For those who don't get it he's talking about castlevania symphony of the night, Dracula's dialouge during the games first mission which is a flashback of what had happened before.
I never considered the realism angle to be a factor by itself alone, just like Mario Kart and Gran Turismo are both racing games. I always considered wrestling (or pinning) games to be a sub-genre, just like stuff like arena fighters or Smash-likes. Then again there's a point where this kind of discussion tends to get pedantic and not really worth it though, so I usually don't think too much about it and prefer to keep things simple.
Pokken Tournament was a very interesting one, having elements of both 2d and 3d fighters. Justin even had a few exhibition matches in it so i hope it gets brought up
@@mikejonesnoreally It was actually a pretty easy system to get use to and one of the easier fighting games to jump into. Movement during the 3D section might've been more odd, for a fighting game. But, the inputs pretty much stayed the same (no motion inputs either) no matter what mode you were in and the move pools weren't that deep. It's just because of the wierd hybrid nature of the game, that it's hard to place it into a sub genre of fighting game. The 3D sections don't feel like Tekken or Power Stone and the 2D sections are too simple to compare to Street Fighter or KoF.
@@zanpakutoman4225 I honestly disagree. I introduced fighting games to a lot of people. A lot of fighting games. And one of the hardest games to understand by judging their reactions, is Pokken Tournment. The way the game decided to change perspective between 2d and 3d changing the control in the process made that game a very hard game for new players, and for old players too. New players accepted what was happening but they didn't understand it, rarely took it into their strategies, and older players just felt confused and baffled. I liked that game but this is the usual story with Nintendo. They always need to add some stupid twist or gimmick to something that otherwise would have worked perfectly fine. Sometimes they nail it, but most of the time the result is meh. I wish they just kept the Tekken style of play. It's just another case of lost potential.
@@Alfonso88279 ??? Pokken has always been my go-to 3D fighter to introduce FGs to. Tekken is HELL for people who don’t already have a baseline understanding of fighting games
Mario Tennis Aces is probably one of the richest non-traditional fighting game. Game has literally all the hallmarks of a traditional fighter through the language of tennis. It's so good.
I aww a video about this but I haven't watched it yet because I'm sure it'll lead to me hearing about a bunch of accounts to search for and follow lol. But thanks for the reminder.
I think fighting games can have sub genres. 2D traditional 3D traditional Arena Wrestling Simulation (MMA/Boxing) Platform Party It’s like saying whether or not Mario Kart is a racing game.
I think something that would be helpful is to borrow terminology from racing games. Racing games have both arcade and simulation racers, and I think a lot of the edge case fighting games fit more comfortably under what we might call "simulation" fighting games vs arcade fighting games.
I don't agree that Fighting Game is a title earned by combat games when they get super popular/beloved/taken seriously. Any game where you have 2 characters or 2 teams of characters fighting is a fighting game. From KOF to Naruto Ninja Storm. Sidescrolling, 3D, Platform, First Person, whatever. If it's a game about fighting, it's a fighting game. Regardless of whether it has a big competitive scene or not. They can be good or bad games -that's a whole different topic- but they're fighting games.
Agreed. If we defined it by whether the game got popular enough/developed a competitive scene, then plenty of bad or unpopular fighting games of the past would be excluded from their own genre, which is just absurd on its face.
I'm sorry but smash is not a fighting game... The reality is ppl don't know what to call it so they call it a fighting game. If I would give it a genre I'd go with "Platform Battler". Best part is Smash isn't even an original concept as most believe, there is a game that predates Smash and is absolutely amazing! Namco 's 1995 The Outfoxies!
Weirdly, while no UFC ever featured at EVO, Undisputed 3's first gameplay trailer was at EVO 2011, and I do believe THQ meant for it to be more of a fighting game than past titles. Now, I would call EARLY UFC titles fighting games. They have health bars, and many of which were worked on by developers responsible for early 3D fighters like Ergheiz.
