What if ROME Never Accepted CHRISTIANITY? |Alternative History 

What if Civilization started at the height of the Ice age, so like Sundaland, Sahul, Doggerland, Green Sahara, Mega Chad, Cuvette Centrale Lake, Greater Caspian and Aral sea, Eurasian Mammoth Steppe maybe throw in closed gates of Hercules in there for good measure. What if Tang continued their expansion into Central Asia after the Battle of Talas (None of the rebellions that followed after that crippled the dynasty)[Also the Sassanid dynasty had gone to Tang China and its prince was there at the frontlines of the Battles against the Caliphate, I imagine that if the Tang are relatively triumphant he would be made a vassal King or commandary on a Tang Iranian protectorate]. Medieval or Ancient Armenian, Georgian or Pontic Empire, especially a what if Tigranes the Great Conquered Persia and the Levant. What if Sassanids conquered constantinople in the last great war of antiquity, What if Viking expansion took them all the way to West Africa, establishing trade routes btw West Africa and Europe through the Atlantic by 1000 AD. What if Portugal and Ethiopia allied to destroy Mecca. What if Portugal conquered the Mamluks instead of the Ottomans. What if Japan and/or Spain conquered China. I am mostly getting this from the "Samuel Hawley" channel but both had designs on China and China was weaker than it seems at this time, having like a tenth of its actual claimed army, like even the army that defeated the Japanese on land in the Imjin war was smaller than the Japanese one and they were very slow to mobilize, like around a hundred pirates terrorized southern China for over a month ravaging large sections of land before the army came to stop them and it took similarly long to intervene in Korea. Now reaction time would be faster near the capital but the Japanese would in less than a Month have already gotten to a Beijing if not for Admiral Yi harassing their naval supplies, if he someone just dies, the Japanese would have occupied enough of Korea to create their supply lines to reach Beijing. As for Spain,he also made a video on that and they planed to use like 15,000 Spaniards and Ameridian Mexicans with like 25,000 Filipino, Wokou and Japanese mercenaries to invade China from I think Fujin province. Now they tried in OTL to intervene in Cambodia and failed and the Spanish King refused the invasion of China but the Cambodian force was relatively small(like what they used to conquer the Aztecs and Inca) and we could always have a senerio where they and the Japanese collaborate and attack different parts of China, maybe the Spaniards go first in SOuth China and by the time an army is drawn up to attack them down south, the Japanese take down Korea and reach Beijing. As for Japan, Hideoyohi wanted to reach all the way to Northern India so who knows. What if the Ottomans conquered Rome. What if the Rus converted to Islam(AKA more Turkic influences and the Ottomans gain an ally) What if Ashoka's missionaries successfully spread Buddhism to the Greeks in in Persia, Anatolia and Greece/Thrace. What if Carthage opened strong trade links with with West Africa(If they still end up conquered by Rome, let it be in a less genocidal and destructive manner that they can still keep such trade links open.) What if Rome never conquered Britain. What if the Caliphate collapsed earlier, like around the late 850s(or earlier), just like a decade before the Ethiopian Merchant Class were again engaged in a war over Islands of Hanish, Danakil, Farasan and Socotra Islands. Add in Bābak Khorramdin's Khurramīyah revolt and Zanj rebellion for good measure (if it collapses like 820s, 830s these would make more sense) What if Samo's Empire didn't fall apart following his death. What if the Kushite dynatsy was able to hold Egypt from the Assyrians(AKA Continuing the cultural and political unity between Nubia and Egypt for centuries more that was started by the Egyptian New Kingdom). (for a more modern one) What if Biafran, Katangan and Papuan separatism worked out, what would be their effects on the cold war, ideology, the churches, liberation theology, pan-africanism and most importantly the view of the international community on separatism etc. What if instead of joining the Axis, the Japanese kept up their built up image as the non-White great power and defender of coloured peoples by helping their ally of Ethiopia against the Italians. Jabzy had a recent video about how the Japanese were building up this image.

What if Europe converted to Islam? What if Rome converted to the Cult of Isis? What if China converted to Manichaeism? What if Europe worshipped Sol Invictus?

