You want to know why they loosing money? Look at dispatch availability and the quality of their fleet. What important is not how many planes you have, but what kind of planes you have. If your plane breaks every other day and it takes days to fix it you not going to make any money on it. Bunch of old, busted, high time Beechjets that falling apart and out of production for almost a decade, some of them getting so tired they actually being parted out and their parts used to keep the rest of them running. Even more busted and old Citations of different models. Almost everything in their fleet except for the King Airs that they bought brand new is obsolete or almost obsolete. They bought bunch of junk and trying to keep this mess running. Another problem is that the customers don't want to fly in this kind of planes anymore, they go some place else. This is like trying to run a limo company in 2023 with a fleet of some random, high mileage, 20 years old cars.
Worse place to work at, at the last 5 yrs. Worked there 9yrs, last 5 yrs suffered from poor mgmt whom are oblivious on how not to operate a airline, let alone know about fleet management. With 50% fleet availability is considered fine; pathetic...
Also, while the CEO was making ridiculous money, the pilots were getting paid less than their competitors and even regional airlines. With the hiring going on at the majors, even if they somehow survive they soon wont have pilots to fly them. No bucks no buck rogers.
The same reason corporations can’t find workers now it’s not because they don’t want to work it’s because CEOs and the big bosses take too much money out of the company and choose not to pay their workers what they are worth. Now you see the results. Chinese junk proliferates our markets.
I can tell you. - high cost of training pilots (that leave before cost is recouped). - high cost of paying pilots to be close to avg wage. - scheduling issues due to high pilot turnover. - Sales dept over-promising services. - Infuriating clients by failing to meet promised services causing them to leave. - lost profits due to paying 3rd party 135 ops to fill in flights they have booked by have no plane or crew for. - unhappy staff from getting yelled at by unhappy customers for poor service. Basically poor business practices.
Bingo!...In addition to all of that, I would bet my last nickel that "other" costs have increased. Landing fees, Hangar space, Ramp fees, Maintenance away from base, De-icing, Flight attendant on larger aircraft, and Catering. A few peanut butter sandwiches ordered for the clients in OKK is one thing, but order those same items in PSP, or HPN and the credit card will melt! There is NOTHING "low cost" in aviation!
I was an operator. The amount of flights we covered for wheels up was huge. The member would book an Excel for instance, they’d put that on the board, once the client sends over passenger information, we’d run into performance issues and would need a fuel stop, or we’d have to do it in a larger jet. Other times the client would refuse a fuel stop and their sales team most likely would have to get a super mid at a higher price. Now do this thousands of times a year and you get a bankruptcy.
I used to fly for Delta Private Jets. The second the rumors Wheels Ip was buying us I bailed. Glad I did too. The quality of life at DPJ was great for 8/6 on the Excel. But once WU bought ‘em…. Gone.
There are thousands of Air charter companies that have been around for many decades, I work for one that has been around since early 70's and still going strong (because its a mom and pop company).
6:20 netJets has revenue of over $300 billion a year? Not sure what number he meant but it certainly caught my attention. A quick Google search shows $2.7 billion revenue last year.
Mark was very informative, great interview and insight into Wheels Up! Their customers deserve better. Can’t say how many times I’ve stepped into an FBO to see stranded Wheels Up Customers.
Well done interview. Fugazi business model from day 1....Covid was the best thing that could have ever happened to the scheme....use your credits before the covenants kick-in!!!!
There is NO CEO in the United States worth more than 2 million. That’s what’s wrong with our country. That’s why we’re going down that spitter every single day.
6 years ago I had an interview with the Chief Pilot, when I asked about the business model of the company he would not elaborate. I decided not to join them. I think I made the right decision.
Seems to me the lenders/investors should have taken a look at Mr. Dichter's compensation to begin with before pouring money in. He may be the only one who made money out of this debacle.
Seems like a fellow who knows his stuff. I'm a retired airline pilot, now part 91 dog, flying around a private client on a very part time basis, for something to do. IMHO, the part about how Delta should be, "very very concerned," that these folks will start buying first class tickets on Delta for 20% off is misguided. Consider the premium the majors get for a first class seat. 20% off is still a shit ton of money to get someone from point A to point B. I think Delta will take that deal all day long. After what Delta did to some of their people in bankrupcy, believe me, I'm no defender or apologist. Just sayin'...they'll be fine, and if they do step in and buy Wheels Up, it will be because they see an opportunity in a fire sale, not because they are worried about taking a hit on a few first class seats.
amazing incredible .sad... how fast it gone downhill... luv their B350 KA beautiful white blue livery.. talked to lot their pilots back 3 yrs ago.. was on up up and Up...pretty happy their job What happened rly? What happens w other small fractionals like FlexJet next? JetLinx ok still ?
I know this is after the fact, Clark. But if the woman gave you access to that personal information, she would have 'probably' provided you children or relative contact information, if she had any. Nothing wrong with going the extra step. But you still did good.
Very good interview. Yes it starts at the top. It needs good teams from flight despatch to the ground operations, I just wonder. Were they paying the pilots peanuts in a very competive market. There seems to be a lot of underlying problems.
The king airs weren't making money before the rest of the operations were brought together. The citation Xs are old and cost more to run. Ditto the beech jets.
Unfortunately Wheels Up bought a British world wide charter company Air Partner. They have a program called charter + where you deposit $ in an account & just call them for a charter. I was going to use that service but I am in investments & saw their recent income statement. They are burning thru cash very quickly they could file bankruptcy any time & you would lose the $ on deposit. Heavens knows if you were on a charter flight & they went out of business.what would happen!
