Yeah, let's talk about "Murder Prime." ...hope he doesn't take my face. Join my Discord: / discord Check out my Patreon: / retrospectgreg Check out my Twitch: twitch.tv/retrospectgreg
I agree it wasn't handled well. However, I would argue that the level for battle brutality was always there since the first film. I figured that if Prime had the same kind of gear he had in the third film for fighting Bayverse Megatron at his peak,we'd see a much more equal fight.
Amen, the autobots defend us from deceptijerks,save us,our world, and we repay them by calling them criminals, hunting them down, killing them, then using their parts to make our own robots. And ppl are surprised Prime turned this way? Right...👌 🤣🤣🤣
@@xharerae to be fair, I’m pretty sure he said that maybe twice total, though I only recall the one. Although, he certainly did rip basically every enemy’s face off, I think he only actually said it once or twice
The forest fight is like the only time in ROTF where Prime ISN’T psycho. Things get pretty violent, but I can see the escalation. He starts out very classic Optimus and as the fight gets more desperate, he invokes more brutal tactics. I do really like the idea that Prime can get fucking B R U T A L, but only when he deems it necessary, when the situation has escalated to the point that it has become necessary.
That’s how it always is in the movie you can even hear the shakiness in his voice when calling out for Sam and then he gets killed in probably the most brutal way a optimus prime incarnation
That scene is actually good because you can actually see and hear how the battle is affecting Optimus and I think that most viewers would be able to catch it themselves, but then it's undermined by Optimus commiting war crimes while shouting how he's gonna kill everyone
I think it's funny you say this cause in the Bumblebee movie, the entire Decepticon's ground forces take on Optimus, and that's also including at least three major Decepticons which he handles with a cold and violent demeanor yet quick and precise but it was never psychotic XD
@@theanarchist7575 I think also underestimate how brutal Bee was throughout the whole movie. Mind you, his opening scene has him decapitating a seeker by literally dropping on him. Also, did we forget what happened with Dropkick? That chain trick was a straight up Fatality finisher.
I mean, there is an argument to be made, in the Bayverse Optimus died by Megatron sneaking up on him, telling him that he was weak, and when he was brought back to life, hell on earth just happened. It isn't brutality... It's knowing that if he holds back like in the forest, millions will die, as shown in the 3rd movie when they abided the Human's requests. It's not psycho, it's fucking around and finding out. This prime suffered the Death of his planet, has died protecting a human, and when was brought back to life (through plot) saw that if he dies, this planet is gone too... It's kinda survivor of the Fittest, We can say this Optimus has learned something from Megatron
I imagine if regular Optimus met this Optimus, he wouldn't be disappointed, he'd tell him to rest, to take a break, that he's been fighting for too long.
I can kinda understand with how optimus was like in the 4th film because of the humans turning on him that he was angry at them and had enough protecting them, problem was it was poorly executed.
I’m sorry but him suddenly turning on humanity because a few members of the CIA began hunting them is out of character for Optimus. It makes appear selfish because even if humanity turned on him, he would understand because he brought war to their planet which is enough to make people be fed up with the Autobots
Optimus didn't turn against all the humanity, he was just against those bunch of government officials and that ambitious businessman for killing his fellow autobots and making them labrats.
@@comicnerd1186 No, he gave up on all of humanity because of those government officials and that ambitious businessman. He said that after he saved humanity, they were done defending them. That is not only out of character for Optimus to do but it makes him appear as selfish. The movie does not make a point that it was just the CIA that was behind them hunting down his friends, nor does it show him being mad at the CIA officials specifically.
Well said. Optimus killing Decepticons was never the problem given his status as a battlefield commander in a brutal, seemingly forever war. It's that he kept sounding like he was genuinely thrilled and and having a blast at all the killing instead of doing it because he had to, just listen to how his GIVE ME YOUR FACE, YOU DIE, etc. Sounds more 'murder maniac' than 'reluctant warrior fighting for greater good'.
Okay? Its a fucking catch phrase lol i would probably say that too if some robot was trying to KILL ME i swear yall complain about everything and cant make sense of that shit
He doesn't sound like he's having fun, it's sound more like he's just done with this shit, this war has been raging in and on for thousands of not millions of years, If you were in his shoes, you'd kill and destroy whoever stand between you and ending the madness of the transformers war,
@@dann7217 I don't think you know what catchphrase means. Catchphrase is something that a character is iconic for. If you hear the phrase, you'll immediately think of the character. 'Give me your face', and such, is only really thought of during conversations about Optimus being unnecessarily aggressive and enjoying the violence. Optimus Prime's real catchphrase? 'Freedom is the right of all living beings'.
Some say the Forest Fight changed him. What can near death experience do to a man who so often holds back from killing his enemies? Perhaps adopt a more ruthless approach he will.
no, its the fact optimus is locked in a conflict without an end, and he will never escape the violence so every battle he fights more brutally because he only wants an end to the violence. his brutality comes from a leader who has no alternatives but the violence
@@friendlyneighborhoodkelbea7258 yes i agree with that. Michal Bay didnt even try to touch on the emotions the autobots were going through with all the constant fighting in a war without end.
The decepticons in the bayverse movies are not as jolly or forgiving compared to the cartoons. They are murderous and ruthless. You cant expect the leader of the autobots to be soft on them when they are trying to tear the autobots apart.
EXACTLY !!! While I agree Optimus should never kill or be ruthless, I also standby it's important to know how a continuity differs from another. If we can have an 80s Batman/Joker rivalry that's campy then we can also have a Batman/Joker rivalry that's dark, twisted, & brutal.
Prime literally has the Decepticons being just as violent, twisted and murderous, if not more than the Bayverse ones. Shit, Megatron's forces threatened Earth 5 times in a row on his own volition, without someone "pulling his strings". As much flak as Prime gets, it handles a darker side of Transformers FAR better than Bayverse's own kind of "dark and brutal" that's just shouting "I'll kill you" every 5 seconds, before ripping someone's face off.
