I read a post that said: "The smash community calling all fighting games' reps Shotos is the equivalent of your mother calling all videogames Nintendos" An I couldn't agree more
Back before E3 2019, I recall some people saying that Erdrick/Luminary from Dragon Quest would just be a generic anime swordfighter and it took a bit of time to see if those remarks would come to fruition. But when I saw some people saying that Terry was just "Ken with a hat" before his showcase, I already knew they were wrong.
@@chaotickreg7024 no because its the equivalent of a kid screaming of not knowing how to read an that it sullied your pants, it's "funny" in the sense that everyone will buly and mock said kid for the rest of their lives for being stunted mentally and saying dense things, you dont want people laughing at you like that, kid
At the end of the day, nobody is right or wrong regarding this stupid and childish subject. It's just fun to discuss game mechanics. If the smash community comprehend "shotos" as the main characters from a fighting game franchise, so be it
You know what's funnier? As someone who's actually a shotokan karate fighter, I can tell you that the character that most resembles real life shotokan is actually Makoto, who is technically not a shoto by definition. Go figure.
@June Shotokan Karate is the original style of karate, founded in Okinawa by the karate master Funakoshi. There are other styles like Kyokushin, that resembles a bit more Jin Kazama and Kazuya Mishima from Tekken, but yes, Shotokan is very real.
Smash fans complain about shotos, then go on to play Mario who literally has a fireball, a spinning attack that keeps you in the air, and a jumping uppercut.
Then again, Mario, Luigi and Doc have similar concept moves and follow the shoto variance trend much like Ryu, Ken and Akuma do. Gameplaywise they're much closer to a shoto than Kazuya, Jin and Heihachi are (they're their own thing, the Mishimas)
@@hecetewest5411 you must have not played ssb64 and melee haha Mario and Luigi were both very obviously intended to mimic ryu and Ken with their 3 original specials. And mario tornado can lift Mario up if mashed, even aiding with recovery. FLUDD was added in Brawl cuz the devs wanted something from Sunshine in the moveset I guess
@@hecetewest5411 only since they gave him the FLUDD. It was pretty clear when Sakurai made Smash64 he was paying homage to shotos with Mario's moveset.
Mario and Luigi both had (have) a spin attack in melee that moves them forward caled (X) Tornado. Definitely a Tatsu. Those attacks were later changed to FLUDD
Internet: "he punches and kicks and he's from a japanese fighting game, guess they added another shoto" Max: "You can't even begin to understand the history, significance, and gravity of that word let alone the variations and correct applicaple usages"
Okay, here's what happened: Smash terminology developed independently of the FGC history of the 'shoto' term. When Ryu/Ken were released, they were called shotos for all the traditional, historical FGC reasons. Once Terry was added, he was close enough to Smash Ryu/Ken (fireball, uppercut/spinning kick, auto-turnaround, AND having command inputs in addition to normal Smash controls) to also be called a shoto. Kazuya has now expanded the Smash 'shoto' term to be a trad fighting game character with command inputs and auto-turnaround. THESE TWO parts superceded the specific movesets to use 'shoto' as a way to identify characters with non-traditional movesets (Inkling doesn't count here because lack of auto-turnaround and command inputs outweigh Shield+B). In short, Ridley is not a spacie.
@@elcreyo Hang on....how is Gouken not a shoto? Yeah I agree he plays very differently but he still has the base fundamentals for being a shoto. He has a Shoryuken, a Hadoken, A Hurricane Kick, and even his atire is very similar to Ryu and Ken. If Gouken isn't a shoto, doesn't that mean Sakura, Akuma, and Dan aren't shotos?
"How close is the character to Ryu in terms of moveset and gameplay" is the question that should be asked. Ryu is the definitive Shoto, so it's much easier to class others as Shotos by using him as the point of comparison.
@@trunnellstaverntales6228 Terry is closer to being a shoto (frankly, he kinda is a Shoto save for that Charge motion and Power Wave not being a traditional fireball) that Kazuya. The only thing he has is the look, and that is irrelevant as far as Archetype classification goes.
