Really good video Sam, I agree with everything you have said. Good advice for people who want to know how things work, without having to listen to my complex ramblings! ;) Now, speaking of complex ramblings, if anyone would like to know a bit more on Brushed DC Motor operation, then this is for you: Power is applied onto the brushes of the motor, which then makes contact to 2 of the commutator plates. This then creates a circuit from one commutator plate, through a winding of the motor (called an electromagnet - an electromagnet is basically a magnet which can be turned on and off by passing current through windings or turns of wire) and then eventually out the other side of the winding and returns through the brush, through the pickups to the track. The winding creates a magnetic field that is aligned with the position of the brushes (for example N at the left brush and S at the right). Then, the permanent magnet that is located within the motor creates a magnetic field too (for example N at the left brush and S at the right). Because N want to align with the permanent magnet's S pole, and S wants to align with the permanent magnet's N pole, the armature starts to rotate as it wants to align itself with the magnetic fields of the permanent magnet, so it turns as N is attracted to the permanent magnet's S pole, and pulls the motor round as it wants to align. But, because the brushes are now connecting to different commutator plates (or contacts) the N & S poles are still being generated in the same position next to each of the brushes, causing the armature to realign itself with the permanent magnet's magnetic fields, and the cycle keeps continuing as the magnetic fields pull the armateur around as they keep trying to align with each other. This causes a continuous rotating motion, and makes the motor spin continuously, as the magnetic fields from the windings of the motor, created by applying power to 2 commutator contacts, keep trying to realign themselves with the magnetic fields of the permanent magnet. Thanks for reading folks, hope this helps, and sorry to Sam for clogging his comments with an oversized message! :D
Very useful video - I see that the first motor flywheel you showed was really badly balanced - or more correctly the central hole was not concentric with the turned diameter of the flywheel. That won’t help the motor bearings to last; or positively contribute to nice smooth running. Brings me back to the days when I used to competitively race model slot cars - I used to rewind and balance the armatures with thicker wire, fit stronger magnets and shim these closer to the armature, introduce ways of taking heat away from the brush gear, etc etc etc. THOSE were the days 😂 - now I just use mostly out of the box RTR (or kit-bashed) Bachmann On30 narrow gauge on my layout.
Excellent review Sam. Even I who worked in a motor design and manufacturing company, was not aware of what a coreless motor was. We made brushless motors which I to was assuming they were. And yes indeed, brushless motors need major electronics to actually work. I'm most impressed with how you deliver the dialogue without lots of ums while you think of the next thing to say. Do you type this all out on a que card (laptop screen) in advance, rehearse it or are you a naturally gifted public speaker ? Whatever you do, it works mate.
Thanks Andrew! What do you think about brushless motors in OO locomotives? Could it be done you reckon? What sort of cost would you be dealing with? Many thanks for the kind words - I just have bullet pointed notes which I look at between takes - that's all really! :D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I've Googled micro brushless motors and it seems they are quit common, being uses in electric RC aircraft and drones. These ones though are very high reving at say 40k+ rpm. The control electronics look like they could fit on a PCB comparable to a DCC sound decoder, so probably doable in a 00 diesel loco. Just maybe a brushless motor itself is cheaper than a brush motor because there are less parts. The control circuit should be cheaper than a DCC sound decoder, where I'm guessing you are mainly paying for the effort in creating the sound file and its software engineering, not the electronic components which are quite cheap these days. Whether these motors have any distinct control and power advantage over a conventional DC brushed motor, to justify the additional space and cost, I don't know. More likely they could appear in 0-gauge. Never say never. Our aerospace motors had rotor position sensors so the number of revolutions could be controlled and stopped dead, so not to wrench the control surfaces or undercarriage doors off of the airframe. This needs more complex electronics than a basic motor to be used in a model train.