@@UncleAsmos2005 You clearly didn't understand what I was saying. I didn't say which version handled the dark/brutal aspect of Transformers better (which I think would more than likely go to IDW). I said there's room for interpretations where you can have a more kid friendly version of Transformers while another that's more brutal that coexists in the franchise for many fans of different avenues. Do you get my point now ?
He just sinks to their level though the whole point is that it doesn't matter how bad his opponents are he has to be better than them or die. That's the whole point of Optimus prime is that even when it's brutal, even when it's not jolly or forgiving he still embodies and practices his ideals at any cost.
Right like context matters as most clips are results of enemies pushing him to the brink of where he unhinges and goes off. Especially most of the clips in AOE like Prime is a broken shell of himself that has lost his way after being betrayed and hunted by the people he laid his life down for time and time again
I think the primary issue stems from how the Decepticons are written, Bayverse was my introduction into transformers and it honestly surprised me when glancing at the comics and shows how much less monstrous and savage the decepticons were in those stories, at least relatively so, some of them and honestly some of the Autobots from the comics could've probably fit right in with the Bayverse Decepticons. With how they were portrayed though, I think it makes a bit more sense how Optimus started to see it more as just a situation where they need to be wiped out, especially with the only Decepticons who seemed to have any real independance were Megatron, Starscreem, the 2 mini cons (forgot their names), and Jetfire to an extent if you still call him that, at least if I remember right. None of the Decepticons seemed to have any real life, not even Megatron felt any grief or sorrow it seemed for them either, just savage beasts that Megatron bossed around.
Bayverse Optimus is so misunderstood. He was never meant to BE G1 Prime. He was his own thing. He was a more realistic take on a robot alien forced to take the leadership role in a universe scale war that spanned for millions of years. Unlike G1 Prime who was in stasis for that whole time. He’s portrayed as a battle hardened and weary soldier. And Bayverse Prime DOES have the core traits of Optimus. He IS kind, noble, and wise. He just has the added realism of knowing when to take names and not take shit from anyone. People love to complain about Bayverse Optimus’ flaws, but they never praise his good traits. Let’s not forget he would always place human lives first, even using his own body as a shield at times to block incoming attacks and stuff to protect the humans. And he literally sacrificed himself for Sam and was willing to use his own spark to destroy the Cube so that the war wouldn’t start again on Earth. On a few occasions he tries to talk reason or negotiate as well. The government wanted to get rid of them multiple times when all they wanted was a place to call home. The Autobots saved humanity three times by AoE and how did they repay them? They hunted them all down and used them to build drones out of his friends. Literally walking corpses. He was even told they weren’t “needed” anymore. So yeah, Prime has a right to be pissed and more cynical. And EVEN after all that, he still comes around and decides to protect humanity again. Not to mention in DOTM, Sentinel, his mentor and friend, betrayed them and killed Ironhide and was planning to enslave all of humanity. His execution was justified. Plus, Optimus tried to talk Sentinel out of it and even pleaded with him last second before Sentinel was LITERALLY going to stab him in the back. There’s a lot more reasons why Bayverse Prime is misunderstood but that’s what I could think of off the top of my head. He HAS the core traits. People just see the flaws which may I add, makes him more relatable and human that the cookie cutter perfect role model, almost no flaws type. He may not be for everyone, he may not be YOUR Optimus, but he’s still Optimus through and through.
in theory Bayverse Optimus is a good reinterpretation of the character, and your comment perfectly illustrates why. but personally I feel like the movies took it too far and I can’t see him as someone who’s only fighting because he’s forced too. “I’LL KILL YOU” and “GIVE ME YOUR FACE” are not things that any version of Optimus should ever say, and IMO it makes him feel more like a serial killer than someone who’s just flawed but is still a relatable character.
@@usedtissuepaper42 Back on Cybertron yes, he was forced. Here on Earth, he's tired and sick of the war at that point so he's more aggressive and "get the job done". Battling for millennia will do that. Also, you gotta put in context where and when he says those phrases. They're all in the heat of battle. There are a few outliers, especially in AoE, but at that point Prime's been brought to the breaking point so he's not in his right mind. This video is pretty good as well: https ://ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-80co3eH9mck.html&ab_channel=Neroidius
I mean if Peter Cullen himself says he doesn’t consider a version Optimus to truly be a version of Optimus Prime, and the majority of people who hate that version of Optimus aren’t just G1 Optimus fans by fans of several other versions of Optimus, you done royally fucked up on writing Optimus Prime.
Mistake: the reason the truck had flames was not because it looked cool. It’s because red (for whatever reason) is a really hard colour to film with cars. It’s why ironhide isn’t red in the bayverse. Although I definitely would try to find ways to make it work and thankfully, ROTB seems to be doing that. But that was why the flames were present
there’s a fine line between making a character darker and more brutal, and making them a murderous psychopath. it’s fine to make Optimus more violent but the movies took things way too far. “I’LL KILL YOU” and “GIVE ME YOUR FACE” are not things that any version of Optimus should say, ever.
@@illyanesterenko8930 came here to say this, lol. But I'd like to add on; It rubs me the wrong way that this is supposed to be a normal Optimus, but seems as bloodthirsty as shattered glass!Optimus. Like, I get it being a nitty gritty world, but there could have been at least a bit of remorse at life lost, blood spilt. No, instead we get a freedom fight who tells newly freed from cages Dinobots, 'fight for MY family, or die'. Yes, totally a freedom fighting line there.
7:10 I heard about a theory that Optimus waking up and immediately threatening Kade was actually him panicking because the last thing he remembered was cemetery wind and lockdown fighting him. And he didn't know where he was. He even mentioned the ambush. Another thing that backs this up is that when he's trying to stand he's shouting "Sam run!"
@@RetrospectGreg 3:15 This one is VERY REASONABLE. He just learned that they killed Ratchet, one of his closest friend, in cold blood and then turn/scrapped him into one of their machines. In fact, Ratchet isn't the only one they killed. They've done so much to protect humanity and that is how they get paid back? It is very reasonable for him to be very upset. 7:27 There is a literal reason for that. He and his team was literally being hunted down and killed in an ambush by the people they swore to protect. I would be just as mad as him.