@@trunnellstaverntales6228 Shoto is already an established fighting game term, and even if that's the term you want to go with as a "Smash version", that's all they share. Kazuya doesn't use his inputs in the same way Ryu, Ken, and even Terry do, having numerous extra normals outside the usual, a special Dash, and numerous specials that can ONLY be done with inputs (including a command grab) whereas the Shoto Bois and Cousin Terry's Inputs are for stronger versions of their existing Specials and one or 2 Input Exclusive moves. Kazuya and the Shotos (and Terry) function distinctly different from each other despite using similar gimmicks, and to refer to him as a Shoto would imply that he does play like them, which is misinformation. That'd be like calling Guile a Shoto because he has a fireball and a DP, completely ignoring the fact that he executes his moves differently and has to play the game differently from Ryu.
This is just a overly complicated way for smash fans to say, “Stop adding fighting game characters to my crossover fighting game” I have come to the realization that smash fans do not respond kindly when fighting game characters, sword characters, characters who remind them of anime or characters who don’t have a super strong history with Nintendo, so I have personally contacted Sakurai and together we have come to the conclusion that the only character that makes sense to end on is Sol Badguy, thank you for coming to my ted talk
@@Redxan600 yeah the only thing I can nitpick there is that I'd rather have Akuma than Ken, other than that I love these characters, even if I can only play terry
For me a Shoto is - Dragon Punch - Fireball - Tatsu - Can feature the staple design but not limited - Average height, build, reach (obviously they’re ripped lmao but in terms of other fighters) Sagat takes up way too much of the screen and his fireballs/tatsus aren’t standard to other Shotos
For me this is how a pure shoto is like - Horizontal Fireball - Has a reversal (doesn't have to look like an uppercut, has invincibility) - the reversal is not a charge move, bonus points if the move is done with a DP motion. - Bonus points if the reversal moves upwards but doesn't have to - bonus points if they have a special move that moves them forward and is airborne More bonus points if: - They are an all rounder - Has "footsies" kind of normals - Simple gameplan, somewhat limited offense options - You can pretend you are playing Ryu and you will do fine with pure fundamentals even if you are completely new to the game
@Connie Ford saying shoto means anyone that uses shoto karate isn't a actual definition. people define characters based on playstyle and their "goal" when playing, so you can't call them something based on a fighting style(which would only be animations in the game) when their play styles could be complete oppisites. so no. you cant just say "shotokan karate" and call it a day
That could be true. However we have characters like Dan who has bad frames, but is still a shoto when it comes to gameplan. For me what defines a shoto is 1. Inputs, usually when they're not a charge character and not a grappler character 2. Gameplan
10:13 well technically Dan was created to mock ALL of SNK not just ryo, more specifically it mocked Robert (face) Ryo (Body and gi design) and Yuri (pink was her original color, her victory pose was literally ripped off by dan and her fire ball is exactly the same as dan's)
I feel like I remember Dan and Robert share a move too... It wasn't that kick move he has instead of tatsu is it? It's been a while since I played an SNK game, but I feel like I remember noticing that... Might have been Ryo... I need to play some KoF again or something...
Luigi is definitely some form of a shoto, especially in brawl. He has a fireball, he has a spin move with cyclone (and in brawl, it is significantly faster on the ground for approaching), and he has an uppercut. But I’m all seriousness, it’s definitely an interesting topic to discuss but I feel has become more of a “is a soup a cereal?” argument
Smash player here. Luigi is more like a shoto than mario, because luigi's fireball doesn't have gravity, he has a rising uppercut, and he has tornado which can move
my favorite thing about this is that the smashers like me who play fighting games broke it down as to why Kazuya isn’t a shoto and the immediate response from the other smashers that don’t was literally “we know he isn’t. we just don’t wanna call him by his name”
Smash being such a different fighting game should be allowed to have its own definition of shoto, idk if he auto turnarounds and has rewarding inputs he's a shoto
@@toastadasd8578 meanwhile in an alternate universe. "Smash being such a different fighting game should have its own definition of a Korean backdash, idk like jumping then immediately air dodging towards the ground to get better movement and offensive tools."
Fun fact about Ryu, Ken, and Makoto. Ryu and Ken don't actually use Shotokan Karate, that was just something the localization team came up with. As a little joke, Capcom made Makoto. She actually uses Shotokan Karate and they intentionally made her look like Ryu to poke fun at the incorrect localization.
