What is the OP Civ Build for Germany? - Hoi4 

"Wasting days" nets you extra pp which does allow you to go to war economy faster.

@@71Cloak Indeed it does if you “waste” enough days, you lose the PP from the first 10 days when you eventually choose a focus. I’ve always found the difference between War Economy and Partial Mob to be small enough that I prefer the extra dockyards! :)

@@gaberobison680 k

I would rather take war economy tbh

@@gaberobison680 Not a bad idea. Anyone who acts like a dick on this comment doesn't understand other people have differing opinions.

Not really. You still get the 1940 tank chassis by nov 38 (earlier if you tech juggle it). Which is before you are likely to large amounts of factories on tanks anyways ( I always put factories on fighter 2s first) Its about 100 days later than if you haven't. I persobally have not had any problems with that time.

@@71Cloak Thanks for the confirmation!

i would agree, except the tank treaty focuses don't give research bonus on artillery

TBH, you can still rush tanks. You might not have as many for the start of the war, but tonks aren’t necessary for the invasion of Poland or France (at least in SP). And you’ll still have plenty of time to build up a large tonk force for barbarossa

@@Bruh-ff2tw they aren't "necessary" as in putting them on the line, but you still need a minimum of 3 actual combined arms divisions with motorized to follow and maybe some paratroopers to not take ridiculous and unnecessary losses

Ryan Kolbe not really. As Germany vs the AI you should win the air war uncontested. That alone will allow you to push with relative ease, even with just infantry. Combine that with breaking a cipher and having an intake network. You’ll be fine. And I’m testing it out rn to see if you can still get a few medium 2 divisions out before you declare on Poland.

I'm not counting the eventual fact of the larger opponent winning, I'm counting the overall losses you experience doing it the dumb way versus the sophisticated way.

No bro heavy 1s meta gaming.

works in sp, in mp that means you just gave 15% world tension early 36 to the allies, who all have slow eco growth at low tension.

I thought they removed that because I have tried to do that recently and if kept the bonus (maybe I just left it there for too long). Edit: you can't actually tie down both bonuses when delaying for construction, you can do it for 1937 dispersed you are correct, but not construction.

It’s a good SP strat, but don’t do it in MP or you’ll get pubstomped

Then you waste the bonus and don't get the PP for war eco

Yeah i am aware of that now. I thought they had patched it because it didn't work for me one time. I probably just left it in the slot too long.

PP guys actually put you behind in the short-term not ahead. Each one od them takes 500 days to pay themselves off and another 500 days to net you 1 advisor/designer. While you have 2 pp guys, I have 10% construction speed from free trade and the civ guy already rather than having to wait. If you notice I had 120 cics by mid 38 doing this build.

Yes, but depends on what youre playing. SP, MP or Modded MP all have different metas and general playstyles you can get. For SP what youre saying its not bad, but its not be best either, since Vanilla Germany doenst have that much to do with extra PP. Its not like Vanilla USA whom get broken if you give them extra PP at any point. For Vanilla MP, it would be bad, its best to just focus on getting a strong industrial base, rushing for Gobbels into War Eco is considered meta, for example. NSB changed a lot tho, so nothing says you cannot get away with it (You used to have to hardrush Heavy IIs before the tank changes for example) Modded MP, depends even further on what mod youre using, i wouldnt stress too much unless youre playing comp MP, which at that point why are you even looking to play this game to have fun? /jk

You'll be swimming in PP (oops, haha) with both Hess and Bormann. On historical, remember you lose Hess early. You can really use the slot for Canaris and be more effective in the spy game. But it's not an unreasonable strategy.

While rushing tank tech was essential pre- no step back, it isn't necessary anymore. With the tank meta shifting towards rivetted armour and low overall armour the tank chassis does not matter much especially for France. You can easily use the basic medium tank chassis and close support gun to build up efficiency and then switch when you have the improved. For mp you are getting fighter 2s in dec 37 so you should be putting most of the factories you are building on fighters to start because air is king.