The Michael Bay Transformers films definitely tears down at the core of who Optimus Prime is as a character with each movie from revenge of the fallen to the last knight.
I'd like to think that the death of Jazz was the beginning of his unhingement towards the decepticons. Optimus realised that he can't just take them down, but out. And truely believed it after he died thus him becoming a murderous psychopath
The Decepticons were actual terrorists compared to their cartoon counterparts from the 80s. If anything, it’s a wonder that Optimus kept his cool that long with them for both the first movie and half of the 2nd film.
Well to be fair he does also kills the decepticons to avenge his comrades when the decepticons kill them so sometimes his rage is understandable I’m not defending bayverse prime I’m just saying sometimes his rage is reasonable.
You wanna know what version of Optimus was innovative yet incredibly familiar? Animated, he is not as wise, and sometimes even mistreated his small group of autobots, yet you can see him as the Optimus he's always been, he's humble, kind and a protector, Bayverse Optimus on the other hand, is just a product of the people behind those movies not respecting anything about who this characters are, like they do with every other cybertronian in those movies lol
I noticed his as well when watching TFA for the first time. Despite how different and unique the setting of that show was compared to other continuities, Optimus is still Optimus, even if it takes the entire length of the series for him to mostly develop into the bot we are most familiar with. It makes me wonder if it directly influenced his characterization as Orion Pax in the aligned continuity. Contrasting this with Optimus in the Bayverse films, he just feels hollow. Like just a bot that has the face and voice of Optimus, save for perhaps a few moments or mostly in the first movie. Then again I could say that about a bunch of the bots since they get little screen time as far as being more than a prop designed to blow up other props goes. At the same time, this version of Optimus did give us his TFP incarnation, which I'd argue is the definitive portrayal of the character next to G1/TFA. Though you have to remember the difference between the movies and these shows; one was worked on by devoted fans of the series (especially the case in TFA) while the other was less so.
@@sulphurous2656 the only aspect of TFP Prime I dont like is that he seems too perfect sometimes, it doesn't hurt to give Prime something like Cyberverse, which made him socially awkward.
I can defend when Optimus kills Demolisher, he could have killed many of the humans on the highway by his giant wheels. Another in AOE is because Optimus was hunted, damaged, almost killed, so he had to go murderous.
@@swector_unit4257 At that point Sentinel was literally torn to shreds by Megatron. HE HAD A CHUNK OF HIS RIBCAGE EITHER SHOT OR RIPPED OUT, and his helmet literally smashed off his head by Megatron. Literally, Sentinel was crawling away, barely capable of even getting up anymore, what did you expect him to do? Get up and slice Prime's head off with his Double Sword?
I saw someone make a video on him becoming more merciless in 2 onward, and they made a pretty good point, he died, and the Fallen, who is a massive threat to humanity, essentially was able to run free, and that fear made him more ruthless. Also, I feel like with Megatron and Sentinel, him killing them was somewhat justified, as Megatron has repeatedly been a major threat to humans, and he can’t trust Sentinel. Essentially a “too dangerous to leave alive” situation. In the rest of 3, I feel like his anger at the Deceptions is justified to a degree. And in 4, he was pretty justifiably angry, as the people he sought to protect for years suddenly started killing their protectors, so I can see why he’d be angry. That being said it is poorly executed
Actually someone made a good point about why prime is the way he is, tho I don’t think it was the intention, it’s one of those things you can infer about. There was this video I saw, that says during the forest battle, he was going all out bc he has a duty to protect Sam, and the way he was fighting wasn’t enough as shown by him losing, and after he dies the last thing he saw was a scared Sam, and him losing not knowing if Sam was safe. So after that fight he realized you can’t always be the strong gentle leader, sometimes you need to be ruthless to win
Honestly I will take that as canon because it makes total sense why wouldn’t you go all out when time and time again you almost lost when you was holding back and not going all out and prime in the movies is kinda underpowered compared to the main bad guys of the movie
the snyder comparison is apt because what bay did with Optimus is pretty much what Snyder did with Superman and Batman, all born out a lack of understanding (and probably contempt) for who those characters are
When you're at war there's no time for sympathy. It's kill or be killed Optimus tried being nice and got murdered This was live action not a cartoon Cons murdered Autobots without a second thought
@Predator_Wolf he was extremely injured, and no way to communicate with ratchet (who was alive at the time) or any other autobot to help him. I doubt he wouldve been able to do much after new mexico ambush
Tbf, this is probably the most realistic version of prime. He started of as idealistic and preferred diplomacy and knew when to get violent when necessary. Then in revenge of the fallen he gets his shit rocked in the forest by megaton after not killing any of the Cons when he had the chance. After megaton kick to primes face, he gets real because he could loose everything. Then he dies because he never went all out and let his guard down. Then megaton calls him weak just before killing him. Prime basically thinks he's doomed the world by not taking out the Cons when he had the chance and paid the price. So when he gets another chance to save the world when he's revived, he's taking no chances because last time he did.. he died. That development after his death remains in his character in dark of the moon. He doesn't hold back at all because the world is at stake. He kills megaton because he's a liar and a war criminal who slaughter countless of his friends, then sentinel was a traitor who was willing to enslave a race and work with megaton (plus he executed ironhide, so that wound is still fresh) Then age of extension he basically gets attacked and almost killed because humans sould him out to lock down. Sam's dead (you can hear him tell Sam to run when transforming in cades shed) so he's being attacked and gets taken out of commission because he was betrayed. Then he finds out his friends are being melted down by humans. After all that... honestly it makes sense for prime to be as he is. Friends die. Friends betray him. His own ideology of him not killing until necessary gets him killed and he thinks hes doomed the world. The people he sworn to protect, betrayed and melted his friends down. Prime is just a normal dude in a metal body in the bay verse
Regarding Sentile Prime's death, the original script had him and Megatron double-team him. During the fight Sentinel would still have his rust cannon and try to use it on the duo, with Optimus managing to disarm him and fire a shot at sentinel instead. Effectively it meant that Sentinel never yielded at any point, and it also would've given Optimus's "You betrayed yourself" line more relevance. IIRC the scrip changed because of a leak from IDW, which infuriated Michael Bay at the time. I don't know the details off the top of my head though.