I know it’s controversial, but I do consider UFC and boxing games as fighting games. I don’t think the games being “real life”, or having submissions, or knockouts, disqualifies it from being a fighting games.
I’m just gonna drop a recommendation. Tom and Jerry: War of the Whiskers was a hilarious and fun arena fighting game. It was my first game of that style before I ever heard of Power Stone.
I think you run into edge cases pretty quickly no matter how you define a fighting game, just like with any genre. It feels like people attach some level of prestige to being called a fighting game, but at the end of the day, we have to remember that most game genres are often just largely arbitrary categories to make it easier for people to find similar games to the one they already like. Like, Pokkén is more arena fighter-ish than Tekken. Is it not a fighting game because of this? Would a smash-bros like game with de-emphasized platform fighting and air movement be a fighting game? If not, why? This theoretical game sounds to me like Soul Calibur with only ring-outs and no health bar. Is it the percentage that makes it not a fighter? Is smash ultimate more of a fighting game because its got a larger focus on the competitive fanbase than the previous games, and a competitive online mode? Has competitive melee been _made_ into a fighting game separate from its base form by its community through playing with very specific competitive rules? In my opinion we'd have to come up with the very core of a fighting game to actually give a coherent definition of the genre, and only then could we exclude things. And that's assuming it's even possible to do so in an unbiased manner. Until then, I think a good thing to do is ask ourselves questions like: "Does this appeal to a fighting game player? How many gameplay elements does it share with fighting games? Does it offer the same kinds of decisions and challenges as a fighting game?" If we get positive answers to most of those, I think it'd be practical to call it a fighting game. Or maybe we should divide it up further into things like "platform fighter, classic fighter, etc, etc." I dunno, I'm just some guy on the internet. (Really I'm kinda surprised you read this far at all. Cool.) It's a very interesting discussion though.
I think the best way to do it is by making some sort of combination genre. Similar to how a movie or an anime can have different genres at once, you should be able to say something is a fighting game even if it has elements of other genres in it
"What is a fighting game?" Is such a deep question with way too many possible answers, but i think that some people would stop right before arena fighters. I don't know where i'd stand but i accept all of them
If Smash is a fighting game, and Powerstone is a fighting game both of which in different ways are very off the classic model, I dont see why wrestling games wouldn't be.
When they mentioned Ready 2 Rumble, I had to go look up the dodging moment Max was talking about. Pretty damn funny! Also for an interesting take on boxing is the boxing mini game in Lost Judgment.
Clash of ninja was the American name for the Naruto gamecube games, also known as gekitou ninja taisen. Side note, Gundam versus is one of the best arena fighters ever made.
There's actually an entire feint system and animation canceling for UFC 4, you can read if someone if throwing a right hand, move your head, and throw a counter. The body, legs, and head all have their own health bars, so you have a high, mid, and low, all with various attacks from each depending on the fighter. The only thing I think really discounts it from being a strict "fighter" is the grappling being an odd mini game.
UFC is a great Game and to correct Justin, he wons that Match because the guy who fought against him was swinging too much and get exhausted by doing that. From Fighting Game perspective its like grey health!
I'd say that wrestling games are fighting games, just in their own sub category. I'd probably place them in the Platform Arena Fighter category myself. Pinning is just another form of percent damage until you can finally get the win. But instead of blasting someone off of the screen, your character just lays on top of the other one for 3 seconds, or makes them submit. lol
I'm gonna be completely honest, the genre is already so small and niche I feel we aren't doing any good by attaching our own arbitrary definitions of what constitutes a fighting game based on our personal biases. Gotta have life bars, can't be pin-to-win, can't have random KOs which, btw, isn't how UFC avtually works. I don't like those games, but I've played and learned enough about them by obliging friends and family who love those games. I don't see how the knock out system would be any different than ring outs in Soul Calibur or death traps in the 3D MK games. And if you wanna say "you know when you're near one on the stage and have options to avoid it", well you actually have signs that tell you when you're near a KO in UFC and have options to avoid that as well. It's just not immediately intuitive because there's no life bar. I feel like if you and another human can each control a character and compete against each other in a fight, it's a fighting game.