@@71Cloak wait. How r u getting fighter 2 in dec 37. How is that even possible?

Italy rushes fighter 2s and can get them in dec 37 without tech juggling. After which romania steals fighter 2 tech from italy and uses it bonus for fighter 3s. Axis gets fighters 3s by sept 39.

It does give diminishing returns, it’s been a. While since I’ve done the math (pre NSB) but I still build infrastructure in the Rhineland, Westfalen, Moselland, Hessen, and Niederschlesien. Let me do some quick math for ya. Going from level 0 to level 1 infrastructure is an obvious 20% increase in speed. 1x to 1.2x. But going from level 1 to 2, 1.2x to 1.4x is only a 17% increase. So from level 4 to 5, 1.8x to 2x, is only an 11% increase. So there are diminishing returns, BUT it can still be worth it to build infrastructure depending on how many building slots are available. For simplicity in calculation I will be using infrastructure as a reduction to construction cost, rather than an increase to construction speed (the math works out the sam). Going from level 4 to 5 infrastructure costs 3334 construction cost and saves you 600 construction cost on all future civs, so you need to be able to build at least 6 civs in that state to make it worth it. And considering the amount of building slots you can get in the 4 states I named, it is mathematically worth it.

@@Bruh-ff2tw Ah, but doesn't this ignore the time spent not producing civilian factories? Sure, the total time it takes to actually finish construction there decreases, but the time spent making infrastructure is time where, had you made a Civ factory, that factory would have been contributing to your economy as well. So if anything, the return is even less than initially presumed.

Rovsea - It takes less than half the time to build that one infrastructure than it does to build the civ. Given how many building slots you have available for these buildings, you’ll end up with more civs in a shorter amount of time

@@Bruh-ff2tw Also the thing that made it super worth it post NSB is that now infrastructure also affects the build of speed of infrastructure itself, it didn't used to.

At this point he has a video about it and the short answer is no, it's not worth building infrastructure.

I probably would have stopped building civs when i hit 100 in a real game but its easier for testing purposes to just keep building civs.

Building up efficiency on early tier equipment doesn’t really matter. What matters is having a high number of mils ready for when you finish researching medium 2s and fighter 2, which doesn’t typically happen until late 38/early 39

@@Bruh-ff2tw I like to start Fall Weiss in summer '38. If I don't mil it up early, the battle of France stalls, and I won't have a Luftwaffe.

Free Trade will get you a 9% research bonus which is 60% of the bonus from industrial concern plus it gives 10% construction speed. Furthermore, Free Trade and War Economy are way more important. You can get the industrial concern after that point but you are past the point of the delay at that point.

Same, I usually go export focus in SP since you don't need to worry about being competitive

You shouldn't worry about resources as Germany until min 1940. From there you can go to export focus. That research speed boost and the others are simply too important to miss it's 1000% worth the 150 pp to switch off.

With Free trade bonuses you can easily set yourself to only focus building Civs even up until mid to late 39 as Poland+France are really a cakewalk with a bit of micro. You will have enough of those to then just mass build Mills and Synthetics to be sorta independent and focus on the eastern front. The only resource you will be lacking severely is rubber if you wish to go full meta and mass produce CAS

Early game equipment production is inconsequential. So taking a hit to production is fine, and even if you want to trade away civs for resources, it’s only around 2 civs (1 for rubber and 1 for aluminum)

No That's not what is being tested. This is a pure economy test. Doing 4 year plan 2nd would benefit doing the collab governments because getting the spy agency and doing the first collab would effectively be free compared to delay 4 year plan.

Yeah but the production you are getting when still building civs doesn't really matter since you are just generating garbage equipment with fairly few military factories.

The option which gives you more factories pretty easily.

You'll have enough building slots. I never hard rush dispersed 4 regardless of which focus order I go.

Bonuses for tank research. Allows you to get them much earlier. It also allows you to do army innovations 2 which gives 2 50% cost reductions to land doctrine and a couple more research bonuses. Doing it so early was to better time the research bonuses for industry from 4 year plan so you could use them on later techs.

