@@longiusaescius2537An example should be taken from the Eastern Orthodox Church which has had difficulty disciplining the national church idea. I am EO, don’t accept the papal claims of “immediate and universal jurisdiction,” and oppose the papal pretensions of the so-called Ecumenical Patriarch. But, condemned as it is, ethnic-phylitism as a heresy is rather rampant amongst the churches. There’s no easy solution, but there is a simple one: the Gospel itself. I’d rather see the papacy reformed according to Tradition, actual ruling synods restored, and the pope subject to general councils and his brother patriarchs than the Roman Church divided into national enclaves. Just my insignificant view!
@@nathannorris900yeah. That one was really bad. Like i could understand what the Pope was trying to do and i do believe there was some good in his document but the wording of it and how it was declared without consultation with the rest of the Catholic world left a sour taste to a lot of people.
Oh now you’re cooking this is what I’ve been waiting for. Please continue to cover these types of groups, the non “mainstream” liturgical groups. I find them particularly interesting
I live next door to a PNCC parish! The pastor is a former coworker of mine. The PNCC parish here was formed in the 1890s by Polish residents who accused their Roman Catholic pastor of dishonesty regarding the parish's finances and administration. When an Episcopal Court found no wrong-doing by the pastor, ~10% of parishioners took steps to break away, leading to the PNCC parish that still exists today.
Would sound nice to go to a Catholic Church that isn’t actually Roman Catholic and doesn’t hold the dirty past of the medieval church as well as papal controversy.
I realize you're probably not a theologian or an apologist, but would you be able to answer this question I have? I know that St. Mary is held to be a perpetual virgin by the PNCC, but is it a dogma (like her status as Mother of God), or is it something that one can reach a different conclusion on and remain in good standing (like the PNCC's view of original sin)?
@@jessefoutz597 hi! so the perpetual virginity of Mary is held as dogma in the PNCC since it was affirmed at the 5th ecumenical council. "Fifth Ecumenical Council - II Constantinople A.D. 553 - The Capitula of the Council: VI “If anyone shall not call in a true acceptation, but only in a false acceptation, the holy, glorious, and ever-virgin Mary, the Mother of God ... let him be anathema" (this quote comes from the Eastern Diocese's website). Hope this answers your question!
@@ivc3092 that's a great question. tbh, i actually plan on jumping ship eventually to either Rome or the Orthodox after discerning which holds the best claim to being the one true Church. however, right now, i'm using my Old Catholic heritage as a way to unite Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians on my college campus. i'm not catholic or orthodox enough to be rejected on face by protestant groups, i'm not protestant or orthodox enough to be rejected by catholic groups, and i'm not protestant or catholic enough to be rejected on face by orthodox groups. this has been useful in bringing good faith dialogue to campus when there was little before (albeit it did also lead to me and my gf breaking up since she does no consider non-protestants to be Christian :'), but it's a sacrifice i'm willing to make for God)
@@jatar6605 See, that's interesting, though, because the anathema is on those who fake calling the BVM the Mother of God, not who deny that she is ever-virgin. The council calls her that a few times, but it's always in passing and not the topic of the anathema. I'll have to read the Eastern Diocese's statement, I think.
As a Pole, I must admit that I appreciate covering the topic of theirs. I feel like the PNCC is quite overlooked, even among Poles themselves. I also appreciate the fact that you pronounced the magazine's title perfectly. We also have a distinct church known as Mariavites.
PNCC is basically USA & Canada only. I doubt if they have any presence in Poland, if yes, it is minimal. Regarding Mariavites - it is minuscule sect, but quite interesting theologically. :P
@@jeffkardosjr.3825 I don't argue with that. What I meant is that Polish National Catholic Church operates outside of Poland (as far I checked they don't have any parish in Poland). In Poland there exist Polish-Catholic Church of the Republic of Poland but as far I checked it is still part of Union of Utrecht.
@@Hadar1991 Well for a long time the PNCC was cut off from Poland. Poland was split between the German and Russian empires, so there wasn't a Polish state beyond a title the Russian Emperor claimed. The US closed immigration with WW1. Poland shortly reestablished. Occupied again. And then the Polish Peoples Republic which probably wasn't very interested in religion.
