BC hard counter them. BUT BUT BUT! Protoss can build an arbiter. Terrans can counter either of those with science vessel or ghosts but that's just beyond their IQ.
excellent casting as always. anyway, when will somebody tell Flash to do what Arty did to solve brood war, which is to play Battle Asses for 20 hours straight?
he's playing under a barcode and didn't want to announce he was back initially - I don't think he WANTED people scrutinizing his games to this level, he just wants to derust and experiment in peace. I don't blame him for trying to do what worked for him in the old days. I think he is probably trying to minmax/limit test and see how much he has to change to be able to fit the new meta. Wish to see more TvZ out of him as well.
@@theSato i get that but being that I'm a terran player also, i understand what he is thinking and what he is trying to do, i tried literally everything to make that style work and it just doesn't work anymore
@samc9133 the reason is that pro-gamers are fucking dumb, mindless drones and just do the same tried and true things over and over without properly experimenting. Once a single one of them starts using ghosts and finds a breakthrough strategy, everyone else will just blindly follow as they always do. Royal almost made it happen but have up: shouldn't have, he was in the right path. This already happened with valks and queens, and it will happen with ghosts eventually.
@johnnyboy3563 just look at Jaedong play man, the skill required to play zvp like he does is insane , look at him FPVod it's actually crazy how good he is. Now tell me that zerg doesn't require more skill than toss.
You should also do Flash vs. Motive, I think in one of their games Motive even told Flash when and how to take a third expansion (as in, after going five factoroes and then either punishing Protoss for greed or expanding if Protoss isn't greedy)
When Blizzard was designing SC they probably thought that, in theory, Battlecruisers, Lockdown and all the Terran anti-air tech would allow them to deal with Carriers. In practice, we know how that turned out.
@@Winnetou17 I think so, too. Usually when you go 3 or 4 bases as T you have an excess of gas that you cant spend and adding a couple of ghosts spread around your expansions to be ready for use similarly to Vessels vs Arbs wont tax your APM or multitasking as much as most people think and managing to lockdown even 1 carrier is a huge win for the T, not to mention putting fear into the Protoss' heart.
@@Figgy20000 What?? You need 1 Goliath to kill a locked down Carrier... for half of the duration of the spell. Ghosts are not used to kill Carriers, but to disable them.
You spoke about pros not reacting / thinking about what they see. I read a long time ago that StarCraft pros were having their brain scanned while playing and the “instinct” part of the brain lit up when they see tech changes etc so exactly it’s not them even thinking about it - they just do it ahaha awesome
When the ASL qualifications start and do you think flash has a chance to get in final 24 based on speed you see him learning new meta. Also keep up the good streams Arti and I will be never sick of flash replays
Valkyrie to splash observers and wraith to dive on the carriers (watching for high templars) while another wraith scouts for the next incoming observer. To beat carriers you have to be in a great economic position which is only usually achieved by a successful one base(has to kill natural expo). 1 rax pumping rines while getting mines with a machine shop and tank from that factory while getting vulture from 2nd factory. When you attack you have to watch for him to hide his army and try to flank you....this is his only chance to hold so to counter this you have to keep scouting like crazy with vulture and scvs because finding that army and isolating it before it can group with his reinforcement will give you a great advantage. You'll have to send all your units as soon as mines are almost ready and bring scvs too....don't let the scvs or vultures take even a single shot from the dragons without having most of your ranged units attacking at least one volley.
Really been hard for me to tell from these series if Flash is still just "catching up on the meta" or if Bisu and JD are just in really good shape right now. Tbh I'm hoping for the latter as Flash/Bisu/JD are my 3 favorite players at their respective races.
As soon as you said the next day my head went to and the very next day he was home sweet home and then I realized your mind went there too I'm as weird as you are, nice
Ghosts with Lockdown take four minutes to create from the moment you finish your science facility. You will never ever in a million years be able to get ghosts rolling before carriers kill you, because for some asinine reason neither cloak nor lockdown are automatic spells and they take a combined 3 minutes to research (plus it takes like a full minute for Ghosts to gain Lockdown energy).
@@Armisael4321 I don't think that cloak is needed (specially when the carriers are surrounded by like 10 observers). And Ghosts can be recruited during Lockdown research to save energy. It really does not take that much time to make them (compared to Carriers production time). The issue with Ghost is that their lockdown range is not that big, their gas cost, their survivability and that they require a lot of micro for execution. But I still think that Terran players just haven't given them enough of a chance. With the combination of Scans to find carriers and Defense Matrix from Science Vessels, it should be completely possible to little by little eliminate the carriers. Lockdown lasts an eternity once it lands.
@@lavq7000 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + ghost academy + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
That was a good match, but, bummer to see how many times Flash had chances to lay fire into the carriers, but he didn't target his Goliaths. Lots of times the gols were basically in range and they were shooting interceptors. Somebody get this man some adderall so he can achieve his potential again lol
its difficult as a zerg getting ready for carriers. as we have no scan. they just pop out of nowhere 8 of them, and head for the main where the tech iis. and the whole game becomes a freakshow in the protoss's favor. if you see them coming its winnable, but if their secretly made , almost impossible to stop.