I've been curious about something for a little while now. Is there anyone out there who prefers their locomotive to have less pulling power? Having the gearing ratios set for realistic speeds is something that I think most, if not all enthusiasts like (not sure why manufacturers so frequently use such high speed gearing), but does that same concept apply to getting a realistic amount of hauling capability? Do some people prefer their locomotives to slip and struggle when the loads get too heavy? From a pure performance perspective, having more grip and power can only be a good thing, so that you can pull practically any load you want at any speed you want, hence why we see things like hidden weights and traction tires. That said, I can certainly see some appeal to a loss of traction, given that everything's dialed in correctly. A small locomotive slipping and struggling up a bank is the first thought that comes to mind. But it can potentially damage the loco and track as well. Sam's much more of an expert on models than I am, but I would imagine that wheelslip or excessive load on the motor can cause serious damage. Then you have the nuances of a lack of grip vs a lack of power. I certainly think just slipping would cause a lot less damage than overloading the motor, but there may be something I'm overlooking. It's not quite like on a real locomotive where wheelslip can cause the motion to catastrophically fail, but I could see it potentially damaging the valvegear. If anyone has any insights on this, I'd be very interested in discussing it.
great informative video sam, do appreciate it! was wondering if you could go into a bit more detail about how electricity goes from the pickups to the motor, i'm planning on doing an experiment and just want to know. cheers!
Thank you so much. So, when looking to buy locos I want 5 pole skew wound with a flywheel, wheel bearings and wiper pickups. I think I may be asking too much, but it would be nice.
Wiper pick ups? Split axels? What ever happened to solid metal wheels and axels with a non current dependent radio motor that looked for any electricity and a radio frequency that told it which way to go?! (Great video!)
Good vid Sam. That covers plenty. I could have done with this decades ago. Alas, I had to either learn the hard way or buy books! 😂 Intresting stuff about coreless motors too 👍
Very useful overview - I learned quite a few things from it! You may have mentioned it in other videos but what is the optimum angle between the conrods either side of a steam loco (and some diesel shunters)? I know it's not 180 degrees (as some might expect) but it seems to vary on some of my locos.
If I may add to your answer Sam, it's 90 degrees for a 2 cylinder loco but on a 3 cylinder loco the pistons are 120 degrees apart from each other. So one cylinder is between the frames and cannot be seen, but for the other two which are on the outside of the loco they are going to be 120 degrees apart one way (clockwise for example) and 240 degrees if measured in the other direction (anti-clockwise).
Interesting video, Sam. Could the axle parts that are plastic for insulation be replaced with something harder wearing like ceramic or stainless steel? Or would it be too expensive? Have their ever been any model trains with wheels that have milled edges similar to coins? I think that would probably improve traction.
That's a good point - not sure why they use plastic, but most of the modern ones have the gears moulded into the insulator too (as seen on the dapol 73 clips), so that puts ceramic etc out of the question! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
The old Tri-ang Locos had wheels with milled edges. They made a growling sound as they moved. :-) Not really effective for traction as the grooves soon fill up with dirt.
I still disagree that bearing pickup is inferior. The plastic axle if produced with good plastic (such as delrin) and not cheap nylon like Bachmann does should last a while. Wipers wear out much faster than bearings and also are a lot more flimsier. In my experience using non-conductive lubes on bearings have no noticeable effect on performance, simply due to the sheer amount of additional surface area of bearings to axles vs wipers to flanges, and the electrical contact has no issue passing through the almost atom-level thin amount of lubricant. Maybe its a US vs UK thing but bearing pickup is on 90% of all non-trainset level steam locomotives, including proto 2000, MTH, BLI, and all brass locos. Also, I still dont think you're giving coreless motors enough credit, but that's more personal experiences. Cooling is not an issue with all the diecast chassis frame around it, and a _SIMILAR SIZED_ coreless motor has much better torque, slow speed, smoothness, etc. over a can motor. Although I have seen how your coreless motor engines perform, so I do understand where you're coming from. They must be sourcing their motors from cheap places or something. They also appear to be using much smaller motors. I'll take a faulhaber or maxon coreless motor over a sagami or mashima can motor any day. I fully agree with you other points, especially the traction tires. Overall all nice video
That's fair enough Charles - there are definitely some advantages with the bearing pickups, not denying that! That's true too - the better quality coreless motors I've seen definitely do run very well! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
1:12 Are there any live diesel-electric powered trains (at least ones in 127mm gauge or smaller)? As per bearings, are there any models that employ tiny roller bearings? Very informative video. Be careful, if Oxford University ever introduce a course on model railways, they may beg you to be the professor.