@@LowTierDio Yeah, but that was heavily influenced by Shotokan the same way Ryu and Ken’s style was heavily influenced by Kyokushin Karate…at least for the normal moves.
I was under the impression it meant the "all-rounder" character relative to each game. By the definition presented here a game with no projectiles can absolutely not contain a shoto no matter how much karate gi and allroundedness a guy might have
one thing that might contribute is the fact that in smash; ryu, ken, terry and kazuya share the auto-turnaround mechanic to emulate the games they are from. Since ryu and ken represented the posterchildren of this mechanic for all of sm4sh and much of ultimate, meaning people would lazily call terry a shoto cause he shares a defining characteristic of the actual shotos. There's also the fact that because of how these four characters are designed, they end up playing quite differently to the rest of the smash cast, especially when it comes to combos and how you execute them. In this way, one could argue that in the smash dictionary, a shoto is a character with auto-turnaround, special inputs, special cancelling and other features that replicate the experience of a traditional 2d fighter, which makes them feel like a whole genre of character. The name shoto only remains because that is how people refer to the pair from street fighter, who were the originals. or maybe the FGC is *awful* at giving things consistent names that make sense. IDK.
It does suck that Smashers referred to the Fighting game characters in Smash “shotos” because the auto-turnaround does make them a legitimate archetype, they just decided to give it an existing name.
I usually look at two main things when considering that a character is a shoto. The moves of the character (DP, fireball and tatsu) but also the type of inputs. The overall look of the character is a bonus.
@@DX5555555 gi = check Ranged projectile with the hadoken stance = check Super uppercut = check Spinning kick = not check Goku is definitely mostly Shoto, but not 100%. So depending on your metric he either mostly is or simply isn't.
Max is so good at articulating how popular tropes permeate through various Fighting Game series and influence future titles. These 'deep dive' style videos (though this particular video could probably be described more as a dipping your toe in the ocean) are my favourite that Max does. This, and 'GIT GUD'. I WORSHIP sCrUbLoRd
Mario definitely was in Smash 64. Later on, he lost that when he traded his Tornado for FLUDD. Luigi and Doctor Mario fit the mold. And it makes sense. Sakurai made Mister Nintendo the shoto of his fighting game. Plus, Mario already had most of those moves, with the fireball and jumping into things (like he does to blocks).
I'm from Antigua in the Caribbean and this is the first time I'm hearing this term but as I'm watching this vid instantly recognize the primary thrust. Growing up we used 'Hado Fighter' as a blanket term in place of Shoto and would use it to define any character that requires no skill to play and rack wins. Any cheese/cheap character where you can button mash and have a good chance of winning.
As someone who plays a TON of smash, it is kinda frustrating to see people get upset that (blank) character isn’t in the game, and “my character deserves to be in the game” or “it makes complete business and logical sense for my favorite character to be in this game.” Never mind most people don’t understand the hell of licensing and how difficult some companies are to work with. That being said, I feel like that’s a consequence of having a wider install base and an extremely broad range of demographics. The VAST MAJORITY of people who have Smash are not competitive players. Most don’t know a competitive scene even exists. So I feel that the massive amount of people who doesn’t play competitive or watch competitive make Smash players like Myself look like I don’t understand anything other than “My Nintendos.” I’d also liken when people don’t understand Smash Bros and it’s finer gameplay details but are sort of picking up the terminology and have a vague grasp of its ideas to being near people who speak a different language than you, and you are just trying to interpret what the hell these other people are saying. Also: it’s super frustrating hearing people denounce Smash as something worth considering without understanding it at all. People who look at the Punching game with Mario and Pikachu and say “that’s stupid” and act like “WhAt ThE hElL iS a SeX KiCk?!? (Flying Kicks that weaken as time goes on) Or “wHaT’s a DaCuS?” (Dash attack Canceled Up-Smash) It just bugs me that the same people who say it’s dumb and stupid also know very little about it and are unwilling to listen and learn about it.
