this video, despite being about a completely different game, is possibly even more valuable than the usual dnd vids because we get a new perspective on how to play rpgs
Thanks for that emphasis on the "call and response" aspect of roleplaying games. This is such a critical fundamental that we all tend to forget about. It's eye-opening to have mentionned it like you did.
Me and my friends recently started an Apocalypse World game. It creates so much more roleplay than other ttrps I've played. Having to actually describe your actions and what your character is doing adds detail to characters that really lets you see their personality. Whereas in dnd most players just say "I attack." or "I investigate." roll their d20 and move along.
This is one of the things that drew me to Exalted, my first RPG love. It mechanically incentivises adding detail and narrative description to your actions by awarding bonus dice. Its a much more complicated system than this though, which makes it hard to use as a vehicle to get people into the hobby. The Apocalypse system looks much more accessible. I will always have a soft spot for crunch though.
A coworker and I had a presentation today. We were able to support each other’s points and feed off each other in discussion. It was a real Kelly and Monty moment. ❤
I did a game where we played A Quiet Year to create a magical city and the surrounding area, and then did a MotW game based in that city, where the monster had the ability to wipe memories. The players had an additional layer of having to solve the mystery of what they had been doing the past 24 hours in addition to finding out where and what the monster was. Lots of fun and I hope to run a sequel soon.
That’s a genius idea! My group recently did A Quiet Year session and it was a blast, and I can only imagine what it would have been like to follow that up with a game session with another system!
I love that idea, because it tickles the same part of my creative brain as the false hydra (yes, I still love false hydras, even if they're overdone; sue me :p). Having the double mystery of a quest itself, and trying to find out what you've technically already discovered but can't remember can make for some great stories. The version of this (via false hydra) that I've wanted to do is: 1. Have the campaign start with the classic "party meets up in a tavern" opener. 2. Campaign starts at level 3 or 5. 3. Players start investigating something innocuous, as would be normal for a new, 1st level party. 4. Quickly start finding evidence that something is massively wrong in this village/town. 5. Lots of evidence of missing people, and things devolve from there. The twist: Turns out, the tavern is just a place they stopped at for the night, in pursuit of a completely different quest. They've actually adventured together for quite a while, which is why they're level 3-5. It's just that the false hydra made them forget when they stopped for the night, so they wouldn't leave the village come morning (thus staying in its "larder"). So now they have to first solve the hydra problem, then figure out what their actual quest is, what they've already found out, and what they've missed in the time they were under the hydra's spell.
Missing/exceeding a DC by 5 or more is definitely a great way to incorporate the varying degrees of success or failure. I haven't gotten to play with the PBtA system, but after watching this video I definitely plan to utilize that mindset in future D&D games!
One of the biggest things about PbtA games to me is the distinction between moves that say "when you do this, roll the dice and get a result" versus moves that just say "you do this". In some cases, the game system tells you that it's simply not interesting or productive to leave certain actions up to chance, or that a character of a certain type is expected to be able to do it in any story in the game's genre. There's a particularly nice halfway point between "roll for this" and "you can do this" in moves like Dungeon Worlds "Bend Bars, Lift Gates". This move simply says "when you use force to destroy an obstacle", not providing any condition to fail to destroy it. The move then has you roll for the consequences of that - for example, maybe it made a lot of noise, and there's no way that door is going to be locked again unless you've got a locksmith with you. The bottom line there is that the fighter in your party is physically able to break open that door (if you aren't chained to the wall of a jail cell or anything... but then maybe they can break the manacles too), or clear the fallen rocks out of that passage (if you've got time before some enemies catch up to you). The game tells you that's gonna work, but then warns you that it's likely to cause some trouble if you don't roll well.
The game also gives a chance to give the players the chance to narrate what happens. Otherwise, if another character tries to attempt the same thing you'd actually be "waiting to see what happens" which is one of the triggers for a GM move. Thus the fate of that action falls on the GM.
