The way to look at it in my POV is best balance of toughness and edge holding above the corrosion resistance of D2, which has always been good enough for me. Which makes my standouts CruWear, 3V, 110V, and S90V. Hell, even K390 is corrosion resistant enough for me, mostly, and that stuff is amazing in terms of edge durability. This vid was an eye opening perspective, and I appreciate ya for it!
Very well done, sir I am impressed by your ability to stick to facts. It’s nice to see videos that don’t put anybody down. That’s hard to do nice work.
6:12 Something that wasn't stated. Concerning that "low toughness" of 3.5, that's not bad for a stainless steel. It's comparable to 154CM or 440C and is entirely serviceable for folding knives. Most stainless steels with as good or better toughness have less edge retention. S90v being the main exception and that is harder to work with. I don't think that m390 will ever be D2-esque. D2 already has the budget category on lock and m390 has a good mixture of properties.
I remember when Zack on BladeHQ was always hyping M390 as his steel of choice. But I can't recall him ever explaining why he loved it so much. With all these steels, budget or high end steel, it all comes down to heat treat doesn't it? As always it depends on how much the manufacturer is willing to put into a knife.
@Rollshambo Buck Knives BOS heat treat system is the best, most advanced heat treat on the knife market. Its exactly why they can take a regular run of the mill stainless steel like 420hc and make it serve the purpose of a standard knife steel better than any company can. You will notice the same with 12c27m, ATS34, S30V, and S35VN from Buck being much better than the same steels from other outfits like Benchmade, Esse, ect
I’ve got a Rockstead Higo 2 in ZDP189 DLC coat Ti handle. It’s buttery smooth sharp but needs a special strop made with denim and electron microscope lens polish to keep its edge.
For me, as long as I always own a knife sharpener, I don't consider edge retention at all. However, I am blessed to own a lot of knives...that helps keep them sharp too 😂
Hahaha ain't that the truth! My ever growing collection is the greatest tool to always having a sharp knife😂🙌 I do enjoy sharpening though, it's why 14c is one of my favorite(most underrated) steels
But why not save yourself the hassle of less sharpening jobs and less steel lost over time as a result? Your knives have a limited amount of steel on them, and while you're unlikely to ever kill off a knive's entire blade stock, you are eating away more steel with every sharpening making that cutting performance worse over time because the geometry simply gets thicker, quicker. Less sharpening = thinner for longer.
@zombeach9589 sure but most of the time 14c is on knives that aren't terribly expensive to replace, and if you completely use up a blade because you've had to sharpen it a bunch you're probably years down the road on it and it was worth what it cost. I'm not worried about that though because if I get my use out of my tools it was money well spent
@@Rollshambo Can't stand 14C and the cost is marginally less than solid deals you can find on 154CM or even M390 even if it's heat treated decently which plenty still claim is "poor" at 59-60 HRC. My m390 twosun cost me $80 and have yet to need a legitimate sharpening job done yet for the past 8 months of bi-daily use going through probably 200 feet of cardboard on those work days. All I've needed was a few passes on a ceramic rod every month and it's good. 30 seconds of time versus what was bi-weekly sharpening for my Civivi Cogent in 14c28n. Can't stand the steel now that I've had experience with it versus reportedly poorly heat treated m390 from TwoSun.
@zombeach9589 to each their own! You may not have had some good 14c examples so far, for example 14c that's been cryo treated to 62 hrc is going to perform closer to s35vn but at the end of the day we are blessed with many options, if you like your twosun that's the only thing that matters😁
RIP CTS-204P being the forgotten third brother (like if there was a third Wright brother). Thanks for laying this out. It helps a lot. When I think of companies that lead with M390/20CV as a premium feature, my mind jumps to Urban EDC. They do have some nice designs from excellent designers but the M390 and overall "cool" tax has slowly turned me away from some of their offerings. I feel like TRM justifies it (along with their pricing/availability model but that's a different story). That being said, my seigaiha UEDC x Knafs Lander was in my pocket today and goes in there often. Oh. I looked up the Wright brothers. They were two of SEVEN. I guess that checks out for the time period. RIP to the rest of the Wright siblings that aren't the famous ones.
great video! being from and living in tropical Costa Rica, corrosion resistance is very important to me, i don't abuse my knives so edge retention is important but not as corr.res, I've liked m390 a lot because of this but I'm definitely eyeing that s110v... thanks!
