What TKD and the Cycle7 mean for the Keyboard Hobby 

I love metal rectangles, and the friends I make along the way

having paul talk on this topic was a very good call. his perspective along with simon's adds a lot to the discussion. the hobby is shifting, whether its bad or good is up to the individual. bad makers and vendors will get crushed by this. for good makers, im not sure yet where things stand.

I think good design is still worth a few extra bucks for the most. There's also a difference inbetween people that just want a custom because they've seen shiny pictures on insta and people that are looking for something that speaks to them. Both exist in the hobby and both may exist because they are catered differents towards and the added money is used to develop more cool stuff that benefits all. Yes, you have the 1000+ unit groupbuys that will be threatened, but those are usually household names that already have fans. They may lose sales, but the next Zoom will come out for sure. The small pet projects won't stop getting support either because the buyers incentive is a different one. It's more personal and emotional. What it really does is push the hobby more towards a mainstream pricepoint and maybe even start the race towards being _the_ publicly known company. The next premium accessoir must have decoration, like eames chairs, analog cameras or 80s hifi style equipment.

I think aggressively attacking the keycaps market is almost impossible. The thing is lots of GMK sets are much more niche than most keyboards. Could you beat GMK at making WoB? Yes. But GMK sets fill a market need beyond quality. It's not just how good are the legends, but what the legends are. Niche sets will not be bought in large quantities so they will not be cheap. You can even see it in this keyboard: it's an inoffensive board with a standard layout. This board's pricing does not change anything for things like split 40's. Because split 40's people won't consider buying this. If you want a particular set, you don't care about the fact that there are more generic but cheaper and good quality keycaps because you're not in the market for them. For example, I bought the Oblivion ASCII set. It strictly needed to be that one. Even if there are top quality caps for 10$, unless they were Oblivion and not a clone, it wasn't going to happen. Personally when I buy GMK I pay the premium for the fact that what I want exists at all, not that it is good for the price. That's why I don't think the keycap market can be easily shocked like the Cycle7 shocks the keyboard market.

Thanks both, loved the format of this video and content.

Thanks for both of your opinions. Appreciate the work you two do!

Thank you for a great keyboard talk episode. Very interesting and exciting project. ❤

A well deserved “ shake-up “ for the hobby. Early 2023 was a bit slow and left people wondering about the direction of the hobby.

Loved listening to this talk Simone!

Enjoyed it! Thanks.

seeing the hobby changes for the better is so nice

Coming from a manufacturing background and knowing the Chinese market. This pricing is easily done with quantity and upfront money.

This was a great video, not a single skip, when Simon & Baul Podcast? Lol

simon: cycle7 DOOMED the high end NK: here's type k lol it's now unlimited gimme 800 bucks for that

Thanks for a great discussion gentlemen. Paul. I love your accent.

Awesome long video!

Awesome discussion thanks gents!! I am heading off to stock up on tin food and shotguns now for my post apocalyptic keyboard safe house.

Simon is my keyboard friend

cant wait to get my cycle7, got the purple with mirror pvd.

8 months in, the discussion about wanting a keycap disruptor has been fulfilled. Keykobo makes some really quality ABS keycaps that I would say rival GMK, with significantly faster lead time and great designs. Not quite ridiculously priced like TKD, but still something I would seriously consider before joining another (2 year or who knows how long) GMK group buy.

15:31 as a new comer to the hobby (July,2023), Im literally using cycle7 as a benchmark for any nearby friends... just the other day I was telling a randomer chatter in our gaming group to forget about keychron, get a cycle7 or neo65 as a start off kit. I personally do not prefer any budget boards or China studio boards due to personal preference, but recently the budget boards are getting so good i couldnt let it slip. it really pushes the benchmark of keyboard in all directions esp for premiums

I haven’t seen the video yet. But my thoughts based on title. A low MOQ high end lover will dabble In these priced boards. But a budget board lover will not dabble in the high end low MOQ boards. This only helps the community because seeing how good a keyboard can feel will make the budget person consider the high end boards and notice what separates the two markets.