Playing PbTA with a group of experienced DnD 5e players is a great way to get seasoned "gamers" back into the mindset of being newbie "players". Anytime I get newbies to play DnD 5e a lot of time is spent telling them "oh, you can't actually do that as you are too low level, don't have that skill etc. etc." and over time they internalise that message, stop being creative, and start "gaming" with character rather than "playing" a game.
Avatar Legends is such a good game! I've only played in a single one shot as of yet, but I've read over the rules multiple times just imagining all the cool ways you could make a character and use the moves and techniques! It was my first intro to PbtA games, but now I've picked up Apocalypse World, and I'm about 3/4 through my initial, in depth read through. So far really liking it. The threat map is a really useful tool for almost any RPG prep, and something I wish I've been using some form of all along.
I absolutely ADORE Masks: A New Generation. I think 5e is still one of my favorite ttrpgs but Masks sparked such intense, amazing world building and character dynamics like nothing I've seen before at my table.
I really want to get the Avatar RPG to the table…I’ve read Dungeon World multiple times and love the Fronts, degree of success, player driven narrative, etc. Also, Perilous Wilds is a PbtA supplement and it’s one of my favorite books ever for generating fantasy discoveries and dangers.
Oh man, I wasn't expecting a discussion of PbtA games, super happy to see this as content Apocalypse World, and it's progeny opened my eyes into new ways of gaming, when I needed it most. It radically changed the way I view character and world building. Tthere are so many idiosyncracies that can apply to RPGs of all forms
Knowing that Monty played a lot of Dungeon World explains a lot about how awesome his DMing for Drakkenheim has been. Glad to hear you guys talking about other games and why they aren't just D&D clones!
I'm definitely interested in seeing more content like this! I appreciate the different views and how to incorporate them into my 5e games because, as interested as I am in other systems, convincing my friends to learn is difficult, and means I need to pick up the DM mantle Which is fine, I like to DM from time to time, but I dont want to be the forever DM
I've long believed that Dungeon World is what most D&D players are looking for when they first hear about it. Shouts to y'all for sharing this wonderful system with a larger audience!
I really can't wait to try a Powered By the Apocalypse game. I recently picked up the Avatar Legends books so hopefully there's a gap in my group's schedule soon to run a one-shot. Thanks for continuing to cover non-DnD RPGs, its always good to see them getting love.
Great pitch for PbtA. I think telling your audience more about the idea of soft and hard moves from the GM as a way of putting pressure on the players would probably be good fodder for a follow-up.
For degrees of success in D&D (or other 5e-based games), just use the 'succeed by 0-4' and 'succeed by 5 or more' conventions. I lean heavily on it in Ruins of Symbaroum and the upcoming Ashen Frontiers. Gives you a well-scaled range of options like PbtA, and makes modifiers and advantage/disadvantage more important,even on skill checks.
My favorite DM sessions was playing a dungeon world derived system. The fight was so much fun, weird and dynamic and ever since I've had trouble playing dnd style combat.
I'm currently in the process of translating a bunch of rules that I originally made for a heavily homebrewed D&D setting into a "Powered by the Apocalypse" ruleset. So I would absolutely LOVE to see a guide video from you guys about how the Apocalypse rules work and maybe even a video about how to adapt those rules to your own campaign world. That would be faaaaantastic!
Great video, thanks. I love PbtA. After several years DMing 5E I was frustrated with various elements of it, and while googling for inspiration for some kind of overland travel system (something lacking from 5E) I found the “Perilous Wilds” expansion for Dungeon World, then found the original game and it became my favourite rpg. From there I tried out a bunch of other PbtA games. Everything you say about these games and how valuable they are for GMs of any system is spot on, but in particular this idea of setting out the stakes before you roll dice. So many unsatisfying moments in 5E disappear overnight when you start going “ok so if you succeed x will happen and if you fail y will happen”.
