Whats better? Bookshelf speakers with a sub or floorstanding speakers? | For Beginner Audiophiles 

I'm pretty sure the reason most people clicked on this video is to try to determine what is the right speakers for them, no?

I'm sorry to say, that your arguments are very flawed. To make it clear from the begginning: I think, everything you say is due to your observations, that reflect what most brands are doing. Taste is subjective, I will not argue there. Since most brands do - from a technical point of view - suboptimal things, this is not how reality actually is, just how you most likely percive it. If you are interested in expanding your horizon with speakers not aiming for wife acceptance or as a status symbol but for audio reproduction, I highly suggest to check out PA and Studio gear (especially Neumann + Genelec) Yes, a good subwoofer will extend any system, even fullrange ones, BUT! they also allow you, to buy bookshelfs that are not focusing on bass. You can easily get away with 80-100Hz low limit for those (instead the more common 40-60Hz), when using a sub. This opens possibilities, because limitations on the Mid/Midbass chassis are lifted and you can chose from a much wider range of speakers. (Physically speaking you also push the possible crossover for mid/high up a notch and that can have a major impact). Furthermore setting up a sub individually in the room can be a HUGE advantage because you can utilize good positions for your fronts and bass individually. Also you will get a higher headroom for roomcorrection. The overall volume is mainly limited by the highs/tweeters, which do not allow for multiple drivers to boost volume without huge drawbacks. There are much more important specs than amount of speakers. Just look at basically any PA Setup. Even small Sub/Sat systems, getting very loud, louder than most Hifi-stuff. They achieve this by going high db/W in general and big where it matters: bass. This has much more to do with construction choices for the speakers, than size. I do have very capable hifi bookshelfs that are build with chassis more custom to the PA region. They can go pretty low, they are pretty loud with low power(90dB/W, louder than heck of a lot floorstanding ones) and also are capable of some beating, resulting in a high max volume. Even higher, when using a sub. Yes, you can get louder with more radiating surface, but the real challange is to get a consistent combination. Btw even without sacrificing good sound quality. Of course you won't get a pinpoint soundstage from most of these speakers (not their goal) but I would take a LD Dave 12 or 15 to a comparison of hifi speakers to 1k and they probably wouldn't do bad. Going with acutal studio gear, even this is not a concern, those usually just won't go as loud and match the sound most people are used to as good. Soundstage: 1. The human is pretty much incapable of differentiating sound vertically. So if anything you would get different room responses from hall, which are due to differences in construction choices, not booksheld or floorstanding. 2. Horizontal Soundstage: One of the best stages I have ever heard, was from a floorstanding (in your words inferior in this case) speaker with one fullrange chassis. Again, the construction has much more influence here. Driver coherency: Many chassis are harder to do. Yes, this is true for most floorstanding speakers, but again, construction. There are 1 Way floorstanding and 3 Way Bookshelf speakers. Active driving makes a huge difference, 2wBookshelf+Sub or half active floorstanding both can benefit immensly. So again: Contstruction over format. Cabinet resonating: Again, construction choices. Dividing chambers, stabilizing resonating areas, all these are options. There is probably more, but I want to focus on one last thing: You start with one question and than don't even consider one option. Disregarding the sub is an option, but a very bad one! (See arguments on speaker choices, room influences, positioning, volume...) Instead going bookshelf vs floorstanding is obviously comparing two very different things, that aim at very different goals, while going bookshelf+sub vs floorstanding usually both have very similar goals. You also send your budget into a different direction. Of course investing nothing into good bass will free money for better mid+high. But to achieve the same goal with adding a sub later, you go up a bracket of possibly thousands €/$, where, and this is the most important part, some of it will be wasted. You don't want to go without any bass in the beginning, so there will be something already covered before buying a sub, which makes this obsolete. Not considering tastes, from a purely technical point of view (hifi-reproduction, going to more extremes like high volume or low bass), bookshelf+sub is superior in basically every way. (and active>passive)

