Around 38:45 Monty says that the options for throwing the ball are to throw it at the couple or to not throw it at all, the second option is actually to throw it at the presenter. I think Monty may have gotten confused because both options lead to the same place of nothing different happening and the ball never being thrown, but the game does give you the option to make Booker slightly more redeemable by deciding to hit a racist with a baseball. (even if it never actually happens)
@@mischiefcalyup the couple finds and thanks ya for not being cruel to them. Then they give ya something. If ya go to throw it at the couple the presenter or an employee of the andrew ryan like jackass gives ya something instead.
I am utterly SHOCKED that Monty skipped over the beat with Elizabeth singing “Will The Circle Be Unbroken” to the little kid. One of the calmer and softer moments of the game that resonated a lot with me personally
59:50 in regards to Chase’s eagle screeching comment, bald eagles don’t actually make that noise, red tailed hawks do, Americans just dub bald eagles with hawk screeches bc bald eagles don’t really make an intimidating sound
Monty. Everyone wants the rule the world is by tears for fears (I.e 56ish min mark) and you mean to say “the man who sold the world.” Which is by Bowie
Something I thought was kind of neat, that didn't even get mentioned, is that the method of getting Songbird on your side is to play 4 specific notes: C, A, G, E. And this ties into, and inverts the expected meaning of, the necklace. The bird or the cage, freedom or entrapment, yet it's the Bird that entraps Elizabeth, and it's Cage that frees her.
I can't believe it took me until now to realize that the coin flip at the beginning of the game is a subtle illusion to the fact that none of the choices you make are going to matter and that they're just illusions of choice. I have to admit the criticism of choices being meaningless seems less significant when you realize it told you outright with your first choice.
1:13:13 Chase is partial correct, but the term he is using is wrong. National Service was abolished in 1973. The correct term is Selective Service and is mandatory or you get charged with a felony, and a $250,000 fine or 5 yr prison sentence.
In reference to the whole "Revenge of the Jedi" thing, that was actually the original name for "Return of the Jedi" but it turns out that saying the canonical good guys are out for *revenge* was a bad look for them.
Was buzzing to hear Chase's reaction to the Elizabeth/Anna being his daughter + Comstock being Booker. So gutted that he didn't seem bothered by it :( Games definitely got its flaws but always loved it despite them. And the "GIVE ME BACK MY DAUGHTER, NOOOOO!" scene gives me chills every single time. Great video as ever! Massive fan of how you structure your dumps and critiques! Merry Xmas!
Big agree to all that, though I can definitely understand Chase's lack of reaction; this game has a LOT going on, and is structured like a whirlpool, where it moves slowly at first and gets faster as it reaches it's climax. There are some stories that can be told to someone without much of the experience being lost, but what this series has told me is that buy and large BioShock is not one of those stories. Even taking away the clear direct commentary the games have regarding video games as a medium, the natural barrier of gameplay allows the story to beautifully pace itself, with a few exceptions. (I'm looking at you songbird segment. And don't think you're safe in that corner B1 big daddy segment!)
I was just finishing up the bioshock 2 lore dump and was like man I hope 3 drops soon and boom right there in my subscriptions first vid. You guys are great! What a fun bunch of friends. And Monty, great work, I really like your style of explanation and story telling.
Currently 1:49:00. The one thing I thought was handled so poorly in this game are the tears. Alt reality bs was just starting to get over-saturated in media at this time and to this day I'm over it. But the thing about this game in particular that I thought was handled the poorest was that Booker and Elizabeth don't take stuff from other realities, they ENTER them. "If we enter, I might not be able to bring us back." None of the plot makes sense because of this, and I can't write an essay in a comment so I'll spare that rant. They use it as a means to an end instead of exploring how messed up this premise could be. They can never go back, imagine that? You're never going to get same universal comforts again, the people you know aren't really the people you know, you can never go home. That to me was way more compelling and terrifying to me than anything else presented to me in this game. Also what a missed opportunity to run into themselves, just so clearly a fumbled excuse to tell an incoherent story with zero meaning.
