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What's Wrong with Wisecrack's "How Lord of the Rings Changed | Book vs Movie" 

Tolkien Lore
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Wisecrack has a video ( • How Lord of the Rings ... ) on the differences between Tolkien's original novel and Peter Jackson's movie trilogy, and while some of the points are valid to a degree, much of the detail is pretty far off.
For my video on Aragorn's character arc in the book vs. the movie, click here: • Movie Aragorn v. Book ...
For my video on the character arcs of the four hobbits, click here: • Lord of the Rings Char...
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6 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 50   
@briangarrow448
@briangarrow448 3 года назад
You are absolutely correct about this subject. I was talking about this to a couple of big people and a couple of hobbits just the other evening while I was eating supper at the Prancing Pony. The future does look brighter! There is already more traffic on the Great Road from the south and many more good folks are traveling back and forth between the new Arnor and the Lonely Mountain. I should know, since I have been the largest purveyor of pipe weed outside of the Shire! My business has picked up quite nicely and I am looking at hiring a new young hobbit to help me with my business. I’ve talked to one of Samwise’s boys multiple times and he has that sparkle in his eyes to travel and see the world. I think those tales his father told him lit a fire in his belly to have an adventure or two. So this autumn he and I will be traveling south to Rohan and then Gondor. If things go well, we may see what the prospects are in Umbar. After all, what’s the point of beating Sauron if you can’t make a penny or two after the peace is declared?
@TheRedBook
@TheRedBook 3 года назад
Had never heard of Wisecrack before this video. I went to find this video you were talking about - it may help to link it in the description if others want to check it out? They seem to be quite similar to Screenrant, but maybe not as bad. Still, probably grouped in with them. They both seem to do this thing where they will use the source material if it helps their point, but will conveniently leave it out when they want to make another point. Screenrant is guilty of that all the time...
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 3 года назад
Oops, forgot to put the link in. It’s there now.
@tehwatcherintehwater2022
@tehwatcherintehwater2022 3 года назад
"Even the Wisecrack cannot see all ends."
@TJDious
@TJDious 3 года назад
I really enjoy your responses to half baked critique videos.
@Strangeland_Elf
@Strangeland_Elf 3 года назад
Yeah, I think you summed up my issues with it pretty well. I’d probably have a few things to add but overall you touched on most things that bothered me.
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 3 года назад
Glad to hear it! I tried to be thorough if only because you do have to get into some nuance and detail to show where the problems are.
@aatuylisuvanto9460
@aatuylisuvanto9460 3 года назад
Thank you for your videos! I enjoy your subjects as well as your voice work! As a lover of poetry, it would be nice to see a video listing your favourite poems and songs of Tolkien's Middle-Earth in terms of a "Top 5" video, if you like! :)
@lotsofspots
@lotsofspots 3 года назад
The Fall of Numenor turned the world round from flat. Kinda a big deal.
@phoule76
@phoule76 3 года назад
I always wonder if that actually happened or if it's just superstition.
@nehor90210
@nehor90210 3 года назад
@@phoule76 Tolkien in his later years began revising the story to make the elves well aware of the the world being spherical from the beginning, and the flat earth just a superstitious notion of men, but he didn't get far working it in. He may have realized he'd have to undo or destroy too much of the story to make it fit, and it wasn't worth the effort. There's probably an argument to be made that the flat world is just a legend even in the canonical version of the Silmarillion (if there is such a thing).
@leonardomarquesbellini
@leonardomarquesbellini 2 года назад
@@nehor90210 problem with that is that Aman could be seen from Beleriand (and later from Númenor), which would make the two continents incredibly close to each other if the world was always spherical.
@di3486
@di3486 3 года назад
I want to yell at all these “commentators” particularly on Twitter: LOTR IS NOT ALLEGORICAL, LOTR IS NOT ALLEGORICAL and make them write it down a million times.
@tominiowa2513
@tominiowa2513 3 года назад
People too often confuse influence with allegory. There are many parts of the Tolkien legendarium that resemble what he saw during WW1, but none are allegorical since no fictional character or event is intended to be a representation of a single actual person, event, or series of events.
@spencerfrankclayton4348
@spencerfrankclayton4348 2 года назад
@@tominiowa2513 Some things are. And an allegory doesn't have to be of something or someone in particular; especially with Tolkien's Catholicism.