Hiya Sam - Thank you - Learn 't some thing today - I often hear you say something about 3 or 5 'Poll Motors' but never was sure what you meant - but now I do 🙂 Also @ 8:10 I've notice that on the (not sure what it is called) little metal cover some 1 has written a number on each cover 1 to 4 & on the 5th a white strip - now interestingly enough last year I made a vid called "Mending my Late BR Class J15 1P2F No. 65464" & on my Loco I only had 4 of them covers & some 1 had also written numbers 1 to 4 on them aswell!!! Why would they do that??? 🤔🚂🚂🚂
Thanks a lot James, yeah there you go - I get asked a lot about the different motor types! Ahh interesting - I'm not sure about that mate! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I've done that myself on a couple of motors. The answer is easy: so as to count the number of cores: 1-5. European manufacturers put a different colour blob of paint on each one: Red, Black, Green, Blue & nothing. I've just taken that from a motor I've got right here!
That's true - I decided it wasn't too relevant for modern locos - but that certainly would have been interesting to talk about! :D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains not trying to be mean. But in alot of the newer ones they have tender pick ups for power or are motorized. But some of the older ones definitely do for example the ho scale Chattanooga from tyco. a lot of the tycos was tender driven.
Sam I need help I have a try-ang princess and it needs fixing when I first locked at it the soldiering came of so I got my dad to re soldier it and when we test it the power cuts out on my controller
Sounds like a short Rhys - you need to make sure the solder joint isn't touching the metal chassis of the loco... a bit of tape might be enough to fix the issue! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Ahh ringfield motors? They're the same as the 3 pole ones, the magnet just acts directly onto the armature, and it's in the shape of a ring! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Informative, fascinating, and VERY. VERY INTERESTING. Thank you Sam i enjoyed this video immensely. I noticed you tried very hard not to mention B******N .🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟🐖🚄🚅
jezy zie has been experimenting and converting models to use brushless motors, and even controlling them over WiFi. He has many videos on this, but here is one of the the brushless tests with synchronized sound: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-c5NcCjYS94w.html
Wow! Very impressive indeed - though you can see just how much circuitry is required! Easy to understand why British manufacturers don't do this! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Most of his circuitry seems to be for the WiFi control and the sound synchronization. For some reason he also likes to power the trains from LiPo battery instead from the track. No idea why. He seems to be having tons of fun with his project thou :-D Like with this synchronized smoke one that he did: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fBO0N6QPZBY.html
remember that expensive manufacturers do see fit to run continuous gear trains and just run coupling rods as an aesthetic, so I'm guessing that the Germans see an advantage to it
@@ivovanzon164 agreed. I also think that sometimes manufacturers will do this because they're a quality manufacturer and that's what quality manufacturers are expected to do. back in the day it was just assumed you had all the axles geared together. I think Lionel's 1906 standard gauge #6 was likely the first to have coupling rods used as coupling rods, (I'm not including clockwork or steam here) but for a multi axle loco range possibly the '38 dublo range?
Yes that's interesting - because most British models have a single driven axle, and yet the coupling rods are to scale these days! I have known it work well in some cases, so each to his own! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Well, you always can opt for the Roco weirdness if you can't decide between loco or tender drive... main drive in the tender (with traction tyres) and a cardan shaft to the cab for driving the rearmost axle on the locomotive
haha yeah... 99 pole might be more convincing! I've seen some AC motors with stupid numbers of poles, not sure about quite this many though! ;D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
That was excellent. A very clear, and concise 'idiot proof' guide to the inner workings of model trains. Loved your Triang engine collection, by the way. Some of them took me back! Nice one.
The old Hornby 110 DMU's use ringfield motors I think there is a video on RU-vid talking about this issue as I had the same issue with one of my old hornby diesel locomotives.