That whole ending sequence always makes me so emotional when I revisit it. I think it's very powerful. But I do have to say that the first time I played through the game, I knee-jerk rejected it. It was only upon reflection and a second playthrough of the ending that I started to appreciate what the game was trying to say and do. And I think that's the big difference between an immediate reaction to a story and a piece of art and your thoughts and feelings AFTER you've had time to process and reflect upon that story and art. Now, despite the issues that the game has, and the issues that the DLC has for me, I really love the base story of Bioshock Infinite. It's flawed, but it's very compelling and beautiful, and it has very interesting meta commentary. But as such, it's also quite challenging, and necessarily, the Catch 22 of challenging art is that it does "threaten" you the viewer, player or reader. It does prompt rejection, at least at first. Understanding and appreciating challenging art is about INTERNAL rather than external processes. It's about self-reflection and challenging your own internalised assumptions, preconceptions and paradigms. But unfortunately, a lot of the discourse about art in pop culture is defined by the immediate kneejerk reaction to it. It's only years later when that reaction has subsided that more measured, nuanced and thoughtful introspective discourse can prevail. And that's when you get people writing and producing very thoughtful works that start with the premise "I was always told this was crap, but it's not actually". It's a tale as old as time unfortunately with art in pop culture. But thankfully, time, distance and introspection do redeem worthy art, not in the mainstream but among those who have the interest and patience. And that's why I really love these Loredump videos and will happily watch or listen to one sitting. Thank you!
I believe 2:18:28 could be explaind like this: this story deals with the multiverse, meaning infinite parralel realities. In this infinite, at least one such reality has to match the "reality built up in my (Elizabeths) head". So elizabeths power did not pull from an imaginary universe, but used her imagination to pinpoint the universe to pull from.
57:27 Monty your music blindspot is showing again the band is tears for fears. As always love hearing you three get together and go through the lore i loved the bioshock triology.
Chase, you criticize why Booker having a baptism suddenly turns him into a megalomaniacal founder of a racist city-state. Here's my reading: Booker is traumatized by the choices of his life. He was a monster at Wounded Knee, his gambling addiction led to so many debts that he sold off his baby daughter... He is a broken man. In baptism, he sees a way to wash away the sins of his past. But, the way he sees it, he is wiped of not just the sins themselves. He is wiped from responsibility, wiped of those deeds even being bad at all. He is born a new man, and if he is a good and holy man, then the things that led him to that point couldn't be so evil after all. They're just the necessary genesis for the new man he's become. Suddenly, evil means don't mean anything if it leads to a holy end. The path doesn't matter, only the destination. He can build his holy city, who cares about the racism along the way. After all, racism was just a footnote in the prologue of Comstock's story, why can't it be a footnote in the prologue of Columbia? The defiance against the orders of the US during the Boxer Rebellion, stamping out of the Vox Populi, the killing of Lady Comstock..... and, most importantly, the destruction of "the Sodom below". At every step, he believes that the ends justify the means (saving American lives in Beijing despite the utter bloodshed, preserving the sanctity of Columbia despite civil murder, keeping the secret of Elizabeth despite murdering his wife, and purifying the world despite global conquest). Comstock is a man who believes that the "sins" along the way are mere footnotes along the path, inconsequential in the long term. And it's all because his own "sins" were merely footnotes on the path to the new man he has become, all because of the cleansing waters of baptism and rebirth. At least, that's my reading. Feel free to tear it apart or disagree!
Funnily enough I actually commented on a certain youtubers video on infinite pointing out that it's pretty ironic saying that "how can you possibly convey that Columbia is racist without saying the n-word" all while dripping said word several times
@CorkScrew-up8qx lol, who said I'm an infinite fan, when matthewmatosis said that the game should have had people throwing the n-bomb around because now else do you convey racism, while dropping the n-word himself was dumb as hell even though I don't like the game
i think the term you were looking for in the beginning was american exceptionalism lol. it's pretty self-explanatory but it encompasses all of the things you mentioned because the stance basically boils down to "we're the best so none of the rules apply to us, we're perfect and just, anyone who says otherwise is evil." that's a very simplified explanation but you get my point lol
I’m so excited to watch this! Edit: finished! From what I understood from the ending was that Comstock used his rebirth and cleansing as sin as justification to ignore all of his actual crimes, whereas Booker lived with them. He viewed religious forgiveness as an easy out and didn’t actually repent in anything other than name so that allowed him to continue doing terrible things. From then he started feeding into his own ego and racist ideals because if god forgave him once, it didn’t matter what he did later as he would still be forgiven in the end.
i have never touched bioshock before this series but seeing this episode release got me real excited after the last few! it's a Christmas miracle! Merry Christmas to you all and here we go to more lore to be dumped in 2024!