If there's any consolation to this, Bayverse basically served as a "what NOT to do" guide for the portrayal of Optimus in TFP and the Cybertron games. Even if Bayformers overstayed its welcome by 2 more movies after that.
In defense of Optimus. -With Scavenger in the opening of TF2 he's too big, and can't be contained without causing more harm and destruction not to mention just like with Bonecrusher in TF1 he was killing innocent bystanders on the freeway. And it was mentioned at their base that was the 6th decepticon attack that year in a row, making Optimus unease with this one being the biggest yet. -He revival from death and beyond made him see what needs to be done, if he hadn't the fallen would've found a way to turn the harvester cause Optimus let him live if people wanted. -His master sentinel prime killed his friends, and he lost the peoples trust that he worked SO HARD to maintain between humans and autobots but to see their lack of care for alien diplomacy shown to Optimus "why should I try anymore". -Sentinel just like the fallen, would've gotten back up and try to kill humanity again so Optimus ended it there right after he pleaded for Sentinel to stop after his arm was cut off and being dragged. -He did killed Megatron cause originally they didnt know if this was going to be past a triology, and before you mention the supposed alliance they were going to have Bay did what was best and made Megatron karma catch up to him. In a way Megatron would've gotten bored with peace and cause more death through power. -Optimus yelling "I'll kill you" when awakening before cade is because they were ambushed and he went into hiding in TF4. -Optimus becoming Nemesis was Micheal Bays take on everyone critizing Optimus being a murderer yet want more fan service they ask he gives. Michel Bay isn't the best director nor a good one but he knows what the majority of audience wants, the most complaints about this live action franchise i get are actually from the fans themselves, not the majority of the public, no one wants to watch a giant alien robot shake hands and hug with the meany decepticons, when the whole premise of this brand is to sell action toys, its even mention by Fox's character "Oh really they just had a giant toy deathmatch" I'm an TF fan G1-TF Prime was my show years and I love how michel bay includes refernces to all the shows, I don't hate the Bumblebee movie, but don't think I'm any less of a TF fan because I'm not a genwunner, or I like hot actresses running from random explosions. -Besides bayverse autobots really dont care for us Optimus actually vouches for us. TF1 Ironhide=Why are we protecting them their a primitive and violent race. TF2 Ratchet=Ironhide we should just leave this planet. TF3 Sentinel=I am a prime I do not take orders from the likes of you. TF4 Hound=Prime, we're surrounded can I squish all the humans. and Optimus is not the only autobot who does death sprees. TF2Sideswipe=Damn I'm good! TF3Ironhide=Class dismissed TF3Sentinel=I here by discharge you from duty. to be fair we all enjoy Transformers I think its more appealing than Marvel IMO. But I will admit Bay should've collab with Peter and Frank on how the characters of Optimus and Megatron should be more appropriate to the big screen like Optimus forgiveness, and Megatrons terror influence on his decepticons.
I think Optimus turned murderous because at the forest get got jumped and got killed holding back, so he figured he might as well even the odds by not holding back
Sentinel was gonna kill him once he was down and begging for help, it’s pretty fair to me at least with sentinel especially after straight up killing ironhide
@@RetrospectGreg why should/would optimus give him that chance in the first place? he betrayed them in the past and got a lot of bots killed and shot ironhide in the back. Optimus knows this, why expose himself to a counter attack to stay on the moral high ground?
I mean…Primeverse Optimus was literally going to shoot a defenseless Megatron. I still like Bayverse and will defend him, but 4 and 5 was a very heavy decline of his character. Transformers 3 was just, his break point. Transformers 2 he rightly killed a Decepticon who killed several people. Killed a Decepticon who wasn’t going to stop fighting him and the biggest, and then Fallen. Someone who wouldn’t stop. Though IDW Optimus is kinda like Bayverse and I’m pretty sure Primeverse he also asked someone for final words…I think
Yeah, after two whole seasons of putting up with Megatron's bullshit. This Megatron, mind you, wanted to ressurect the dead on Cybertron to conquer Earth and wipe out humanity, smiled and laughed as he almost killed a kid, consistently has tried to kill every Autobot he came across, ALMOST DESTROYED EARTH. Only then did Optimus go "Megatron must be Destroyed, no matter the cost." Before that? He literally said that he never wanted to kill him, just change his mind.
There was a key difference though. We never knew what his actual intent was as he held Megatron at gunpoint in the mine; he had plenty of time to put his lights out permanently but held his fire as Megatron just stared at him. As for the previous example there was a lot of on-screen build up surrounding Optimus (as with G1) being a bit too soft towards the likes of Megatron. And whilst scrap never really hits the fan like in Bayverse (given the whole premise of TFP is avoiding the Bayverse scenario, as Optimus so eloquently put it in Darkness Rising when speaking to Agent Fowler who is basically the Agent Simmons stand-in here) it still took some noticeable pushing before he decides that enough is enough. And even then, as he's walking down the corridors of the Nemesis he states "I have come for Megatron, and him alone. Stand down, and be spared." communicating that his intent is to solely eliminate Megatron here in that moment of tranquil fury. And he doesn't butcher the other Decepticons during the show after this either, and is immediately willing to cooperate with Megatron afterwards to defeat Unicron, nor is he shown to be as furious as he was in that moment afterwards.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who understands this. I grew up with these movies and I have a soft spot for them. It annoys me that so many defend this but would think other if captain America or spider man would say this. It’s like how people are tired of dark and edgy Superman, I’m tired of this Optimus. I want an Optimus to feel like he would never stoop down to be like megatron and be hopeful. I think transformers prime did him the best oversell. Still a caring leader but still has serious moments
Optimus was killed way more brutally then g1 prime literally gets stabbed through the back slowly and painfully and lifted up in the air and gets his chest blown out and the last thing he sees is his horrified human friend and yet people keep comparing him to g1 prime that died on a medical bed with his friends gathered around him and also had a different experience being on earth then him it makes no sense
The way I see it is this. During the forest battle Prime realizes that the Decepticons will never stop and he's going to die because his kindness was his weakness (instead of killing Megatron be just made it so he can't run) so he puts that weakness to the side and does a it's now or never moment. Once he gets revived he realizes that he has a second chance to not do the same mistake and be shelfs his kindness, his weakness so he won't be foolish again and go for the kill instead of stabbing a leg. (It took me over a decade to realize this)
I'm pretty sure the reason why prime from the bayverse became a psychopath is not because it felt cool but because he had no other choice In the forest battle he holds back and shows mercy but after Megatron boots him and sends him across the field he realizes its a do or die moment and enters a frenzy but after the harvester activates prime then goes "enough is enough" and decides to not hold back his punches
Prme was nerfed in the Bay movies. He losses almost every single one on one fight against all but cannon fodder Deceptacons. He only wins major fights by stabbing his opponents in the back.