Fun fact: Some years ago, some parishes of the Nordic Catholic Church in Scandinavia entered into full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church (ROCOR), becoming Western Rite Orthodox.
@@traceyedson9652 I unfortunately do not have specific information, but NCC favours old forms of the Roman Rite, so believe the parishes that joined ROCOR have them too, perhaps Sarum Use.
I wish there were more support among Eastern Orthodox for the western rite, which is every bit as valid an expression of ancient Christian worship as the Byzantine rite. I'd love to see the PNCC join us, but be able to retain their own traditions.
Very interesting one... what struck me was some of their more distinctive sacramental practices, and how some of the language in English has been "modernized." Thanks Joshua.
I don't know how many english-language materials are available on the subject but another interesting polish denomination is the Mariavite Church which has a lot of fairly, let's say, curious theological positions.
There's a Polish Catholic church in my home town. The few times I've walked passed there during service times It was always packed, with many standing outside as they couldn't find a place within!
Would you consider doing a video on the Czechoslovak Hussite Church? I don’t think they have any sort of presence outside of the Czech and Slovak Republics, but they would still be an interesting group to learn about.
oh man, they are really interesting (not to mentioned Hussite history), I am polish and read only few articles about them. I would love that kind of a video
You know you're doing a good job of representing these when both followers & non-followers thank you. Thank you! I would like to also encourage you to make an SSPX explanation video. What a hot potato!
Interesting, because I was recently asking about this Church which is down the road from the Polish Catholic Church. An old lady told me, from her experience, the Poles who came abroad after the war, and wanted to remarry, went with this "National church" because it allowed them to marry even though they had wives in Poland.
So they left the Church over lust and went to a false church that would cater to their sins. Why does that sound familiar? *flashbacks of anglican and lutheran cults*
Excellent video, as always! For those interested, the PNCC was formed during a time when immigrant Catholic communities were struggling to form their own parishes staffed with their own immigrant priests. These parishes were known as National Parishes. The American Catholic bishops worked vociferously against this trend. As a result of continued tensions between immigrant Catholic communities and the American Roman Catholic bishops, several of these communities left Catholic Communion, notably the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Greek Catholics and Polish Roman Catholics. The Ukrainian and Ruthenians left and became the Orthodox Church in America and the Poles became the PNCC.
I''m sorry, but your last sentence is factually incorrect. The OCA was simply the Russian Orthodox Church in America. It became autocephalous in 1924 because Patriarch Tikhon was under arrest and couldn't properly administer the Church, especially outside of Russia. The Ruthenian Catholics became the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese.
@aLadNamedNathan those are two separate autochephalous communions the O.C.A. (Orthodox Church in America) which has its origins in the original poster described and is under the Elpidophoros. Then there is R.O.C.O.R. (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) which is under the Patriarchate of Moscow. There are also other communions in the U.S. like the Bulgarians but all these communions are in at least partial communion with each other
I just watched your request for videos in 2024 yesterday and I thought, I haven't seen a video of yours on the PNCC yet, I should mention them in a comment. Too late now! Thank you for covering this small but regionally well-known denomination! The other member church in the Union of Scranton is the Nordic Catholic Church, they and the PNCC have overlapping similarities with high-church Anglicans and Episcopalians.
Fascinating and thorough overview. I was especially interested because of the ordination of British commentator Calvin Robinson by a bishop in the Union of Scranton. You made it very clear why he would have chosen that line in which to be ordained.
The English language Wikipedia claims he's "Old Catholic". But many Wikipedia pages are wrong it seems. I'm an Anglican and I haven't heard of news one way or the other about his new status of ordination other than that he is a priest now rather than a deacon.
@@jeffkardosjr.3825he was ordained in the Nordic Catholic Church after the Free Church of England agreed to release him. The NCC is the European branch of the Union of Scranton bringing him into union with the Old Catholics
I live in this area, there are several PNCC churches in the Scranton, Wilkes-Barre area. Polish immigration was very prevalent in my area and several Roman Catholic Churches in my area were also formed by Polish.