New subscriber here. Love the channel. I am a middle aged gamer who missed a few editions of D&D. 5e is fun and all but I recently got into a game of Dungeon World and I love the narrative heavy nature of the Apocalypse system. I am an old school theater nerd playing a Barbarian. I get extra experience for creating backstory and details about my culture. My improv background is definitely my most useful tool. It's really fun being involved in weaving the world along with the DM. We have played for a few months and the world in which we play has become much better defined.
I really enjoyed this video, I run a lot of apocalypse world games from monster of the week to Kult divinity lost. And I love them. They really let everyone at the table from players to GM play a game together
I love this video guys and thanks for covering PBTA. In a way Vincent and Meguey baker have changed the way ttrpgs are played forever. Pbta has brought countless hours to our table and we never looked back.
This was an amazing video! More content on PbtA please, and if you can, maybe some Savage Worlds content? These are the two non-D&D systems I'm the most excited about.
Thank you! You guys showed me monster of the week and I learned to love it so much. Especially for episodic one shots as a alternative to the main game.
I ran a one shot using this kind of system, set in the wild west. It was a good way to introduce a new player to the table. An unrelated one-shot to the main campaign to Guage strengths and weaknesses.
We had big fun taking a break from our regular P2 campaign with a session of Sentinel Comics that uses a similar but maybe even more robust “success at a cost system.” Success almost always came with either a minor or major “twist,” and it was up to the player, in consultation/negotiation with the gm, to determine what that twist would be. It was a core enough part of the mechanics that your character sheet even provided a list of prompts for those twists based on the sources of your superpowers. It was kinda amazing how quickly everybody’s twists built on each other and snowballed into pure madcap wackiness in the best possible way.
WOO! love you guys, I've been away for a while and trying to catch up on what I've missed. You've both inspired me to get a campaign back up and running and have helped me to improve my DMing.
Thank you for sharing this content. I watched a video today that was complaining about 5e being to time consuming to prep and I think this topic is part of the reason why.
Great video, loved this content. "Lessons learned from different RPG systems" is a great format. Would love to see more like this. Thanks, dudes! EDIT: Also, since you asked, my favorite systems have been "Savage Worlds" (ease of play and adaptability) and "Legend of the Five Rings 1st or 3rd ed." (incredible setting, deadly combat, lots of ways to solve problems that aren't combat)
Glad I found this specific video from you guys. I'm in the midst of a deep dive in the Forged in the Dark (a one degree removed from PbtA) system, specifically Scum & Villainy. Will be skinning it as a Star Wars game in the near future.
I’ve actually starting applying a percentile success feature in my 5e games. I started with magic item and ammo effects. Like Arrows only break if you miss by more than three based off target creature armor class. One of my players mentioned it was cool and added a level of intensity to combat knowing they couldn’t just retrieve all their arrows freely.
I'm currently the GM of a game for the first time ever. I wanted my friends to discover the SCP Foundation universe and chose the Monster of the week system because of the horror/mystery and rules lite vibe. This was definitly the best move (pun intended) I could have done ! The game is SO FUN and easy to grasp that we are now at our 6th session while it was supposed to be a 2 or 3 sessions adventure. All I had to do is search a map that represented a great containement facility, list all my favorites SCPs and think about how they would act to fit the "stats" of MotW's monsters and then throw them at my players and see how they react and reconfine them. Turn the lights off and add some creepy music and we got some heavy tension moments ! I'm having a solid blast, this is perfect for a group that prioritize story telling and in dept descriptions. 10/10 would GM again !
Glad to see you review PBtA games. Since discovering them some years ago these systems (and the off-shoot Forged In The Dark) games have been my preference. I've done what you are doing and recommended people who play other systems to at least read the rules and ideas and steal them for their other games. If you cover more, make sure you go over Fronts in more detail. I also liked that you mentioned the DM is a player too! I think that is another aspect of the "Play to find out what happens" of the system. This mental realignment can help forever DMs feel like they are a player again!
