When Beethoven Demolished The Symphony 

until stravinsky

@@darioramonetti1483 hmmm not many agree with this comment

True. Beethoven never gets old. Stravinsky once said (of the Grosse Fuga) that it "remains contemporary forever".

THIS

It largely depends on personal taste.

@@gaopinghu7332 Of course. No question about it.

Christmas carols never get old either speak for yourself lol

His recordings of Beethoven's symphonies are some of the best period instrument recordings of the symphonies that exist.

He's remarkably good at conducting 19th century music in general. Not bad at Stravinsky either.

@@themusicprofessor I find his Mendelssohn interpretations to be among the best too!

Not a fan of Bach?

@riverstun Yes I am. Love his keyboard concertos, and The art of the fugue is a time tested masterwork imo. How about yourself?

Absolutely right. It's really amazing.

You’re quite right in all you say, except it probably needs adding that the technique of building larger-scale movements from small motifs and fragments - often monothematic - is also a fundamental part of Haydn’s technique as well, and is clearly where the idea originates. Beethoven took different things from Mozart, but all that said, whatever he learned from his two great predecessors, as in the ‘Eroica’ symphony and almost every other work Beethoven published, he then did his own thing in his own way.

Well Haydn too...

Irony aside (it is impossible for us to imagine much about the early nineteenth century in my opinion) what you said so well dennisperson871 is probably true.

Great description!

Thank you so much! It's great to hear from fellow-composers, and Italy is the land of many wonderful composers!

Thank you for your support. We're trying our best!

It's true that he was indebted to JSB - he learned the 48 as a child (at a time when Bach's music was not commonly used as a teaching resource) and the influence is detectable throughout his life.

@@themusicprofessorAt age 12, Beethoven's teacher J. N. Neefe could trace back through his teacher's, teacher's, to J S Bach. F. J. Haydn owned a copy of the WTC, J S Bach's students taught from the WTC in turn and the students continued the distribution of manuscripts, Leipzig had a music publishing house that produced manuscript copies, and Mozart's "rival," Muzio Clementi (who Beethoven dubbed the "Father of the Piano" had been taught from the age of 11 (1763) onward from the WTC and Scarlatti Sonatas in England. Muzio Clementi eventually owned J C Bach's copy of the WTC Pt 2.

