnt really love Lyanna, he loved the idea of her, but not the woman. I feel like he was able to accept Elia and her childrens death as neccessary damage, but I think he’d know His best friend’s nephew was a bit too far. He might just turn his head the other way, trusting his honorable best friend, to raise Jon as a bastard.
4:00 whai if ned is angry abot elia and children because he suspects a liana pregnancy? Robert enraged kills the babe and mother? How does ned find the tower of joy? Who whispers it to him?
Ashara Dayne is the most likely to have told him where to find his sister. The Daynes have a wet-nurse in their service, Wylla, whose service goes back years, whom Ned claims to Robert, and the Daynes have told Ashara's nephww, is the mother of Jon Snow. Ned recalls that "they" found him still holding Lyanna's hand after she died, so there was someone at the Tower besides Ned, and Howland after the fight. The most likely candidate, with absolutely no other names we know of, would be Wylla, a wet nurse of House Dayne. The Tower of Joy is almost certainly on or near the Dayne lands, so Arthur would have relied on his family for services outside the purview of a Kingsguard knight for his captive/guest, Lyanna. Like a wetnurse to help her give birth and care for the baby afterward. That Ned took the trouble to return the Dayne's family sword and that they have supported his cover story for Jon's parentage all these years suggests a very positive relationship between House Dayne and Ned Stark, to the point that Lord Dayne, brother of Ashara & Arthur, had a son who is called by the same nickname. After Arthur requested the services of a midwife/wetnurse, that would have been enough of a clue to send him in the right direction when Ned came looking for his sister. Since he noted the absence of Dayne, Whent & Hightower at the critical theaters of the Rebellion, they would have been his primary leads when looking for Lyanna, especially given the known friendship of Rhaegar with Arthur & Whent. Since House Whent was based in Harrenhal in the Riverlands, he would have known they would not have been there, so the obvious choice is to head west to first Starfall and then Oldtown to see if the KG went back to their families. They get to Starfall, and Ashara, who danced with Ned at Harrenhal, and had an affair with him or Brandon, and who both Barristan and Cersei believe had a child as a result, tells Ned what she knows, due to her feelings for whichever brother, and out of respect for their caring for Lyanna. Even if Arthur didn't tell them why he needed a wet nurse, that's not a huge leap to figure out. So Ned leaves his escort at Starfall and takes only his closest companions, all northmen in whom we can see close personal connections to the Starks, whom he can trust to be invested in Lyanna's safe return and be discreet about any scandalous discoveries they might make. I think Ned would be angry about Elia & the kids just on their own merits, but if he knew that Lyanna went with Rhaegar voluntarily, that would probably have been a concern in the back of his mind. Benjen almost certainly helped Lyanna with her stunt at Harrenhal, and even if Ned was too absorbed with his own issues (i.e. a romance with Ashara) to notice what was going on with his little sister, Benjen teased her about her attraction to Rhaegar, which means he likely knew enough to make an educated guess about her level of consent in the abduction and would have told Ned all he knew before Ned marched off to war to get her back. So there is a lot of support in the subtext for your idea.
I gotta disagree with something that I hear in most videos about Robert’s Rebellion. He didn’t fight the war for Lyanna. Robert fought for survival. It was the Starks that rode to King’s Landing, and the Starks that died. The love of Robert and Lyanna is just the story everyone tells to romanticize it. This is a common theme with GRRM. The stories of war are romantic, the reality is not.
What if after Robert’s Rebellion Ned becomes king and separates the seven kingdoms into nine kingdoms with different kings since the Targaryens are gone.
@symbolofpeacetv1578 Yes, it is. It's likened to the war of the roses, which took place at the latter end of the medieval period. Prostitution existed back then, too, it always has in some form. But Lyanna and Robert were high born. Robert wouldn't have dishonoured Lyanna by sleeping with her out of wedlock, and he loved Ned like a brother so again he wouldn't have done it. Apart from all this, if Jon was Roberts, Lyanna wouldn't have had to hide her pregnancy or his existence from him. It wouldn't make sense.
I’m reading the first book again and I had a thought. Was is Cat got pregnant the night she and Ned got the letter form her sister? She thinks about it and prays that she will, saying she still young enough to give him another son. What changes in a pregnant Cats actions? Does the red wedding still happen? Does she ever leave Winterfel and if so do the ironborn still invade?
