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@@VladicD Honestly I can't say I'm surprised. The competition toward that boring, dull, unsurprising sound character the SM57 carries is just too big not to take into consideration before actually purchasing a dynamic microphone.
yeah, even Steve Albini has a pair in his studio. Besides that, pointless shootout in my opinion. Recording drums is all about bleed between mics and drums, so one mic may sound good on a single snare due to its brightness but at the end useless because of the polar pattern and the bleed from the hi hat for instance. Should have played with hh and kick al least. Surprises me cause this dude is a super smart guy
very interesting work... good to know what to expect and comparing with some surprising results there. Not too many people have access to this many options to test... great stuff !
I am not sure if recording this many mics at once makes sense - even small change in mic position can alter the sound noticeably, as it just gets a different "slice" of the sound "cloud" that the snare emits. So here every mic gets different input - that make this harder to compare what is the "mic sound" and what is just the result of the mic placement. Maybe it'd be good to do a similar shootout, but with the same mic in various positions instead? To get a perfect comparison, you'd need: 1. A robotic arm that will strike the snare exactly in the same place with exactly the same force. 2. A precise way to measure the location and orientation of each mic's membrane - so you can swap them out between takes and make sure they get the same "input" Then the recordings should really reveal what differs between the mics. But man, that's a hard thing to do...
ya no kidding good ideas tho robot arm makes sense - same hit on the snare evrrytime BUT way to boring for a real pro drummer theres not enough beer in the world to get a real drummer to do this test
Shure Beta 57 is hypercardioid (Shure calls it "Supercardioid', same thing), whereas the SM 57 as well as the Unidyne are not (they are cardioid), so naturally there is a significant difference. Where the Beta 57, and the Sennheiser 441 (also hypercardiod) are useful is when you need to separate the snare from the hi-hit. You get a ton of bleed through on a standard 57, and off-axis it's not the greatest hi hat sound (it's horrible, actually). A Beta 57 tightens that up significantly. Maybe one of the other more esoteric cardioid mics you're using would get a great sound on the hi hat too, but if your only choices are an SM 57 vs Beta 57, (like a lot of home studios) it's useful to understand the difference so you can make an informed choice (it all depends on the drummer). I prefer the Sennheiser 441 over the Beta 57 in that application however, because it has an extended bottom end which is pretty flat, has good transient response, and it totally nulls out the hi hat - but most importantly because I like the sound. Plus I own one, so I can actually use it instead of dreaming about some other microphone I wish I had. In a mix with good overhead and hi hat mics, and a room mic or two, it sounds fabulous (trying to get a good sounding mix strictly by soloing one mic gets you nowhere, right?). I am speaking here as a drummer with a bit of experience. A couple of months, minimum. By the way, next time you do a snare miking shootout, GET A REAL DRUMMER! You were STRANGLING that poor drumstick on the stick over snare test. A lot of sound comes off of the wood of the stick - if you let it. Hold it properly and it sings, resonates loudly, and adds a lot of beautiful overtones. And don't choke the drum when you hit it! ;) It has to breathe too, you know. Drumming technique matters. How you hit the drum (and slosh the hi hat - or not) can have a more significant effect on the recorded drum sounds than the choice of microphone. Not to mention how you tune the drum. Really. I'd be happy to prove that to you sometime. All that aside, your videos are great! Great sense of humor, very informed and opinionated, all of which I love (not to mention your scharming ackschient). Thanks so much. Keep it up!
Good observations! I hardly wanna see a video like this without hi hats. I wanna hear the colour of the mic but also hear how much the hi hat bleed is. Do you have any experience with Beyerdynamic TG201? (Sound character and bleed) Thank you!
