What's a Fiddle Block for 4X4s? 

Yep!

We shall fiddle together!

you needed this for your sideway winching the Bundera Video :)

Our pleasure!

Thanks always keen to learn from other industries!

@@L2SFBC have just seen that Red Winch makes a FM-50 with 20mm soft shackles, now were talking some serious 10t truck recovery with only 2t of force from a support vehicle and 100m of 10mm Dyneema (all working within a 5:1 safety factor). I'm impressed 💪

Yep I am hoping to test that

You are welcome!

What would you use one for?

Had a few situations with heavy vehicles being bogged and it would of been faster recovery with multi sheave snatch blocks. Would of saved a few winches as well. We use multi sheaves at work in various rigging applications fairly often, so I'm very familiar with the arrangements. But I do agree that we would see an increase in risk to damage to vehicles and injuries from overloading.

Good to know, some are saying there's never any need. I think they're a niche product, but an important niche. Would like to know more about your experience with multi-sheaves.

Sure we can talk at Werribee 4wd club some time

Agreed!

Thanks Jason, love to hear from and learn from people in different countries!

Having a winch on a Jeep is mandatory because they always get stuck or break something in the driveline :)

Will check it out!

@@L2SFBC The bike one shares more in common with rock climbing/rescue gear. You can get fiddle blocks for sail boats in the 1000kg/2000lb safe working load range.

Agreed, so I recommend using a winch extension rope for this.

@@L2SFBC Yes. And that's easier to do with synthetic line as you've noted, rather than cable which isn't suitable for this block.

Most winches are rated with the least amount of line on the drum anyway.

Thanks please share 👍

Recreational people use synthetic because it is lighter and safer. Less durable isn't a problem for infrequent use not time constrained. Commercial people may use wire for durability.

I hate to say it, but synthetic is strong.

Synthetic rope is stronger, lighter and safer than steel. It isn't as robust if cared for. That's why most recreational users run Synthetic.

Totally see your point of view Bob, and I'm inclined to agree. Two blocks gives a 4:1 pull if rigged right.

Hi Chris, excellent questions thank you, don't have all the answers as yet, but: - 14mm max diameter for the rope which is around 20,000kg breaking load (not WLL) - yes re lots of line, I'd recommend 50 to 70m (say 150 to 200ft) of rope. Not a bad idea to keep the rope permanently rigged with the two blocks, saves a bit of time. - don't know about the max shackle diameter I'll post when I know more, have asked the questions.

@@L2SFBC Thanks Robert. 14mm is really close to 9/16" and that typically has a spliced Minimum Tensile Strength (MTS) of 37,900 lbs. (Plasma 12 strand) which is about 17,190 kgs. So, I reckon that certainly that should be more than enough for a 15 - 20 k lbs. winch. Question becomes that with 14 mm rope, your soft shackle needs to have a MTS of around 189,500 lbs., (five times) which would be about 3/4" diameter double leg soft shackle. So the hole in the fiddle block set for the soft shackle would need to have an ID of around 40 mm Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks again.

Hi Chris - answer for you: "The bottom ring will comfortably accommodate a 9mm soft shackle, ours have a MBS of 100kn, the rope will only see 1/4 or 1/5 of the load so even with the FM-24 at 240kn the 9mm soft shackle exceeds the MBS of the FM-24, there is a school of thought that if the user wanted to introduce a fuseable link this is the best place to do it but I need to do more research on a suitable smaller soft shackle for that. The top ring accommodates a 14mm soft shackles with ease. For the FM-12 I recommend out 10mm soft shackles at 160kn MBS For the FM-24 I would recommend our 14mm soft shackle with 360kn MBS. "