Beethoven’s use of harmony and counterpoint do not originate from JS Bach - at least not solely. Beethoven learned the basics from his Bonn teacher Neefe, and yes, he knew Bach’s 48, but it was when he moved to Vienna that he began more advanced counterpoint lessons first with Haydn, and then when he set off for his second trip to England, with Albrechtsberger. The importance of the formal lessons with Haydn have been clouded somewhat by Beethoven’s negative comments, but the integration of counterpoint into modern sonata-style music, and the building of large scale monumental movements based on the extensive working of small fragments - often using counterpoint - clearly derives from Haydn. In short, I don’t think you can elevate in importance any one of the composers listed above, over any of the others. In spite of his tetchy comments about his counterpoint teacher, Beethoven kept the 30 leaves of exercises done with Haydn to the end of his life: 247 exercises on 27 leaves are extant (3 leaves containing about another 25; are lost), and he sometimes went back to them. As with all the greatest composers, Beethoven noted much from every composer from whom he felt he could learn - JS Bach, Handel, CPE Bach, Mozart and Haydn, Cherubini, even Rossini…but then he did his own thing.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Well you are make some great points but also ignore some facts. Beethoven didn't just know the 48, his early reputation in Vienna came from playing for his patron Count van Swieten, although had Beethoven play the 48 to the wee hours of the morning, including a note to tell Beethoven to bring his night cap and bed clothes. The letter dates from 1794, when Beethoven was 23 years old: Monday, 15 December Herr Beethoven Alstergasse[46] No. 15 c/o Prince Lichnowsky If you are not hindered this coming Wednesday, I wish to see you at my home at 8:30 in the evening with your nightcap in your bag. Give me your immediate answer. Count van Swieten (who had been also C P E Bach's Patron and later Mozart and Haydn) as Court Librarian arranged to have the music J S Bach and Handel made available, including the Art of Fugue, which the count had similarly provided scores (and an arrangement of the Messiah) for W. Mozart. Beethoven also studied The Essay on the True Art of Keyboard Playing of C P E Bach (and this publication Beethoven required a young Carl Czerny , worked out the lessons, played and was influenced by his Sonatas. Beethoven studied Johann Joseph Fux's book on counterpoint Gradus ad Parnussum (a contemporary of J S Bach, who also owned a copy in Fux's work, studied also by Mozart, in his library) and kept a condensed version of Gradus of the rules he made on his person. Antonio Salieri, another of Beethoven's teachers (primarily vocal music in Italian) with an irregular schedule for their lessons, and met regularly for many years to come of which Beethoven dedicated to Salieri his violin sonatas op. 12. (1799). Yes, Mozart and Haydn were influences, but Beethoven at the suggestion of Haydn (who with other duties was planning a second trip to England) studied with Albrectsberger (which you mentioned), who lays a greater claim and the second most important teacher after Neefe. Johann Joseph Fux was the source of Albrectsberger's compositional style derives from the counterpoint of Johann Joseph Fux, who was Kapellmeister at St Stephen's Cathedral from 1713 to 1741; Albrechtsberger later held the same position. Contrary to Haydn, with whom he was disappointed and often aired his frustrations (Beethoven became infuriated when his work and lessons was not being given attention or corrected), the only negative remark can be found regarding Albrechtsberger from Beethoven was his being a musical pedant and some of his compositions musical skeletons. Albrectsberger gave Beethoven lessons in counterpoint, followed by imitation, choral fugue, double and triple counterpoint of which 160 exercises survive. Beethoven crowned Muzio Clementi as "The Father of the Piano." Beethoven, "'They who thoroughly study Clementi, at the same time make themselves acquainted with Mozart and other composers; but the converse is not the fact.' According to composer Curtis Lindsay, "Beethoven’s early-to-middle-period sonatas recall Clementi more reliably than they do Haydn or Mozart, particularly where structure and transition are concerned." Which is natural as Beethoven grew up playing Clementi. Consequently, Clementi provided a portion of the inspiration for Beethoven’s piano sonatas. In Viena, Beethoven often played Clementi sonatas and often a volume of them was on his music stand, and used them in his lessons for Carl Czerny, who similarly used these Sonatas (and Beethoven's) with his students including Franz Liszt. Beethoven met Clementi, and later arranged with Clementi to publish compositions with the firm which Clementi owned and run with Longerip in London. Haydn possessed a manuscript copy of the WTC, Clementi between the ages of 11 or 12 to 21 study the WTC and Scarlatti in England, (and Clementi's student John Field when he debuted in Paris accompanied by his teacher, played the 48 from memory), Count van Swieten introduced Mozart (who arranged Fugues for string ensembles). J S Bach's Harmony had a greater influence than given credit. Beethoven's introduction to counterpoint and the harmony began with Neefe and the 48 at age 12 which laid the foundation to which he later built upon. Cherubini was Beethoven's favorite Church Composer, but Cherubini was more interested in Palestrinia counterpoint than J S Bach.