One thing seldom talked about is "scale" which I think is important to fidelity. Large drivers on a big baffles generate a large wave launch (much the way real instruments do) that interact with the room differently than small point source radiators. Pin point imaging is less important to my listening habits. All other parameters being equal I prefer the larger sound generated by big panel speakers and speakers with large woofers, and multiple drivers. Good as mini monitors can be in many ways they still sound like toy versions of the real thing to me because they don't reproduce the big sound that I think is important to reproducing a life like musical event. This may be why at audio trade show when people are asked to vote for the best sound at the show, they more often vote for the ones featuring very large speakers.

@@socksumi Larger speakers also have more diffraction effects, due to the larger cones themselves in woofers and also baffle areas. In addition, the transient response of larger drivers can be less precise, and the cones themselves have more flex points, as well as intermodulation effects. For overall "big time" sound effect speakers with larger drivers (and more of them) will have some advantages, but there are sacrifices as well. An alternative often not discussed is add a second pair of the same smaller speakers along with a second amp, and have two per stereo channel. Then spread these out a bit on each side to widen the soundstage even more.

​@@stevefisher8323 What I am referring to to is the larger wave launch of drivers with a large surface area. This emulates closer the wave launch of actual musical instruments which are almost never point sources but objects of substantial size... such as the resonating body of a guitar or a piano sound board. The larger wave launches emitted by large drivers on large baffles interact with room acoustics (and the human ear) differently than do point sources. The result is a larger or scaled up sound that I find more akin to live instruments. If I listen to a Steinway grand piano on as speaker such as the Tannoy Westminster Royal or an Altec Model 19. it sounds more true to the scale of the actual piano than it ever could on any number of mini monitors which, as focused and detailed as they may be, still sound like toy versions of the actual piano simply because they lack scale. "Scale" is a seldom talked about quality of loudspeakers that is often overlooked... but in my opinion is very a important aspect of musical realism. Check out the offerings of Kenrick Sound of Japan and his re-manufacturing of enormous JBL Studio speakers from decades back. He is a firm believer in this sound "scale" and achieves it in no uncertain terms in his products. While they may not image as precisely as do mini monitors they sound more true to life in typical listening environments. Their impressive realism is due to many factors but significant among them is the size of the drivers and baffles.

That's how everyone does it nowadays.

I like your style.

That's the way to do it!

Yep acoustic treatment is more important!

Yes, your listening room must be custom designed to eliminate those pesky standing waves.

Got lucky and found some quality stands for super cheap and speakers that would've been a couple of grand for cheap also but I live in an area with alot of old people who have the ability to get rid of stuff like that

Monoprice makes some excellent and reasonably priced stands.

Plus if you have bookshelf speakers on stands, it's only a matter of time until a kid or a pet or a drunk person knocks one over.

Can u recommend anything with a budget of $700? This is including a floor standing speaker and subwoofer plus wut ever amps I need. Kind of new to speakers stuff and I need recommendations. Watched one of his vids and he recommended the Polk t50 but that was 4 years ago so I'm hesitant. I also have a small room.

He's all about the unfiltered content.

You bi or tri amped? At which point did you include a crossover to choose which frequencies went to which speakers?