The answer to how you beat carriers, is don't lose to DT. Just because you see a unit with your eyes, doesn't mean it was th reason you lost. This must also be the reason people think banelings are good. No, you lost not to banes but by getting behind by 2 mining bases.
instead of switching to mass goliaths, isn't it be better to have a mix of 1:3 goliaths/marines (or even higher) to kills interceptors/carriers? from what i remember back then, goliaths have never been effective against carriers (unless you can target them directly ofc) since their missiles may take time to hit interceptors while marines effectively hit them the second they shoot. also doesn't it takes time for carriers to acquire a new target? so giving them more targets to deal with reduce their average "dps" quite a bit. again i may be in the wrong since i haven't played for literally decades.
I seriously want to see a pro terran player show us mere mortals how to deal with carriers. My go to solution had always been ghost lockdown + goliath spam and i was hoping to see that this match, but alas. My micro sux tho, so getting a squad of ghosts at full upgrade and energy to double lockdown carriers was pretty impossible for me. The best i could do out of 12 was probably lockdown like 4, maybe 6 if i got lucky
Still don't understand why we don't see terrans go wraiths against carriers. Moving shot on the wraiths can largely invalidate psi storm, the wraiths are faster than the carriers by a significant margin and trade cost-favorably against them too.
@@bigmikeobama5314 too expensive, too long setup (mass barracks + covert ops + lockdown and optic implants research, waiting for energy), not mobile and die easily to any protoss ground units. Wraiths are better for hunting carriers.
Generally timing attack. Need to scout it earlier. It's tough if you're already behind, which Flash was, but if he scanned the carriers when he was around 165 supply he could have pushed sooner. It may not have worked in this exact game because Flash was behind but many many examples of him pushing and winning vs building carriers in this matchup. They don't even do that much when you only have three of them out.
I'd love to see a different strategy for late game carriers from Terran for once. Terrans need to keep an additional threat out on the field alongside their goliaths to punish the carriers. Spamming goliath is cool and all, but Terrans need to think about their trump card against carriers (killing them) if they decide to levitate over terrain Terran can't access very well. If we're not talking about money restraints then there could be some options like a small group of wraiths (countered by obs), a couple long range BCs using yamato (stasis countered), ghost lockdown (lack of range), EMP from science vessel (seen here by flash). Idc if pro players think that it's inefficient to deploy some of these units for counters. There just needs to be a big threat put into the goliath spam in case protoss does decide to commit and you catch them off guard. You can see DTs from protoss put into battle when carriers are attacking, why can't Terran do something similar?
The reason it's easy for protoss to throw DT's into the mix is because they already have a bunch of gates and is same tech as high temps. For terran to get ghosts would be a bunch of extra tech and research, BC's also require extra tech and more starport's which is harder to do in practical sense because factories take up so much space, there's no room for much else.
@@Wysaw Yeah, I'm aware of the tech tree differences. I was trying to draw a parallel for unit mixture to throw the opponent off. Part of me is tired of seeing terrans lose to carrier late game, and would love to see some counter play that isn't goliath spam with the occasional emp.
@@SuPeRbOoMfAn It just doesn't work in reality though doing that. It's like Arty say's, best counter to mass carriers is seeing it coming and stopping it getting that far. Makes sense in my mind, if you let your opponent mass a deadly unit up then you lose.
Ghosts pwns carriers. Might as well do the 50/50 addon on the science facility and research lockdown real quick. You dont even need the cloak. Once you lockdown a carrier, no interceptors can go out and the range is beast.
Yes ghosts can make kuku for carriers, but ghosts are very situational, not everywhen, not anytime, and very often invisiblemen cooperate with carriers. And the most important for ghosts you need barracks, but your barrack fly away as a spotter and you have 7 factorys.
Does it thought? Pros don't seem to think they are good. Light toyed with them at some point I think (maybe 2 years ago) and backed off. Ghosts are too slow to come out to be useful. The game only lasted 9 minutes from the carrier reveal. Ghosts are expensive! One ghost won't help you, you probably need 6. At this point of the game, terran might not even have a barrack, clearly they don't have 2. So you'll make ghost one at a time, ghost take 30 seconds to come out each, that's 3 minutes to make your ghost (or you need to add barracks, which also take time and minerals). cover ops takes 30 seconds to build. It will take 1 minute for your ghost to have enough energy to cast lockdown. (the time to research lockdown is overlaped with ghost production.) So it takes 5 minutes to get the ghost out. In term of cost, 50 gas for covert ops, 6 ghosts is 450 gas, plus lockdown that's 200 gas. That's 700 gas, or 14 goliath worth of gas. Note that in that time, flash does not have extra gas. He is pretty much under 200 gas all the time. With 14 fewer goliath, flash would get steamrolled here. But ok, maybe you do build them and somehow do not die. And you somehow still have some goliath to chase the carriers. You still need to effectively be able to use the ghosts, who are even more squeeshy than wraith. They die instantly to storm, they die from DTs which go get mixed in with carriers. And they aren't cloaked, they will be targetted by the carriers. When you play like a potato like me, then yes ghost look real strong. At high level, I don't think they are particularly good.