@@Renshen1957 Thank you for a thoughtful and interesting reply, I would actually argue with very little here, in fact to the point that I would suggest that you might have misunderstood some my own comments. Just to clarify: I clearly stated that Beethoven knew the 48 from his time at Bonn, and was aware of the importance of Baron (sic) van Swieten’s early music curiosity concerts in Vienna, though whether having Mozart waste his time orchestrating Handel oratorios, or getting Beethoven to play through the Bach preludes and fugues, and other of the Baron’s whims is a questionable use of their time. CPE Bach and his Versuch - and the associated sonatas - were hugely important; they were the basis of modern (ie post-Baroque) keyboard playing, and was clearly very well-known to Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, and almost everyone else. Your comments on Fux also did not offer anything new, it was clearly the 18th century counterpoint bible and used by every composer we have both mentioned. (From my researches, I believe now that Mozart in the 1780’s during the time when he developed a real interest in counterpoint, borrowed Haydn’s heavily annotated copy - the same one used for the lessons with Beethoven - besides the other examples mentioned in his letters). A proper assessment of the Haydn/Beethoven counterpoint lessons has always been clouded by Beethoven’s virtually unchallenged and very well-known negative comments, backed up by some very doubtful, spurious, non-contemporaneous sources of varying degrees of unreliability, often driven by personal motivation (Schenk). If the counterpoint lessons were really so awful, why did Beethoven rush to play the Opus 1 piano trios to Haydn almost as soon as the latter set foot back in Vienna on his return from England in August 1795, and then to dedicate the Opus 2 piano sonatas to him a few months later, in spite of the controversy over Opus 1 No 3 ? (Interesting question: just why was Beethoven so fussed about Haydn’s opinions ?). I do think there are serious question to be asked taking a more balanced ie Haydn-centric view of the lessons to counter the Beethoven-centric norm revolving around the following (for starters). Firstly, insufficient consideration has been given to how busy Haydn was from the commencement of the lessons shortly after Beethoven’s arrival in Vienna in November 1792, and in particular, whilst the two composers were together during the summer and autumn of 1793 at Eisenstadt when Haydn was working on symphonies and the set of string quartets Opus 71/74 which had to be ready for the forthcoming trip to England - context is important. Secondly, we have absolutely no idea what was discussed orally between them - both the Beethoven and Haydn biographies and studies on this are notoriously thin and over-reliant on speculative conjecture. One of the traditional criticisms of Haydn is that he didn’t correct everything; is it not likely that having corrected one exercise, others similar may well have simply been talked through ? (probably the meaning of the ‘x’s that Haydn marked on some of the extant leaves). Thirdly, again never properly investigated: were Beethoven’s complaints about *what* he was being taught, and *how,* rather than *who* was teaching it; it is a fair point to suggest that Beethoven did not think he needed to complete endless exercises based on very old-fashioned modes for example. Your suggesting Albrechtsberger to be ‘…the second most important teacher after Neefe’ is a point worthy of debate: I do believe he was the best teacher and pedagogue in Vienna, Haydn knew this and that is why he recommended him to Beethoven to take over the lessons after Haydn left for England in January 1794. Whether or not Beethoven would agree with your second most important teacher suggestion is again debatable; Haydn (Opus 2) and Salieri (Opus 12) both received dedications, whilst Neefe and Albrechtsberger received nothing which suggests something… I agree with you entirely about Clementi and the keyboard playing; I think there are traces of Mozart and Haydn in the sonatas, and in terms of *compositional* technique, the latter in particular is evident; but the more modern keyboard technique owes little to either Mozart or Haydn but is from the new world of Clementi, Dussek, Cramer et al. (I think it was Clementi’s newer technique that so rattled Mozart at the famous competition between the two of them for the Emperor in 1781, and was responsible for Mozart’s rather sour comments about octaves and thirds, mechanicus, and so forth). I don’t know if it’s a matter of translation, but I really don’t understand your point about Bach’s harmony* and its supposed ‘influence’. Again, agreed about Cherubini, I think Beethoven considered him his greatest living contemporary, though as is often the case with Beethoven’s pronouncements, extreme caution should be exercised over taking them at face value, and out of context (besides the lessons already mentioned, his comments about Handel for example are not entirely clear-cut). Hope you find something of interest in the above, but as I began, I’m not sure we’re really all that far apart. * In music, harmonie (German) and harmony (English) are notorious false friends.

A college composition teacher of mine opined rather haughtily that Beethoven made no advances in harmony beyond Mozart's. He composed bad Prokofiev and had little interest in counterpoint or form. This teacher had one fewer students the next semester.

Thank you so much for your encouraging comment.

Yes, you're absolutely right, I should have done, especially after watching John Deathridge's fascinating talk on the subject here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6MZPw4R3rTY.html (from around 4:30)

@@themusicprofessor Thanks so much for that link. Fascinating indeed! I'm hooked for the entire talk now. By the way, love the videos; they're as entertaining as they are informative. The editing and gifs = hilarious stuff lol Keep up the great work.

​ @Olly ​ Very interesting, but is there any provenance that Beethoven would have heard the Bastien und Bastienne overture written circa 1768, in Bonn? Or in Vienna in 1777? Or Paris 1778? Considering Beethoven wouldn't be born until 1770? Other than Dr. Franz Mesmer's (from which the word mesmerized comes from) alleged performance at its supposed premiere in Mesmer's garden theater (that is only corroborated by an unverified account of Nissen), the first recorded performance is in 1890. Mesmer left Vienna in 1777 after a scandal when he unsuccessfuly attempted to restore a blind musician (he was partially successful). I find it somewhat unlikely, that a private commission would have been something Mozart would have shared as teaching with the brief time in Vienna Beethoven had studies with Mozart cut short by the death of his mother.

​@@themusicprofessor Very interesting, but is there any provenance that Beethoven would have heard the Bastien und Bastienne overture written circa 1768, in Bonn? Or in Vienna in 1777? Or Paris 1778? Considering Beethoven wouldn't be born until 1770? Other than Dr. Franz Mesmer's (from which the word mesmerized comes from) alleged performance at its supposed premiere in Mesmer's garden theater (that is only corroborated by an unverified account of Nissen), the first recorded performance is in 1890. Mesmer left Vienna in 1777 after a scandal when he unsuccessfuly attempted to restore a blind musician (he was partially successful). I find it somewhat unlikely, that a private commission would have been something Mozart would have shared as teaching with the brief time in Vienna Beethoven had studies with Mozart cut short by the death of his mother.