@@sarinsahil I have used the TG2011 before. It was a while ago though. My recollection is that it was good on the hi hat rejection, but maybe a little bit lacking in the bottom end for my snare playing style and taste. I hit rim shots on the back beat, and I hit hard, so I get a lot of 'crack' out of the snare when I hit it. My choice of snare drum (Ludwig 6.5 inch bronze) mellows that out a bit and makes for a powerful sound. But I also tend to like mics that have a pretty flat bottom end (I HATE SM 57s, lol). My favorite hypercardioids have been the Sennheiser 441 (bo low end rollof with top end boost) and believe it or not the Beyer M160 ribbon, which sounds awesome but you have to be extra careful not to whack it, because it's a ribbon. It can handle the super loud SPLs though. There are a bunch of newer mics I'd love to try. I bet some of those would be exactly what I look for.
Very interesting video. I have a question thats a little off subject but i trust your opinion. In a small treated studio, would a single eventone mix cube(in mono) or sonarworks be more beneficial? Thanks. Ps more snake oil
Great video as always Wytse! A lot of these mics sound really great. I wonder what would happen when you play a full kit with some of these microphones. For example, excessive bleed might be a reason not to use certain microphones on a full kit, even when they sound good on just one snare drum. I'm also curious how big the difference is in a full mix.
This is what I was dreaming about for times, to use many microphones on drums! Thanks for the experiment. Have you ever tried Soyuz microphones? It would be an awesome adding to the set!
you missed the best dynamic out there, the Telefunken M80, i've been using it both studio and live for a year now and i don't want to use anything else
Realy cool test, thanx man. after 25 years of experience, the choice based on this test gets intressting as soon as a drummer plays the hihat, then you change your mic or hihat pretty quickly...
Now the big question...... if you had to pick just TWO mics (top and bottom) to use on every one of your recordings from now on, which two would you pick? ;) My fist impression (only one listen so far) was that the Lewitt DTP 640 condenser/dynamic combo was very impressive. Having the combo of two very different sounds in a single mic is super cool!
Wow, great video. Thanks for all the work you put into this! Never tried my 421s (black and white) on snare. Interesting alternative, but also very interesting that the gold one (I never tried one myself) sounds completely different. I got a Unidyne 545D last year and I prefer it over a 57/b57 too! Great mic. Shocking was how different the two 414s were. It's like completely different mics.
Could you do a video about microphone „resolution“ and what you think of this topic? Im confused, it seems like it cannot be measured, not sure if it is a thing at all...
I have ear-selected about 30 Sennheiser MD 421 over the years and they all sound different. But that statement is true for every other microphone, especially for dynamic ones.
Thank you for your effort. It's difficult to judge close mics without overheads. If you continue with these comparisons I would love to hear an overhead mic too. BTW I had great results combining a Beyerdynamic m 201 with a SDC on snare top. It replaced the sm57 as my go-to snare top mic.
Same combination Steve Albini used in his early days. He would blend a dark mic (Beyer M201) with a brighter Shure SDC. These days, I think he might use a Neumann KM84, but don't quote me.
Hey!! Great video. Sorry, what is the combination of dynamic and condenser at 11:48? You remarked on it sounding “pretty huge actually..” I’m loving that sound!
Shortly after the start of my career recording I started carrying my own Sennheiser MD 211 dynamic mic and with that, convincing drummers to play rim shots in a very dry almost anechoic drum room, I almost always got what producers and bands called a fantastic snare sound! After that I never thought to look for anything else. Mike
Hey this is way off topic but I viewed one of your older video and noticed that you have built some of you own gear I would like to know if you would make a video showing how we could lear to do that.
One of the biggest factors in choosing a snare microphone has to do with off axis coloration and cymbal bleed. I have a few mics that sound better than a 57, but fail for heavy cymbal hitting drummers. Just food for thought. Cool video!
spot on.. AND also the fact that condenser have a "nicer" softer bleed than dynamic mics, so its more "forgiveable". but yes.. rejection is a big thing, or like me you construct a cave for the mic så bleed stays super lov no matter which mic you use 🙂
Who else thinks the beyerdynamic M201TG just kills it? also the MD441 - but depends on the settings you make on the ring-switch i think. Those two just rule on the snare here.