As you said, everything started from the battle of the jungle. Optimus paid the highest price for not being reckless in killing enemies, and time is his life itself, leaving Sam alone for Megatron to get what he wants on a plate of gold. Those are his last thoughts before he died and when I revived him, he learned the price of leaving The living enemies and the exorbitant time that he paid is his price, so he will not hesitate and leave another opportunity to repeat what happened. As for the point of Optimus turning into evil, it is a wonderful point. Just imagine if Optimus lost his morals little by little because of all the losses he suffered, and since he is a leader, the loss will be heavier for him because he Part of it in each part falls apart more and more, becoming like his enemy Megatron and lost on the road like his mentor Sentel Prime. Just imagine if the consequences of all the losses were what shaped Nemesis Prime and led him to be indifferent to humans after he sacrificed so much for them. Better than being a washed-up idiot. brain for five minutes
If OP wasnt as brutal as he was in these movies, he loses to Bonecrusher, Megatron, the Fallen, Shockwave, Sentinal, “Galvatron” Lockdown and whatever that wierd combiner in TLK was. G1 OP is stoic, calm, almost like a dad. But for as bad as the Bayverse movies are Prime had to be a killer. The Decepticons easily win in every movie if he’s soft.
I think IDW did it best when it comes to a violent Optimus Prime, cause theres a character arc that showed a naive but idealistic Orion, then the cold veteran with a hint of brutality after some centuries of war, and when he is finally made Optimus Prime, he becomes much more like G1 Prime though there's still that cold veteran that lingers from time to time, expressing a desire to kill only when its painfully clear his opponent is unwilling to change their ways or their too irredeemable and even then he still upholds the law over a summary execution. (Granted I still got my own grips with IDW iterations of other characters)
I really don’t get why people don’t get optimas and why he is the way he is. You can’t compare G1 optimas to bayverse, they weren’t aloud to even be violent, they almost didn’t give megaton his name because it sounded to scary. Yes he’s way more violent than he should be somtimes but this version lost so much and was betrayed so much. His own master betrayed him and shot down a close friend. Idk I get what people are talking about but yk? Also I love G1 optimas ofc I hope you get what I’m trying to say tho.
Hey In age of extinction Prime did say they will get the seed first before leaving humanity so they wont be turned into cybermatter So while brutal and more ruthless then his other counterparts....he always has a good spark and tries to do the right thing.
Optimus prime didn’t start as a murderer, the first movie he tried his best not to kill if he didn’t need to but after he realised the decepticons would never stop killing humans and never stop at all
I think this whole situation is just extremely unfortunate. Like some other people already described better than I can, there are so many details that could have been fleshed out more to make Optimus' descent into aggression and ruthlessness a really deep and well thought out story, but it the actual movies feel like a fight between the writers and Bay, with Bay insisting on his typical brainless badass action and the writers aiming for a more dramatic and emotional angle, which they have to sneak in or write around to fit Bay's vision. I actually really enjoy Bay's Optimus, but that's just because I went out of my way to think and see more about what he has gone through and what the stuff he went through would do to him. However most people will understandably not put their efforts into that, because Bay seems to have not put too much effort into the matter himself
Bruh why yall want some unrealistic hero bullshit. They are literally fighting a war xD This is my favourite Optimus not some childish I wIlL sAvE eVeRyOnE type shit
You want bro to be… soft? I’m just not understanding. This universe (the bay verse) is a million times different than any other form of transformers media, you really think after everything Optimus went thru he’d just let them (deceptions) go like Batman??? Na bro’s getting it back in blood
Facts and even then he tried to talk them out of it before having to defend himself and others but for some reason they want prime to be a push over or like Batman
It's in the forest battle where Optimus changed. After Megatron stabbed him through the chest. Megatron said "you're so weak.". I think those words haunted Optimus and forcing him to kill every thing that stands in his way
I see it as millions of years of war have made it like this and when jazz dies he decides to not be so kind but in the forest battle he does only try and incapacitate them (like when he was going for megetrons legs instead of going for the kill) but during that fight he realizes the decepticons will never stop and he needs to kill them to make sure nobody else he loves dies
In bumblebee Optimus first scene was him shooting and flipping decepticon seekers and that is what war is, micheal bay gave creation to an Optimus who has to deal with even more twisted versions of the deceptions, his friends dying viciously from deceptions and even the humans, the species he chose to protect, also he died and got brought back to his hell. I see total justification for Micheal bays Optimus prime
6:39, 7:15, & 7:21 To clarify, in the original ending Optimus does accept the truce but it was later changed because it got leaked through a comic or something like that. With why he said that to Cade was because it was a natural response to what happened in between the 3rd & 4th movie. Its implied the Autobots were ambushed by the people hunting them in the 4th movie. This also lead to Sam's death (you have to listen closely to hear him say "Sam run" when he awoken). So he was already on edge once he powered down but when it was distributed by that missle going off, he just assumed it was the same people. This is also why he was so mad at humans & gave up on them. Just wanted to make those 3 moments clear
Some people want to call Geewuners nostalf*gs, but honestly, Baytards are no different. They use the same overused attempt at defending their Optimus. "It's a serious continuity. War is cruel and blah blah blah" Buddy, Bayverse is just edgy oneliners, military propaganda and violent scenes with robots handcramped into a Disaster movie, where the giant robots are the disaster. Armada, for all it's flaws, is more serious when tackling shit like Optimus and Megatron's eternal rivalry, Prime gave us an Optimus that is willing to kill when the time calls, even if it means blowing a weakened Megatron's head off yet it's never screaming about griding you into dust with his bare hands of threatening to kill you, and he gives everyone but Megatron a chance to back off. Even Cyberverse is far more serious at times, with an Optimus that, while inexperienced, is a deep character that you can stand to be around for more than five minutes. Tell me one time, one fucking time, outside of 2007, where Optimus behaved like any other Optimus towards his own troops. Not fucking humans, but his very own troops, who quote-unquote "Have served him for thousands of years." Spoiler alert, there isn't one. There's little to no connection between Team Prime in the first three movies, outside of Bumblebee and Optimus themselves, the autobots are background extras, and that's being generous. We get exactly two scenes where the Autobots act like actual Characters, and have small dialogues that really shine a light on themselves. 2007's Observatory scene, and Optimus talking with Sentinel in Africa. Hound has more character than 70% of all character, and that's just Jonh Goodman being Robo-Jonh Goodman. There's no deconstrucion of the character in Bayverse Optimus, just a bland, unoriginal attempt to make a character "appealing" by reducing him into a massive, bitter and loud asshole as the plot goes on.