My 110 stuck like hell but didn't catch fire. Fun Fact :- 110's catching fire was true in real life! At least until they improved the insulation, but even then, Hammerton Street calling them the "Greasy Grills" suggests that there were a few more fires than the norm........:-)
Probably shorted quite badly. Make sure there is no carbon buildup between the slots on the commutator, wheels are clean, commutator is clean, fresh lubricant, etc. Normally you can immediately see what is wrong with it when you open it up - most likely a blackish sooty area if it had been catching fire, so you should get an idea of what it is pretty soon!
@@highbrookendmodelrailway Yeah I've had a look and it's just in really poor condition. If I can get the time and I can probably get it going again. Thanks for your suggestions 🙂
You can buy a new adhesion system from DCC concepts know as powerbase. Its designed to aid trains up slopes without wheel slip as it uses magnets under the train (or in the chassis) and metal strips under the track.
@@bentullett6068 you can but judging from Chadwick model railways experience its rubbish in comparison to the old Triang steel rail/magnadhesion system.
But Tri-ang Magnahesion relied on using their steel railed track, which tarnished a lot and went rusty. I'm not sure modern nickel-silver based rails are that magnetic, if at all, but looks much nicer and importantly, has superior electrical conductivity.
Amazing video! You did a terrific job explaining everything accurately in detail and this will hopefully help more people understand how these things work. Only one thought I had, you mentioned that some manufacturers will decide to drive every wheel on a steam locomotive with a gear instead of just using the drivers and while it is true that using this method causes more friction, a major advantage of it is that there is less risk of binding. The drivers are under a lot more stress without gears so it makes it a lot easier for one of the wheels to slip out of place and become un-quartered. I've noticed a lot of modern manufacturers seem to be going with all geared wheels, such as Rapido Trains Inc with their Royal Hudson models. This is still an absolutely terrific video, I just wanted to share my thoughts on that. All the best ~Harrison
Thanks very much mate, really glad you liked it! Yes that's a good point - with a single geared axle, quartering becomes much more crucial - thanks for sharing! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Ooh really?! I've always found these to be epic runners! Mine had a faulty circuit board though, so worth checking... in what was does yours not run well? Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Very well put together and well presented explanation Sam. Hopefully some should find it useful. You should try and cover more subjects even make a series of it.
Superb video, very well presented and explained. Thanks for showing pros and cons as well. Keep doing these engineering videos, every day is a school day :-)
Sam should take one of his Thomas The Tank Engines and power it with a model rocket motor. That ought to over come those friction and pick up problems. You know you want to do it Sam. Plus you'll gain experience in repairing plasterboard fixing the hole left behind where the Thomas jets through the wall of your house..
Great video Sam! I had a very basic knowledge of how models work but it's great to have it clearly broken down like this with all the different variations - I feel a lot more like I "understand" why certain ways work better than others now! Bravo, a very useful video indeed 👍
On the motors part you missed out ringfield motors that all of the old Hornby and Lima models used. I don't know if these are classed as a three pole motor though?
the poles are on the armature, so the rather sad ringfields on the Margate hornby and Lima are definitely 3 pole. on quality ringfields such as hornby dublo and Fleischmann still 3 pole but work as they were designed and intended to do
Hi Sam Thanks for the reply regarding the fact that Crampton locomotives would make avery interesting subject for modelling. Please take a look at the Pearson Locos of the Bristol and Exeter railway with their stunning 9ft !! driving wheels. This would surely challenge Hornby en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_and_Exeter_Railway_4-2-4T_locomotives
Bit late to this video, well worth watching- I'll admit to being coreless ignorant! I'm surprised you didn't mention axle articulation or sprung and compensated chassis as axle movement can make or break a models running ability on undulations or curves - Oxford's radial tank for example.
No problem mate - yeah they were pretty new to me until a few years ago! Yeah that's true, maybe that would have made a good section! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sam, I have an older triang model (1969) and it’s wheel flanges are too tall for modern railway track. Can you please talk about how this change happened and if there is anything that can be done to fix older models to run in modern tracks.