Fantastic video. 20 likes! Most of us will never get the opportunity to experience this so thanks for sharing. An addition that might be useful is to capture the snare in the room with a nice condenser. Then add the different spot mics in. Close mics on snare always sound strange in isolation. Overheads are a huge part of the snare sound :D
Hey man glad to see you trying out all these mics. Thank you. But tbh it was very hard to understand which mics where which. Next time could you loop the hits to run 2 bars and maybe highlight the track with the mic name playing so we know which mic is being used. Then compare them back to back like on the Akg 414's, then the Sennheiser 421's and 441, etc? I know it's a huge pain in the ass, but i appreciate it none the less as I can't buy all these mics and am always looking for my next mic purchase so these vids help! Keep up the good work.
Haven't seen the whole video yet, but here is what I would do for that bigger project: Use two Neumann U87's on the overheads as a spaced pair. This will make the sound of the snare eventually. If you do it right, all you need is an SM57 on the snare top to make the punch and maybe KM184 on the snare bottom if you want to catch the grey notes.
Yes, Yesper, it does. It isn't a secret setup though. If the kit sounds good, you can't go wrong with this one. Add two identical large membrane condensers in the roof of the room, insert a highpass filter at 140Hz, blend that in the mix and you get a massive & exciting drumsound.
I hugely enjoy content like this so keep going if it's worth your while. I know, for the reasons others have suggested, that it's value is limited however you do have to start somewhere. At least you can rule out what's really not working and worry about the rest of the kit, overheads, music and drummer style later. Good luck!
Hi wytse. Love your vids and your way of NOT bullshiting and saying it how it is. Keep up the great work, i have a pro studio here in chicago illinois yes in the USA lol I just have to say for the love of all that is recording snare where is the 57, heck i want to send you one to use as to compare. Anyways great channel keep up the great work i just had to mess with you a little hehe. Peace keep the snake oil coming wytse
Also one thing i do on my snares is mic top and side but not on the hole as i dont want to air creating a boom but pick part of the snare on the side to be in phase and to me i get better results thn bottom snare as not too much snare wire sound. Creativity is king @wytse keep it up.
Nice one! How about a search for a snare mic with most pleasant hihat bleed? Usually you can get pretty nice snare sound itself with just about any mic but the hihat bleed make your dental fillings detach.
Great insight, I've been using a Beyerdynamic M160 dynamic ribbon with good results, it seems to love snares! I've used an SM57 from time to time, now there's another Bayer mic here, an M88 which I'm going to try beneath the snare. I've never used the Senn 421, would love to try one - I've heard the newer black ones are brighter? Anyway this is good stuff!
Can this ribbon mic really be THAT CLOSE to a snare????? Ribbon mic as a room mic just = pure bliss... throw out all ur mics and just mic the room (centre kit, 2" away) and you'll wonder what you could've spent all that free time doing instead of micing a whole kit lol ;)
you really need to get a couple of 57... this comparison is not really referenced without it for me...
5 лет назад
hmmm one of the most important things for me when it comes to snare mics is the bleed you i'd be ultra thankful if you make one for that too ... in that regard i find the re20 perfect on snare as well as the beyerdynamic 201
studio guys know nothing about the tendencies of drums... bet those are the original snares on that ol' pearl there... 50 years of rust makes a difference too guys !!!!!
Next time can you give longer examples. Like 10 to 15 hits per mic? Couldn't tell the diffetence between the black, white, and gold 421's, as it was too quick. But I love these type of videos! Keep em coming!
the beyer dynamic m201 sounds cool to its a omnis version of the 202. realy good in a minimal mic setup. generally my favorites for loud drums are beyer dynamic m202/m201 m88 and the m400(soundstar) for drummers with a lighter touch a try a neumann km(1)84 first. they sound amazing with the right drummer
Shure 57 is the mic for Snare drum. Remember there will be a lot of drums playing around and you need a mic that will have a tight rejection. pattern. also it will take anything.
Even if they were gain matched, they are all miking different places on the snare and them being next to each other wil also affect how they record as well.