@@thanostitan2746 Someone said that? Most complaints I heard were about the CGI for the movie looking dull and stiff, and those came from the same people who praised Optimus and Bumblebee's designs in Bumblebee.
I think everyone has to remember that Optimus probably thought the war was over once Megatron died in 2007. After Megatron came back and Prime realized that not only has nothing changed about him, but that he quite possibly had only gotten worse, Optimus decided that there was no saving his enemies from that point on. After all, the Decepticons would truly never stop at one.
As someone who never grew up with the Transformers cartoon, I thought Prime going brutal on his enemies was badass😅but I am beginning to understand that's how he is not supposed to be potrayed. I''ve seen the 1986 movie and I now understand why he didn't blast Megatron straight away after the fight, it's because he is not looking to go on the path of revenge, even after Megatron killed some of the Autobots. In the Bayverse, he progressively got even more vengeful and less merciful after the first movie. Heck, even in Rise of the Beasts (which is a reboot of the franchise) they went back to making him hate humans and be brutal again🤷♂️Even after they got him right in Bumblebee, according to die hard TF fans.
I imagine this was the case of they were trying to make Optimus more cooler and badass with each movie, and in the mind of someone like Michael Bay, that meant making him into the robot equivalent of the Punisher.
Optimus changed when he died an came back to life because he knew the only way he can actually win and save the planet was if he was as ruthless as his enemies because they wouldn't stop at nothing to get what they want and him holding back wouldn't benefit anyone but cost more human lives. It's very subtle character development but definitely there
I think the "I will kill you" etc is bad for the character until Age of Extinction. Before this, he is supposed to be a leader and not a hollywood hero but in AofE he loses it in my opinion. He has watched humans (his most trusted allies) turn on him and his kind for greed and he has watched recordings of his friends die unable to do anything. So in AofE the line "when I found out who did this, they are going to die" is justified because humans have turned on him and his friends in an instant and now there are only 5 autobots left alive from the large roster of previous movies. This also works well with the later line by Prime "Those were my friends" which is a big kicker for emotion in a movie which is not ranked the highest in terms of the Bayverse.
if your gonna compare bayverse and g1 look at it in both their eyes bayverse prime came to earth and was portrayed very well in comparison but after the Forrest fight in revenge of the fallen you see in his resurrection that hes lost and adapted to a new mentality, that no matter what the deceptions will stop at nothing for their goal and it took his homes destruction the lives of friends and seeing a scared Sam in the Forrest not knowing if he would live or not to adapt to a more effective and almost murderous prime we see in the later films. is that what Peter Cullen described in that old interview no , but its what any reasonable organism would turn into given the circumstances prime was given since he arrived to earth
For some reason you’re expecting the Autobot leader, who has to go up against thousands upon thousands of Decepticons who are out for BLOOD, to be gentle with them. That ship sailed at the beginning of the war, and he’s adamant about that throughout the Bayverse movies
Facts they compare g1 which is funny because g1 prime was going to kill megatron when things got real in the 86 movie but they ignore it and say it’s up for debate when we all know he was going to blow megatrons head off
8:56 Well according to Theorymus (Formerly Trans Theories) Bumblebee’s speaking voice at the end of the first movie isn’t his natural voice even the Autobots didn’t seem to have a shock or surprise reaction but Sam thinks he speaks for real
Unfortunately he's not any different in Rise of the Beasts. He acts prejudiced towards humans, almost never accepts their aid, would rather abandon Earth to return to Cybertron, and goes after Scourge fueled by revenge.
@@Al-bars No... he's still Optimus Crime.... When we first see him in RotB, he hates humans, and spends most of the movie prejudiced against humans, even after Noah helped Prime out. All he wanted to do was return back to Cybertron at the earliest opportunity, even though Bee recently encountered Depticons on Earth. The first time he accepts human aid was in Peru, and he had to be taught by Primal that humans were worth saving. And the very moment Bumblebee was gravely injured, Prime started a whole revenge plot to kill Scourge no matter the cost. Primal was that bloodthirsty, despite having more of a reason to hate Scourge and the Terrorcons. And at the final battle, while Prime did learn accept humans and fought for Earth, he acted like Bayformers Optimus Crime when he brutally executed Scourge. I think both versions are pretty much the same.