Well, a good start in terms of videos dealing with Old/Independent Catholic Churches. As far as dealing with smaller, more ephemeral jurisdictions, you may need to devise questionnaires to be answered by representatives of said jurisdictions. This is because in many of these cases, such documents as those you quoted to document the beliefs and practices of the PNCC do not necessarily exist. I am a priest in one such Church, a Church that is rather unique in this regard since it is non- Chalcedonian. However I have been following this general movement for about 40 years. If I can be of help to you in any way in making these videos, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Please do a video about Binitarian movements and denominations, Sir! Hapoy New Year, and thanks for your unfailing quest to teach and enlighten both Christendom and the wider world!
Thank you as always. Our communion - the United Ecumenical Catholic Church - is a second or third cousin of the Old Catholic, PNCC, and other Independent Sacramental churches. I do appreciate their soteriological universalism.
Raised in and devotedly practiced the Roman Catholic faith until the age of 19. Converted to a Reformed Protestant viewpoint at 22. Searching for a church body that I could fully agree with ever since. I'm 74. It appears that the PNCC is the church I have been looking for all my life. This video is a "deep dive" for sure... and very helpful. Thanks.
@@nisibonum7634 well,given that the vast majority of religious people just believe that the religion they were accidentally born in is true,any spiritual research is a quite commendable effort.
@@luigisantoriello3289 I guess it comes down to what kind of research. Does one decide what they think is right and find a church that matches that. Or does one surrender themselves to the Holy Spirit and through access to what one knows is true, look to allow themselves to be obedient to and guided by the Holy Spirit and Jesus. Even if that is not what they personally like.
PNCC still has relations with Polish Catholic Church (Polish member of Union of Utrecht). There were speculations previous year about the possibility of episcopal ordinations from PNCC for Polish Catholic Church.
We had a Polish National Catholic Church parish in Park Slope Brooklyn when I was young. I knew families who attended there. The church building was sold years ago and demolished . What a shame.
The PNCC was actually REALLY CLOSE to union with the Orthodox through the AWRV back in the 1970’s. Unfortunately, due to disagreements about bishop celibacy, that union never occurred. That being said, some OCA priests actually continue to lead some PNCC retreats, providing us with hope that one day this horrible schism will end!
For those PNCC members in the comments, I have a question: why hasn't the PNCC attempted to establish communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church? It seems to me some of the changes made after breaking communion with Rome align with Orthodoxy significantly. This isn't a rhetorical setup or anything, I'm genuinely curious
Most would honestly consider them a cult as opposed to a denomination. A book called "A World More Bright" is a biography on Marie Baker Eddie and covers a good amount of their theological roots, though not where the church has gone since.
Definitely more of a Cult. And their beliefs can definitely be confusing for Christians. Started by Mary Baker Eddy. More Metaphysics than Christian religion. God is seen as a Devine principal rather than a n actual Being. Sin, evil, sickness, and death are only illusions and not reality. Hope this brief explanation helps. ✝️🙏🙂
Is that Fr. Adam Kotas in the thumbnail? I was going through RCIA in the Diocese (now Archdiocese) of Las Vegas when he founded his new PNCC parish. There was a letter from the Bishop of Santa Rosa in our bulletins to inform Catholics throughout the Las Vegas area about Fr. Adam and his schism from the Church.
There is some dialogue between the PNCC and some Anglican churches. I noticed on the PNCC's Facebook a posting of a meeting. Anglican Province In America, Anglican Church In America, and Anglican Catholic Church. With the OCA also meeting with them.
I am with a Catholic CHurch independent of Rome with the same apostolic lineage as the PNCC (as well as many others). I found the video helpful in learning that the PNCC did not originate in Poland! That was a rel surprise to me.
I’m a Jew who grew up with a Polish Roman Catholic background in Scranton. The PNCC was a weird thing growing up in Scranton, especially with a dying Polish community. The Catholics there knew about it and would have interwoven relationships but everyone was distinct come Sunday.