@@pzboyz72 My large tower Mains already contained all of those drivers and so each driver already crossed over. Therefore I only needed to crossover the Mains with the Dual Subs, for which I used a preamp processor. Choosing the right crossover point for the Mains to Subs (my choices were 30 hz thru 120 hz at 10 hz increments) went like this. First I tried elevating the Mains. 30 hz helped, but 40 hz set them free (i.e. They played with utter ease even at very high volumes). I then tried 50 hz and nothing really to gain. So then I turned to the Subs. Playing around with a TON of placement options (we're talking 2+ months). Then anytime I felt that I had a worthwhile Sub placement (both Subs that is), I would try them with the Mains at both a 40 and 50 hz crossover. I settled on Subwoofer placements that had me flat to 16 hz (down only -3 dB at 10 hz), but more importantly had a bit of a dipped around 40 hz (my Mains always had a nasty peak at 40 hz +7 dB). So with a 40 hz crossover (-3 dB at 40 hz) plus the Subs together dipping slightly around 40-ish, I finally had tamed my worst Bass peak. F.Y.I. I had no EQ at the time so hence all the playing around with Subwoofer(s) placement, and hence me adding the 3rd Sub in order to obtain an even flatter Frequency response. Ps. Waiting for the Emotiva units to offer Dirac (EQ), which will also do 3 Subs correctly (9.3.4 is what I am planning).

Floorstanders from Andrew Jones (elac adante, etc) have the pros of BOTH bookshelves and floorstanders AND blend with a sub a whole lot better than any bookshelf. I have adante speakers blended in with a rythmik sub at 16 to 40hz. It really comes down to the designer's competence. With Andrew Jones, you can have your cake and eat it too. As far as footprint is concerned, a bookshelf on a stand consumes the same footprint as a floorstander. You are NOT saving any space.

@@kohnfutner9637 My above mentioned setup is for 2.1 channel music for the scrutinizing ear, where i use a blend and NOT a crossover with a servo controlled sealed fast rythmik sub. For movies of course, it's a different more forgiving ball game. I have a 5.2 setup with 2 HSU ported subs (dsp/crossover) that can boom boom boom chest thumping bass all day long! (Could give granpa boomer a heart attack, the way it oughta be). Careful blending of a sub for music is a very difficult process.

You do not need a sub with floorstanders

I'm a basshead & I APPROVE of this message. In other words, I politely disagree w El34. That is, can bass be achieved with floorstanders? Sure, I mean, I guess. Can it be its own, completely non-localized and crossed over sound, adding soul to the music? Not to these ears. Here again: basshead + NOT an audiophile. Plus I revisit Techmaster PEB from time to time. And floors simply can NOT achieve what I'm looking for. Like, ever. So far.

I built a set of tri trix TL tower speakers from parts express and aded a $100 dayton 10 inch powered sup to a $400 onkyo theater amp which i listen to just music at the moment. I adjusted the eq and the speakers really came alive. They sound great by ear but i am a beginner and have no idea what they should sounds like. I do know without adjusting the eq settings they were pretty flat without the sub. They sound good to me now are definitely loud (i love loud but no one else does) but if you listen to some Edm/dance they will start to distort at real high volume but realistically you would not listen to them at near max. Overall i am happy with the setup seeing as it cost about 1 grand..... the speakers i built are probably equivalent to 800-1000$ towers. These fill up the whole basement for sure, you can feel the sound in the pool table if you crank em.

Alex Blaska Good job. I’m very familiar with Parts Express and the Dayton Audio line they distribute. All good value and performing equipment. They are a bit different from a decade ago when I was building speakers myself. They used to carry very high-end drivers such as Scan-Speak. They still carry nice stuff but not as esoteric as before. I have multiple systems where one may have two subs, one may have one sub, and another may have no sub. I’m a major advocate of subs and going without. My main system has no sub: Magnepans powered by a Mark Levinson solid stare power amp sourced by a custom class A tube amp and modest DAC with wifi/bluetooth. How did the TriTrix build go? Easy? Hard?

Another option: Active bookshelf speakers. DSP will allow for much greater bass extension and a generally flatter frequency response in the room, if designed well.

Why

Cheers, John!

Agreed; Dual SVS PB 1000’s for $950 = cheap thrills + your speakers of choice

2.2 is far superior

Cheers!

Bookshelf speakers with the SB-1000 is just a perfect match. Such a compact sub with amazing performance. I use Elac B6.2. Do you let the speakers run full-range and just blend the sub's crossover?