One thing I do not understand. Aircraft leasing companies make money owning and leasing aircraft at a profit, yet it’s considered a money loser for companies that lease the aircraft to own the aircraft? I’m not doubting both things can be true, but I’m curious why.
It's tough to make a profit when you are buying brand new 4.5 M. King Airs and renting seats. Even Netjets looses big money when they do not own the airplane
I'm a prime example of what's wrong with WheelsUp. Poor experiences over the past 2 years. I have $70K remaining on deposit, and I'm going to use them ASAP. My NetJets fractional interest in a Latitude is expected to be ready by October....
@maynard623 happy to detail the post experiences. Missed my Niece's graduation (and so did my Niece, almost) because at 8:00 the night before our flight, WheelsUp called to inform me that our aircraft was out of service. I asked for a substitution (of any size) and was told no. Fortunately my Niece and her parents had enough notice to wake up at 3:00 AM and drive. 2nd bad experience (about 1 month later) was that we were picked up in a 1970 Lear 60. The seats would not move at all, so I was crammed against the wall for the 3 hour flight. Aircraft was not provisioned at all, so water only. No snacks, no beverages other than water. NetJets has NEVER disappointed me this way. I'm OK if you want to consider me a snob. I'm confident in about what I speak. Have a nice life.
@Andrew Chooljian your story is a great example of bad their service has become. Just way to big way to fast. I'll bet money that Lear 60 wasn't associated with wheels up but they had to contract out the charter to another smaller company just to keep up. Even their larger types like the Cit X while fast are not reliable. It's like trying to charter people around the country in a racecar. To many acquisitions to fast. They bought companies in every region that were small but profitable thinking it would expand their reach but changed everything that made those companies profitable. Wheels Up should have stuck with their niche on the east coast and expanded with slower growth across different regions and maybe they would have found success. I don't question their safety however. The individual maintenance bases really pride themselves on their work and would never send out an aircraft they didn't feel was safe which part of why they are losing money. The old types they fly require a lot of TLC.
Misleading advertising and poor reliabily / service in a customer segment where the entire POINT is that you are paying a TON for a reliable good experience that gets you there on time. Watch how anxious a member looks in the FBO when the flight is not even on airport one hour AFTER it should have been there - especially if they have friends and family with them!! It's brutal and if you fly FBO you'll see this.
60M a month with 380M in the bank doesn't put them out of business in 3.5 months as he says. Let's do the math. 380M/60 is over 6 months. He even goes as far to see 3.5 months is the optimum scenario. Did he never learn how to do simple division? Is he assuming a massive ramp in the burn rate (100% higher than it is now) because he doesn't state that.
@@teamvigod OK I need to clarify. We did this interview in mid-May. At the end of Q1 UP had $363M cash. So let's assume the burn rate continues. By mid-May this number would have been $270M. $125M is indeed the loan covenant on the aircraft. So unless the burn rate is reduced, they blow through the loan covenant in two months and are out of cash in four.
Big mistake to buy king airs. 8 million dollars and an affront to any kind of sophistication. You can get Embraer 300 for similar price. One is a cool private jet, the other is a trump voting texan on a ranch. The contrast could hardly be more pronounced. It's bizarre that turboprops sell.
It is all about the right tool for the job. Turboprops are good for short hops at low altitudes. They are far more efficient at the lower altitudes than turbojets and turbofans. Turbojets and turbofans are more efficient and faster at much higher altitudes. But, high altitudes are impractical for short hops. The only reason to fly a turbojet or a turbofan for short hops and lower altitudes is to flex and show off. If image is more important than actual business, go all jets.
@@deanfowlkes now try thinking on your own. LA to SF is only 560km, do they fly turboprops on this route or jets? are you going to bother with an 8 million dollar airplane for trips shorter than that? turboprop planes should not exist. Sam Williams of Williams engines never produced turboprops because he knew turbofans would take over. And here we are 50+ years later still suffering turboprops and pistons. Rolls Royce Trent XWB is the most efficient large turbofan engine around and it doesn't have gearing. They are working on a geared next generation with very large fan that could be compared to a turboprop and they think they can only get about 10% improvement by going to 15:1 bypass and gearing. So it's not like turboprops are worlds apart in efficiency, even best case. They are simply never worth it. Jet money for indiana jones prop experience. And indeed, done right, jets could be quite inexpensive because it's a rather simple engine.
@@DanFrederiksen - Thanks for thinking for me. A lot of what you are pontificating is theory. In real life, you have to back up thinking with doing. KLAX to KSFO is 304 Nautical Miles using the SERFR4 RNAV Arrival. That is not a short hop. I have taken shorter hops as a passenger in turboprops. As have many people when the speed of driving is inadequate. As a matter of fact, much shorter hops happen every single day in the scheduled carrier, charter, corporate, and private aviation industries. As far as the question of should they exist, they do exist. So, in real world applications, do you use the tools available? Or, do you wait around for a tool to be created? WHEN more highly efficient turbofan small aircraft (not just the engine) are created, the shift will come to using those aircraft. However, by that time, short hop transportation will probably be taken over by eVTOL aircraft with future, high efficiency batteries. This would make the aforementioned small turbofan aircraft obsolete. You could argue that they shouldn’t exist at all. Your comment about piston engines being obsolete is Just Plane Silly (shout out to Bryan Turner). Without piston engines, there would be no pilots, literally. Besides pilots with a very rich uncle, I would wager that you can not name one pilot who has started out their aviation journey flying a turbofan. When a less than $100k certified piston aircraft can cruise with a fuel burn rate as low as 5 gallons per hour, using piston engines is a no brainer. There is not much thought necessary. Eventually, they will be replaced by electric motors. But, not today.