I quite enjoy smash. It's not a game I play competitively like some other fighting games, but it is fun to just play, and the kind of people who knock it without even trying it should try it. It's a very solid game with a hell of a roster. Smash is like getting a shot of liquid fun directly into you blood stream. It's really a good game to chill too if you play it casually. However as a fighting game fan in general I do find the Smash community at times quite infuriating especially when they demonstrate their ignorance when it comes to other fighting games. I mean seriously calling the likes of Kazuya, and Terry shotos, and so many people not knowing who Terry was. Maybe if they announced Akuma or Sakura but uhgg then you would have another Shoto, though Smash Akuma, or Sakura, even Dan would be interesting to see. As for me I am happy with Kazuya though I still main female Byleth, Sephiroth, and Peach.
@@manicpixie566 I get that. It sucks that lots of people don’t want to experience some new stuff. Different fighting games other than the one they’re used to. It’s not helped at all that many fighting games are a) not on Nintendo Consoles (Guilty Gear, SF5, MvC, Tekken 7) b) the ones that are have to deal with Nintendo Online. Which, PLEASE GOD NO. I would love to give other games a chance (been watching loads of SF5, Strive, AC+R, DBFZ) and just Sajam, Kizzie Kay, HookGangGod, JWong, Max, Bafael, and so many more have broadened my understanding (if limited) of other fighting games. Part of the issue is that people may have SOMETHING of an idea of what’s happening, but they don’t fully understand it. Like When Max explains what a Shoto is, and in other Vids doesn’t seem to understand how to do cool Smash Tech nor want to understand it. The use of language is so important, and when you don’t have a good grasp of another dialect or language, their words might escape you. I’ve been in rooms with people that speak languages other than English, and it’s tough to my points across. So, I have to do things that those people could potentially understand. And when I learn words that others say, I may not initially know what they’re saying, but I will eventually pick it up slowly over time. Even as I make mistakes in understanding and delivering my own broken version of that dialect.
You said Mishima was it’s own type of character. I would like to see a video where you break down all the different classes and types of fighters in Tekken games and maybe trace their origins and inspirations.
Naah, not really. If that kind of definition is centered around on the idea of the "main character" in a fighting game, then yes, it's a definition that could exemplify Kazuya. He looks like the main character, he has a uppercut, a tatsu of some kind, etc.. he just don't have the fireball because of the 3d nature of tekken, but you can be sure, if the devs at the time could implement fireballs in a satisfactory way, Kazuya would most definitely look and play like Ryu
@@RRRRRRRRR33 What about Dan Hibiki? He isn't main character, but he is Shoto. Shoto designed as beginners characters in the game. Kazuya isn't the one. He is the hardest characters in the Tekken. Throughout the series, Kazuya's moves have some lag if not some very unhealthy frame data on whiff or block, limiting his arsenal of safe pokes and panic moves.
Mario in the first Smash Brothers arguably is a shoto. His down B special was that spinning fist attack, which they later moved and replaced it with the pump from Sunshine.
Mario was a shoto until Brawl, but Luigi and Dr Mario still are Though despite technically being a shoto, Luigi's kit is so jank and weird that he's pretty much a grappler in SSBU
and his Dair is. . . still kinda that? more limited, yes, but it could act as a tatsu (unless I'm remembering the move wrong, which I might be, haven't played Mario in a hot while)
Yeah exactly we just use shoto as an umbrella term when talking about fgc characters in smash due to them having similar qualities that are very different from the rest of the cast such as auto turnaround or being able to cancel aerials. We get they're different but it just makes it simpler
I feel like there's an argument for at least Sub-Zero being a shoto, I know uppercut is a universal mechanic, but he does have a slide kick, and a full screen projectile
I’ve heard “shoto” so much these past few days that it’s not even a real word anymore. All I’ve gotta say is that yes, Mario, Luigi, and Dr. Mario are shotos.
Knowing that Sakurai is a fighting game fan, it's really clear to me that he designed Mario and Luigi to be Ryu and Ken of Smash 64. They only have 3 specials: a fireball, a spinning move, a jumping uppercut. Luigi's spin is a multi-hit, his fireballs have different properties, and his uppercut is stronger. Things evolved as specials were added and changed, but in smash 64 they are absolutely shotos
No, in 64 Mario was the multihit with his uppercut *and* spin. Luigi was single hit in both, with early hit uppercut being an almost insta-kill. I think it's kinda clever, Mario being closer to Ken in that way and Luigi to Ryu.