What if Dameond started a civil war. What if robb stark joind Stannis. What if Stannis won battle of ice. What if Tywin survied what if joffrey survied what if tommen survied. What if edmure killed Mountain. What if robb married frey. What if balon attacked westerlands. What if cat never freed Jaime
Another interesting one but sorta opposite to this. What if Ser Arthur Dayne was at the trident? I dont mean just there like Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Lewyn Martel, i mean he was actually close to Rhaegar so they can 2v1 Robert
Then Robert's guards and sworn swords swarm them. They might back off if Robert & Rhaegar are both amenable to a personal duel, but not if a Kingsguard is trying to interfere.
After going through the trauma being locked up in his own castle having to eat his own men rats and cats I'm pretty sure Stannis wants to let Jamie go from the King's Garden just let that be it it'll be a little ;-) nudge nudge Tywin stay away here's your son I don't want him on the kingsguard there you go I'm pretty sure Stannis does not want to piss off Tywin not this early after not only losing his brother but also the trauma still being locked in that castle
Nope. Nothing we know about the siege of Storm's End suggests it did anything to weaken or soften Stannis' character or resolve. He still made the man who brought critical supplies to save the garrison, lose his fingertips to pay for his old crimes. Stannis is all about the law and the rules. He would have had Jaime take the black to punish him for breaking his Oath, sparing his life as a reward for removing Aerys (he explicitly says in the books that that should have been Jaime's fate). The law says the Kingsguard serves for life, and death or the Night's Watch are the only ways out. If anything, he's going to be punishing Tywin for murdering Elia and her children. Stannis is not going to be cowed by Tywin, when he has the backing of the coalition that just took down the Targaryens. Jon Arryn also does not have the same good relationship early in the regime that he will later form with Stannis by the time of his death, or that he had from Robert from before the Rebellion, so he might not have the same luck convincing Stannis to marry Cersei,
yeah i do think in that situation Ned would kill Robert as Barristan the freaking Bold was cautious about confronting him in battle he is the warden of the north and one of their strongest warriors "1 northener is equal to 10 southeners" they north are the ASOIAF equivalent to russians, and russians are crazy strong, and just crazy and if he wields Dawn, tho it is semi sentient so it would have to allow Ned to do so but due to it's possible connection to the PTWP it will probably allow Ned to defend Jon or he wields Ice which is very light and has more Reach than Robert's hammer which might even broken by Dawn during the confrontation as Dawn is a strong sword and Arthur would obviously try and dispatch the Hammer as it is highly effective against plate armor or Howland reed would once again come in clutch either way Robert dies
Except he does not wheeled ice that great sword is used only as a ceremonial item for executions his family has not used that in battle for more than 300 years in the setting that he is in the reason being it is simply too large. Robert could probably use it and the mountain could definitely use it. The hound could even use it, but Ned himself has never used it in battle and even openly states such it is only an executioners blade, he would get plowed through like his own sister
@@charlottewalnut3118 no but seriously he could probably just weird dawn Weather dawn is sentient and chooses it's weirder or it can only be weirded by those of high skill doesn't really matter Ned would definetly be able to use it either way as is he is the wolf that was promised
If robert had gone to the tower of joy with ned, he wouldnt have left the tower of joy with ned. Because he would have wanted to kill baby jon no matter what, that then turns ned and howland against robert an he would have died at the hands of ned and howland and buried with dane and hightower
What if Robert decided to legitimise his b daughter to marry her to Joffery (mainly due to fear of what kind of king he might be), similar to how Jacaerys almost married Helaena? How would Cersei and the Lannisters react? How would this influence Neds actions when he discovers the truth of Joffery's birth?
Every nobleman with a daughter aged between slightly older than Mya Stone, down to a newborn, will be outraged and loudly denounce such a union. The Faith would not be thrilled with it either, having made a singular exception for House Targaryen, based on their unique qualities such as riding dragons. Robert took pains to separate his reign from the Targaryens, in the public eye. He can't just walk it back to get an incestuous marriage. Cersei would absolutely go apeshit and so would Tywin. They would especially oppose such a unilateral Baratheon-themed move. Cersei feels threatened by any woman who can claim to be a queen who is younger than she. Tywin would never accept a bastard, even a legitimized one, as a spouse for his grandson, especially not the one through whom he planned to establish a Lannister-blooded dynasty. If by some miracle, Robert managed to get the marriage to go through, it would not change a thing about Ned's actions. He has no particular affection of affinity for Mya that he would through out his morals and principles for her husband. If Joffrey had been a good kid and married Sansa and treated her well and they were in love and had children, Ned would still oppose his claim to the throne if he discovered Joffrey's paternity. For Mya? It would never come into his calculations, aside from maybe arranging to have their union annulled for being wed under fraudulent terms, and try to arrange something better for her.