I wish there was a genre distinction between what FGC players value in fighting games and everything else. As I see it, early fighting games are just 1v1 (or 2v2, etc) beat-em-ups. Everything that comes out of that primordial ooze is a fighting game, and its descendants, etc. E-sports ready, FGC-friendly games are but one strain. But I do love how the discussion talks about which mechanics FEEL more like fighting games, and how some radical changes are just unfamiliar expressions of mechanics seen in early/experimental fighters. Love how y'all explore this topic in an open minded and playful way.
Wack argument really. Making a simple concept into 2D fighting game players gate keeping the term. A genre is supposed to describe what the characters will be doing and the focus of the game mechanics. If fighting is the main focus it’s a fighting game.😪
If you really think about it, technically anything that's 1v1 is a fighting game. It just depends how much you want to boil down the details such as camera perspective, reading your opponent with the ability to respond and how much randomness is allowed.
Here's my take, so basically we can group fighting games into two major categories: 2D and 3D, then right below into Traditional: 2D(SF, MK), 3D(VF, Tekken) Arena: 2D(OPGB2, PSASBR), 3D(Power Stone, Virtual On) after establishing if it's a 1v1/2v2/team/tag game, everything beyond this it's just subgenre(Weapon based, airdashers, RPG, platform etc.). Sports simulator are not fighting games, but we do have sports based fighting games(Lethal League) or martial arts based(Buriki One), so "Wrestling fighting games" absolutely can exist, no need to split between "Wrestling games or FGs", it's just another hybrid subgenre, games like: Slammasters, Kinnikuman Muscle Grand Prix, Ultimate Muscle GCN are perfect examples of this. Difference between Windjammers and Lethal League is that, in Windjammers you don't win by killing your opponent with the frisbee, your goal is to score points, that's why it's not a fighting game. 31:25 The Narutimate Ninja series it's not nor has never been addressed as a platform-fighter by its own community, the games are arenas like Storm but 2D; it's not even Smash inspired, the series looked back at One Piece Grand Battle and Digimon Rumble on ps1. Just because it's a 2D arena doesn't mean it's the same subgenre, kinda like Battle Monsters and Power Stone have platforms, but no one call them platform-fighters, because PFs main gameplay is to ringout people off platforms with a % meter, that's it, the formula is different and the community only want this kind of gameplay, that's why 2D arenas are different. 1:20:10 The answer that most people might not give is that because it's a hybrid, Smash has always been a Party/Platform-fighter, we have better examples of 1v1 competitive platform-fighters now, like Rivals of Aether, even tho Smash is more popular doesn't mean it's a better example anymore. 1:26:20 This seems Arcade vs Console gaming mentality, for example the most popular DBZ games are Tenkaichi and Budokai 3, they both have huge communities, but people now just keep playing FighterZ because it's more arcade traditional; if Smash or Def Jam had arcade releases, they wouldn't have need the community support to get the respect from the FGC?
In college we held 16 fighting game tournaments on 1 day and we included some unconventional picks such as Fight Night and UFC. Also thanks again for mentioning DESTREGA, wish we could get it in Fightcade...
Justin is very right about the whole divide having to with Smash not being an arcade game, different environments gave origin to different publics, the community was very disconnected from the FGC, but I don't think everything he said is entirely accurate about Smash's past, since info back then didn't flow well between the smash community and the rest of the FGC, I think it would be really interesting to get someone from the Smash community that has been there for a long time to talk about that history in a future episode.
@@blyat8832 What are you talking about, no one in this podcast ever played smash competitively. From what he said the information that reached jwong from back then made it seem that the game was just MLG tournaments and there were no TOs and that the game died down because MLG tournaments ended all of which is not true at all.
