I had a thought that something called Player Elimination could also be the actual most extreme option for the table: "If you die in the game, you die in real life."
Fabula ultima has one of my favourite versions of script immunity, if a PC goes down in combat, they cant get back up until the fight is over, and they have to make consequences on their character traits that affect how they are roleplayed, giving them self doubt they aren't good enough to fulfil their goals, their morals are warped by a hit to their ego or a desire of revenge. There is still optional permanent death, but the rules give specific conditions before you can opt in, which prepare the players ahead of time to envision how their character could die so they'd be ready for it.
I like that this still gives "you went down in combat" some real weight and meaning. It's got teeth even if your character isn't being eliminated from play. Maybe especially because they aren't being eliminated.
I feel like Star Trek Adventure’s supporting characters really needed to be mentioned in this video. Created and leveled during play anytime a player’s main character is not around for a scene (“Captain! You cannot go on the away mission! Is not the 23rd century anymore!”), they end up being well-known, developed, connected, and well-liked, and are perfect when you need a new main.
Thinking about how you'll handle death when it happens is really so important; it can do so much to strengthen a story, but the first few times I encountered it I floundered, either killing the pacing of the game by dumping the players into a scenario where their desire to continue the adventure was in conflict with their desire to play together, or killing its stakes as I tried to backpedal. All that could've been avoided if I had just sat down ahead of time and taken a few minutes to think "Okay, if the players fail, how do I keep that engaging?"
Troupe style play sounds like a great way to "trick" my PCs into a series of one shots that are actually connected. They don't like doing long form campaign stuff. Long as in more than three sessions.
I usually prefer not actually making backup characters, purely for the reason that if I have a character that I'm excited about waiting in the wings I become less invested in my current character, or at least don't care as much about them dying. I encourage my players as well to not make backup characters for the same reasons. I found most character changes didn't come from death, but players simply wanting to try out their new character. Now, I want players to be excited about their characters, and not just feel stuck with them, which is why I work with them to create characters that will be fun to play for a long campaign, and make it clear to them that they should try their best to make a character they won't get bored with. However, if they do have a backup character then I have found they are much more likely to get bored with the one they are playing (though this is mostly witnessed from games where I wasn't the DM). I don't think there is anything wrong with making backup characters, it can be a big time save for a lot of people, but I just wanted to offer an alternative perspective.
That's a good perspective! And it's always good to remember that different techniques will be the best fit for different campaigns, different players, different games, and different situations!
My first public DMing last summer, I ran Tomb of the Serpent King, using O.S.E., and had everyone grab or make two characters B/X style characters. 7 players and 14 P.C.s. When they got to the dungeon sight, they cracked the seal, and prayed to the gods for protection, then each player had a P.C. left behind, helping with the campfire (coming out of a cold dungeon, the hot water helps with losing execution points) and protects the crawling parties rear. So each player had a character that could die and a replacement would join after the death. They loved it. Had one kill and he got his character in quickly. In a campaign, I would have most PCs have some retainers that are to be a replacement.
@@TheAlexandrian Skerples likes to add sense perception, which is how I like to describe dungeon crawls. Most of the time without any light, it's always going to be cold, and smells and hearing intensify. Torches are limiting, and the dark remains the master even while torches are burning. Bring the lantern. I also do not do 1st level light spells. I put it in 2nd level and made it harder to cast.
Back in the AD&D 1e days, my character died near the end of module D3. So I had to sit out Q1... Of course, we were 14 at the time, and had only been playing RPGs for a year. After this experience, we hit upon the idea of multiple characters.
I've had a point in my campaign where the players ended up split up (they got stuck in the abyss at level 9 with no way back, the Wizard realized he could banish each of them and they'd go back to their home plane, but I ruled since the spell doesn't say, they would go to their birthplace which were spread far apart). Then we held one or a few sessions individually, with the other players that could play making temporary characters as guest stars. It was a really fun change of pace and provides backups they know how to play with existing ties to them that they can use if the worst hapens!
I just found your channel. And I already have your book. It’s invaluable for my DMing. But your channel is like the next step as having you explain things is sometimes so much better for me to implement something you’re talking about. Keep the videos coming and if you write another book I’ll be pre-ordering it lol. Thanks
I toyed with the idea of having a large cast of NPC that could work as followers for the PCs. Other adventurers from the same guild that worked on the same missions as the PCs but didn't cross their path too much. At the end of the series of adventures they also worked as the "cavalry" when they tried to put an end to the evil force that threatened the region.