Nothing changes. He's too young to consummate, too weak to protect her against Joffrey, and not one thing in this scenario deters Littlefinger from spiriting her away from the wedding in the confusion of Joffrey's death. Once she disappears, the Tyrells would quickly push to have the marriage annulled so Tommen could marry Margaery and Cersei would be just as hard-pressed to refuse.
I disagree with your assumption that Stannis would be made king without drama. With Robert dead and Ned the only witness, and the Targaryens wiped out, this is the EXACT scenario for a Great Council. All the high lords must consent to who will become the next ruling dynasty. Stannis, even as Robert’s true heir in the main timeline, doesn’t actually want to be king. Ned doesn’t want it either. Tywin REALLY wants it, but he’s a pariah diplomatically for joining the war late and… the sack. Martell and Tyrell are out for supporting Aerys, Greyjoy are not even considered. That leaves Arryn and Tully. Jon Arryn has long failed to produce children at this time, meanwhile Hoster Tully has three grown children, one with a son (Robb) of her own already. Hoster has marriage alliances with the North and Vale, guaranteeing 3 of 8 votes. A Cersei-Edmure marriage is easily arranged, making Hoster Tully the elected Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.
Why would anyone accept Hoster as the king? Robert & Stannis have the Targaryen blood to step in as the next closest to the throne. None of the others have any such claim. Ned & Jon are not going to vote for Hoster just because he strong-armed them into marrying his daughters, they are going to expect him to keep on supporting them and their cause. That WAS the price of their marriages, that Hoster support them in their fight to solve their problem with the crown, which is not solved until they get a king they want. According to George RR Martin, the rebels acclaimed Robert king during the fighting, and before the battle where he killed Rhaegar. So he was already their king before Rhaegar or Aerys were killed, before the Sack of Kingslanding, before the siege of Storm's End was lifted, and long before the Tower of Joy. And that means, if Robert dies any time from the Trident to the Tower of Joy, up until Joffrey is born, Stannis becomes king.
Piss poor analogy! You use Roberts feeling after years of strife with Cersei and the realm his guilt of the death of the former kings children at the hands of the Lannister's be the basis for his hatred, but it would not have fully formed yet, not ben fostered by the Lannister's, Little finger or Varas. He Loved Ned's sister. He may have been broken Hearted but not killed her son. nor do I think Ned would have been brother like friends friends with a Man that would kill children! Exiled yes Murdered No not at that time!
Robert didn't really love Lyanna, not enough to get to know the real girl, or prioritize her in his life. Not even enough to avoid hooking up with a prostitute during the war, while he was wounded and supposed to be hiding from the royal forces. A better argument could be made that the lip-service devotion he pays to her memory is what has actually grown over time, rather than his bitterness or hatred. Lyanna has become "the one that got away" and a synecdoche for all the ways his life has been a disappointment. He has placed her on a pedestal and made her the point at which everything went wrong for him. All his current unhappiness he now has retconned as the result of Lyanna's death. He loves a fantasy Lyanna, who will always help him do the right thing and be nice to him and supportive and fun and never balk at having sex (maybe even down for some threesomes!) or be upset at his occasional meaningless dalliances, and their kids would look like proper Baratheons and would love Robert and look up to him and the boys would be badasses and smart and chivalrous and the girls would be sweet and beautiful and they would all make him proud. He would need alcohol so much or eat his problems, and so he would still be in shape, and he'd do better at ruling, because Lyanna would know the right thing to say or do to get him motivated. Robert loves this fantasy and would not take kindly to any disruption of that fantasy. That Lyanna ran away from a marriage with him, that Rhaegar had her consent and took her virginity willingly, and that she bore his child would absolutely cause Robert to lose his shit. If he could sign off on the murder of a baby who did him no harm, just because it was fathered by Rhaegar on a woman who was nothing to Robert, how much worse would he feel towards a child of that same Rhaegar, who had "stolen" the womb that was Robert's property? Where dead Lyanna represents the happy life he wishes he had, Jon would represent the ruination of that idealized dream. He would be to Robert what Tyrion is to Tywin, especially, if, like Tyrion, his mother died giving birth to him. And lets not forget that the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar was why Aerys sentenced Robert to death in absentia. It was a direct threat to his own life and position. Robert tells Ned at one point "Rhaegar won, damn him.... He has Lyanna, and I have her (Cersei)". This suggests either Robert knows on some level that Lyanna returned Rhaegar's interest and went with him willingly (in which case, Jon is still the embodiment of the relationship between them, that got in the way of his fantasy), or that he does not even recognize Lyanna as a person with her own wishes and will, that she is merely a toy for whichever man has possession of her, and that, regardless of any love that existed between her and Robert, the fact that Rhaegar is in the afterlife with her, means that he "has" her. This is not the mindset of a man who will respect her love for her baby, regardless of its parentage, it is the man who will see that baby as Rhaegar's flag planted on Robert's territory. Jon is dead if Robert learns about him at any point in his life.