I actually really agree with this concept. We take for granted that Europe is decentralized, but in a lot of places in the world, once centralization happens and enforced, society never recovers. Civilization basically becomes a long string of centralized powerful governments. China and the middle east come to mind. The fact that this DIDN'T happen with Rome was hugely advantageous, and helps explain Europe's later dominance.

@@alexanderryan1176 then why don’t we see other decentralized regions assert similar dominance?

@@NUSORCA The only other region in the world that is analogous to Europe would have been Japan, which became a decentralized land with alot of competing nation states. Japan actually did become powerful in sort of a similar way to Europe but on a smaller scale. What areas were you thinking of?

@@alexanderryan1176 none really I was in awe of the absurdity to randomly hypothesize a positive correlation between decentralization and dominance regardless of people’s sense of belonging within the culture group

​@@NUSORCA haha its not random and its not absurd. Decentralization usually causes alot of smaller entities. This breeds a hyper competitive environment where each small entity has to max out its output (military, economic, sociopolitical) to survive and compete. Centralization usually has the opposite effect, where innovation is slowed down and competition is greatly reduced. 5th century Greece, The German Confederation, Japan are also good examples of this phenomenon.

Roman Republican ere worse one with full j root, the classical and pre dates of roman pagan empire is nice before republic invented

The Goths we're Arian Christians so Hispania, Italy and the Balkans would likely have remained Christian, as well as the Christian missionaries from Ireland into Scotland and northern England. Nevertheless a very interesting situation indeed

@@j.g.4942 - But the Franks were still pagans, and many left their King Clovis I when he converted to Christianity. Likewise, the northern and wester Germanic tribes remained pagan well into the Middle Ages.

@@daniels7907 Absolutely, yet the British and continental germans would be surrounded by Christians to the south, in the sea, and eventually to the east. interesting as you said.

@@j.g.4942 - Especially since Christianity itself was not immune to syncretism, particularly when adopting pagan customs helped win converts in specific areas. This likely would have resulted in a more fragmented Christianity with more active denominations. More so if the Roman Empire wasn't enforcing adherence to a specific doctrine via something like the Edict of Thessalonica.

@@daniels7907 like the syncretism in the Coptic, Slavic, Greek, Ethiopian, and Indian Christian groups. It's fun when you look into those cultures and Christian adaption to them, like Krampus; a figure worshipped then conquered and made a slave by a Christian saint, and so preserved yet in a thoroughly detestable way. (Yes I know it's southern German, but it's the example I know)

Julian was also very superstitious always trusting weird omens signs etc during his campaigns. About the capital, I did that on purpose as in my opinion Gaul- which was essentially the hearth of the Western Roman Empire was so easily lost after the freezing of the Rhine because the center of power was relocated from Mediolanum and Trier to Ravenna. There were of course a dozen of other reasons - the depletion of manpower in the western legions after Frigidus and all the other civil wars, the incompetence of the Chickenboy, and so on.

I dont think they would lose britannia if they could fend off germanic invasions on gaul and this rome after surviving the darkest hour could conquer the weakened germanic tribes by the huns

I see the huns would be a semi ally and be a nuisance for one more century time or even more being rivals against the romans in their weakest moments and also allys and we could see some exchange of troops by money with them also now that some germanic tribes had been conquered or conquered too by the huns they could focus more on the east the sassanids would begin to feel overwhelmed at some moments like the parthians and start scorch earth tactics

@@historyrhymes1701 if they could fend off the germans in gaul they didnt need to withdraw troops from brittania i think

Never the less on that it would stayed the True Religions of humanity and God(s) and not false religions and fantasies like christianity and hebraism as whole.

If Christianity failed maybe not even Islam would exist.

Yes and i think its more probable that this rome would be to strong to not lose britain endure the germanic onslaught and probably not let them in since they can because they aren't in a weakened state and the germanic peoples after this hunnic incursions would be to weakened so the romans could conquer them and most likely they would since they would provoke them

I see the tribes would unite since the romans wont let them in and they have to defend against the huns and huns would be semi allies and be a nuisance for the centuries to come since the huns would see rome as to strong and most likely would side with the east which would be less militaristic than the pagan west in the upcoming civil wars if not the huns would just trade with them and after the conquest of germania they could apply more pressure to the east and the sassanids so they would wage war like their parthian counterparts and eventually with war exhaustion from romans and white huns collapse in mid 500's to another rebellions or be really weak and frail to make a challenge

The west would overpower the less militarized east and now with germania secured could focus on other campaigns like scotland or do campaigns into arabia for imperial legitimacy now the sucess on those campaigns is questionable arabia they could with the help of aksum i think

I can see the fall of Roman Britania but how did the franks overpower a Gaul with peak defence

Much appreciated!