@@fernandobanda5734 Shulk and Min-Min are weird. I want to call them "gimmick characters" because Shulk's whole gameplan is centered around the Monado and flipping his stats around to the situation similar to Min-Min changing her ARMS if she wants extra range, power, or comboablity. Yeah I know damn near every Smash character has their gimmick or trick, but unlike Pyra/Mythra, Zelda/Sheik, and Pokemon Trainer, who would be the stance characters of the Smash series with varied moves between each character, Shulk and Min-Min's movesets don't change at all when they switch things up, only their stats.
@@HoodWeegee That's fair, but "gimmick" is an incredibly generic term. Min Min changes a bit more than Shulk (for example, Ram Ram has a different hitbox vertical range while Dragon shoots a laser) but I agree that the essence of the attacks is the same.
@@fernandobanda5734 I wish there was a better term for it rather than "gimmick character" because in some games, like Smash, EVERYONE has a gimmick. But that's been the only term I've found for those type of characters that center around a certain feature only they have on the roster and are essentially playing by their own rules.
Just a bit of info on the origin of “shoto”, it does come from Shotokan Karate, despite that those characters use a made up martial art called Ansatsuken (assassins fist). It got popularized that it was shotokan for some reason (comic adaptations I believe, got this wrong and it endured lore wasn’t really consistent in the 90s). The closest thing to real Shotokan Karate in SF is what Makoto uses, and it’s still closer to Gojuryu Karate than shotokan.
@@onceuponagamemaster1588 I think I agree. I don't think Sean was necessarily meant to be bad, but I think that they went really far overboard on nerfs going from 2nd Impact to 3rd Strike. More Capcom over nerfing Sean by accident to me than trying to make Sean bad on purpose imo.
This would actually be a super cool video, Max goin on about fighting game archetypes. If it’s already it’s thing I haven’t seen it unfortunately but that’d be pretty neat.
I'm a Smash player and a FGC member of other games. Explaining what a shoto is to people usually connects it for them, but I don't have the energy to explain it to every single person who makes the assumptions just using terms they've heard on the internet. I appreciate this video so much and will definitely share it with others who aren't familiar with what the term really means.
@Beats Beats Because idiocy is bad and knowledge is good. Living principals is difficult, but having community resources like this video specifically targeted at this kind of question makes things easier.
@@Thalanox Just because it provides you with knowledge doesn't means it suddenly matters. You can gain knowledge from anything, but everything can't be important
@Succulent Boi Either way, having knowledge will always be better that not because it will become important eventually depending on the situation. And I can't think of a knowledge that couldn't potentially be useful.
To folks commenting on why it matters: It's just about helping people understand what they're talking about. Imagine having a conversation with someone where they say, "I love driving a Mustang; it's my favorite type of SUV." If you were someone who knew what a Mustang was, you'd acknowledge that statement as confusing and try to clarify. "A Mustang isn't an SUV. Did you mean to name a different brand or did you mean to say car?" It's for clarity and for helping others be accurate. My example is mild, but the same thing could be said about a medical procedure, or a law, or anything more important.
It's so crazy how much the template of Ryu and Ken has created so much variance in games that we can recognize this base. It feels like these characters have enough tools for many fighting situations (balanced I guess you can say). Then, you get AOF's Ryo, Robert, Yuri, and Takuma who follow the template. Ryo is much focused on punches and Robert on kicks to differentiate, but similar enough that they follow the same discipline. I think the closest to the template is Yuri's early incarnation in KOF where she had an actual tatsu (same with 94' Kyo) I'd put it out there that technically, Kyo, Iori, Shingo, K', and Kula are shotos. They follow the base template though they are wildly different from their predecessors. Ash, as much as I want to say he is, he wouldn't be. He has some of the base characteristics but gameplay wise, he's a charge character. Terry would be one. Rock would be. I also mostly think it's also why certain characters get picked more *cough* Ken *cough* not only because of the situatual balances in their respective games but also they feel more familiar with them because the move sets are pretty much the same for the most part. So I say shotos are most identified by their place in the game they're from, their base moveset and base gameplay (for the most part. If you know Ryu's moves, you could PROBABLY play this character. I've had friends tell me 'oh this character (kinda) plays like Ryu' when playing a game I wasn't familiar with and I pick up on quirks immediately.)
