It is almost that simple. I would specify the original statement by saying "when a player dies, make it so that it SEEMS like it was their fault, not the game's. Even if it was the games." That qualifier is there because I am a fan of nethack, which is brutal and hard and unforgiving and totally fucking unfair at times, but it always SEEMS fair, to your limited knowledge.
"If you demand that the player wait through minutes of content they already mastered just to get another chance at the thing they failed at, you have created a game which is punishing, not difficult." Like walking from a bonfire to a boss in Dark Souls? I love Dark Souls but it's definitely both difficult and punishing.
+OyeBeto7 Some fire emblem games fit into I have have to wade through 20 minutes of boring, heck at least in dark souls you have be smart to even get around normal enemies so you are thinking about things so it doesn't bore you to death.
@Jacob Sorensen we can proclaim every frustrating element or mechanic to be teaching patience and modesty. DS1 does not even meet the most criteria from this video, lol. You cannot win fights without learning enemy movement patterns (mage powergame excluded), where is the choice of approach in that? Plenty of "punishing" moments like platforming challenges where you basically fight controls themselves instead of utilizing controls to solve your problem. Basically, Sekiro is much more accessible in all aspects, even by this video's standards.
***** Referring more to the fact it closes chrome. It's by no means a difficult combo. Play SC2 at a good level to understand quick difficult key bindings.
the scariest thing is that that game has actually consistent core mechanics, which means that literally every fail is only a result of player's incompetence
I hate difficulty spikes. I remember this moment in Mass Effect. I played through half the game without dying once. But then, after you save a particular character, you go into an elevator and on the top floor enemies attack you. Not only is it unfair, because there's no time, no covers, and multiple enemies constantly shooting so I ended up dying 30 times, but also the save point is just BEFORE you enter the elevator so every time you restart you have to wait like 2 minutes doing absolutely nothing while the elevator goes up. I recently wanted to replay the entire Mass Effect trilogy and I stopped playing the fucking game after that moment.
I actually use Punishing as the good term, and the other is Unfair. Unfair is like what you described, enemies appearing behind you because reasons, that is unfair and not ok, but in Dark Souls if i forgot to raise my shield, i get Punished. Punishing to me means it punishes you for making a mistake, it makes you try again and see if you can do it this time without making too many mistakes, while Unfair is something like a 3 frame instant death attack and then your back to the start of a 30 minute boss fight. A lot of rage games on the internet are Unfair, you couldn't know that spot was a trap until you stepped on it, while punishing would be where the spot had a visible sign that it is gonna kill you but you stepped on it anyway and now your dead. Punishing the player means the player had to do something wrong, unfair means you could smack the player just because you want to. A lot of RTS games will pull some Unfair moments, sometimes it'll be this mission has a unique unit you can use that is really good for this level, but right before the end of the level every one of those units suddenly switches sides and you lost your entire army and you have no time to respond, or you have an ally for the mission until you complete the objective, then without warning they turn on you and their base was right next to yours so now your base is being destroyed and your army is on the other side of the map.
I honestly found it funny that the Fire Emblem: Awakening segment referred to the thing that people have been complaining about for years in the FE community. The "Ambush Spawns", which also give players the most dread in Lunatic and Lunatic+ difficulties. Great episode as always! :D
Also, there is a "casual mode", and you can save anytime you want and no perma death. Normal mode is like "you have been ambush, deal with it" and normal mode is not made to do a restart if sh*t happens.
***** How can you constantly cry foul about people using ad hominem against you while calling them "savage bitches"? And for that matter, then call those same people hypocrites and act like you're above it all when you just...I don't even...seriously, what is wrong with you?
***** You complain a lot about a game and series you're ignorant about. I mean taking MJEmirzian's intentionally caustic review as fact, when he intentionally overexaggerated his complaints about the marriage mechanic only because he disliked the concept. In other words you've missed out on a great Fire Emblem game and are getting mad for no real reason and lashing out on the Fire Emblem fanbase isn't going to fix anything.
***** Wow, it's quite obvious that you spend TOO much time on TVtropes by judging the way you over reference tropes in your rebuttal posts. Sadly, it's safe to say that you need to spend some time off the internet and TVtropes and remember how to communicate like a normal person.
The first time I watched this episode I hadn't played Dark Souls so I thought Anor Londo was like, a city in California where they were gonna be at a convention or something.
@@cringyboring I wont say piss easy, especially against Mr Chained Ogre's grab attacks. Its more about learning the patterns of attacks and fitting counters, which are a whole tho.
Rayman Origins and Legends are definitely good examples of difficult but fun, since similar to Super Meat Boy it allows the player to see where they went wrong and think of the way around it and immediately try again since it throws them back in so quick. One challenge immediately flows into the next and it never feels too frustrating. They may do the memorisation of the level thing that is discussed in this episode through in the Daily/Weekly Normal/Extreme Challenges mode of Legends, but they did it well since the sole reason was for the player to want to best the scores of others and gain a better payout of Lums for it, as well as improve their skills and reflexes. This game is a great example of difficulty done right.
Angelo Sandoval the difference this video is making is pretty much the difference between battletoads and tmnt or gantlet, both are hard, but the latter is hard because you have to practice and become more skilled in you're play style. battletoads just slaps nigh unavoidable death traps into a cramped space and laughs at you. even after beating a level, it isn't satisfying, just annoying.
Great vid! I've heard a lot of people complain that games shouldn't be criticized for being too difficult, but the reality is that difficulty is only a good thing if the game is hard FOR THE RIGHT REASONS. Criticizing a game for being hard for the wrong reasons is totally valid. And I think you did a great job of outlining all (or at least many) of the requirements for making a LEGITIMATELY difficult (but totally fair) game.