But it’s the heartbreaking reality of the many worlds theory of quantum mechanics. Also the whole point of infinite is that we “smother him in the crib” and despite the multiverse, we found a way to affect change.
@@johnschicitano9920 Did we? If Booker drowns, Elizabeth can't be born. If Elizabeth isn't born, she can't drown Booker. Also, there are simply an infinite number of universes where it didn't happen. This just adds a third infinite set of outcomes to the two existing infinite sets of outcomes (completes/refuses/drowns).
The bit at 1:15 where they're discussing human trafficking like it's an extraordinary rendition sort of bizarre bit of reintroduced slavery? Yeah, no, standard prisoners being bought from prisons. Old style slavery never /stopped/ in America, you just need to 'commit a crime' to qualify for the beatings and chains, instead of by birth default.
57:27 you brought up earlier not being good with songs and bands, and you continue that trend. Everybody wants to rule the world was by tears for fears
One of the best lore channel on RU-vid ! I really enjoy your videos and the back and forth between all of you !! It feels like I'm with friends each time I listen to one of these ! Keep'em coming please !!
I would love if you ever covered the new Prey game. The story and everything is incredible. Heck, even if you covered it on your channel, Monty, that would be amazing ❤ Edit: Especially from the perspective of female Morgan, which ends up having interesting implications later in the game
I think as someone who has mixed feelings on this game, this was a GREAT lore dump but also captures why this game continues to vex me - being explained it truly can't capture either it's best or worst moments, you kinda have to experience them. The whole final sequence feels a lot more like putting together puzzle pieces when you've been immersed in the world and slowly noticing inconsistencies or patterns (such as Booker's seemingly random nosebleeds). Plus the audio diaries cannot be understated as clues - Monty did a great job at picking out the key ones but especially after the "Comstock was made sterile" one, that's when my growing theory that Comstock was AU Booker was "confirmed" in my head. I'm shocked you held back on the Siren fight outside of just some general notes that the ghost makes no sense, what a ballache of a fight that thing is.
Watching these has made me realize Monty needs to read and record books. I would love to just listen to Monty and all his awesome voices read out some great books
Right as I'm about to head home, new lore dump! Huzzah! Thank you, everyone, for providing me with the distraction my anxiety needs when I'm out travelling.
Personally, I still think Bioshock 1 is the best in the series story-wise. And gameplay-wise Bioshock 2. Now, that doesn't mean I didn't like Infinite, but I think it's kinda meh in all areas. Only two guns at a time, vigors weren't as interesting, the fact that you can't die because Elizabeth instantly revives you, and an ending left me feeling more confused and bored than anything. I agree that it's probably the fact that story took a heel-turn when Elizabeth killed Fizroy that really made me not care about the ending. But even back when I first played it, I found myself saying "Wait...that's the end? What?". The whole "Booker is Comstock" twist was very well done, and I actually really liked it. But the idea that the only way to kill Comstock was to kill Booker before he made the choice felt...pointless? If it was a singular timeline, not dimension hopping, then it would've worked perfectly. But it wasn't time travel, it was quantum mechanics. Quantum physics is an interesting field but a key part of it is that there are 'no absolutes'. If there are an infinite number of universes, then killing Booker here doesn't actually change anything. The Burial at Sea story PROVES that (I won't elaborate so as not to spoil it). So, for me at least, this felt like a hollow victory. Sure, you've killed ONE Booker/Comstock, but there will be an Infinite amount of them in other universes. After all, for Elizabeth to have her powers, Booker/Comstock HAS to exist. And if there is a universe where she has her powers but there is no Booker/Comstock, then that Elizabeth have no reason to kill him/them. In the end, it felt like Elizabeth became less of an interesting character because she become so consumed with killing Comstock for what he would do to her, that she selfishly decided to kill her only ally, Booker. If she had showed even a hint of remorse at this, or at least acknowledged that not all Booker/Comstocks were to blame, it would have VASTLY improved her character. And while some might find her selfish turn interesting, it dampened her character for me. Not because she fell from grace, but because the instant she essentially became a god, she became JUST like Comstock. A selfish person who only cared about getting what they wanted. They threw all of her previous development out the window in favor of making her a lore dumping, vengeful, God-tier Mary Sue. I know I'm being hard on the game, but with so many people calling it a masterpiece when it ruined it own societal message, downgraded key gameplay elements, and ended on a note that doesn't make sense within the theme they were trying to adhere to...it makes what could have been a masterpiece into a 6/10 (mostly because of Burial at Sea which I won't spoil here).