Far too many people focus solely on the steel type and pay no attention to heat treat or more importantly their own sharpening habits, both off which can change things like edge retention so drastically that it may as well be the next grade of steel. Most of the people swearing by one steel probably couldn't tell them apart from 5 others in a blind test, they just look at all the graphs out there and cling to whatever sounds best. I recently did some testing with Microtech's M390MK and it's mediocre at best.
Last year around May, I purchased a brand new Microtech Ultratech. The blade was made out of M390. I used it on and off for about a year without issue. I only ever used it for breaking down boxes and none of the boxes ever had stables or any metal components. However, around the 1 year mark, I noticed there was some slight chipping on the edge. I have a folder also made from M390 and I don’t have that issue with it. I don’t know if the heat treat was done wrong or what. All I know is I traded it in for a gen 3 combat troodon and I haven’t had any issues with it so far.
M390 at 63-65 done by Cultrotech is like a different steel. It tests it has about the same edge retention as s90v done by them at the same hardness. I already loved Elmax but after getting a Cultrotech Slim in it at 65hrc it became one of my favorite steels (s125v being another). Same with m398, comparing a Fox Knives at 60-61hrc vs an Assassin knives custom at 64hrc. Though that's usually the case for most steels. Custom 440b (61-61.5hrc), 14c28n (63hrc) 19c27 (62-62.5hrc) Nitro-V (63hrc), Aeb-l (63.5hrc), 1095 (65-66hrc), M4 (65-66hrc) M390(64hrc), S30v(63hrc), Vanadis 10 (65-65.5hrc, though i never experienced a production vanadis 10, but its similar to 10V/A11 class) all feel and perform much better than production from my experience. The smallest difference I've experienced is in k390 and Cruwear because Spyderco does a great job with them, getting a lot out of the steel. Magnacut (done at 63-64) and Vanax (most production are at 60hrc) are also closer to customs at 1-2hrc harder (65hrc MC and 62hrc Vanax). Heat treatment has gotten better as if late, but with certain steels like m390 we still see the industry standard being 59-61 or 60-62. Some makers push it beyond 62hrc, but its rare to see. Which is a shame because it performs a lot better then.
I love me a good custom patina tool steel on a folder though, m4 or K390 can take a keener angle than more britle vanadium stainless Steels, maybe better for thicker geometries. I wouldn't buy those thin bugout or deka in 20cv or S90V for fear of chipping in use. Magnacut is another deal.
@dayannahkali I for one am glad that American companies like hogue and protech have listened to the community and are now producing magnacut at a higher hrc, it's encouraging to feel heard, sometimes I think folks forget about the high edge retention tradeoff that is poor toughness(maxamet/rex121) it's a constant reminder that sometimes you get your cake and don't get to eat it😂
I have a Cali legal microtech in 204p, tiny yet mighty. It has served me well. I don't baby it or sharpen it, and it has held up. It's worth every penny, lifetime guarantee to boot.
You hit on a major problem in the industry. I can't tell you how many times I've bought knives and the steel is absolutely sub-par. Could you imagine paying the money for a BMW M5, and finding out they didn't tune it for performance?
It is a good steel, it's a great steel. Just don't buy it from a manufacturer that doesn't heat treat it properly. You can find that same issue with all steels. At the end of the day, my M390 is holding up much better than then any other non super steel. As for the outdated issue. That happens, one day Magnacut will be outdated.
BINGO: THE RIGHT HARDNESS & RIGHT HT PROTOCOL GIVES YOU ITS BEST OPTION FOR EDGE APEX STABILITY. CHASING TOUGHNESS THROUGH SOFTNESS IS A FOOLS ERRAND, & SOFTER STEEL ALSO MISS THEIR TARGET OF TOUTED CORROSION RESISTANCE.