@@blyat8832 Yeah, sure, Jwong was definitely an OG melee pro for 5 years, a hallmark player of the early 00's smash community, extremely well connected to the history of the game. You should go back to the alternate timeline you came from from bro.
Backyard wrestling 1 was fun times but the women fighting style moves were busted. The counter timing on them were tighter than normal so it was easier to miss it.
I miss Bushiso Blade 2 so much. The characters did have special moves, you could choose your weapons, characters had different speeds and abilities, and yeah, there were some interesting arenas where you could jump around and use the environment to your advantage. Some characters could even throw knives and things of the like, which could kill. And some characters even had guns, and they were cheap.
I'm deep in the poverty hole, so I say any game with a versus mode where you need to hit your opponent to win is a fighting game. Zone of the Enders is a fighting game. 1-On-1 and Blades of Steel are _definitely_ fighting games.
No Mercy has always been and always will be legitimately trash. The entire game is a slow, awkward, buggy, janky, ugly, nearly unplayable goddamn mess, the control scheme is objectively horrid, the presentation was beyond awful, and the gameplay was a jittery, sluggish, un-responsive load of crap that was like trying to wade through a pool of molasses and wait 10 minutes to achieve a single move, and any match that isn't a 1v1 can slog on for over a painful and horrid hour of unresponsive controls and back-asswards button placement. The game was such a poorly programmed, badly optomised, janky, buggy, broken mess of a game that they had to literally cut full entrances out of the game because they didn't even work correctly and all the run-ins reverse priority, so that friends always attack friends and enemies help enemies in every run-in. No Mercy is quite possibly the most overrated video game of all time.
I want to hear your thoughts about Destroys on the original Guilty Gear. Wouldn't that be comparable to pinning in wrestling games in that it can end the match quicker without exhausting your opponent's life bar?
Power Stone was actually surprisingly popular in Canada. Any time I'd go to an arcade, if they had Power Stone, it was always taken up, and always had a line up. It had an anime that aired on YTV every Saturday right after Digimon Frontiers (and right before NT Warrior came on on Teletoon. My Saturday mornings were mostly Capcom driven, apparently). The show, while not super popular, is regarded as a cult classic up here. Shame the surprisingly decent Viewtiful Joe anime doesn't get the same love.
My friends and I would play a lot of power stone on the dreamcast. Loved that game. There was another dreamcast fighter I liked a lot, too. I think it was called plasma sword. Don't really remember.
This whole discussion reminds me of metalheads trying to define bands by very specific subgenre. Nothing wrong with it, it's a fun thought experiment, but I feel like people can take it too seriously. Genre is descriptive, not prescriptive, and seems very subjective. I feel like what makes a fighting game a fighting game or not, is based partly on how the player feels like it's a fighting game. There are valid arguments for For Honor being a fighting game (mixups, "grabs", combos, footsies, lifebars), but others would laugh at that and say "yeah, okay, and smash is a fighting game too lmao". Maybe the person who says it is a fighting game has more experience with Soul Calibur, while the other person who says it's not, has more experience with Street Fighter. Are either of them "wrong"?
Thank you for addressing Smash. As a long time Melee player, you guys had some great views and thoughtful words. I myself also love picking up MvC2, KI, MK, and SF Alpha 2 (personal preference) though as well even though I’m casual when playing that side of “fighting games”
Naruto clash of ninja/gekitou ninja taisen aren't arena fighters. They're thinking of the Playstation Naruto games, the ninja storm ones or whatever they're called.