I think, (As someone who did not throw the ball) there can be some degree of "If I don't throw, everyone else will anyway, AND I'll be outed. It won't save them. I don't Achieve anything by refusing to throw, except fucking up my mission."
As another commentator said, the options to "throw, or not throw" are false choices: Booker will not end up throwing the ball. Booker will try (to throw the ball at Fink) and be stopped or Booker will not (throw the ball) and be outed.
@@thekidfromcanada That too, yes. I'm just trying to argue that it's not necessarily as black and white as "Racist or not", because a person could choose to throw based on the morals of what they expect the result to be, rather than because they actually want to do it.
Bioshock Infinite. is a deeply *exhausting* game to me. and so I really relate to Chase feeling that way by the end. no notes, I'm just. someone who, with time, stopped even liking the story of it, due to the seams I see in the world so easily. thank you for the lore dump, excited to see the RAGE Monty is about to unleash upon the other two about Burial at Sea.
2:17:46 In regards to Robert's motivation for wanting to deal with Comstock after his betrayal, I often get the impression that it's at least partially motivated by a sense of guilt (more so than outright anger anyway), for his involvement in helping Comstock rise to power and especially for his direct hand in helping Comstock take Anna/Elizabeth away from her father - yes, Booker hardly a perfect man by any means, but if anyone's worse, it's Comstock. As for why Booker wound up being so different from Comstock in terms of religion and racism, my head canon is that Booker might have always been religious before the baptism, and may have internalized some racism and embraced it as a way to avoid being persecuted by other racists for his mixed blood. But when Booker rejected the baptism, he might have thrown aside any sense of religion, believing he was beyond any easy sense of salvation. It might also caused him to become more introspective and realize that racism is bullshit (though it may have also started him down the spiral of drinking and gambling after taking a hard look at all the fucked up shit he did).
I played Infinate when it came out when I was 13-14 back then I didn’t appreciate a lot of it. Most of why I enjoyed it is because people told me it was good. What I remember (before going into this dump) is very small for the story and is mostly centered around how bloody hard the ending was. I played through most of the game on hard but I was UNABLE to finish it without tuning the difficulty down to medium then easy to finish it. I still remember the ending strongly though. I think this game has a lot to do with my love for multiverse/ parallel universe stories. IMO a lot of them are shit but when done right they can be extremely interesting.
2:31:55 …..I need a corset fun fact section with chase in further episodes now. I’m like, my guy what is the backstory for you learning about corsets?? XD
In regards to Lady Comstock and Elizabeth's whole "I built you from a reality I made up in my head" - the implication is that yes, Elizabeth conjured that version of Lady Comstock from her own mind, not the multiverse itself. It's another in the little interpretations that Elizabeth is functionally god almighty in the Infinite narrative (Until she isn't because Burial at Sea is thematically a bag of shite).