2 or 3 on france (depends on your luck) someone should do 1 on poland.

You still going to have 1940 mediums by late 38 which is early enough to get out 6-8 tanks for France. More importantly, you should be mass producing fighter 2s over tanks to start with so that you have a numbers advantage in the air war. Once you get ahead in the air war its hard to lose it.

Austria rushes their industry tree so if you Anschluss early you miss out on free factories and infrastructure

キラ Yes, but I’d argue that getting an influx of 8+ extra civs after 140 days would be more valuable than gaining what, 12? Civs after a year and a half. Not to mention the war support Anschluss gives you means you can do war eco after your second focus without getting the advisor/ attaché

Infrastructure in Europe is usually high enough that it isnt worth it to max out

Yes. It is worth it to build infrastructure in the 4 80% western provinces.

@@Bruh-ff2tw No it's not. 71 has a video about it.

If your doing that you might as well do the double justification on poland and the Netherlands as well and get the rubber in the Dutch East Indies.

Why would you ever not get the 12 free civs. Thats the whole point of not delaying 4 year plan. You want the 12 civs sooner.

@@71Cloak Get the build speed bonuses and not delay the tank research any further maybe?

Its only about a 100 day delay on the tanks. You will still have them researched by oct/nov 38 by the latest. More than enough time to build 6-8 tank divisions for France and have air superiority.

You wont be building civs by the time the techs are finished.

That only shifts the balance towards going for 4 year plan straight after Rhineland even further. But it would also conflict with the test somewhat if he decided to not build on the 80% states. Also its not better to rush Anschluss if youre playing SP, its best to delay it till 38 to give Austria enough time to get down most of the generic industry focus tree. If you delay it until they take the infrastructure focues you will probably get Austria with two 100% infra states and one 80%

bONK bOKN Eh, with how many bonuses Germany gets to civ construction, you directly controlling ~8 civs now is stronger than controlling ~12 civs later. (I’m not sure what the actual numbers are, but Uber noticed that I end up with more civs rushing Anschluss than without)

Because its better to use the bonis on 1939 tech. It's further ahead of time and allows you to get it sooner.

1. I would never get enough navy experience before its completed. It will be completed by 100 days from the start of the game which is arpund when you will get integrated designers. 2. Waste of 30 pp.

I feel like you dont understand how industry testing is usually done. You generally speaking just continually build civs until a date far enough in the future that any differences will have shown up. Hell, I would arguebyou should probably delay anschluss even further than jn this video because then the allies will be locked out of their focus tree for even longer.

There is also the opportunity cost of doing that. The time spent building infrastructure you could have been building civs. Going from 1.8x bonus to 2.0x bonus is only an 11% increase which makes the time to catch up quite a while.

@@71Cloak that's why I would like to see if it's vialable medium or long term

@@71Cloak Do you think it would be possible to do a long term test if you built up your infrastructure to see how it affects the build as Germany as compared to not building up the infrastructure? Personally I never do it as germany as I dont think its worth it for the costs, but as the soviets I tend to do so as generally your building civs in your slots for so long I tend to think it helps.

Political loyalty does give 30% party stability at 100% fascism but it also gives 18% at 60% fascism. The difference is that much. Also you could always do the same build but getting goebbels instead of the attache. "5% less consumer goods earlier is actually better than the free trade buffs also since you are not hard teching anything since not going for medium 2 chassis. " This is just wrong for 2 reasons. 1. you are hard teching industry and will be the whole time and 9% research speed is 9% research speed. 2. Free trade gives a bigger boost to your construction output than war economy. By the time 4 year plan finishes (16 days after you would have gotten war eco) my way will have free trade + civ guy. A 20% construction speed bonus over war economy. When you do the math, free trade + civ guy has a construction output of 270/day and war eco's output is 264.4 despite having 4 more factories. Getting to this point free trade will already be up 2000 output and will gain until you get the civ guy. When you work it through to september when both will have war eco, free trade, and the civ guy; going free trade first is ahead by about 1200 output and has 50 more pp. "optimal time is July 37" you are not the first person to tell me this and I disagree with that person every time. While I would have built civs as long in a mp game as this, I would always build until the end of 37. If you anschluss in july 37 (austria had done its factory focuses) and stop building civs that month (finish current) you ae going to have 85 civs. If I'm the allies I am licking my lips at Germany only have 85 civs. If you build to the end of 37 you will have 102 civs, a much more dangerous Germany.