@@L2SFBC Thanks so much Robert, most appreciated! 9mm - 10 mm soft shackle is close to our 3/8" (9.5mm) soft shackle that has an MTS of 42,000 lbs. Yours are at 100kN, which is about 22,400 lbs. about half the capacity of ours of the same diameter line. The FM 24, if I understand it correctly, is a 24 metric ton unit so about 53,000 lbs. rated capacity. The winch line load would be about 1/5 of that so around 10,600 lbs., which our 5/16" line with an MTS of 11,600 lbs would handle. Assuming you can use the 10mm soft shackle at MTS of 36,000 lbs. on the bottom anchor, then the bottom anchor is limited to 36,000 lbs with the recommended 10mm soft shackle. This would be the fuseable link you referred to. If I have if correct, the 10mm soft shackle in the bottom ring will see 4 times (42,400 lbs.) the winch line load while the 14mm top ring soft shackle (about 81,000 lbs. capacity) will see 5 times the winch line load, so the top soft shackle is certainly capable of handling the fiddle block FM24 rated capacity of 53,000 lbs. Would I be correct is concluding that the bottom soft shackle would part (fail) at about 85% of the fiddle block rated capacity? If this is the case then the fiddle block capacity should be rated by its weakest connection point, which is the bottom soft shackle. Now if our 3/8" soft shackle (42,000 lbs. MTS) was used instead of your 10mm soft shackle, then it would meet the rated load capacity of the fiddle block without a fuseable link. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Hi Chris hopefully this answers the queries - l2sfbc.com/more-on-the-4x4-fiddle-blocks-forces-and-minimum-rope-lengths/

Hi, that's the right website. The product is super new, so not yet. I will post back here when I know.

Pricing is out - 495UKP, say $1000AUD.

Thats like deiving around on rock caveman wheels.

My rates are reasonable and depend on the box in question and its packaging.

no

Check Red Winches on FB and the web, they have Aussie outlets too. Yes, the NPS300 is exactly the sort of truck I was thinking of this product.

Depends where you are but www.red-winches.com

👍

It gives a mechanical advantage so not taxing your winch motor so much, you can run longer between rest.

I think if you used it once it would be worth having.

This is ancient technology. Anyone who wants to move any super massive objects and maintain control without the expense of giant cranes, or heavy machinery. A simple wood beam and column frame with enough of these and you can move anything. Want to cut down a tree and move it around for easy cutting? Maybe there's a heavy object you need to move in the garage? Maybe you got a water tank to lift up to a tower at the cottage only accessible by boat? Want to lift some gear up a mountain? How about the boulder in the way of the swimming pool? A tonne of bricks? Sore back?

Some of us work in jobs where we us dirt roads daily and we don’t have cell phone coverage? Why are you watching this or commenting. Isn’t there a video about finding a park spot at the mall you should be watching?

Agreed good post!

And if you really like messing around in the mud do this with a high lift jack.

@@maxgood42 got one of those as well, never used it with pulleys and wire rope but chain and hooks is fun, the high lift is another underrated bit of kit and can do far more than just lift your vehicle, as always take care out there.

@@CrusaderSports250 Yes. so as Robert said there would be time and a place to have $1000 worth of pully system unless you are like bugs bunny trying to do the minute waltz in 30 seconds (High lift at 5:1) or adding 1 more pully in the Spanish Burton style it would become 9 or 10 to 1 and you could just pull it out by hand. XD

@@maxgood42 not sure of the point your making, never been a fan of speed recovery as that's where accidents and/or damage are most likely to happen, my winch drives from the back of the gearbox, giving me a four speed in with power out as well, all speeds variable with the throttle, first or second gear being used with moderate revs and top gear for cable retrieval, using pulleys slows all this down even further. As I stated in my original post I see no benefit in something costing more for less flexibility, the fiddle block is in effect just two pulleys in one unit, two separate pulleys can be used to totally redirect the line pull to get round obstacles and give a straight pull and retrieve for both vehicles making them more useful.

Not entirely sure what you mean, but yes you can pull in 25m of line at a time, but at say 5:1 that's only 5m pulled, less allowing for slack. Can you elaborate please?

@@L2SFBC Yeah, I really wish I could draw a diagram like you do so well. Imagine pulling 25m of logging chain with a hi-lift jack. It's only a meter long, so every time you reach the end, you release tension, unhook, take up slack, rehook, and pull in another meter, and repeat the process to the end. That doesn't work with ropes. Obviously we don't knot them together. Is there a clamping or gripping device to temporarily connect your 25m winch rope to the working end of your 75m tackle rope? We need some way to pull in much more rope than will fit on the winch, right?

OK think I see. Yes there is, the X-Lock - see my video on Pulley Efficency to see how I use it to shorten ropes. However in this case it'd be pull it all in, then re-rig and pull out...no real way around that if your drum can only store say 30m or rope and that's it.

alpine butterfly loop will work.

Not really

Don't forget the extra markup! £495!