The problem with conquering Germania was that it was sparsely populated and there were no major population centers, i.e. cities, unlike in Gaul. So even if the Romans managed to conquer Germania, their hold over the region would have been strenous at best.

@@haccapel4526 but in 4th century,the Germans should be enough developed

That was like, season 4 of Christians fighting each other already. A long established tradition.

@@danshakuimo lmao true

@@danshakuimo SEASON 4 lmfao, didn't quite catch on last 3 ones.

The empire was significantly christian at the time of Julian. Weakening christian institutions and settlements was literally weakening his empire from the inside. Had he lived on and continued his reign, this process would have only continued and deepened, possibly even leading to civil warfare between christians and pagans. Julian may have been learned, but he wasn't wise.

@@Hoi4o A civil war how exactly? It's hard to even start a Civil War when the vast majority of political and military Leadership would have been Pagan under Julian, so at best you could hope for it a rebellion but that's assuming a rebellion get's off the ground to begin with, especially seeing that given Julian's excellent administrative skills the livelihood of everyday citizens would have improved. If you could give me those documents that tell me exactly the percentage of christianisation of the Empire that would be fantastic, but seeing how in the 390s Eugenius was encouraged by his Pagan majority soldiers to bring back the Altar of Victory in the the Senate house, how in the West they had to pass laws in the early 400s to prevent Christians from converting back to the Pagan faith as well as the existence of Pagan Magistrates up to the reign of Anastasius in the early 6th century, I do believe Christian influence to be overstated. Lessing the tax burden while also increasing it's revenues would have only increased the strength of the Empire which is evident by the reign of Anastasius once again (Which was a time of great religious controversy regarding Monophysites, with religious controversies continuing essentially across the entire history of the Empire so what footing do you stand on regarding your view? Even then given in modern times the bountiful example of many different protestant sects like in the USA certainly doesn't seem to have hurt the country). Granted I am largely ambivalent regarding whether Julian would have had success in creating a more centralised Pagan religion, but his administration skills on its own would have been enough to increase the power of the Empire, creating a more unified Empire as well. While I do not agree with Edward Gibbons view regarding Christianity weakening the Empire I do think the Empire was hurt by not being more tolerant of other interpretations of Christianity particularly Arianism which was popular with the Germanic tribes but given the rejection of it by the Empire it made it harder to integrate the Germanic people's, Julian on the other hand would have been far more welcoming by comparison, granted he would have also certainly avoided the loss of Adrianople given that by that point he would have had over 2 decades of military experience against the Germanic tribes. So what I can very safety assume at the very least is that Julian would have strengthened the Empire as a whole due to his administration, that the weakening of Christian institutions would not have weakened the Empire and that there certainly wouldn't be a civil war seeing that of course the literal Emperor Julian can literally select the Leadership class of the Empire, meaning that there wouldn't really be anyone who could start a civil war, it's not going to magically appear out of thin air, it needs leaders but it's honestly more likely that the Christians will have a greater interest in dealing with the 'heretics' rather than try to start a full scale civil war, especially since he didn't persecute them and the everyday lives of the citizenry would improve due to the decreased tax burden and better governance.

@@Hoi4o You could literally say the same thing about Constantine weakening the already established pagan administration in favor of Christianity for his time, which no Christian would possibly argue that he made Rome weaker from the inside-out. Your entire comment is just christcuck cope

Yeah, very good idea

And i think the west would be more militaristic and the strongest part whike the east would be decadent and unstable with christianity the romans started to be less militaristic and that would make them weak since they have many borders even the east has many

The most likely scenario is the west dominatibg the east and slowly converting it they wouldnt lose britain since they could fend off easily the germanic tribes and conquer germania since its weakened by the hunnic invaders and they would provoke the romans also the huns would be semi allies and be a nuisance for one more century or so

This hunnic empire would see this rome to strong and be semi allies, allies at a time rivals on the weakest hour probably at civil wars if majorian is born on this timeline it could help on adaptation against the huns depending on his lifespan i dont know if he was healthy but he died

Jupiter

Thats a good one, never thought of that before

technically did if you count the hre as a continuation of west rome

Honestly, Serbia is pretty much a part of Russia today.