@@71Cloak Yes, you get free trade around 100 days later, I guarantee if you done the same build but with war eco first you’ll get more factories and output. Also the reason you go early mills is because you do early war in around march 39, and go total mob and constant war bonds for your civs.

Literally did the math for you but burying you head in the sand and ignore it. It okay.

Because that's not even close to historical and is not at all what is being tested. If you are going to do that you might as well just do the double justification on Poland and the Netherlands.

@@71Cloak Justification is bad because it doesn't make Danzig your core.

It takes 1,5 years before concentrated catches up with dispersed and 0.5/1 more years before it gets much better than dispersed. I guess if u rush the planes and then improve them from stockpile it could work out

@@alexwhite3830 yeah, main deal is you are doing this for the minor boost in overall air production at the most important point in the game production wise,(100% of efficiency cap in 36), so you can stay in the air war longer, have a more lethal base of fire for your Navy, and have more combined arms divs ready by 39. I personally start 4 on arty, and eventually turn all my gun 2 production and factories gained by the anschluss and fate of czech into my first med while I rush arty 2 for the med cannon.

Germany in SP should be able to win the air war regardless, so I would just stick to concentrated

im listening

100 for fighters. Larger when you are naval bombing (200 or more). For some reason you tend to lose more bombers using 100 vs 200 when naval bombing.

@@71Cloak got it, thanks!

10 with aces, they'll never die

What? I did tech juggle construction.

@@71Cloak no i meant juggling your actual construction. lets say you have 20 factories contructing, its 15 on one factory then 5 on another. when the first 15 finishes and begins a new contruction on the same state, it is more efficient to switch the second factory in the queue to become the first in the queue, as it has some building progress on it and finishes contruction with now 15 factories rather than 5 or 6. Not sure if i explained it right, sorry if its confusing, like i said before i find you doing that allows to finish factories quicker and get more out of the queue.

@@jam8539 that doesn't actually do anything long-term. I did a whole video on it. The net effect of build civs while juggling until 1940 vs not juggling is a few days. It is not worth the micro.

same bro

120 pp for 70 days is a net of 50 pp. Its also required to do anschluss and the rest of the focuses.

I think going for the Netherlands as your #1 action is the best course of action. WT is too low for others to act and you get a ton of resources from your newly gained puppet in Southeast Asia.

The answer is yes, but you also need slots, LOTS of building slots, that's why getting +20% max factories is essential. You should try Tall-ish Bulgaria, go fascist, and Stack as much "Factory in state" modifier, with the agricultural union Guy and a bonus in your focus tree + free dockyards focus for building slots, you Can get a lot of civs by 39, then convert, produce tanks, and ravage the eastern front with 2 40-width tanks.

@@clementlefevre5384 very well, I mostly play allied countries, so that rarely is a problem. I thought factory slots were really only an issue if you go non-historical as Germany. After all, if you need more slots, just conquer new places.

Not unless there is another spike in world tension. Just Rhineland along is 5 wt. UK needs >5 wt to do shadow scheme. Also, UK doesnt want those research bonus for industry yet. So if they go and get those bonuses they are going to waste them on 1937 tech rather than use them on 1939 tech.

Did you get free trade and the civ guy and remember to switch to building in the autobahn region after the focus.