Monty put a lot of heart and effort into this dump, and despite completely disagreeing with how the gang felt at the end I still greatly enjoyed this lore dump. I really hate this game and it's ending with a passion, so it says a lot that the gang can still make this recap very enjoyable for me regardless! Just one more Bioshock video to go. If anything this Bioshock arc makes me want to go back to watch Monty's video essay on Bioshock 1 because I thoroughly enjoyed that video! 2:57:59 Hold up... there's a Bioshock 4 being made??? How have I not heard about this??? "There are no more new ideas you can do with this concept, they'll all be the same." What a pretentious, unearned opinion. I didn't think it was possible for me to hate this game more but Monty, that information definitely did 😂
Rewatching Monty's critique of Infinite and it finally struck me about Burial At Sea: Elizabeth being responsible for Jack wholesale is her fulfilling Comstock's prophecy. "The Seed of the Prophet shall sit the Throne and drown in Flames the Mountains of Man".
2:41:00 regarding the "why Rapture?" question, I think there is some logic to it. Booker loses control over Songbird which makes it target him again, so in order for Elizabeth to save Booker she has to incapacitate the bird. The only way available to her is to open a tear. But, as Monty points out, Songbird was Liz' only friend for the longest time, so she wants to say goodbye to him and not just discard him. So, she needs to open a tear to a place where she and Booker can be safe, but which will also kill Songbird. Rapture makes sense, because the overwhelming pressure from the water is enough to incapacitate and kill Songbird, Booker and Liz are inside of the city so they are safe, and it allows Liz to say her final goodbyes to Songbird. I'm sure there are other places that could accomodate this, but not just any place could.
it's so funny and weird how content from years ago was completely fine then fast forward to the 2020s and it's suddenly "woke." Like recently I was rewatching the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, which is super beloved, but I bet if that came out this year it would've been labeled as woke as well
@CorkScrew-up8qx I'm not saying it is. I was just watching it recently and in Pirates 3 somehow Elizabeth becomes Pirate King and suddenly has fighting and navy ship commandeering skills. I'm not criticizing it, but I'm just saying it could be easily interpreted as woke by today's standards, much like how when Bioshock originally came out nobody had any problems until people of 2020 ideology saw it. It's just interesting how people can twist the meaning behind media to support their ideologies good or bad even if they were never meant to be interpreted as such
Honestly I was trying to force myself to finally play this before the lore dump and I gave up right after getting to world 2/1 I felt bad watching the lore dump cause I promised myself I'd finish it but my initial feel was right. It didn't feel like BioShock. The skyhook was my biggest complaint but seeing how the story went I couldve looked past it and still find myself disappointed with infinite. I'm glad I watched this instead. Chase was far more generous to it than I can bring myself to be as a fan who grew up on 1 and 2. Songbird is kinda dope tho so ig I'm at least interested to see him elaborated on in the next episode.
what I still don't understand, after all this time, why killing PC Booker stops all Comstocks from existing. Wouldn't an alternate universe Booker still become Comstock? I always thought the ending kinda threw the whole "it doesn't matter if YOU chose different, another Booker did it" thing out of the window by solving it this way.
Thanks for the Christmas gift, crew. Happy holidays, and have a good new year. I've never heard or seen the entire Bioshock Infinite opening in sequence before, so this has opened my eyes to one of the main ways Infinite impressed people back in the day. It's still true now, but back in 7th Gen and early 8th, critics absolutely ate up AAA games able to deliver grand and sufficiently interactive presentation. The entire intro is that to a T, and it comes off like the only part of the game that was totally uncompromised by its rough development - despite the evidence we have that it 180-ed! That, not thinking too hard about the themes, not beating the game for reasons that also go unconsidered, and Elizabeth, all came together to make Infinite the darling of its day, and embarrassing to look back on now. I haven't gone out of my way to look for them, but Monty is the first modern Bioshock Infinite re-visitor I've seen who appears to like the game and is both willing and able to articulate why. A big draw of this episode for me is hearing that, and what Chase and Neil have to say about it.