@@biggie_boss They are very close but they are not one country I think if the Russian empire survived they could’ve annexed Bulgaria which Bulgaria did have a Russian support during the Russian empire and World War II with the Soviet Union so if the Russian empire survived taking over Bulgaria then with Hitler probably trying to convince him to give up occupied Serbia in exchange for land because if Russian empire survived they would’ve annexed some German territory like let’s say east Prussia so that could make both nations part of Russia and also if the ship Russian people to Bulgaria and Russia to make a Russian population in those countries

I'll be damned if Egypt ever fell to that

Yep, Nestorian Christianity was spreading pretty quickly there. One of the last good Sasanian rulers Khosrow II was notoriously tolerant toward Christians being married to a one and that.

The religious issues that Persia had were tied to Zoroastrianism and other new religions, not Christianity. Manicheanism, Mazadakism, some other neo-Zoroastrian sects. Also, the East would still be Christian and this would be post-Constantine's declaration to be protector of all Christians so I doubt. Maybe if they survive Islam tho.

I don't think it will spread to India in this scenario. Arabs actually attacked India multiple times via sea route but they were crushed by Chaulakya and later by Rashtrakuta rulers. Islamic conquest of India occured only via land route .

@@marvelloustraveller3559 to the best of my knowledge they won and lost some sea battles, even taking some elephants back post one of the invasions.

@@ikengaspirit3063 there are many inscription in South India, where Indian rulers boasted about defeating Muslim attacks via sea. Even if they won some sea battles, it was the land invasion which gave them breakthrough into the Indian subcontinent.

Heck yeah it was.

Hopefully, it was!

Maybe we would have Romance speaking Balkans

We would have a cursed romance slavic abomination

@@ghostlion8616 Or greek speaking.

They already did. Khan Asparukh and his people migrated to the Balkans from the territories of Walachia and Moldova which remained under Bulgarian rule till the collapse of the First Bulgarian Empire. There was also a sizeable Bulgar population in Pannonia (Western Hungary) till the arrival of the Magyars (Hungarians). Only Transylvania and Eastern Hungary weren’t populated by Bulgars but by Avars instead.

province borders

(((Christian)))

Everything you just said is absolutely true. What xstians like to forget, is that even the Byzantines were getting dominated throughout its "extended" lifespan.

Nice one Gibbonite Ogre. The dark ages are nothing but a myth. Science flourished with Christianity. Heck universities eere invented by the Church.

@@Dominus_Augustus Basill II, Nikephoras Phokas, John Tzimiskes, Maurice, Belisarius, Heraclius would disagree with you, Gibbonite larpagan.

Oh yeah Rome fell only for One reason and its christianity (3rd century crisis don't real), Dark Ages myth and scapegoating. My favorite

No because Christmas is Christian. Modern pagan neckbeards keep coping in their disneyland with their wishful thinking that we stole something .

Cry about it

​@@ThatElephantSealLike how you do about your nose? 🙃

me too

@@dharmapersona2084 as do I

Same :(

I wish that Christianity stayed like it should of instead of the early Catholic Church forcing Christianity on pagans by force. They could of found a way better way to tell God’s plan to his sons and daughters, and how they could have eternal life if they believed in him, and his sacrifice!

@@Toviyah Julian strategy was good

Yes like violent atheism 🤣

@@Tzimiskes3506 You're not wrong, if the Soviet Union was any indication. Still, there have been a lot more people killed because of religion than from non-religious.