To me, Shotos are meant to be the character(s) who are the most basic to play, the "training wheels" character. Intended to be picked up and used by most players to master the basics of the game. To grasp the fundamental skills they need to learn to succeed and thrive in the game from match to match. Once familiar with the fundamentals, a player will either choose to stay with and fully master those fundamentals (choosing to play a shoto) or branch out and explore new interpretations of those basic, fundamental skills (playing a non-shoto character or a "hybrid-shoto").
Though ironically, in Smash post-Brawl, 3 of the 5 actual shotos by definition (Ryu, Ken, Mega Man) are some of the harder characters to play, and one of them is just pure cheese (Luigi). The only pure shoto that's easy to play is Doctor Mario Mario is only a semi-shoto since Brawl replaced his tornado
Sorry, that's the question for "Everyone who is better than him, both as a player and a human being (a.k.a. Everyone)" It was a long answer, so I get the confusion.
Ryu's actual fighting style (minus the fireball shenanigans) is something pretty similar to MMA, but with strictly Japanese martial arts. Most of the punches are from karate (because of the hooks I'd say Kyokushin), the kicks are from karate & taekwondo and the throws are from judo/jiu-jitsu
I believe a shoto is broken down by these factors. 1) has a fireball, whatever the variation 2) has a move that attacks moving forward. 3) has a special move to anti-air 4) none of the moves are charge motion. 5) Attacks are balanced in speed and power. visual style has nothing to do with it.
@@Christian-rn1ur You are forgetting, luigi has a move that attacks while moving forward, his rapid punch while running. He is a shoto, more than you know.
I love how you simplified a lot of Maximilian’s requirement for a shoto just to fit some bullshit you already believed in. I seriously hope you’re joking with that horrible, dogshit definition of a shoto
@@IHateSage I disagree with Max on some factors based on my definition. Sagat is a shoto. Max did a lot of emphasis on appearance as a shoto factor, i disagree with this. If you read and understood what was written, you would already know this. Instead of you go out of you way with nasty comments. This will be my last reply to you.
At first I just thought Max was intentionally mispronouncing all of the character's names.. And then I realised that he really doesn't know how to pronounce them correctly at all.
I think the spirit of what a shoto is in many people's eyes is "The character that establishes the basic functions of the game". The character with the basic moveset, the noob character, and more often than not the cover character. Since fighting games are much more diverse now, the basic character concept has also become more diverse.
Spot on. Just like Shotos, Mishimas are already their own. Generally, Jin is considered by many as a "Mishima" because of his EWGF and Hellsweep, which are two distinct moves associated with the archetype.
@@TheEduardoAlex I know why they did it, but it's weird that the archetype is named after a certain family but there are characters in that family that aren't part of the archetype.
Great, great analysis, really informative specially with younger people/players/audiences. To me more than calling these main characters "shotos" it would be more on how you perfectly put it almost at the end, when you talked about the protagonists of every fighting video game or franchise. What's common? The moves on these protagonists. Ryu and Ken were the main balanced primary characters you commonly adopted in the early days, so other fighting games copying and/or taking inspiration in SF were basically assuring that players would have this same entry experience on their titles. That's why a Terry-Andy / Ryo-Robert / Haohmaru-Genjuro / Demitri-Morrigan / Kyo-Iori / Reiji-Keith / Makoto-Ray / Sol-Ky / Ragna-Jin and so many more were a constant formula. Shotos? Nope, but the primary protagonist archetype were so that could cause some confusion. Mario... great example of an easy entry move wise protagonist character. Again, excellent video Max, thank you.
I watched it but I disagree about it seeing as he has the three elements. But then again I see Sagat is borderline shoto also and Ryu/Kens master considered a shoto on SFIV by a majority of players
Got me thinking about all kinds of shotos now. Hanzo and Fuuma from World Heroes come to mind. I believe companies do this because people that already play SF don’t want to relearn combos or stuff like that. Familiar shotos usually have familiar controls.
He said shoto so much that it no longer sounds like a real word, it doesn’t even sound like a human sound, it’s become some lovecraftian nightmare sound
for me shotos are those characters that have the basic kit of moves from that specific game, kinda like the standard yellow lego minifigure shotos are the base from where all the other characters can branch out.
What Max said about the definition of Shoto being variant to each person is a pretty good point. You don't have this mess when it comes to grapplers or zoners, hence it's easier to identify them.