Anything that increases the fun is good. I've taught new D&D players by putting all the rules on myself and the role play choices on them. It's easy to get tactical with more experienced players. Thanks for the reminder to focus on the story!
We played a Dungeon World campaign for about 6 sessions two years ago between our last 5E campaigns. It helped all of us, GM and players to improve our play and make narrative more fun rather than just triggering mechanics.
Really great video, and I think it's quite valuable even for GMs and players who only want to play D&D, because you can still take those lessons and apply them. I've been playing MOTW for a while and have really been enjoying the system. I've found it really encourages roleplay and it's much easier for new players to understand. I'm also planning on running MASKS, and aside from the benefits of PBtA systems in general, the rules seem to really encourage and guide players to act out emotional responses to whatever's happening which is something that I think could then be applied to other RPGs and therefore allowing for deeper stories to be told.
5:36 - it possibly describes what we were doing wrong with our game. In our case, it was "monster always attacks you if you make mele - and only mele - attack and hit automatically". And overall "can you do it with moves available to you?" rather than "say what you want to do, and we will decide what move it is". Nobody of us really knew the system.
After my group switched to online gaming in 2020, I needed a better system to run online because all of my D&D prep was on physical graphs and in a notebook. So we jumped on Monster of The Week and I have never had more fun running a game than with MoTW. And, like you're suggesting, after we went back to D&D, I found that my GMing style changed drastically and I brought that MoTW flair to D&D. I truly believe that every DM should try GMing a PBTA game at some point because it is a freeing experience and opens up your mind to what can be and not what should be.
This is so clear and informative! Loved this video and would love to hear yall talk about more PbtA games. Would also love it if y'all could dive into Forged in Dark system
I was lucky enough to grow up playing with a group that understood that ttrpg adventures should be scenarios, not stories. Reading the GM section of Masks was like meeting someone who's totally in on the same wave length as me.
My first GM experience was running MotW for a group at my library! Avatar Legends is another great PbtA game, it takes the framework and adds in a bit more tactical combat, not hugely tactical, just a bit more structured than say Monster of the Week. It also does a great job encouraging people to roleplay and interact with mechanical bonuses to being involved in developing each other's characters throughout play. Really fun stuff, and a great way to encourage improv as well!
Thank you for this video! I've been curious about pbta since your video introducing other systems. I've only DMed 5e once and ready did not enjoy combat because it was too rulesey for me. This video is really inspiring me to give pbta AND DMing a(nother) try! ❤
Excellent! I've wanted to try PBA for a long time. Now I definitely will. FYI, I had very similar results in my D&D games after GMing Fate Core. Highly recommend it. Might be an idea for a future show.
This is a great video! I've played some Monster of the Week, and I'm definitely guilty of just saying "I want to Investigate a Mystery" instead of creatively coming up with something for the story my character would like to do, and letting the Keeper tell me what type of role to make. I can get caught up in the mechanics sometimes and forget how different these games are from D&D. Thanks for this 🤓
Amazing video. I have long moved to PbtA style games. I would just add that by definition, most PbtA games tend to involve the character background into the story, making the emerging narrative much more personal, engaging the players in new and surprising ways, while taking some load off the GM
I don't play D&D, and I do play a bunch of PbtA games, and this video was really helpful and enjoyable for me. I would love it if you guys did more videos on different approaches to games (or different games). Nothing against D&D, which I think is fine, but I love hearing you all's perspective on something else. Thanks!
I really wanted to like this system. So many neat sounding games use it…but man I couldn’t. Just never clicked with me from either side of the screen. But hearing you guys talk about still makes it sound cool.
I randomly stumbled upon a random topic online about “Powered by the Apocalypse” stating that D&D players could also play them too. I recently started getting into TTRPG, but am a Solo Player, social problems, and mostly works evenings and nights (my job). Having yet to try out one of these, mainly the one that caught my attention being Apocalypse World (also saw the 2nd edition).