I'm running a campaign with Script Immunity now, but the consequences for mechanical death are very disruptive, a PC who dies often experiences severe physical or mental injury that needs to be repaired, or their failure disrupts the plot in a dramatic way. So far I've kicked a barbarian off a cliff and broke his back, had a dragon rip off the arm of our fighter, and had a psionicist erase all magical ability from our wizard's mind. The barbarian retired and recently returned with mechanical spider legs, and the Wizard changed classes Inventor, while the fighter ended up retiring. This prevents the most common issue with script immunity: the lack of stakes. It also doesn't kick the player out entirely. I work with the player to rebuild the character, encouraging them to evolve the PC into something new or barring that, I allow them a graceful exit. It's also greatly increased the roleplaying potential for everyone. In-game funerals tend to be boring, while trying to rescue, comfort and rehabilitate an injured friend can be heartwarming or harrowing.
The way the people at my table solve this problem is that we are running two different parties, one that is currently 4th level and one that is 1st level. The two parties know of one another and are actively pursuing the same ends. If one of the fourth level characters die, the player has an alternate character near by to step in to fill the gap. As for the story, the first level party can follow up on threads the main 4th level party can't because they are needed elsewhere. It's actually working out pretty well, so far. It will probably be more difficult to integrate new characters into the story as the low level party advances---we'll see how that goes. I know in older styles of play, people frequently used henchmen in this way--there's someone the party knows and trusts who can step in if a PC dies. I've never found an elegant way to run henchmen without having to scale everything up to the point where wind up running a squad level tactical war game instead of a role playing game. I've never found an elegant solution for that--running two separate, interdependent parties is the closest I've come to it.
Henchmen definitely escalate scale! And, like you, I've found that they'll often become the onramp to large groups and, eventually, full domain play. Which is great if that's what you're looking for; much less so if it's not. You might find this video useful when they do crop up, though: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-RT1eAE-9n58.html
@@TheAlexandrianThanks much---I'll check it out. (A little while later) Thanks much again--that's an interesting concept. Player to the left--it's a worthy experiment.
Yeah, the conversations between Luke and Ghost Obi-wan would be very strange if they were both one player's characters. Also, the meta-gaming would be really hard to avoid. "Leia kisses you." "Ewww!" No, wait, I don't know she's my sister. I act smug.
I'm hoping to use a modified character trees from Dark Sun in a 5e Dark Sun game. The players all make 3 characters, I start the game in a meat grinder and dead characters sheets are piled up in the middle of the table and introduced in the conflict in the beginning until it comes to an end the players all should end up with 2 characters left in the aftermath and anyone with less draws from the dead sheets in the middle who are reworked to be background characters in the scene, and the people split the population of survivors to go in seperate directions as sort of refugees taking different paths to attempt survival. ever after the option to encounter your alternate when the players split the party, or in a death, or imprisonment. a different game when a players or two can't make a game, or players or dm need a more 'one shot' style game. you can do a flashback to the party split after the meat grinder. or events elsewhere during scenes in the main game. we can always add npcs to the stack of character sheets in the middle of the table and allow players to trade in characters at a narrative point in the story to exchange for their backup or adopted npcs.
One of my favorite hooks for backup PCs is the "too-late nemesis". You rush in as your last PCs arch nemesis just to find them dead. So, you stick around until you find a new worthy cause.
In the early days when magic was rare and death inevitable, the rest of the party would loot the dead character’s body. So the henchman came along to either protect their fallen liege or step up, take part in the looting and rise up to become a full fledged partner with the other player characters. Ah, the good old days of backstabbing reality.
@@shirro69I'll be honest, reading it and listening to it at the same time, pausing every so often to make a note or an observation is the best way to really absorb the information within---it's what I've been doing.
I'm so happy that you decided to go on RU-vid. I've been reading your gm 101 for years, and while I have not really been running games myself, it's very inspiring to read and listen to.
Just getting ready to fire this one up, I'm stoked. I tend to have my PCs exit stage left under their own power, I actively encourage my players to move on from a character when they feel that character has played their part. One of my dirtiest secrets is that I'll fudge things to hell and gone to support that, all while pretending that the PCs live in a dark and gritty world where death is cheap. Having said that, it also fosters a sense of purpose, and unfinished business is a hell of a story hook, ESPECIALLY when the next character is diametrically opposed to the previous in their goals. Some of the most fun I've ever had playing has been rolling up a new character that wants to spend time undoing what my last character was doing. So if the players are amenable, I try and give them that same opportunity. I think the final thing I'll say is that, for me, it's more a sense of when the dice have gone against you, rather than a mechanical "your HP is zero, you failed your death saves, you're dead". This is ephemeral, and you've gotta have the right players that vibe with you about it, but I much prefer play where the dice have gone against you, your character is no longer yours to play. They belong to me now. It's neat as hell to be playing and have your old character show up, but they've moved on from the plot and have their own things going. They might help, they might hinder, and all that power you've spent so much time accumulating isn't under your control anymore. Of course, it was your character, and part of our tension was the Swords of Damocles I held over their heads. When it comes to weaknesses, fears and shames, you've got a fistful of cards to play. Very last actual final thing I'll say, they may be dead and gone, but maybe they aren't, and even though they've been doing the NPC thing for a while, all it takes is the right hook and they can ride again.