I'd say stuff that counts as fighting games for me would be: traditional 2D fighting games like Street Fighter and KOF, GG etc, 3D fighting games like Tekken, VF, SoulCal, etc, Arena fighters like the Naruto games, platform fighters like Smash, Rivals of Aether, etc, and the more unorthodox ones like ARMS, Anarchy Reigns or that one really old fighting game with items Power Stone or something. I consider stuff like Punch Out or WWE games to be moreso sports games tbh, especially seeing as how they seem to moreso be a simulation of a specific sport and don't seem to have as much fighting game elements
Personally, I like the distinction of fighting games and "fighters". Imo, the most important thing is legacy skill and fanbase overlap. Even with things as different as SF and Tekken, fundamentals still carry over from one game to the other. Even getting good at links and combos in one game will help with the other. But arena and platform fighters are just different. They require a different skillset and b/c of that ppl play them for different reasons. Hot take but I feel like the FGC acceptance of Smash is kinda forced due to its popularity. Smash players prove time and time again that they definitely don't care about fighting games (Ryu/Ken/Terry/Kaz releases...) nor do skills carry back and forth between genres well. So... why try so hard to call it a fighting game when the vendiagram looks like an infinity symbol...? It's just weird to me. I think people just want to hop onto the cultural legacy of fighting games due to some perceived prestige.
@@bodyga1140 A game having fans that don't care about traditional fighting game doesn't make it any less of a fighting game, that's just nonsense. Plus, Smash and traditional fighting games have more overlap now even if the overall communities are diverging paths. I'd say why insist that something isn't a fighting game despite Smash having so much elements rooted from traditional fighting games. It also doesn't make sense to make distinctions between fighting games and "fighters" since those are the same thing. It's honestly weird how people have such a rigid view on fighting games that they think that it has to be a traditional fighting game or even one aimed for a competitive audience to be considered as a fighting game when even SF2 wasn't even aimed for competitive people, and that's like considered as the founding father for all fighting games. Smash is a fighting game. Platform fighters are fighting games. Arena fighters are fighting games. No matter how you try and twist it, that will always be a fact and it's wild how people are trying to say otherwise because no one is saying that Smash is a *traditional* fighting game, just that it is. Different subgenre but still a fighting game. Because it sure as hell isn't a racing game or an RPG or a hack-and-slash, and it can't even be called a platformer, especially with how it shares more elements with FGs than any other genres so
Another arena fighter that I don't think gets much recognition in the FGC is the gundam versus series, its basically the most fleshed out virtual-ON game, has all the nuances and its own similar lingo to fighting games that y'all should check out. Its pretty fun
Me and my friends playing Armored Core 1v1 was so much fun! Also we played the shit out of Streets of Rage vs mode. I know it’s shit, we knew it was shit as kids, but we had tons of fun with it.
I honestly love fighting game subgenres. I think platform fighters, arena fighters, wrestlers, etc can be very fun, and seeing competitive scenes for these games always make me smile
Thinking of the hype reversals in WWE All Stars - I was trying out Tobal 2 with some friends recently and that has a really similar thing going on. Very fast and fluid gameplay that feels like a mix of VF and Tekken, but it has an extremely deep grapple system that every character can use. These grapples can be turned into throws and combos, and all of that can be countered or reversed leading to some really loud hype instances.
Dude! Bushido Blade! I remember that! It was definitely a fencing and critical hit game, very less a fighting game in the traditional sense especially at the time.
I still maintain the Aki wrestling game engine was trash, and No Mercy actually sucks and is massively overrated to an insane degree. The entire Smackdown vs Raw series from THQ was so ridiculously superior in every possible way that it's not even funny. No Mercy is garbage and it was never good. Not even for it's time.
@@the-NightStar you're a lonely man. Furthermore the smackdown vs raw series took so much inspiration from the aki engine it might as well have had their logo on the cover.
As a long-time fighting game player who recently got into Mobas, it actually kind of feels like a fighting game to me. There are match ups, life bars, resource bars, special moves, ultimates, etc. It may not be strictly 1v1, but it the early stages of the game it's 1v1 or 2v2 as you need to win your lane. The item upgrade aspect stuff don't fit into what fighters are though.