You'd be fascinated with the story of St. Stanislaus Kostka Polish Catholic Church in St. Louis, MO, if you're not already familiar. They were Roman Catholic, but then there was a years-long court battle and ultimately a split that started as a dispute over ownership of parish land and property (I had the chance to follow the beginnings of that battle during my time as a radio news reporter in St. Louis). They're not part of the PNCC (although there is a PNCC parish just west of St. Louis), they seem to be totally independent, and in fact appear to be open and affirming to the LGBTQIA+ community... at least for now.
@@jiminycricket1593 it's been 18+ years since they were excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, and 10+ years since the St. Louis archdiocese ended its court fight for St. Stanislaus' property (which St. Stan's won, by the way), and they're still kickin'. So losing the hate hasn't emptied the offering plate, if you will indulge a rather clunky rhyme 🙂 There are a handful of church members who have voiced interest in reconciling with Rome/the STL archdiocese, as I understand it; if that minority grows to a "we control your purse strings" size, that would be more likely to bring about your prophecy.
Thank you for discussing the PNCC, and also for mentioning the smaller independent Catholic denominations! I'm planning to study for ordination in one of the latter. Very few seem to know either exist. Happy New Year Joshua!
They are not Catholic denominations. They are really just protestant Churches calling themselves Catholic. That's in my view a more accurate description, in my opinion. Hodur was excommunicated which means he didn't go to Heaven when he died. I'd consider just re joining the actual Catholic Church.
Why don’t you become an actual catholic? You can’t just form ur own denomination that differs from church antiquity because you want too. There is only One Church, throughout all of Church History everyone affirmed this. Branch theory didn’t exist until at least 1500s and you could argue wasn’t fully fleshed out until 1800. Either you are Catholic or you are not. There are no “independent Catholics” that’s a contradiction in terms. Either you are in the universal church or you are not.
I grew up in the Wyoming Valley of NEPA. Through the towns of Wilkes Barre, Scranton and the former coal mining town have parishs. I wished that the Trads would consider a similar course of action instead of constantly bashing the Holy Father.
so now I'm wondering what is preventing the pncc from sharing communion with the Eastern Orthodox church as a whole? genuinely curious, because it's sounding like a harmonious blend of Western and Eastern theology
EO doesn’t view denominations, apostolic succession, & communion in the more formalistic & mechanistic manner that Westerns do. It’s much more relational, which makes it more complicated since there is really no procedure for reconciling groups in the West who have left the Roman obedience without “becoming Orthodox.” Since we view the EO Church as holding the Faith of the “undivided” Church, entering into Her communion is seen as the natural step. Some local Churches provide for a Western Rite. But recognizing “orthodoxy” in another “denomination” and receiving them as a Sister Church would probably require a pan-Orthodox consensus. And such a thing is currently impossible with Moscow & Constantinople is schism over ecclesiology. Willing to be corrected by better-informed Orthodox. But that’s my understanding as a layman!
“Catholic” is the Faith. To argue that “Catholic” is “Roman Catholic” because it dogmatizes the exclusivist papacy which teaches it do it must be held to be Catholic is circular reasoning. Roman Catholics need to do a much better job of presenting their case non-arrogantly in public. These mere assertions of dogma are a bit embarrassing.
"Anagignoskomena, " without missing a beat. Practice or "No sweat, I took Greek". I don't have any Greek but my grandfather said the accent was on the antepenultimate instead of the penultimate syllable. Weird the lessons we sometimes pick up from grandparents.
Lehet, hogy remek a video, de FÁRASZTÓ egy folyamatosan beszélő arcot nézni.... ha a szöveg jó, miért kell látszódni is? Mindenesetre köszönöm a megosztást.
Hodur responded to excommunication the same way Luther did. This is the first time I have ever heard of denomination, or even church, that requires membership dues to its members.
What's kind of odd is that the Boston Archdiocese had separate Polish churches from the early 1900s through the 1990s, in all cases I'm aware of literally just down the street from the "regular" Catholic church. These were NOT PNCC churches, but Roman Catholic churches catering to a particular ethnicity. These churches were official with their own clergy and so on. I think at their height there 20 or so churches so designated. All gone now. Just mentioning this because I somehow thought it was something similar under discussion in the video, not a separate denomination.