It's sickening that so many companies are running M390, 204p and 20cv way to soft. If you pay extra for a good steel like m390 it should be heat treated to at minimum 60 to 62 not 58 to 60, that's just rediculously IMO.
I think most buy m390 just for the sake of it being m390. I don’t ever use my blade steels hard enough to tell the difference between 20cv, 14c, or s35.
Are these stats on the three knife steel qualities based on a knife steel heat treat or the heat treat that is recommended for the plastics industry? Or do they have comparible heat treats yielding the same Rockwell specifications?
thanks for watching! the ratings come directly from the website www.knifesteelnerds.com , created by notable knife steel metallurgist Dr Larrin Thomas. the tests he performed were on identically shaped "knives" that he made of each steel, the rockwell hardness varies between steels but based on info he has provided most steels on his rating list were hardened to somewhere between 60-62 with some outliers that really do need to be hardened to a higher extent if heat treated to proper protocols (cruwear at 65) - if youre interested in how he got to those numbers he has a wealth of information available on his website and id definitely recommend checking it out :)
Awesome video! Would you say m390 is obsolete as a steel in premium knives, especially when you have steels like magnacut now? Think Koenig arius (m390) vs Oz Roosevelt (magnacut 63-64hrc)
@@m.k.k.4931 ok ok. Now, would you take M390 over magnacut in any situation? Is M390’s slightly better edge retention more valuable than magnacut’s more balanced properties?
Thank u so much for the accurate information and reliable recources, so many people trust the web and there is so much wrong info out there, i respect ur p.o.v.
Great video, very informative! I like m390 it's ok, I have several knives in this steel (and many others) I have knives in d2 that holds a wicked edge and doesn't rust too 😂 (with some general tlc:;)
Wow! GREAT stuff, very informative. So maybe they are making knives with it cuz we THINK we want it? And we think we want it cuz we saw it on a few premium folders, and assumed if they are using it, it must be good? Kind of a fictitious bandwagon? Thanks again
When you do polls you need to do 3 of same poll in order to get as accurate as possible cuz a lot of people may not have seen the poll and you need and actual average 🤙. However I agree
I'll run the poll again because now I'm curious if the results will be si.ilar or if I get a different spread than I did originally, thanks for the idea🙌
After buying a few knives from diverse companies and price point, I can see now how hardness is prior and how anything past 62 is so much better than all those 58-60 stuf, wether s35vn or m390, that loose their edge more by deformation, as opposed to abrasion. S90V is optimal at 59-60, so maybe it is the steel to buy from Chinese companies ,since they seem to do 58-60 regardless of the steel... But that is saying it's a steel for softer and more abrasive materials (cardboard, foam etc), if you want to cut some tougher harder stuff, have yourself something over 63 and higher toughness (M4, k390, Magnacut) it'll be a game changer. Low angles reign over vanadium carbide imo. (and 20cv has not that much of it anyways, not the best catra results either)
I'm making this comment 1 minute in because I have a good idea where you are going with edge retention. To me, edge retention is one of the last things I care about on a folding knife. Toughness and ease of sharpening is king to me. I will follow up after I watch the rest of the video but I figure if you are a knife guy your keen on sharpening.
I’ve been done with m390 for a while. I’m not just sick of it. It’s not all that with edge retention & sharpening. Hopefully Magnacut replaces it & ends up being the default premium stainless
I don't hate m390 I'm just tired of companies touting it as a super steel(even though it is) while refusing to heat treat it to the proper hrc(this is the same issue everyone ended up having with D2) the difference in wear resistance between properly hard m390 and what we typically see is kinda sad
I just bought an otf on Aliepress and I had the choice to go m390 or Damascus for the same price, It was a really hard decision because the Damascus looked bad ass but I wanted a quality blade so I chose the m390. I would link a pic cuz opinions would be nice.