i miss simon on the coffee table

One parallel to the TKD situation, I think, is that it’s the keyboard equivalent of the “quartz crisis” in watches we had in the 1970s. That era pretty much killed the mechanical watch industry for quite some time, but not entirely. There is still a place for the “classic” kind of watch, then and now (in the sea of many “smart”watches) at prices which can be tenfold and hundredfold of a watch you can get in a mall or something, and that place is there purely through the heritage, craftmanship and quality those “classic” brands provide that people would spend so much more than is logically necessary to get the best of the best. Similarly here, the makers of plain vanilla boards boards will be kicked out of the market and the proverbial Rolexes and Omegas will survive, but there will remain a place for the independent “watchmakers” that will and can offer something different, distinct, and uniquely theirs. Although do expect lower MOQs and subsequently higher prices, since stuff like TKD will REALLY convince many people that the expensive, fancy and master craftman stuff really ain’t worth it

nice vid mates

this is a scary place for everyone whos already invested. even for someone like me who has quit the hobby but still have 4 boards coming this year. i cant imagine what it would do to the hobby. But happy that those new peple coming in will have more choices and savings.

what do you think about the QK60?

chinese manufacturers are getting really bold with their prices nowadays. we got like a few aluminum 71 keys prebuilds fully foamed that only cost around 75USD, xinmeng m71 and aluminum barebone 75% around 62USD called leobog hi75 It's crazy right now here in Asia.

39:00 It's like yeah.... Yeah! You know? Yeah....? Yeah!

Hello keyboard friends

Hopefully some crazy manu comes in TKD style but with a 40% board. That niche within a niche is way overpriced if you want quality.

is the cypher r3 still worth it to buy in 2023? considering that the market has some more budget options

we DOOMED

Are we considering Drop's DCX ABS keycap sets a "good price" OR, are we expecting better?

Excellent video. Do you have a link or or direct me as to where I could buy those "leaf brothers keycaps"? Thanks.

can it be plateless?

Thank god you guys are not of the mindset "How dare they make products cheaper! It'll put the artists out of business!". I think artists should be able to make a living, but consumers also don't want to pay $130 for plastic keycaps, or $1 per keyboard switch. I doubt the keyboard hobby will go mainstream any time soon, but if it does then it will actually bring in more revenue and profit for all vendors involved. However, in order to do that, prices need to come down so that prices are more approachable for regular consumers. I cannot stress it enough that normal people are not going to spend over $100 for a keyboard that they view as just another peripheral. So the vendors can either try to embrace the mainstream market by continuing to drive prices down and increase total profit, or they can keep custom keyboards as luxury goods with limited profit growth opportunity. The sad news when it comes the keyboard hobby is this: Most of what the hobbyists and enthusiasts are chasing after is NOT ART. For example, it's not a matter of artistic taste that people don't like their switches to scratch and have ping, or that their keycaps are not bent. These things are PRODUCTION DEFECTS, so most of what the enthusiasts want is just better production processes. What we know about production processes is that they improve and scale up as we invest in more fixed capital like better machining and production lines. This means that issues like spring ping and bent keycaps will be fixed. But they're going to be fixed by the people with capital to invest in new equipment. Ultimately ... if the industry does grow, I see it will consolidate to a handful of production houses (probably in China), and they might outsource or partner with design houses from time to time to produce limited editions. The winners who will consolidate and eat up everyone else, are going to be the firms with bigger war chest for capital investment. Companies, whose competitive advantage is their artistic taste, are not going to matter as much, and they will simply play the side-kick role in partnerships.

Paul's a g. Anywhere to follow him?

speaking to the “have cool internals” idea, I think Mode did a great job with their lattice mount system for the Envoy for a standard 65, I picked up an Envoy pretty much solely for this mounting stule

What keycaps are those? Leek Brothers?

Where can we buy that Unikorn Tees??!!!

There are sooooo many similarities between the vape and keyboard hobby. It’s kinda mind boggling why designers and manufacturers don’t put their heads together to talk and find better solutions for everyone involved.