@@eriks2962 As with most things, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Ghosts are definitely not the "no duh why dont they just use lockdown" answer that many low-to-mid tier players think they are, but at the same time, they have potential. You don't even need six ghosts -- one or two would be enough to pick off a carrier periodically (which adds up over time) and make the Protoss want to start building observers or playing more cautiously with the carriers. A main thing is you'd have to stop throwing away your barracks as a spotter which comes with its own logistics to consider.
LOL you guys are insane.... now, suddenly "ghosts are slow to produce" (wtf...), not having a barracks is a huge detrimental factor (...what...). What a bunch of pathetic excuses. All you need is for a couple pros to start using them seriously and you'll be instantly convinced. Same thing already happened with queens.
Honest question: wouldn't lockdown be good vs carriers? Doesn't feel like that much of an investment and feels like a near certain kill, if golliaths are in position, plus it takes a carriers' interceptors out of the fight for the duration.
I've thought the same, almost treating it like queens in TvZ. But unfortunately it's way too tech dependent and introduces bio into mech builds. I could see some bold gamer try it but from what we've seen before it sucks.
By the time he knew carriers were a problem . No way he had time to upgrade and build ghosts. Lockdown is so hard to pull off. You would need like 20 ghosts to pull that off I would guess. Cloak and range
I really wonder if cloaked wraiths and Goliath isn't ab sawer. Obviously getting observers are the issue. I deal with this carrier bs daily. Really fucking annoying. No skill win in my opinion.
In late-game TvPs they get to 60-80 workers, stop making them, and then never remake as the workers die off. In this match it was justifiable since no bases but other times it gets down to like 20 vs 15 workers and hero unit DT tactics where it seems like it would've been easier for one player to set aside some of their 10k bank for a couple more workers in the lategame. I wonder if it's just pros getting to 20m and wanting the game to end from that point on?
What about going air to pick off the Observers with cloaked Wraiths? I remember seeing an old montage with that happening. I understand that was probably just a one-off for a highlight reel for StarCraft of yesteryear but geeze! Currently mass Goliaths doesn't seem to be working. However, why not just Shift + Right click on all the Carriers? I'm very glad he did use EMP though! What about Lockdown? What about this? What about that? I mean, it's easy to armchair coach but I hate to see Flash lose like that TWICE haha. Anecdotally, I held off several waves of Carriers with Lockdown on one of the rare times I played a money map. I think ultimately they formed a secret alliance with another player and I was eventually overrun but it was kind of a proud moment thwarting what they probably saw as a quick and easy win. But fuck money maps! Haha.
Not a specific unit but if Zerg gets too much economy against T bio then they can just overrun them with defiler lurker ling or defiler ling ultra. Z can definitely get too big to fail. The matchup is still considered slightly in T favour though as getting to this point without dying and getting enough time to build enough drones is really really hard for Z.
I hate carriers because I know the design idea behind Terran was to use Ghosts and lockdown to deal with them, but the meta is so far gone from anything the developers ever imagined that it's just not feasible in any sense of the word.
I was always wondering why protosses don't regularly approach PvT like Bisu does here, too often I see protosses get to a very comfortable position and then grind out (and sometimes lose) a 30+ minute game without going carriers when they very much could
Because he has the best spawn location for the carrier transition. If it was side-spawn then T will have a shorter distance to travel and punish the transition as that's when P halts army production to free space for carriers, and that's P being at their weakest.
Due to the high base armour of carriers (4) and valks attack being low damage per rocket (6), they barely do any damage to carriers with base upgrades. If the protoss is ahead in upgrades it's going to be even worse.
valkyries do not deal splash to interceptors, so valks are actually not good at clearing interceptors. If you look at the carriers in that game, they were not clumped, so you would not deal splash to the carrier bodies either. Valkyries have good DPS on air, but it is really in small attacks of 6 damage. Carriers have base 4 armor. The carriers might have armor upgrade, but it unlikely terran will have air to air damage upgrade. So each valkyrie shot usually deals 1 damage to the carrier body. So valkyries cn take the shield out quick, but really don't damage the carrier body much. Wraith are really paper planes, they die almost immediately once they take damage (and terran wouldn't have air armor). So you have to rely on cloak to make wraith work against carrier. And it you look at this game, Bisu was always keeping about 6 observers with the carrier group. So to make it work you have to scan in to find the obs, snipe all the observers and then moving shot against the carrier. It CAN work, but if you miss 1 observer, then your control group of wraith evaporate for essentially no damage. So you do see people making a valkyrie to add DPS to shield in their comp. You also do see a group of wraith, but quite rarely becasue they don't work that well at high level.
@10:30 YESSSSS this is FLASH. The starsense here is amazing. I was losing hope in him but he hasn’t lost his brain… He has a plan. What a scan and what reaction! Best play he’s made since he’s been back that I’ve seen! Omg I jizzed a bit! So excited!
In a TvP, would a Starport with only one Wraith actually be a good counter against a Reaver+Shuttle push? Most of the pro Protoss players I see are going for Reaver.