@@crimsun7186 When I do these comparisons, after fairly close gain matching, I let the the software normalize it so they have exactly the same peaks. That way it is easier to contrast all the other differences.
@@trackingstationneillindsay Even with that, you're not miking the exact same place, as two microphones cannot occupy the same space at the same time nor not interrupt with the sound of each other.
Love the idea of this video, but sadly the recorded snare samples are quieter than your voice, so it's really hard to crank up the sounds without being blasted by your voice. Would have been more useful if the snare audio was pumped through some compression and gained up, as that's most likely how it would be used anyway. What happened to the shell mic? I like micing the shell too, but I'd never put it right on the vent hole, because you'll get puffs of air into the mic.
I wanted to keep the samples original... But then I got into the youtube loudness compensation problems, because the snare drum was a super short transient sound. If I would lower my voice, youtube would start to compensate by turning up the volume of the whole video. Result: clipping.
Je had eigenlijk nog wel een Sennheiser e906 op bottom dr bij mogen gooien, mijn go-to samen met Audix i5 op top:) Maar dan wel op een Mapex Black Panther steele snare.
Snare mic day is always the best day. What nobody gets until they do it and find out first hand is that every mic+snare combo can make literally thousands of responses. You can get 1,000+ signature sounds with just 1 SM57 and 1 Ludwig 14'' Black Beauty. Now, of course, the folks who just default to slapping a SM57 on snare should all be slapped but that doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. In reality they are trying to save time, that's all it boils down to, it's just something everyone can agree on ''enough'' without a causing fistfight. The absolute best snare sound I ever got was for a drummer named Chad Smith (not the one in Red Hot Chili Peppers, the one from Geezer Butler Band who was a live 1990's Black Sabbath fill in for Bill Ward, and countless sessions for St. Louis area bands). He thought I was nuts but I placed a (v.1) AKG C-3000 about 6'' up and pointing directly over the rim, from between his hats/1st tom, toward the outer edge of the snares (ie about 3'' off center of the BOTTOM head) on a big custom wood rim Yamaha. Those mics have 2x diaphragms, one smaller diaphragm for the upper frequencies and a second for the lows. It's a concept that AKG used on a specific dynamic mic back in the late 1970s that few people ever learned how (or why) to use so they discontinued it. I had a couple of them, can't remember the name atm (they looked like a fat 451), and would use those any time I needed a poppy instrument to sit in a group setting that it would otherwise sound like it was from a different room/planet/universe because they have a totally crazed crossover thing in the 2.5k-4k range that just negated any need for correction. You mentioned ''magnetic inductance of a diaphragm'', well, that's close to what's going on, it has to do with the weight of the diaphragm and coil VS the magnet's inductance. It's close to sensitivity but it's more a moving mass, ''jumpy'', quality than an impulse response - like a delay or lack thereof in the sub millisecond range when the diaphragm begins to move. Objects that are in motion tend to stay in motion, ok, well, they don't when inductance is applied to a magnetic field that trying to stop them! What AKG figured out is that you could get a really jumpy high end with a super low mass small diaphragm and then use a second larger diaphragm to pick up all the slower NON IMPULSE tones after the inductance working on the coils of the smaller diaphragm had stopped it (ie the larger diaphragm was then free to pick up the remaining low signals AFTER the higher frequencies were long gone). Make sense? Anyway, that C-3000 did that thing but with a lot more sensitivity. So, when micing highly transient sources the larger diaphragm could focus on the mid register of the snare and it just &$%^ing POPPED. Slight bit of compression (4:1 @ 10ms attack w/ 8db threshold shooting for -6db - ie 2bd @ 4:1 = .5db compression, used like a very soft handed limiter) slammed onto tape at 7.5ips for increased saturation... I've still never heard anything like it. He was like ''OMG, DUDE! I've never heard my snare or anyone else's sound like that. It's like it's right in front of me! HOW THE?''. I gotta say, once you know how to do that you will never be satisfied with any other technique and will have to consider them all ''artistic'' to keep from being let down. It's not for everyone and most recordings / songs it would just kill the other instruments' vibe but if you want out of this world clarity and detail there's no other way that isn't a hair-pulling/depressing event.