A lot of times, at the turn of the 20th century, Catholic dioceses established what was known as a national parish for particular countries. The folks in those national parishes had their spiritual needs met, usually by a priest from their own country, and the bishop didn't have to listen to complaints from diocesan priests who weren't thrilled with a strange language (the Mass was in Latin in Roman parishes, so that didn't matter, but everyday requests did). In the Chicago Archdiocese, Our Lady of Pompeii (Italian) and St. Alphonsus (German) were once for immigrants and their progeny.
Another chief reason the denomination in this video was established was having the Mass in Polish. Every Roman Catholic parish until the 1960’s, even the ethnic ones, had the TLM.
bishop off Rome is in Lateran, Pope always was is and soon will bee back in Vatican and antipopes where in Roman Curia and Vatican Curia as now a such contemprorary is, may he be only shortly,is unfortunatly the curent antipope
The Anglican Communion no longer exists as such except on paper. Nearly the entire global south has repudiated the primacy of Canterbury and are not in communion with ECUSA, Canada, Australia, etc.
Thank you for your well researched and produced videos. Do you happen to know the Roman Catholic Church’s view on the last days, the rapture, the second coming and tribulation, the reaping or the earth by the angels? Is the book of Revelations in chronological order with regard to the events it depicts? Or is it symbolic Hebrew poetry? Thanks in advance. Also does the RC church believe a person can lose their salvation? Or is it that a person that was a believer beforehand can simply change their mind? Some say that means they were never a believer to begin with. I’m trying to explain the difference to someone.
No. The Catholic Church has not given any official interpretation on those mysteries as far as I know. The Catholic Church does not teach once saved always saved. It teaches that you can lose your salvation. It reasons that the wages of serious sin is death. They do not believe in once saved always saved.
@LilyoftheValeyrising To further elaborate on what Catholics believe, if one commits a serious sin, what Catholics call "mortal sin" you loose your justification. Unless you receive absolution i.e go to confession and confess these sins to a Catholic Priest you are going to hell. You can be forgiven by God for a mortal sin if you cannot reach a Priest to make a confession if one has complete and perfect contrition for that mortal sin. However the normative means of absolution for mortal sin must come in the form of the sacrament. The Church does teach their are exceptions depending on your circumstances and God is not bound by his sacraments. In Catholicism, there are two kinds of degrees to sin, mortal sin or deadly sin. Then there is venial sin, or sin not unto death. The reasoning for mortal and deadly sins vs venial sins distinction is taken from the New Testament where it is written that there is sin "not unto death". I can elaborate further if you are interested in a more in depth theological explanation. I was pressed for time responding to your question so I had to keep it brief. It is not in Catholicism necessary for you to be without sin in order to be saved under the New Covenant. Only that you be in a state of grace or friendship with God. In order for a sin to be considered a deadly sin the Church has laid out criteria that must be met for it to he deemed a mortal sin. Three conditions must be met in order for the sin to be considered a grave sin. Lastly, when the Catholic goes to confession and the Priest forgives the sin, this is not the Priest actually forgiving the sin. It is actually Christ doing so, the Priest is merely acting in the person of Christ. Catholics believe the Catholic Church was given authority to bind and to loose sin. This authority was transmitted to the apostles and it's outlined that this happened I believe in John 20:23 👇 "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ☝️ The apostles obviously could only exercise this authority if one confessed their sin to the Apostles. Hence confession. Sin according to Catholicism is not just personal, it affects the entire community. The Priest is there to also be a witness to the community that you have repented or your sins. There are actually some similarities to Judaism here. For example, when Jesus heals a man of his disease, he tells the man to still show himself to the Priest that he is healed. For the sake of the communities verification that the man has been restored. Likewise grave sins damage the community and Priest is a witness to the community of sorts that you have been restored to the community. At least that's how I understand it. See this passage below: LUKE 17:14 "When he saw them he said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went they were cleansed." 1 John 5:16 "If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death.👉 I am not saying that you should pray about that. 👈 Here we learn the Bible is saying that for serious sin, you cannot just pray for it to be healed. If it is a sin not unto death one can be prayed for and the sin can be abolished. But no such instruction is given for serious or deadly sins. That's because we believe the Bible teaches the gravity of the sin may only be lifted under normative circumstances through the sacrament of reconciliation, or baptism which the Church teaches washes away ALL SINS (this was always the original understanding of baptism among Christians which changes after the protestant reformation takes place). I hope you found this insightful and helpful to further your understanding of Catholic beliefs and if you read all that then thank you, I took time out of watching two busy little kids to explain all that because I wanted you to have a better explanation.