@@KyleMaynard-sk2je Of course it's fake and what's hilarious is I just open the package an hour ago. I can't tell if it's actual m390 but it's definitely the sharpest knife I ever bought. Various things scream that it's obviously not real, not sure how I feel about it but I'm gonna make a lil review short on my alt channel tonight I think. "Random Land"
Thanks for the information. It was informative, but I wish you would’ve made more relevant comparisons. Like steels that commonly used in modern knives, i.e. S30V, S35VN, S45VN, S90V, Magnacut, etc. Thanks! ;-}. MM
You can't talk about how important stain resistance is and then compare it to a bunch of non stainless steels. M390 has excellent edge retention compared to most stainless steels it also has great toughness compared to other stainless steels, as well as superior stain resistance relative to most other stainless steels. M390 has a well-deserved reputation because of these well-balanced characteristics. S110 is great too, but I think its reputation for being difficult to sharpen makes it less desirable for many people. It also has a reputation for not being a very tough steel. This chart does make it seem as if it might be tougher than people seem to believe, though. Overall, I like both but prefer the m390 because it has excellent edge retention while also being easy to sharpen. If s110v proves to be easier to sharpen that i have been led to believe, i will let you know a few years from now when I need to resharpen my s110v knives.
M390 doesn't have great toughness. Go look at the knifesteelnerd tests. It's at the bottom end almost all other common power steels are better. It has too much carbide to be tough.
The machining of the shape and bevels is made before hardening, only final finish and sharpening is made after heat treatment, why would one harden the steel prior to machining, it would no sense and would only make work more difficult with no benefit. If heat treatment should be done prior to machining then the steel would be heat treated by the manufacturer.
Not sure about m390, but if I had to be a snob. My favorite premium blade steels are Magnacut, Vanax, S90V, and Cruwear. As far as budget goes, RWL-34, AEB-L, and CPM 154 These are my favorite simply from me having the best luck sharpening them. If I had to pick one, Magnacut or Vanax. Commented before the video.
IMO, the end user would also have to look at the steel from an economic viewpoint. M390 on a $400 knife? Not such a great deal. M390 on a $40 knife? Maybe a great find. It's all relative. I have a Civivi Elementum Fixed in D2 for $68. It's razor sharp and maintains its edge better than my 420HC and S30V blades. And because I take a little bit of care with it (I dry it if wet, wipe off debris after use) rust, corrosion, and stains are not a worry. I have a TwoSun TS247 in M390 for $40. Is it a "great" heat treat? Probably not. But I bet it's better than most $40 knives. I realize these are junk knives compared to the high end blades on your channel. But FOR ME, the low $$ plus the decent usability equals a great find. And they are tools after all. What's the point of worrying about the blade steel if you keep your $1200 knife UNUSED in a drawer??? I enjoyed your video. THANK YOU!
Kizer begleiter m390 is a total garbage . I own one. It's soft, gets dull just after a few uses. My Buck in 420HC holds edge much more reliably. So, I agree with the author of this video -- a lot of companies just try to ride the hype and put out cheap products, which is worthless.
I think 3v is a great user steel especially for thicker edge geometry type blades or blades that require more toughness for their assumed tasks, it's extremely tough and has very decent edge retention..its weak point is corrosion resistance but of the user is willing to maintain, oil and provide care after cutting tasks most people would enjoy using it...damn..now I need to make a steel snobs video about it😂 ..thanks for watching🍻
M390 has always been my favorite just w/ usage, however Microtech does Elmax right! My ultratech took a razor edge on the W/E and it stays sharp forever it seems
0:02 I dont worry about m390 now that magnacut is now going to take over. Which boring and is just an all around good steel, not what I personally need. I need it not to chip so maxamet is my slice only edc, I prefer 10v but M4 is available more and it's pretty great for my needs.
I own a lot of knives made of different carbon steels and stainless steels. My Bradford Guardian 3 and Guardian 4 made of m390 have better edge retention than most of my others. You are comparing it to ridiculous super steels like s90 and maxamet. Compare m390 to s30v, s35vn and s45vn which are consider super steels. M390 is a great steel
Beware of spyderco lc200n, it's very soft, disapointing... Civivi's 14C is better for a third of the price and no plastic handles... Go harder steel, it'll change everything.
Damn, I wasn’t paying attention just now and I was pretty sure I was watching a video narrated by Taylor Martin. Their cadence and voice is almost identical. 😂