PbtA games are really great for beginner DMs, too. Not only are they very rules-lite, they're great for teaching you some really useful skills for running games in any system.
17:23 The MC can't ask for a dice roll unless the character triggers a move via their actions in the fiction. If anything, the move where you have to think the most about the "why" is Do Something Under Fire (other games may call it Act Under Pressure or Face Danger). With those moves, you have to think about what the danger is that the character is trying to avoid; if there's no danger and if it's possible for them to do the thing, they just do it.
Great video! I love MotW, and DM'ed several adventures with my players, who love the game. I'll be running an Avatar TLA game soon. I would watch any PbtA videos or live plays that you guys make.
Just reading the basics of PBTA. It inspired me to work out a rulebook about duelists in Venice(other cultures tbd) at a grand party, where you need to Balance a sharp blade and wit to be the best in the city.
This is a fantastic video! Other than calling PbtA a "2d6 system" (technically incorrect), I agree with everything you say. But I am nitpicking here. It does not take away from the great advice you give. Awesome job!
Id love a how to play video, maybe one for players and one for DM's if i cold send player a 5-10 min youtube link to they might be more open trying a new system. I think most DMs want to try new rules but in my experience its getting the players onboard that is hard...Id also love the DM videos that more in-depth hear things explained and seeing examples is very helpful in boosting confidence and I tend to learn more form listening than reading... GRATE STUFF.
I'd like to know more. It puts me in mind of Numenera and the Cypher system which is rules light, admin light and character focused. I had the same revelations playing Numenera and the much reduced cognitive load on the DM allows much more creativity.
Love that you're covering other systems! Question: in D&D the combats can get long. Wouldn't the variable success mechanic increase that due to the GM having to come up with the in-game results of a partial success/fail multiple times per turn? I can see a long battle where the DM would have to invent 10+ "partial" effects?
I wouldn’t use the varied success for combat as much as I would apply it to skill challenges. Things like investigations, or social encounters, seeking information or other common D&D moments. In combat I would use this when the player wants to do something interesting and unique, like throw an enemy out the window, or knock down a support beam or anything of that nature. In those instances when a player asks “can I do this cool thing” instead of give me a DC 15 athletics check, you can say “roll athletics” and if they roll in the middle it can be a lot of fun to say “so yes, you can do the thing… but”
Powered by the Apocalypse sounds like another system I’ve been using for solo-play called Freeform Universal RPG. It has a similar degree of failure/success system. It uses odd/even roll on d6 instead but at its core they sound similar.
I'm curious if you guys have played any Fate Core. It's the game that had a similar effect on me, such that I now run every RPG in a somewhat "Fatey" fashion. I don't roll dice when running Fate, either (the bell curve of its mechanics makes that very easy). And I swear at least half of all Fate sessions is that bargaining you mention in this video. The crucial difference is Fate's reliance on Aspects, IMHO. I'd be interested in hearing about any experiences you've had with that system, and encourage you to try it out if you haven't.
A lot of what is being said in this video is things I learned from OWoD and Exalted 1st and 2nd edition. My players were all about being descriptive with everything they did, especially combat making for more engaging than them just saying "I attack with my sword"
"If what you love most is tactical combat, you might hate PbtA." THANK YOU!!! I played PbtA and it is totally not for me. I play for the crunchy stats and character building. I want roleplaying and improv at a minimum honestly. I get so tired of people praising PbtA and telling everyone to play it when it is totally not designed for me. I do find it weird that "degrees of success" is such a big praise of it when other TTRPGs (Patrhfinder 2E of course) and even previous editions of D&D have also had it.
I would love Love LOVE if you could do a series on PbtA - especially MotW. I love running these games but fall into a bit of a trap between the narrative taking over and forgetting to call for a move. Of course, whilst this doesn't impact the story or flow, it limits the Hunter's ability to level up and can negate the playbook completely! I would love advice on achieving a balance. And suggestions on what those partial successes could look like.