@@dman7668 Thank you very much for the detailed response. The Bible verses you quoted are some of the reasons I left Protestantism and became Catholic. The church is such a blessing in my life. Thanks for the encouragement.
I go to Trinity Bible Church in Phoenix. We have no authority but the Bible, Jesus is our Pope. I know Alice Cooper from Camelback Bible Church. Fist 👊 bump. School's out for summer . . .
@@flameguy3416 do you know the FULL TRUTH of Christianity's 2000yrs history? Was your faith tradition there at the compilation of the bible? Plz, plz dont say that you are that ignorant. with the internet at the tip of our fingertips, fact checking should not be a problem.
fun fact in the picture of the old catholic bishop of the USA, bishop john of shanghai and San Francisco is there, one of the most well known american states
@@kacpergalik609 Thank you! They were much more numerous at the beginning of the movement. One stands to be corrected, was not Sister Faustina Kowalski 'implicated' at the start?
This video is educated me on the fact that the PNCC it's not a bunch of heretics in a Protestant denomination, but a truly Apostolic, though unfortunately schismatic, member of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
@@dman7668If you have something to say, say it. This is an ecumenical site, and most/many do not accept the papal claims to Vatican I. And many millions who don’t pre-existed both Protestantism and those dogmatic claims. So “it basically is” just doesn’t cut it.
@traceyedson9652 There isn't any difference in practice between protestantism and whats going on here. That's my point. They both reject the authority of the magesterium of the Catholic Church. Call it whatever you like but it really is just protestantism. They both reject the same authority.
I live in Poland. These guys have zero influence. Noone knows they exist. I wouldn't be surprised if people who attend their parishes don't know they're diffrent from the regular Catholic Church.
Happy New Year Joshua! The city of Utrecht is not in the province of North Holland or the province of South Holland, but in the province of Utrecht of the Netherlands.
monneapolis mn has a Polish National Catholic church, but, they do follow Rome. many churches were edtablished for communities from different countries. ukrainian, greek, etc.
At 4:20, with the "National Catholic" and the "American National Catholic," I can't help but think of the constituents of Major League Baseball. ⚾ If rival sports leagues can come together, then maybe there is hope for Christian denominations? ✝️
It disappoints me to learn that they have such a prominent universalist streak, however much they may try to distance themselves from the term. They've been one of my favorite non-Lutheran denominations recently.
I had a Protestant friend who was of Austrian descent. I asked her how come she was not a Catholic since Austria is a majority Catholic country. She told me her great grandfather wanted to bury a relative and at the time the local Catholic priest told him he would not say the final rites unless he was given a substantial amount of money. Her ancestor then went to a Protestant pastor and when he was told the Pastor would give the final rites for free, he converted to Protestantism.
On the surface it seems similar to Anglican. A tendency toward one size fits all makes practical sense for any large governing body, be it the Catholic Church or whatever, but distance is inevitably felt.
When I first heard of this outfit a few years ago I assumed that it was an Old Catholic Church from Poland but other than the ethnic origins of most of its members it doesn't seem to have much to do with the nation of Poland.I think that the Polish National Church was a bit too hard line for the mainstream Old Catholics and have drifted away.
Wait, what the heck LMAAAOOOO. This is actually a narrative and world-building talking point in Cyberpunk 2077. How the Polish Catholic Church splits from the Holy See because of major differences of opinion. And then the Polish Church elects their own pope and they declare Poland as the head of the Catholic Church
It's dumbfounding how they have a cathedral named after the Holy Rosary of Our Lady, but the doctrine of this church is a departure from Orthodox and Catholic beliefs.
When will another Ecumenical Council be convened to solve all the disputes? Enough of National Churches we need the Pentarchy back or this time let's have a Dodecarchy (12 Patriarchs based on the 12 Apostles/Disciples)