@@taqresu5865 Well, ROTB Prime is more inexperienced than Bayverse Prime. He doesn't exactly hate humans, he just doesn't trust them and doesn't want them to get involved. I feel like Prime killing Scourge is justified since he did kill Bumblebee in front of him and took his insignia. (Also, I wouldnt say Scourge was executed, unlike a... certain other villain in the bayverse) The reason Primal wasn't as bloodthirsty was because he and the maximals promised to hide the key. Granted, Primal has a better reason to kill Scourge, but he's not exactly 'eagered' to kill him. The difference between Prime and Primal is that Primal was on Earth for thousands of years, allied with humans and promised to keep their world safe, Prime has only been on Earth for 7 years, just as a place to regroup and eventually go home Optimus in ROTB takes blame for him and the Autobots being stuck on Earth, while Optimus blames the humans in AOE, even though he was the one who awoke Sentinel, which led to the destruction of Chicago. (I mean, his reasons for hating the humans is *somewhat* justified in AOE... somewhat) Another thing that makes ROTB Prime different is that before he killed Scourge, he said "time to show you the real power of a Prime!" since earlier in the movie, Scourge said to Optimus, "Primus would be ashamed" while in the Bayverse, Optimus says the most ruthless things when killing decepticons. Like when he killed Demolisher, he said "Any last words?" and "not today" right before shooting him in the head, execution style. As well as when he killed Grindor, calling him a 'piece of tin'
@@Al-bars The thing is, Bumblebee obviously told Prime about his experiences, and both he and Mirage embraced aspects of human culture, and this is basically the only version of Prime that didn't immediately trust humans. And the way he acted towards Noah... he didn't even give the guy a chance. Even though Prime trusts Mirage. Prime even told Bee to stop going to Drive-in theaters. Its like he doesn't want any Autobot to immerse themselves with humans or human culture. They have characters in the movie trying to defend Prime, almost like the writers knew Prime didn't act like Prime. Also, have you seen how many times Bayverse Prime's executions involve destroying the heads of his enemies? I'd this was in line with those executions. Only this time, Prime could use molten lava. Also, it's weird that he wants to leave the Earth unprotected even though it was Bumblebee who asked Prime to go to Earth, and it was previously established that Decepticons were just present on Earth. The reason I take issue with all this is because Optimus Prime is supposed to be the role model figure, an archetype with a consistent moral compass that other characters look up to. More of a father figure than an brother. A towering leader who's sure of himself, and prioritizes saving lives over defeating his enemies. Even in shows like Transformers Prime, where he's relatively isolated from humanity, he immediately takes on the initiative to pretect the kids and any other humans the Decepticons put in danger. And he only really gets aggressive when it's a last resort.
Its funny because in the games of rotf especially the ps2 versions he was very humbled. After the fallen turned on the machine optimus realized he would not sacrifice earth for cybertron but will sacrifice the fallen to throw him into the machine from destroying the sun.
I feel like this series was 100% the reason why I was ok with Luke being bitter. Because he’s human and had lost a lot between the original and sequel series. Luke wasn’t ruined nearly as much as Optimus was. Optimus was supposed to be THE leader, the one who was strong enough to be gentle. Forceful when necessary. Ppl srsly needed to stfu about Luke and from now on I’ll bring up bayverse Optimus anytime Luke is mentioned.
To be fair, optimus not having his morals in AOE I actually liked as if someone killed all your friends and exploited their body parts for money, you would lose your mind but in the other movies it makes no sense. Also I don’t mind it too much with sentinel but with everything else I don’t like it
It always felt so it if character for Optimus to treat the dinobots like that because of how he essentially forced them to do what he wanted which is something only a descepticon would do
3:15 This one is VERY REASONABLE. He just learned that they killed Ratchet, one of his closest friend, in cold blood and then turn/scrapped him into one of their machines. In fact, Ratchet isn't the only one they killed. They've done so much to protect humanity and that is how they get paid back? It is very reasonable for him to be very upset. 7:27 There is a literal reason for that. He and his team was literally being hunted down and killed by the people they swore to protect.
@@RetrospectGreg The Bayverse is a realistic version of Optimus since his been fighting this war for years and did evertthing to defend the humans only for them to betray him
He still talks violent in rise of the beasts, but it's combined with the pain and weight of potentially losing his home planet and believing it's his fault. He remains brave and ready for anything though. He is also gentle when handling humans and property.
I actually kind of like the Michael Bay Optimus way better than Rhys the Beast I've seen rise of the Beast and as somebody that grew up watching Transformers Armada and Transformers Cybertron and Energon I actually liked the Peterbilt flame truck Optimus versus the Western Star Optimus
If going around ripping peoples faces off and screaming I’ll kill you is not a psycho thing psychos would do then I don’t know what makes a psycho in your mind
@HenryLouis21 1: Context matters. 2: Optimus said GMYF yo the Fallen as retaliation for him wiping out his ancestors. Sentinel was executed because that is what he deserved. A traitors death. 3: You shouldn’t expect Optimus to sprinkle pixie dust and make the bad guys go away. This is a fight. He cannot always be Robo-Superman. This ain’t a Saturday morning cartoon.
@@robbyrhodes4572 even with context it still does not make what Optimus do any less heinous. Him ripping the Fallen’s face off is not in reference to the fact that he whipped out his ancestors, he just said it to rip his face off like a lunatic. It’s not a callback to anything The Fallen said earlier. Also, saying that Sentinel deserved being executed sounds infinitely worse because Optimus is not in authority to say who deserves to be executed in cold blood especially when that guy is meant to be his former mentor. The problem is not Optimus killing his enemies since he’s a soldier after all the problem people have is that he goes out of his way to commit war crimes every chance he gets. Also, didn’t know that having a morality and sparing your enemies is a concept only relegated to Saturday morning cartoon shows and characters. Because it’s not, heroes having a morality and not going out of their way to execute downed enemies of combat who is begging for mercy or brutalize them like a goddamn barbarian
@HenryLewis21 1: The context DOES matter. 2: Not every Optimus is supper to be the same. 3: what were you expecting? Optimus to sing kumbaya? If the Decepticons aren’t going to listen, they sealed their fates. Optimus isn’t a superhero. Hate to break it to you, this ain’t 1984 anymore. It ain’t war crimes if the bad guys are causing chaos. You need to learn to separate fantasy from reality. Grow up.