@@brydon10, I blend near 60hz using a Marantz SR7002 receiver. Audessy settings (near flat)

@@AverageNiceGuy Ah, nice. I'm running speakers full range and blend the SB-1000 also ~55-60hz. Sounds fantastic. I use an NAD C 326BEE. No room calibration or anything.

@@brydon10 nice! 😎

@@brydon10, yep, I like it when "flat" sounds good 😀

You did very good for adding the power amp to the Sony Towers they are very power hungry ! 6-ohms at 145 watts but once you give them good clean power Ohh my, Even my Marantz AVR on its own didn't have the ⚡To drive the Sony SS-CS3 correctly, so i used the Front Pre-Outs from my Marantz AVR to the Emotiva BasX A-300 2 ch amp to drive them and what a huge difference !! 🌙 and day

@@tee-jaythestereo-bargainph2120 Thank you very much for your comment! The BasX A-300 is an awesome amp!

@@hi-fihaven2257 Yes it is an awesome amp espically for budget price point , I have sent Emotiva many emails to send Sean some audio gear his way, but Emotiva doesn't reply back to my emails, anymore ohh well , Sean knows i have the A-300 all he has to do is say send my way and the amp would be sent right to him ! 😆

Applies to music and many other things in life too.

SWD exactly, that’s my current dilemma with My tower speakers.

"Many subs (and some amps) have high pass filters that allow the bookshelf speakers to play just as loud as floor standers. " Er... no. On avarage, a floorstander will play slightly louder. Because they have 1) more efficiency and 2) more power handling.

Hi SWD, in a small room what (maximum) lower frequency would you suggest for a bookshelf speaker - if pairing with a sub(s) to help fill in the lower end? Thanks.

Bookshelfs could play as loud as floorstanders... but playing fewer frequencies.

Then you'll love "analysis paralysis". :)

Here’s a suggestion: Polk is phasing out its RTI tower speakers which are beautiful with a curved cherry wood veneer and sound fantastic. You can get them on sale for around $800 per pair (I bought mine for $1450).

The people who say that size doesn't matter are lying to themselves. :D

Krikstar123 as the muscle car guys say...theres no replacement for displacement!!

@@ZeroFidelity yeah well unless you live in a Japanese apartment. With your kids and wife.

I still prefer the cubic inches tucked away. Generally better coherency too.

Ps I actually ended up buying LARGER speakers than before. Haha ;-) Those Klipsch RP-8000F's are amazing! :-)

If you have not already, do you best to listen to the speakers first if they are on the expensive side. Even if you have to travel to hear them. Do not trust anyone else's ear. Take as long as you need to make your decision. And buy the speaker that sounds the best to you even if they are expensive. They can last a lifetime and you will be glad you did.

@@walteredwards2683 Thanks for the good advice! I wound up buying and putting together a bookshelf speaker kit from CSS Audio and have been extremely pleased with it. Like you said, it looks like they will last me a good long while :)

updates please

@@mustardman2035 Hi, I purchased ns-b951 + two ysw-315 subs with two custom made stands and man its awesome. I plugged the ports of bookshelves and tuned the sub filter to around 80hz. if you need some photos just let me know.

False: speakers should take up at least 10% of any dorm room space.

@@jdlech Make that 25%

@@QoraxAudio And a minimum 175% of one's hearing capacity.

@@jdlech Jup, volume can work counterproductive upon the human ear 😆

@@QoraxAudio Once one has destroyed one's hearing, one can claim all efforts to improve sound quality is a scam because none of it works.

You are absolutely right. And size matters too

Depends on distance. 3 ways don't image as well, and on top of it if you're in a near field distance 3 ways can sound jumbled

What brand of bookshelves have V shape? Focal? Wharfedale? Dali?

Yep.

@@ZeroFidelity I had no doubt Sean you felt the same, you're a sharp guy my friend!

All the things: YES please.

That is my dream setup!

@@ronzack4572 I haven't heard a lot of hi fi but definitely the best I've heard thus far.