Define very late 1940 mediums. I still get them by Oct 38 which is early enough. The days saved on research is actually a wash because you get the research slot 120-140 days earlier. All the time spent on getting dispersed 3 later is saved by getting the research slot earlier. Also, you don't need to rush at tech that hard, you don't need improved medium cannons to take out France.

@@71Cloak no you dont need them at all but the improved high velocity canon is crucial for killing russia and the faster you get it the more you will have vs russia so yes it is a rush and you should have a research slot on at all game

@@alexanderholt4679 you can use tds and heavy cannons as a stop gap measure until you get improved hv cannon. Improved heavy cannons cost more but have same hard attack piercing and higher soft attack.

@@71Cloak yeah but then there are pther drawbacks like resource imports less org less breakthrough less org regain and others with td in the div

No you cant. German starting navy only generates about 0.435 naval xp per day. Thats 70 days to get integrated designer. Which means you will be half way finished it before you even get integrated designers. You'll save 6 days. Which doesnt really matter, you're going to get the full tech juggle off anyways.

Doing Rhineland first is good though, you get pp and the WT doesnt matter first focus because it goes down

Yeah but if its over getting as many civs as possible then autarky first is best considering its 70 days with bonus 10% construction speed, + you can get the civilian industry guy from the start so its actually 20% bonus construction speed compared to doing rhineland first

@@alphacore2448 That’s true. Not viable for MP though

If your going for an ahistorical world conquest sure. If you do that you shoild double justify on poland as well so you can declare on both of them at the same time.

​@@71Cloak With the exception of the Netherlands, I plan to play historically. No sea lion until I win the war against the Soviet Union and drive the allies out of the Mediterranean.

10 more mils.. I'll still have around 8 tanks for France, but 10 more mils is 10 more mils. Also those early tanks are going to suck anyways because you aren't going to have the at research done yet. The earliest you can get improved medium cannon is Sept 39 (hard teching from beginning of game). So missing out on a few tanks that are going to have bad stats anyways is definitely worth having 10 more mils.

@@71Cloak 10 more mils or 2 more tanks for france and for barb 6-8 tanks are gonna better chasis earlier like what are you saying

@@RqlaPvP how are you going to have 6-8 more tanks for barb with less mils and an overall worse economy? your just taking nonsense at this point. Production efficiency cap does not snowball like that, not even in the slightest. Even while delaying treaty with the ussr you are going to have tanks by oct 38 which is a year before you get the good cannon for them. The advanced chassis doesn't matter because your never going to take advantage of the speed difference and the reliability/armour differences don't matter. Ignore me though. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand thinking your so good because you have memorized a guide someone else wrote.

@@71Cloak 6-8 more tank 3's like is literally better please stop

I can smell the civgreeder LOL you trying to "change" the meta that has been debunk hundreds of time lowest iq player

I have tech juggled that precisely in MP. You select the research slot before the 30th then swap on the 30th. Worst case scenario you lose a day of research. I even mention you should delay slightly longer for MP just so you have a bit of a window in case you are bad at microing quickly.

I never said you should actually build civs until mid 38. It's just the most straight forward method of testing an economy. "0 efficiency base" this is wrong you get 5 % efficiency base per tech, not getting 41 tech just means you have 15% bonus instead of 20%.

@@71Cloak 5% is huge

You're not going to have dispersed 4 when you start your fighter 2 or 1940 medium tank production lines. It's only going to apply to the new factories built after you get that tech which is a miniscule boost. Getting 9% more civs in the same time period is way more impactful than your alternative.

@@71Cloak play a multilayer game and see

@@adamc9834 i have played as Germany post NSB and did a pretty similar build (same start). I had more than enough production to win the air war and have a decent number of tanks for Barb. I even managed to sealion.

It also allows the UK and most of the allies to start doing their good focuses which is determental to you. (Also banned in most historical mp games)

Its better to delay Anschluss as much as possible to give time for Austria to go down the generic industry tech and get more infra and civs/mills. The only real limiting factor for it is MP rules that force you to take it at a certain date.

U dont need to follow the Meta u know. It is only for MP.