Yes, a block and tackle twists up very easy. Twist causes friction. Fiddle blocks stay on the same plane with each other, not twisting up.

No, just use a single through for a directional pull. These dont twist up like a block and tackle does. Hook will pass through. The sides have internal guides to keep rope or cable on pulley. This is the cats meow, son, get you one. I will be looking for the video.

Yep !

Two snatch blocks per vinch is overkill alone!

Not always...

@@magnus5356 2 blocks is the minimum required to to anything other than a single-line redirect or a double-line straight pull. It's the responsible number, imho; especially if you're alone. My current recovery bag kit is 3 30,000lb blocks, 6 3/4" d-rings, 4 soft shackles, 3 tree straps, a 20ft snatch strap, a 20ft tow strap (can double as a anchor/tree strap), a 30ft recovery rope, a choke chain for moving things like fallen trees (can also be used as a sand anchor), 2 pair of heavy leather gloves and a headlamp. I carry other recovery gear in addition, but that's what's in the bag.

@@PNWJEEPER01 how large are your bag??

Yes you can do that

Something like this you would leave rigged with it's own synthetic winch cable. You then simply attach it to the vehicle and the winch system with conventional hooks or soft shackles.

Agreed!

Feed rope through

@@L2SFBC show us,you did it interractive,but how it looks like in reality?

@@otm646 he said something different.....that the winch rope you have to feed through.....impossible as long as it has the hook on.Agree??? His video is not plausible

Yes probably but depends on badly it is stuck

I was thinking X-Bull ....haha but yeah probably

Its not harder on anything but you.

Yes!

No, you need lengths of extension rope to reach from the far block to the anchor, which may be the same or slightly larger than the winch rope. Once you move up from Jeeps and Toyota sizes, you begin to have more room for rigging and less for a proportionally larger winch.

Agreed!

It operates flatter too.

Yes, someone managed to reinvent something that they perfected on sailing ships?

Ever had an old time block and tackle twist up on you? Fiddle blocks stay flat with each other.

Stupidly expensive as well .....£100 materials ....£400 marketing .

Basically yes

@@L2SFBC Awesome! Thanks for clarifying. I saw the other fellows comment about the B&T wrapping up on itself and this seems like it would help mitigate that happening.

Depends how it's rigged, either 4 or 5.

@@L2SFBC Ok, I think I get it. The winch is essentially another pulley and the extra line is being taken up on the spool. The 6th line is not seen, but is there, thus yielding a 5:1 MA. advantage.

Correct. Depends which way it is rigged too. Can be used at lower MA.

Yes you'd need a pair. With only 1 you may as well have a snatch block.

just get 2 double sheave pulleys with hooks

Yes you need 5x the line (plus a little bit more) to go x of distance, so say 55m to travel 10m. I will be conducting a full field test soon as I can. Correct, static lines aren't important for this.

@@L2SFBC I guess I just got confused with the Spanish burton setup then? The winch distance is tiny but do you just transfer 3/5ths of the length needed to the moving line?

With Spanish Burton you have a 4:1 advantage. The first line is 2:1, and the second is also 2:1 so total 4:1. You need to pull in 4m of line to move 1m.

Video will be coming when I get a set, in the meantime -> l2sfbc.com/more-on-the-4x4-fiddle-blocks-forces-and-minimum-rope-lengths/

@@L2SFBC Nice diagram

See my current video on exactly this and the 60-50-40 guide for 2:1, 3:1 and 4:1 SB rigs. Actual data!

They twist up.

@Random look at the ratings of your tow straps or extension straps , nothing is rated safe if you multiply the winch 5 times.

Yes only metal shackles are likely to be 5x MBS over WLL.

Agreed

Yes or a Spanish Burton

Yes, but it wont twist up like those old style block and tackle.

And a lot lighter too.

Yes!

Fiddle blocks dont twist up like block and tackle. That is worth a lot of money.

No I'd just use the SB

Soon as I get one on test, and no date for that set...was agreed I could do it so hope that comes off soon.

@@L2SFBC amazing.

You're absolutely correct OldSawyer. The pulleys can be stacked on the same shaft, and this has been done, in a centuries-old technology called "Tackle blocks," or sometimes called by the more academic and prolix, "Block and Tackle." According to Wikipedia, invented by Archimedes, so it's only two-thousand-plus-year-old technology. Therefore it would seem that a "Fiddle Block," is just a means to take an earlier, simpler, and more elegantly executed idea, and complicate it just a little, so as to enable posing as the inventor of it, and collect some patent royalties in the process.