@@Gunleaver You know nothing of men especially military men! Rhaegar was the equivalent of a rock star and Robert a teenager, Lyanna his betrothed was his first love. He knew nothing of what she felt of Rhaegar. Many a married women have willingly sleep with celebrities and then slinked bank to their husbands never disclosing their infidelities. In their world men's/lords liaisons outside of marriage was common, almost expected and the bastards given common last name and not the last name of their Father. Robert rescinded the order to have the Dani killed or Ned would not have returned as hand of the King! An order that all the other advisors had pushed Robert to give. He did not give the order to kill the Targaryen women and children but his Father in law did! Rheagar was not a good man he used his status, talent and charm to steal another mans young and impressionable Fiancée divorcing/deserting his wife and children in the process! I doubt that he would be the kind to kill the new born baby of his young hearts desire and his best friends sister not at that time of his life! Remember he did not have the mad kings children killed when he became king!
@@steves6407 Robert is not a military man, he is a nobleman & a great warrior as well as a capable leader, but that is not what our society would call a military man. He does not live a military lifestyle or anything like that. Robert was 20 when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, not a teenager. What do women having secret affairs with celebrities have to do with ANYTHING? Lyanna was not having a secret affair, she was publicly known to be with Rhaegar. Everyone knew of it, and Westeros does not have a celebrity-worshipping culture that makes exceptions for celebrities, or not for women at any rate. Men might be allowed to sleep around, but their wives are expected to remain faithful. Sleeping another man's wife or mistress is considered an insult and a sign of weakness. Even if Robert totally understood and forgave Lyanna and didn't care, he would be looked down on unless he punished Rhaegar. And we see nothing about Robert to indicate he would forgive or understand. I have no idea how his supposedly being a military man has anything to do with his reaction to Lyanna's abduction and defilement. Robert's advisors did not push him to order the assassinations, Jon talked him out of it in prior years, and then, when they got news she was married and then pregnant, ROBERT initiated talk of murder and his advisor just sycophantically supported him. He got Ned to stay on as Hand by making it plain that he was perfectly willing to abandon the realm to be misgoverned if Ned would not stay and help him. He only rescinded the assassination order on his deathbed. Robert might not have given the order, but he became an accessory after the fact and morally complicit in their murder when he had the authority to punish their killers and instead denied the crime.
@@Gunleaver He's not defined my our society. He's defined by His! He fought and led men in battles, he trained in combat skills and tactics. He lived in the field fighting the rebellion. That is a military Man. As one myself I dismiss your narrow interpatation as the only definition of a military man, because he fits the one that was used for 1,000's of years!
@@steves6407 Military man means someone who makes the military his profession, or the central activity of his life. Robert did not. You might as well call him a politician or a city administrator or an attorney at law, because he engages in negotiations, legal work and judges criminal cases. Robert fought a war when a war happened, and the rest of the time, had nothing to do with the military, like so many civilians who are drafted or volunteer in wartime. You might as well call Catelyn a housekeeper or seamstress, or a rich guy who owns a yacht a sea captain. And to keep on track, you called him a military man to refute an assertion I made about his character and choices, as if Robert's supposed military status automatically imparts a certain degree of virtue or imposes a set of values on him. To the extent that military men can be so categorized, it is NOT from combat experience, but from intense, specialized discipline and indoctrination and living the lifestyle. Robert most emphatically did not, and everything about him refutes any claim of discipline. To say "Robert would never do X, because he is a military man" is arrant nonsense. Military men fail in relationships as often as anyone else. They abuse their partners, neglect their children, and commit acts of violence, just like everyone else. Furthermore, for most of history, military men were looked at askance when it came to polite behavior or good treatment of women. Up until about the 19th century or later, soldiers were not welcome in decent society. You seem to think that for 1000s of years, there has been some sort of social continuity regarding the military, when, in fact, military culture has evolved radically, and someone 1000 years ago would not recognize the modern military culture, nor someone from the first century recognize the 11th century military system as a proper military. A Roman legionary would scoff at a medieval man at arms or king calling himself "military." A Roman soldier or modern serviceman would be disgusted at Robert's poor physical condition. The man cannot even fit into his military gear, how can you say he lives the life or that the demands of a military profession have any meaning for him from day to day. The fact that he can't fit into his armor means it's been months if not years since he ever even played at war. If you want to make your point, explain exactly how "He fought and led men in battles, he trained in combat skills and tactics. He lived in the field fighting the rebellion" refutes my claim of his treatment of Lyanna.