@kylenetherwood8734
@kylenetherwood8734 2 года назад
You'd think they would choose Frodo being stabbed by the Morgul blade as his "death", because he should have died (but for Elrond), and he's forever changed. Aragon's rebirth would surely be going from Strider the ranger to Ellasar the king whichever moment you think that transformstion happened. Not that I buy into the rebirth stuff, save for Gandalf.
@brooksboy78
@brooksboy78 3 года назад
It's honestly one of the most frustrating Tolkien-related videos I've seen because the gist is right (in that Tolkien did utilize medieval tropes and conventions in his novel), but the details are so incredibly off. Everything they said about book Frodo was just astoundingly awful. It's like they heard someone else talk about this topic briefly and just kind of ran with it.
@jjjjjvvvvv
@jjjjjvvvvv 3 года назад
Great rantof a rant Just asking, how often do you read all the books? I've read them 5 times since i read them first in may last year
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 3 года назад
I don’t have a regular schedule really. Since I started this channel I’ve been working my way back through everything slowly but surely, taking notes on things.
@mikemoore3777
@mikemoore3777 3 года назад
I know this is not the video to comment on this particular thing about but… You did a video about the hobbit movies a while back and you said that Smaug was killed by being shot in the mouth in the movie. I went back and watched that a few times and I don’t see that. I see he was shot where the scale was missing. Can you elaborate on that may be a little bit because I must’ve missed it. if I did shame on me. By the way I am a new subscriber and I love your material. I’ve been a fan for a long time but just recently subscribed
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 3 года назад
It was my video on CinemaSins’ Everything Wrong with The Battle of Five Armies. I did originally say he was shot in the mouth due to poor memory of that terrible movie but edited it when someone pointed it out.
@therealpatagonianpancakes
@therealpatagonianpancakes 3 года назад
"Gondor has gondo-wnhill"
@poeterritory
@poeterritory 3 года назад
I always lumped Wisecrack in with the likes of Screen Rant. (In other words, pretty dismal and to be instantly dismissed.)
@1JOE4U
@1JOE4U 3 года назад
if anything the paths of the dead echoes jesus entering limbo
@Bombur888
@Bombur888 3 года назад
I don't agree with you on the topic of Aragorn. I too prefer him to be resolute from the beginnings, but his character arc in the movies totally works as a character arc. He has proven himself to be able to resist the temptation of the Ring in his journey with Frodo, culminating in the scene where he accepts his choice to go alone, as well as a capable leader of men in the battle for Rohan. I was also wondering what are the doubts of Gandalf you're talking about, I can't remember them right now, but maybe I forgot some scene. Oh, and the funny thing is there actually WAS that other war of the Ainur before the awakening of the Elves, which was arguably even more devastating than the War of Wrath, but that's not what he's talking about :P .
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 3 года назад
Gandalf has doubts at the “last debate” scene where Aragorn decides to attack Mordor, and in the extended edition in his conversation with Saruman after the battle of Helm’s Deep.
@Bombur888
@Bombur888 3 года назад
@@TolkienLorePodcast Thanks! I don't really see it in the Isengard scene (I mean, sure, he seems a bit pained by Saruman's words, but that's not doubt in the Quest nor in its success) but that was indeed a bad decision at the last debate.
@Lukkilikka
@Lukkilikka 3 года назад
i mostly agree but just because a character is old has nothing to do with them being unable to have a character arc? they can still change?
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 3 года назад
Sure, but how many 87-year-olds who have been working on a goal for 60 of those are likely to do that?
@Lukkilikka
@Lukkilikka 3 года назад
@@TolkienLorePodcast it's still possible? Especially when there is a huge change in his life. If you have been working towards a goal for decades and suddenly it's within your reach and your whole life changes that is great fodder for a character arc. It's not necessary, and side characters not particularly having arcs or growth isn't even a flaw in a story, but them being old doesn't mean they can't have a character arc. Aragorn's path into becoming a king is most interesting from the pov of what it has to say about hereditary monarchy and Tolkien's view I guess, and those aspects of his character are best understood through that?
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 3 года назад
Well your point about side characters is also key. Our main protagonists are the Hobbits. What Jackson did was turn Aragorn into a protagonist. That isn’t inherently a bad choice but it turns the story sideways a bit because our perspective on Aragorn is supposed to be the perspective the Hobbits have, as an almost legendary figure rather than a human who is still growing as a person. But as to the age issue, I’m not saying it’s impossible to have a significant change late in life, but it becomes less and less likely. And your argument for the kind of change he might undergo doesn’t really work with the change Aragorn experiences in the movie anyway.