@@Bidmartinlo Hmm well you're wrong. "Encyclopedia of Wars," authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod document the history of recorded warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars only 123 have been classified to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all wars and of these wars, 3% were islamic. Most Christian wars were fought as defensive. If someone invaded your home, would you let them have a stroll through? “of more than fifty thousand Orthodox churches on the territory of the RSFSR in 1917, fewer than a thousand were left in 1939.” -Victoria Smolkin, A Sacred Space is Never Empty: A History of Soviet Atheism, Princeton, 2018, (p. 49)

​@@Tzimiskes3506 7% of a list from biased authors is still a lot for declaring war for your delusions. You're also knowingly lying when you say it's for "self-defense", because you know they mean these wars are declared BECAUSE of religion not because "a religion is defending itself". And no, I'm not defending atheists or the Soviet union. Maybe you're just having a religious experience, ie a schizophrenic episode.

@@Bidmartinlo Yes biased authors... When they don't agree with your larpagan wishful thinking 🤣 nice way to cope. You've already admitted that you have pseudo history and wishful thinking. We have already established that you are at the top of the dunning-kruger curve, Martin. Lying? So the Rashidun invasion of the ERE is a lie? The Ottoman expansion is a lie? Stupid larpagan go read history. Maybe your just having a larpagan 2009 reddit paganism/atheist phase. I can smell the cheetos+mountain dew through your screen, Martin. Move out of your mom's basement and go read a history book, martin. Why has your dad not returned from getting milk, Martin? Turns out most of the online larpagans or atheists exhibit fatherless behavior and you are the eg, Martin.

AVE IVPPITER DEVS

Rome is Catholic

AVE CAESAR

@@DrownedinDesigner Rome is Rome whether Catholics or other Christians or another faith lives in it.

@@carlosnamerow5505 salve blessed Caesar up in Heaven given life and bliss to live forever in worship of The Gods like Fatherly Jupiteris and Lord Apollo and Fatherly Neptunis and Queenly Juna and Lady Venus. Praise The Almighties Blessed be the Emperors in Heaven.

What us that suppose to mean

Islam

@@carnivalbeast6307don’t know nothing about it

Christianity would've remained small like Manichaeism

I am sceptical Islam would exist,at least in the current form. Plus Judaism would be a more powerful religion since Julian wanted to rebuild the Jewish templ e .If am not wrong he even started building it

Julian the apostate was a good emperor. He wanted to cut taxes and unnecessary spending. He also was very invested in the securing of the borders of the empire

Humanity is failing, big time

Roman christianity is not true christianity solince was based on a human Peter instead of Christ himself.

@@debrajohnson382 cringe. The Chalcedonian Church certainly wasn't based on Peter.

Christianity marked the end of the axial age. Its not part of the axial age at all. And paganism wasn't dying, if it was then there wouldnt have need of a literal century of anti pagan laws and prosecution

@@xiuhcoatl4830 yes, Paganism was dying, kinda. There's a reason why there were so many mystery cults, Agnostics (like Epicureans) and Atheists in that era. If Christianity didn't come a highly divergent form of Paganism(maybe some Sol Invictus based Henotheism) would have taken over and you'll see people today bitching about original Paganism like they do about original Christianity before the Catholics supposedly corrupted it.

@@ikengaspirit3063 Mystery cults existed way before this period. Literally, the eleusyan mysteries can be tracked way back to archaic Greece just as oracular practices. The many mystery cults of this period are more product of eastern syncretism than a decline on mainstream polytheist tradition. Mysteric cults were polytheist anyway. Atheism also existed way before this, it wasn't a novelty. Christianity is an aberration, both to judaic tradition, and to pagan thinking. That's why they had to impose it upon others, because it's nonsense only convinced the ones in worst conditions, taking advantage of their vulnerability

@Kafkaesque Call it "Surya" or "Sol Invictus" or "The Sun", it's still the same thing...

@@dharmapersona2084 that's like saying Christians and muslims are the same thing cause they both worship "God", those 2 religions are not even slightly similar, it doesn't matter that they both worship a sun god. Anyway, imagine being a hi*ndu lmao

@@iaminpain58 is kinda is similar actually if u research deep

@@iaminpain58 They are both Abrahamic religions.

You mean Helios

i don't know, because he wants to look like Jesus Christ maybe.

Me and the AI of CK 3 are the same 01011110111011 10001000010001