Try a CONTACT microphone, probably the best mic you can use for instruments. Wintergatan has a video about it testing a cymbal recording. ...he ran a belt sander next to it, contact mic does not even pick up on it signal to noise ratio is insane.
Where you'd place the contact mic without it changing the cymbal sound? It might be a good choice on drums and instruments where the vibration of the instrument itself is not what produces the sound.
The way you did that rimshot...... is a bit funny. The way I learned it at the local music school was to rotate the stick 180 degrees and use the tip as pivot point against the rim, and then to use the thick part of the stick to hit the rim (and with the snare disengaged to slack position). Also a drummer wouldn't hold the stick as tight as you did, it looked really funny!
Damn. I'm a drummer/mixer and I realize our SM57 Beta (in duplo) is just not up to the task... guess I'll need a stereo 8 field mic for a great snare on both bottom and top in order to get perfect phase and fullness... No way our accountant is going along with that idea!! As mixer, our band DAW system got so expensive I'm now moonlighting as mixer for clients (which is excellent btw)
This way of shooting out mics just doesn’t seem practical as It doesn’t account for bleed and off axis rejection. For example, you may favor a mic that sounds perfect on its own, but then you set it up in the context of a full drum recording session, and all of a sudden the amount of bleed you are getting completely covers up the sound you wanted out of that mic.
A good snare tuned and dampened snare would have made this much more interesting :-) a SM57 met een D17 next to it is my preferred setup the SM for the power and the D17 for the low end.
dampening to get rid of the irritating overtones predominantly around the ring. I made a dampener that actally flies of on the hit and comes down in a little time only dampening the high tone in the sustain, sounds better than a side chained eq-->gate. The full body sound and only low and mid end sustain. Agreed that some (more expensive snares like black beauty en kenny aronoff (15" *4") does not need this.@MorbidManMusic
The Beta isnt 'better' its just neodyium and hypercardiod. I love them live on anything but guitars because they are much tighter. Hypercardiod means it will pick up more of maybe the annoying frequencies and less of the general snare sound.
Yeah, if the snare is tuned crappy, it will accentuate the crap. However if you tune the snare right, it will sound fab. And actually it's probably the best mic to use on a rack tom. It kills. Flat, no eq, sounds great as it is.
I'm Dutch and it's probably going to sound as funny to you as it is for me to hear him speak English :D (Just kidding, his English isn't as bad as most Dutch people speak)
Before I watch this... Surely the question you are asking is 'what mic is best for a this snare drum, being hit by me in this room in this exact position?' I like the idea and no doubt we'll learn something... but it ain't an exact science now is it 😅 With the md 421, sounds like the slightly obscure music/speech knob at the bottom was in a different position.
beta 57 its not a better sounding , i mean i like it better coz its more bassy but the thing its the any beta its hypercardioid and sm its cardioid thats the main thing.
Please, anyone out there watching this, do not learn from this video. This guy knows A LOT about gear, he knows A LOT about mixing and mastering, but clearly not a damn thing about tracking or mic placement. Any audio engineer will/does/should know every one of those mics without looking, and c'mon man, you couldn't find THE single most popular microphone for instrument recording in the world???? Are SM57s rare in your part of the world? Also, the placement of every one of those microphones will make the test invalid. Taping a mic over top of another?!?! C'mon, just use one stand, one pre, one cable, and swap the mic out after doing a few hits so you can put the mic in the same spot each time. Also, no drummer would hit a drum like that. Oh my goodness, man, like I said, you generally know your stuff and I've learned quite a bit from your channel, but this one...just isn't your wheel house.
God, I tried recording my snare for use in BFD and learned that I'm pants. It sounded awful. Even without the multi-samples. It sounded like a chair. :|