@TolkienLorePodcast
@TolkienLorePodcast 3 года назад
And my main point is that we shouldn’t have to expect a character arc of Aragorn, not so much that he can’t have one. He’s a side character, though a major one, and is old with years of training and work behind him.
@Lukkilikka
@Lukkilikka 3 года назад
@@TolkienLorePodcast I'm not arguing that Aragorn needs a character arc (I prefer book version anyways) just that him being older and having worked so long for it isn't an argument against it.
@tombearclaw
@tombearclaw 3 года назад
Aragorn entering the paths of the dead is him dying to his old life as a ranger and being reborn a king. The death of Frodo I think is probably better considered as the stabbing at weathertop and the agony of the trip and near death at Rivendell. He’s “reborn” with more serious demeanor
@Lothiril
@Lothiril 3 года назад
Both these parts seem like trying too much to get a certain interpretation. Many people have characters being hurt and being more serious afterwards, that doesn't make them an allegory of Christ. And Aragorn doesn't really announce himself as king until Sauron is defeated. He camps before Minas Tirith only as the leader of the Dúnedain, not as a king.
@nehor90210
@nehor90210 3 года назад
If we really wanted to torture the metaphor, we could compare Frodo's near permanent entry into the wraith world following his stabbing with Christ's temporary descent into Hell, but I think that would be strainin' to do some explanin'.
@tominiowa2513
@tominiowa2513 3 года назад
While of course there are some direct correspondences between the Silmarillion and Old Testament (no need to say who Eru Ilúvatar and Morgoth correspond to), there are several ages after the 4th Age to the present, and if a Christ equivalent appeared it would be in the age prior to the current one and certainly not by the 4th Age. A wise decision on Tolkien's part to not include a Christ figure since he did not want to write allegory unlike his compatriot C.S. Lewis (Aslan as much as says to the Pevensies children that he is Christ in their world), and any treatment would have difficultly avoiding allegory.
@Bombur888
@Bombur888 3 года назад
But then again, that's only in the movie. Sure, the Dead also help him to return to Gondor as king in the books, but it's way less of a changing moment for him on a personal level.
@bryanboobaby
@bryanboobaby 3 года назад
#tolkiensnob
@pianogang2273
@pianogang2273 3 года назад
First! : )
@brandonluker3660
@brandonluker3660 3 года назад
You, my friend bow to no one.
@pianogang2273
@pianogang2273 3 года назад
@@brandonluker3660 ?
@SporkyMcFly
@SporkyMcFly 3 года назад
Aragorn's character arc is refusing to take power because of fear into accepting his destiny and taking the sword, being king. That's an arc that works. It's sufficient and honestly in my mind should not be meddled with at all.
@WilliamMoses355
@WilliamMoses355 3 года назад
That entire arc is the meddling. Book Aragorn has little, if any self doubt or fear of falling, and has the broken sword on him. He practically introduces himself as the king of Gondor.
@SporkyMcFly
@SporkyMcFly 3 года назад
@@WilliamMoses355 I think you got stuck on me using meddle in a different context. I only meant that the changes to film as far as Aragorn's character arc goes are completely fine, and if you change it even back to book form it would probably look worse. The best adaptations make changes that fulfill purpose for the new format. Lord of the Rings made great decisions and less than great decisions.
@leonardomarquesbellini
@leonardomarquesbellini 2 года назад
@@SporkyMcFly a reluctant Aragorn doesn't really work when him being King and having the responsibility of taking care of people was what drove him into the fellowship in the first place, and is what makes his later arrival at the Pelennor Fields ahead of a Gondorian and Arnorian army (instead of ghosts) that impactful. Him and his Dunedain company went through Gondor's fiefdoms liberating the forces being tied down by the corsairs and consolidating into an army poised at liberating the capital while Denethor was content to let the realm fall as long as it fell under him, showing that even before being crowned he's already the nation's leader and a king in all but name.
@SporkyMcFly
@SporkyMcFly 2 года назад
@@leonardomarquesbellini In the films, almost none of that is even relevant. You are judging the film by its book counterpart. I am currently reading the books, and I like them. I grew up with the films, and the two are sharing a story but not path. Be content or be mournful. You are depriving yourself of joy to satisfy continuity where none should exist.
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