First of all, HELL YEAH WWF NO MERCY. That and WCW/NWO Revenge are my absolute favorite wrestling games. Secondly, Power Stone Collection is pretty good, especially if you only like the first game since you can unlock all the Power Stone 2 characters in 1 except for Mel and Pride. Only bummer about it multiplayer is impossible without another person with a psp. I don't think psp emulators can do it either.
Thank you Justin, Matt, and Maximillian for this fun video. On this subject I would highly suggest you guys take a look at Sega's Giant Gram and Giant Gram 2000 (was in the arcade but also available on Dreamcast). It was built in house and shares many properties with the other Sega fighting games that were popular around that time (VF3, Fighting Vipers, Virtua On). The controls are three button, it has an arcade style select screen, flashy specials moves, and VF characters as guest stars. This one seems to be more of a fighting game with linking moves to make it feel more like a wrestling game. If you gents have time I highly suggest taking it for a spin.
Everybody's still debating in the comments whether or not platform and arena fighters are fighting game when it's not even debatable at all (everyone saying no is a laughingstock at this point because it's 2022 and you're still stuck in the 90s) when the real question should be whether or not *Sonic Battle* counts as a fighting game
The Naruto game you guys were referring to is Clash Of Ninja it’s just Gekito Ninja Taisen! Is the Japanese name for it. It’s actually just Bloody Roar Naruto because the main combat is 1v1 with similar mechanics as BR outside of Beast transforming.
huh, just PS1, Before SF2 there were a lot of 1v1 Karate games like Karate Champ, Karetaka, or Double Dragon Mode B. Those explored the idea of Player Vs Player.
Do you guys consider Lethal League Blaze a fighting game? I personally do, but moat people know it as an alternative fighting game. I would like to know your opinions.
I dont have the ability to pick and choose what data really quantifies it, but every part of my gut tells me that Devil May Cry is closer to being a fighting game than Smash brothers is.
Psychic Force still has tournaments being held in Japan so I guess it's considered a fighting game. Definitely surprised they didn't talk about Pokken. ✌😎👍
Number 1 reason UFC isn’t a fighting game…its a buggy and broken (not in the fun MvC3 way) pay to win mess produced by EA. The FGC won’t put up with that.
Generally speaking the community will consider a fighting game a fighting game so long as they can use legacy skill from Street Fighter 2. If the controls and mechanics don't relate to that, it isn't a fighting game regardless of if it has •Gameplay •Involves Fighting Basically how much does it overlay with an old CPS1 game. I've never found debating this particular topic fruitful. (Also Bushido Blade was Lightweight IIRC)
Smash is a brawler and not a fighting game, through and through, no matter what rules the community imposes. Games like Marvel vs Capcom or BlazBlue teeter on the border of being a brawler and fighting game hybrid but the same fundamentals you established in Street Fighter and Guilty Gear can still be applied. On the other hand, even if you use Ryu/Ken or Terry in Smash, you have to change your entire playstyle to use them in an entirely different dynamic. Same with with Heihachi in PSABR.
I think the inte t is the most important point of a fighting game Divekick has many important tenets of fgc culture, but one could argue it is not a fighting game by merit of a lack of expression. I'd say Acceleration of Suguri is a fighting game! Albeit kusoge as fuck, because you have a 1v1 situation in a neutral environment with a relatively even playing field, with room for playstyle and refinement, fairly tight controls, and a bangin soundtrack In the end, it doesn't matter as long as you love it
I am truly curious and not trolling here, would Pokemon be considered or could be considered a fighting game? It's life bars, barking characters using strategy where some would argue switching out and playing the match up is comparable to footsies. Not to mention it actually does have a competitive scene but Pokemon gets classified as a kid game
commenting before watching but vpw2 and any of those n64 wrestling games are very much fighting games. You have all the fighting game things. Footsies especially