Thanks Jeff! Sure, they decided to make track more realistic, and so the larger flanged locos were no longer compatible! I did grind some of mine down, and it worked a treat... but it's a bit bodgy! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
It would still work exactly the same - electrical motors are not affected by vacuum - the power tools astronauts use to do work in space are electrically powered. Only difference being that you probably wouldn't be able to hear it running.
haha still would be pretty interesting though - and agreed with Ian, heat dissipation may be interesting to observe... though without air resistance, the load on the motor should be less! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
The Class 01s,Class 02s,Class 03s,Class 04s,Class 05s,Class 06s,Class 07s and Class 14s also have Coupling Rods,The Class 09s,Class 10s,Class 11s,Class 12s and the Class 13s are different versions of the Class 08
A very good video, indeed, Sam! This morning I cleaned the wheels on a 20 year old HO Kato NW-2 switcher/shunter using a small cloth saturated with alcohol between a powered section of track and each truck/bogie (sequentially, of course, so power would get to the motor!). I'd be interested to know how you clean your loco wheels and your track. Also, since much of your track is on a rug, do you have a problem picking up fuzzies? Cheers from Wisconsin.
Andrew Palm It can be quite challenging especially when the gears are not covered from bottom side. They tend to wind up the hairs, very common on carpet floor. You have to dissasemble the engine and with fine tweezers you can remove the hairs.
Thanks a lot for sharing Andrew! I did do a video on this some years ago - if you search for samstrains wheel cleaning, you should find my approach! :D Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam Once again an amazing video and I learnt some excellent tips. This was an extremely knowledgeable video, packed with information and delivered with notable enthusiasm and it is obvious that your personal information, research and content are extremely comprehensive. You are dealing with a whole range of capabilities regarding a person’s level and ability to process information and speaking as a qualified teacher, the delivery was very fast. You may need to slow your delivery as the modelling community has a very broad range of ages, attention and ability to process content. Weell Done. Can't wait for more. Thanks
Do not apologise as this was meant only as constructive criticism. A slight slowing of delivery will reap rewards. You have massive content for someone of you age, it is your enthusiasm that is pulling the community in.
Throughly enjoyed the video. Thumbs up. Just in passing, I remember that most of my old TRI-ang steamers had magnets installed in the chassis by the drive wheels. This would help the wheels adhere to the track. Worked quite well actually. Cheers!
Thank you for giving us the tuition we need to get decent trains and locomotives!! I had never thought about how model trains actually work!! I understood it as a boy because I learned it from using Scalextric cars and Hornby trains!!
Hi Percy Rebecca here. I have something to ask you! I’m going to be hitting 6 Years on RU-vid and I want to make a small short and I was wondering if you would like to voice the Narrator? It’s been a while since you’ve been in one of my shorts so let me know if you would like to. Also great video! Kind Regards Percy Rebecca 🥰🥰🥰
Forgive my unknowing, but will the track shock you when plugged in? I want to get into model railways but Just worried about getting one and my son touching the track and getting a shock..
@@SamsTrains amazing thank you! Been watching through your videos for the last couple of hours, some really good advice you've given! Really appreciate it and will definitely put it to use!
I personally use silicon grease for gears (though make sure it's not too thick). I use petroleum jelly for the conductive lubricant, but it's important it doesn't come into contact with plastic! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
a skewed 5 pole motor is kinda immune to cogging, it is the entire point of skewing the windings, and I love them also for the point about larger locos using coreless motors, most Kato HO scale models of US locos use 2 coreless motors in 2 bogies
Hi Sam, a very informative video. I have a question relating to the strain on a motor. I have seen layouts where there are inclines and also helixes. If the locomotive is pulling to much weight what damage can it do to the motor, is it possible to burn out the motor. Regards Greg
Thanks a lot Greg! Yes absolutely - some motors can be damaged by extended overloading. The greater the load, the more current the motor draws, and the more heat this produces. Badly/cheaply designed motors can definitely fail if they overheat! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