best christmas present. I played infinite when it came out, I was 14 at the time and let me tell you I thought it was ART. it was the first one I played out of the trilogy, was the catalyst for me loving games and wanting to write games and then writing them. I was ‘I will get a tattoo of a birdcage and a bird on my wrists when I am old enough’ obsessed. I played it again after about 7ish years since the last time and WOOO it is not great. still beautiful and Elizabeth is still an icon but the story is not good, writing is lacking, and I haven’t gotten to the bit in the video where you talk about it but the mission with lady comstocks ghost is just. why did they do that to us. also just wanna say I love your videos, have been listening to them all back to back since I found you a week or so ago, you have covered so many of my special interest games and I’m playing RDR2 again after avoiding it bc emotions so THANK YOU!! yay
As someone brought up Christian, Bioshock Infinite is actually a really interesting case study. Like, it's *almost* a highly ignorant condemmation of christianity, where the protag's only redeeming choice was *rejecting* a baptism- a rite whose whole purpose is to acknowledge your past sins and become something better, and which in Bioshock Infinite is explicitly shown to make someone *so much* worse. The thing is, the dude giving a highly racist/culty sermon in the intro is the same dude conducting that baptism, and that actually does alot to change the implications of the narrative. From a christian perspective, Bioshock's nightmarish world essentially all traces back to one *really shitty pastor*. Someone who was basically the worst spiritual and moral guide possible, and the protag was rejecting his teachings+message (and the temptation they presented him) more than anything.
For anyone who played persona 4 it’s nuts how many actors from it are in this game rise’s voice actor is a ton of characters and youskes voice actor are a few splicers in the dlc
I always found it an interesting choice to name the resistance movement in a theocracy vox populi, voice of the people, given that the expression in full is vox populi vox dei, the voice of the people is the voice of god
I remember finishing this game before the DLCs came, and I loved it, I thought it was a masterpiece. After playing it again to finish the DLCs, I hated the game, I have never 180ed my opinion on a game like this before. The DLCs completely ruined the game for me.
So, I think Chase got it but just to clarify on the whole national service thing in the states... Almost all male US citizens (and, crazily enough, almost all male immigrants!!!) between 18 and 25 are required to sign up for the Selective Service System. Ever since the draft was ended, there is not a current application for this database. However, it is there so that, in case the US ever does bring back the draft, there is a list of names ready to be pulled from random lottery to infuse into the armed forces. During times of the draft, it was considered by some (especially the wealthier or more well educated) to be more preferable to sign up for the military yourself, as you could squeeze your way into non-commissioned officer status or the national guard or some other kind of service that would make it less likely for you to actually serve on the front lines or in the trenches. Being pulled from the draft process would throw you into the basic infantry, who would be more likely to be in the thick of things. This is to say that the idea of "mandatory service" as it exists in the US is currently just a database, not like S. Korea or Israel, where military service is mandatory. Nor is it like service in the UK sense, where you bundle in like park service and national programs to keep the youths out of trouble. Just some additional context!
You know thinking about the point where to commentary ends I think it’s intentional. Universe 3 is the “plot” of what would be “bioshock 3” comparing fink and Ryan and Fitzroy killing fink is the killing Ryan moment. As well as daisy being our Altus. In universe 3 regardless of reason fights for Columbia and after that the meta commentary begins. I feel like I’ve explained this badly
Lighthouse: The Dark Being A Point & Click puzzle game. Rescue someone's daughter by going to a parallel universe. There's a mechanical bird thing. It's an enemy but later an ally. I'm not saying. I'm just saying...
It's true revolution is often messy but I still think Daisy was painted as corrupt and unnecessarily violent. She didn't need to invent a martyr and try to kill him again when it seemed he survived. She didn't need to kill that kid. It would be one thing if some innocents died unintentionally to explosions or something while the Vox Populi were fighting or if there were a few revolutionaries more focused on their catharsis than the ultimate goal. Fewer people would be upset about that. Daisy was the leader and face of the revolution and ahe kills kids just cause seemingly as if to say everyone there was equal in corruption.
There’s something around 1:35:34 where the… dumpers? The crew? I don’t know if you guys have a title yet. But anyway, you’re discussing why there’s a distinction between the non-enslaved (such as the poor whites) vs. the enslaved peoples, and this actually goes back to something Howard Zinn wrote about in A People’s History to the United States (great read) where basically this was done to prevent the working class from unifying as one common group, since that way the poor whites could at least feel that they weren’t enslaved (obviously this is a summation, and I recommend reading Zinn for a more complete discussion).