Yeah, but the friction of the block and tackle twisting up is more than the extra pulley drag on the fiddle.

Good Lord @@ridgerunner106 we need a LAUGH EMOJI for That BS. . . I've been using Block & Tackles for well over 50 years, as did my Father and Grandfather Before Me, and this is The FIRST I ever heard of one "Twisting Up" . . . If something bizarre like that ever happened to you it's because you weren't using it right. . . LOL . . . If I had to guess, I would say you're part of the Marketing Team trying to Peddle This Snake-Oil Contraption by making the usual False Claims

@@oldSawyer No, my dad pulls out my great grandads block and tackle every time we skin a large animal. Which, one day I skinned eleven, so it has been pretty often in my 51 years. Fiddle blocks will stay on the same flat plane in relation to each other. I have a big block snd tackle just because I came across all the parts to make one. I guess you can hang a block and tackle on the ceiling and lift some sort of load. Then set up a fiddle block and lift a load. Then get back to me with the results.

@@oldSawyer You remind me of when my dad was a kid and the power company was putting in the first electricity in the area. Grandaddy couldnt see any use for it. They had oil lamps for light, a wind up alarm clock, a battery radio that would last all year, a bucket and rope at the well. Who would need such a thing as electricity? Well, once they got it,. light with a flick of a switch, plug in clocks, radio and a TV, a well pump...a compressor at the barn yo fix his own tires, lights at the barn. Yep, he made sure that electric bill was paid on time.

Agreed best for the big trucks

Hah...we don't gather croc eggs and we hate mud! No need for us to carry guns either, nothing we need to kill when we're in the outback 👍

That's hiliarous!!!!!

Depends how it is rigged

The fly in the ointment is that a winch near stall is drawing an enormous amount of current from the battery. With pulleys, the winch motor can spin longer at a lower power level and sustain the effort.

"Mechanical advantage only exists when there is at least one travelling pulley." l2sfbc.com/you-can-get-mechanical-advantage-from-a-snatch-block-that-doesnt-move/

While I now agree there is MA of 2:1 in your illustration, your explanation of its source is amiss. The MA doesn’t come from the snatch block which is no more than a redirecting pulley. It comes from the winch itself which is in effect the travelling pulley required. It’s a travelling pulley (because it’s the vehicle to which it’s attached that moves) which redirects the line to itself where it’s anchored.

I agree with your comment and that's a good way to put it...but the fact is, the pulley doesn't travel and there is MA. It's such a common misconception I wrote the blog post. Every month or so someone states it.

@@L2SFBC​​⁠The winch (the “pulley”) does indeed travel. It’s attached to the load (vehicle) which travels. The snatch block is an anchored pulley. If it weren’t for the MA of the winch and it acting as a power source, the snatch block couldn’t do anything useful. Its purpose is to redirect the forces from the winch back to the vehicle so that the moving vehicle itself can generate additional MA. BTW The opposite situation works too. If the vehicle was hauling a log with a snatch block attached, the winch does not provide MA. In this case it’s the snatch block because it’s attached to the moving load (log).

Yes

And repriced.

And not twisted up like block and tackle do.

have another look

@@tattooedmillionair so this one is not correct ? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6GuldysCVjI.html .

@@tonyroba I believed a straight pull would be 100% and by using 1 or more pullies it reduces the effort, but as it has been clarified, I was wrong (thank you) and 1 pully only redirects, you need 2 or more for weight reduction. Thanks again!

That's not right. One pulley can give you MA of 2 to 1 or 1 to 1 depending how you rig it.

@@L2SFBC My thoughts were along with what you said... it is too early for me to sort this out in detail :-) need more coffee!

Depends how it is rigged 4 or 5 or even less

What's the key to success, driving offroad and never been stuck? You're the only one I know who has never been stuck, and I'd like to know the secret please.

I never once got stuck once in my SSV redline… but I’ve been stuck a million times in a twin locked, crawler ratio, sway bar disconnecting Rubicon. The same reason I would on occasion end up in a gravel trap on a circuit… It’s simple… if you’re not having crack… you won’t have any story’s to tell.