People have to realize, this is the future. Let’s be honest here, keyboards have been too expensive, that’s it, period. It is absolutely, blatantly obvious, a keyboard should not cost $400 except if it hasn’t some crazy magnetic suspension mechanism or whatever. And even more, some keyboards have been sold for the price of an iPhone. For some simple stuff honestly. Nicely done, ok, maybe, but still quite simple. Come on. I have always been so astonished by the total absence of criticism around price in the hobby. I honestly feel like there is some kind of vicious logic there where expensive and rarity appeal to people. If I can buy and it’s expensive, some others won’t. And of course, as soon as serious people take this seriously, they will destroy everything. Of course the Cycle 7 costs less than $200 built. OF COURSE. This is what it costs. We just have to come back to earth. (Please note I have myself bought $400 boards, but I knew it was ridiculous)

Potentially it is a pricing strategy that the likes of Temu is doing. You sell at a loss first for a period of time. To gain market share. Shareholders understand this. The promise profit is made later on. After they gained their targeted market share.

Looking forward to a 65% with all the goodies from cycle7 and TKD will have my wallet.

The thing is, shipping less units with more profits is always better for the manufacturer than shipping more units with a small profit. Less fuzz, less problems, less customer service. And for keycaps, fake gmk sets with good quality that cost 10 dollars have existed for a long time. The problem is with designers and copyrights. A designer will make far more money making a gmk set than a cheap Chinese set. So if you want some good and unique designs, you either have to buy fakes or GMK.

Even though the fact that the Cycle7 is insane value is good, I don't like seeing people feeling ashamed to have bought mid range boards in the past. The influence that certain makers, such as Geon, had on the hobby shouldn't be forgotten and as long as a project was taken care of enough it is a good project nonetheless in my opinion, even if it's not the best value in the world. Passing on a great project by a reputable maker just because it doesn't meet the value of one single keyboard is actually shameful. And I would also like to remind some people that not every enthusiast has an infinite amount of money to buy thousands of boards; if you can only afford one, it is more intelligent to buy one you actually love instead of another with better value but you don't necessarily like. TL;DR, I'm coping hard.

TL;DW?

14:03 I kinda disagree there. At the $140 price range, the target audience is usually people who wants to step up either from their basic and stiff prebuilt or people who got other budget boards like the QK65 and want to try something better. Majority of this audience would stick to the foam and gasket builds, especially when their target is to get as many buyers as possible.

Hobby is not doomed just growing. With growth there is more money more money means more r&d, more r&d means better products, better products means more production, more production means cheaper prices, cheaper prices means more units sold, More units sold means people will have more choices with the money they have to spend on boards. Currently an expensive board is somewhere in the $500+ range budget is considered under $400. budget should be considered under $100 maybe under $80. When MKBs were all small custom runs you had no choice to pay crazy prices. Now once units hit the 10-30k range prices will drop significantly. Then they will be able to bring in containers of these. The TKD cycle 7 is priced well but the shipping is $40. When companies start to put up money and can bring in larger quantities at once and not drop ship from china then we will actually see boards that are sub $150 shipped to your door.

good ABS already exists in china, its domikey

bauer lite anyone?

✌️ *PromoSM*

call it me being a skeptic... but there are some flags going up for me. the price is almost a 'too good to be true' level. typically, thats great - but in todays climate... its questionable. but then we start adding in some insane marketing dollars (on top of all the review units - they have invested crazy amounts in fb ads, ppc, reddit, etc) - and those flags go up fast.

What about at the actual price people are going to pay, 205ish to 225ish? Is it really that amazing then? Being 20 or so dollars cheaper out the door than i can buy a zoom75 or even coupd have boguht the mod envoy for? Because of some ball latch mechanism instead of 4 screws? I just don't see it. Fsctor in that the case had to be less material since its this odd function rowless layout which IMO is just odd ans offers really nothing over a smaller form factor. And finally no VIA support on the wireless PCB unlike say the zoom75. I think people are just ignoring the bad aspects because ot looks different and the latching mechanism. Personally im more interested in the Neo65 which will ACTUALLY be able o get in my hands for the $150 mark or the mkc75 which will also come in close to that price iut the door. The cycle7 IMO is competing with the zoom75 and others price wise being in the to my door price of $200 range. And yes it does matter if shipping costs 1/3 the price of the board because of I can soend the same out the door for something else because the shipping is drastically cheaper than that influences my purchasing decisions. I have a suspicion these will end up flooding the used market in

Shipping ended up costing me $40 when purchasing via click clack. Sadge. Total $203 which makes the price more similar to other entry boards, though still overall good value considering the color options, weights and interesting case latching mechanism.