@@Renshen1957 The possibility of Beethoven knowing the Mozart is next to zero; it is far more likely that both composers heard and noted the same melody from an unknown third party, folk-tune, street-players, or suchlike. Beethoven possibly heard Mozart play during his brief visit to Vienna in 1787; they never met, and most certainly Mozart never gave Beethoven any lessons. Not sure why this urban myth still persists about Beethoven meeting Mozart - probably because so many would like it to. Check out the modern biographies of either composer by Solomon, Lockwood, Swafford, et al, who set this nonsense right, and disregard the older more unreliable ones dependent on dubious, suspect, spurious, fake sources, often little more than fiction.

A lot of Mahler derives from Beethoven (and Schubert)!

Thanks for giving Beethoven (and the rest of us) a composition lesson.

Yes!

I mean, Beethoven himself on his deathbed attributed the Eroica symphony to be his greatest work. That should say a lot about how high of a regard he held it.

Only the 1st movement of the 9th is any good

yeah but isn't the choice of that year usually related to the replacement finale of string quartet op 130 (november 1826)?

Thank you for the kind comment!

Did you notice Satie's cameo?

​@@themusicprofessor Of course! It's quite obvious if you look closely.

Thank you so much for your support and encouragement!

Superb comment!

Thank you for your encouragement!

It's not always easy to know what happens by coincidence in creative work. But in Beethoven's case, I think there's a strong argument to be made in favour of his enormous musical intelligence being aware of these motivic connections, which are so conspicuous throughout all his music. In this instance, the chromatic drop in the main theme seems to be a continuing topic throughout the symphony.

@@themusicprofessor Yeah, good point. Like, it may be that Beethoven came up with the chromatic idea, and then realized that it's the typical voice leading pattern behind the Neapolitan chord, so that inspired him to use the Neapolitan chord.

I think so. Composition was also closely connected improvisation - Beethoven knew all these standard harmonic patterns as part of his everyday vocabulary and he was constantly rethinking how to use them in exciting new ways.

It's true. The E minor melody at the heart of an E flat piece is a wild thing to do!

Isn't it though?!

Is "Paris Sonata" Piano Sonata 8 in A minor K310 ?

@@melvinblandin8704 Yes, actually. Sorry, I wasn't very specific.

Thank you!

That's right! The 'strange voice'. There's something enigmatic about it all.

Same now he's my favorite composer lmao

Thank you!

We will definitely look at Rach 2 at some point.

I like controversial views but I really don't agree. If the Eroica first movement is boring and repetitive, then surely (almost) every piece of music - except...I don';t know..Schoenberg's Ewartung is...boring and repetitive

No such person exists; and no such person exists.

It's an interesting idea. Perhaps, in the future...

Yes indeed. The finale of 8 is really wild.

I hope that was figuratively speaking

Yes. Actually the relationship of the great classical era composers to fugues is really interesting: Haydn had already proposed that they were cool in his Op 20 string quartets back in 1772 when Beethoven was 2! And Mozart was putting fugues in all over the place in his late music. And Beethoven became increasingly obsessed with fugues as he got older.

Mozart and Haydn both integrated older counterpoint into the more modern sonata-type music on a regular basis, whether in the contrapuntal treatment of motifs and themes (Finales of Mozart Symphony 41 and Haydn Symphony 95), or by simply writing fugues (as found in three of Haydn’s Opus 20 string quartets, or in Symphonies 3, 13, 40, and 70). Beethoven simply carried on the practice in his own way.

Thank you!

Los 4 movimientos en general son magnificencias

¡Sí, las transcripciones de Liszt son siempre inspiradoras y maravillosas!

Well he did wear glasses in later years. Poor Bach and Handel both went blind though, and both had disastrous operations from the same quack doctor.

Es absolutamente extraordinario. ¡Pero Mozart también tiene cosas increíbles!

This comment is as inaccurate as to fact as it is mistaken in judgement.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Beethoven fue un arquitecto único de estructuras armónicas. Todo lo que surgió a partir de su trabajo dio lugar a todo el romanticismo. Te guste o no te guste.

@@Leofiora Tutti hanno diritto a un opinione, anche se completamente sbagliata. (Chiedo scusa, non parlo spagnolo).

@@elaineblackhurst1509 sbagliato vive colui che pensa all'opinione dell'altro senza argomenti. L'orgoglio è un cattivo consigliere. È antidemocratico. È l'essenza del fascismo e dell'intolleranza. Quando qualcuno cerca di confutare le mie argomentazioni, parla più di se stesso che di me. comprati una vita, ti fa bene.

The greatest composer of all time doesn’t exist, just like there’s no greatest artist, writer, or greatest whatever in any field of human achievement. Beethoven is however one of the greatest of composers. Just for argument’s sake: where Mozart in Don Giovanni or Haydn in The Creation soar like eagles, when your ‘greatest composer of all time’ tried his hand at opera in Leonora/Fidelio, or oratorio in Christ on the Mount of Olives, unfortunately, Beethoven walks like a parrot.