@@robbyrhodes4572Not sure if Bayverse fans are dense or something here is a thing, no context does not matter because even with context it doesn't change the fact that his actions in the movies like him mutilating his enemies are still bad. Also, even if every version of Optimus Prime is different, everyone still retains the qualities that make them Optimus Prime, they retain the quality of a strong leader who despite his strength is compassionate and kind. " what were you expecting? Optimus to sing kumbaya?" no I expect Optimus to not behave like a goddamn lunatic all the time and maybe don't have him go around cutting people's faces off and tearing their heads off with their spines intact. "If the Decepticons aren’t going to listen, they sealed their fates." you have no idea how completely fascistic this sounds, if the enemies don't listen to the heroes or listen to reason then they deserve to die and have no rights and should be treated like sub-human animals that deserve to be killed. That is not Optimus, if a Decepticon does not listen to reason, he is not gonna be the one to decide that they are worthy of only death. "Optimus isn’t a superhero." okay? So what? Also, he technically is a superhero in the same vein Captain America is. Both are soldiers who kill people but are still honorable and compassionate beings. And just because Optimus is not a superhero does not mean that he doesn't or shouldn't have a sense of honor and morality. "Hate to break it to you, this ain’t 1984 anymore. It ain’t war crimes if the bad guys are causing chaos." so it's okay for the heroes to commit war crimes if the villains do it? How does that make them any better than the villains they are fighting against. This is a problem with a lot of 80s and 90s comics about Anti-heroes, how writers begin portraying these figures as violent figures that are no different from the villains they sight against. "You need to learn to separate fantasy from reality. Grow up." Well, this isn't reality, it's a fictional story about giant robots. This is why I like Skybound Optimus so much, he is a compassionate being who was thrust into a war and hates the fact that he has to kill people. When he was fighting Skywarp, he gave him every chance to surrender when Bayverse Prime wouldn't. He would knock him down and execute him on the spot.
I totally agreed with you they're were so many things wrong with the bayverse but hopefully rise of the beasts blows eveyone away with faithful admiration for the source material.
Revenge is a good thing. If you are permissive people claim it is their right to kill kids. Weakness attracts challenge. Vlad Dracula was a very cruel ruler but there was no thieving in his country. What people like you hate about violent men is their ability to control. But we need someone to control the evil people of the world. Forgiveness is not a right, it is a gift and one that must be rarely given. That means that Optimus is not wrong for seeking revenge. If you dont want justice coming after you then dont do any evil.
@@RetrospectGreg That is called not having a refutation or being unable to respond. It is simple. When you fear the dark you get out of it as soon as possible after turning off the light in the basement. similarly if you fear what good man will do to you when you do evil you will try harder to not do that evil so that those good men stay away from you. What you are saying is the innocent should not be protected so that we can virtue signal as nice guys to evil people. You are dumb for taking your morality from comic books instead of the bible. In comic books if batman kills the joker after his first murder then that means the joker will only appear in two issues and there will be no more comics to sell. Revenge is bad for business. Money is the reason "heroes" dont kill bad guys. Batman's and Optimus' purpose is NOT to protect people but to make money for the publishers. Tooth for tooth, eye for an eye will stop the cash flow. Grow up.
I agree with you, however Bayverse Optimus doesn’t just enact justice- lines like “give me your face” lean into sadism and that’s not something Optimus would ever say imo
I think he stays true to his character but characters change overtime. Optimus technically has always been violent or never shys away from action and does what he thinks is right but never relishes in it. Yes there is fan service but if you look at the overall context of how humans have treated and betrayed autobots and then post death he became more violent. He's not a pacifist but when dealing with human politics cant really interject as he did the 90s since that has more to do with transformer politics.
Ngl Movie Optimus is WAYYYYYYY more badass because of his angry mannerisms. I understand if people can find that bad if it's overused but with the right amount, it makes my absolute favorite characters in fiction. Guts from Berserk, Eren Jeager from Attack On Titan and so so many more, that I didn't mention because it would be way too long for this comment and because I find these my favorites ever
5:30 the fact is that yes it’s kinda out of character for Optimus to act like that but at the end you would have to understand that there is character growth on how the movies are made and honestly who doesn’t get out of character when your in a war between life and death and as much as you wanna keep the peace sometimes you got to do what you have to do, in the end the bay verse was not bad maybe some things weren’t executed right but nothing really was wrong because it’s a realistic view in live action and if you jst go based off comics then where is the feel of reality when you watch these movies, you wanna go to to a theater and watch these movies and at the end feel like this could actually be a reality and not some made up fantasy
I convinced the third movie was suppose to be “Dark Side of the Moon”, but because of Pink Floyd album copyright, they changed it last second. They even referenced the album in the movie.
I personally understand bay optimus cuz it feels much more realistic than g1's everyone's good, cheesy and stuff like dont get me wrong wholesome optimus is great but he is in the middle of a war where friends and innocents have died! In T2, well prime did literally trashtalk the decepticons in the whole forest battle so I'll give you that, + give me your face was really odd to say, but TF3 s optimus is completely reasonable, Shockwave killed Jolt, and Sentinel killed autobots in the Nest base AND Iron Hide, one of prime's closest friends, screw if sentinel was beaten up he killed his own brothers he doesn't deserve any of that wholesome prime, besides bcs of sentinel numerous humans died for no reason. TF4 prime well... all his friends died (or almost) wich would taint anyone's faith in humanity like cmon.. TF5 is, uh, under mind control so doesn't count i guess?
Basically, the narratives of the films are set up in a way it’s nearly impossible for prime to be consistent with his portrayals. Ultimately post TF1 bay prime stands for nothing, he’s not worthy of the title honestly.