An excellent example of this is Hollow Knight. It is challenging, yet engaging. For the pantheons, it allows you to attempt the bosses without completely restarting the pantheons.
I thought the illustration of evolution was awesome and hilarious. Ataripithecus Pitfallis Missing Link Homo Fordus Croft-Magnon Nathanderthal That'ts actually quite brilliant.
Touhou Project was like the hardest game series from my childhood and it didn't stop me from getting into it though. It was pretty much like some Donkey Kong Country equivalent of classic shoot 'em ups difficulty wise. Thank gosh, I've been able to actually 1cc Double Dealing Character on normal thanks to that flash game gem called Reactance 2 which my cousin had me play mainly for training my danmaku game skills.
It took me nine years to beat that game by the way. I first got it on PS2, got to the second last chapter and gave up. Then i got the game on PC a few years later, and quit the game at the same exact spot. Lost my save. Then i got the RE4 HD on PC and once again quit trying to beat the game, but this time i didn't get as far as i used to get. A few weeks back i decided to fucking beat that game and i continued from my HD save and fucking did it! I'm so proud of myself! And i love that game! I'm not sure if i want to go for Adas campaign though, it'll probably take me at least 9 hours to beat...
Niskinatorn You should,ive beat the game and unlock every possible weapon,definitely best RE ever,I replay it from start to finish main story and play Ada's one countless time,I even know every single trap and way to die, one of best ps2 game ive ever played in my childhood
BlackSkullHeart I belive i was only 12 y/o the first time around i played that game - might explain why i thought that it was hard. It was the very first and only 'survival' game i had ever played at the time. Except for a few minutes of RE3 as an even younger kid, but i had to turn it off before i even got past the first pack of zombies so i don't think that counts!
One of the most unique games, Super Mario Maker, has a wide variety of difficulty and punishments. You can actually set what the player wants to feel in this game and even play other people's levels. I know this was made in the future, but it has nearly unlimited possibilities. Try it!
Levels in Mario Maker in a nutshell: Easy: Auto levels and short levels with barely any hazards Normal: Same as above Hard: Door of death levels, enemies right on Mario at the start, a lot of parkour. Expert: Invisible blocks, developer exits levels, find the P switch in a invisible block, a bunch of not needed sound effects, double/triple jumping with Koopa shells, Kaizo levels, jump on the falling enemy, badly designed parkour levels.
Nep Nep Most of those hints are incredibly unhelpful, considering that they don't tell you the enemy types and fliers can easily reach your army. Most maps in the game have very few choke points and a lot of spawn points. Not to mention that some maps lack warnings altogether. If you want to see what this adds up to, play the tree level and tell me that was fun.
SlyBiffrons I actually just did, replaying it for the god-knows-how-many-times, and the first time in a solid year. I had no problem whatsoever, seeing as how the fliers spawned on either side are actually WEAKER than the other enemies in the level. One has a short spear, and the other a steel lance. Both weapons are outclassed by the silver weapons, spears, and tomahawks already in the level. And the reinforcements from the bottom of the map should be expected, as that's the only path to the Mila Tree. If they aren't telegraphed, they tend to be a minor threat, like in that level. I for one absolutely love the Mila Tree level. It's not only a fun chapter, but also a great place to summon Risen to train low level Advanced units at later in the game when you're training your side armies.
Nep Nep I'm not a fan of that level, especially with the reinforcement falcoknights and those damned counter warriors. It's not like you can choose to aggro specific enemies, so your squishier, less speedy units (at that point in the game, most of your units) tend to die pretty easily unless you take them to a very small, memorized portion in the middle of the map. The fact that they moved on the same turn added virtually nothing to the gameplay but frustration. I don't believe that any strategy game should rely on prior memorization. The best implementation of same-turn reinforcements would be in the Emmeryn rescue level. They spawned in the back, far away from where the action should be, easily caught up (fliers), and were hinted to by a warning ("Wyverns! Cut off their escape!").
SlyBiffrons Hmmm Were they Falcon Knights? XD Can't remember, could've sworn they were just level 17-19 Pegasus Knights Anyways, your squishier units should always be paired with tanky ones to offset that squishiness, or speedy ones to make sure they aren't hit but once in a blue moon. My favorite combo like that is definitely Gaius or Lon'qu paired with Lissa. When an enemy would hit, they dual-guard. That is, if they survive the initial hit. Pairing units is a necessity to train the squishers. They simply create dead weight otherwise.
If that's what punishing games are, my patience complemented my low skill several times in those. I feel like every game is either too easy or hardly managable. Did you often had that "Aha" experience in games? I only had it sometimes in a few.
LeadFaun I mean that most games are either too easy or almost impossibly difficult to me and if a game is too difficult for me I have the patience to keep struggling for a while but it's very rare for me to get interested in the upcoming challenge. I mean: Are you interested in an unsatisfying experience that not even have an end?
LeadFaun Oh okay. You know for example in puzzle-games when you have already worked/thought about possible solutions just to see then the rather simple solution? This can - in other forms, for example strategy - occur in other genres too.
Rocket league is the best multiplayer modern example I see of this. Insanely easy to pick up in play, but the skill gap is ridiculously wide out of any multiplayer game I’ve ever played
I've always had similar thoughts about the Shovel Knight/Mega Man debate, where players of Shovel Knight complained that the game didn't stay true to the Mega Man origins because it had too many level checkpoints, and that a truly difficult game would have only had one or two save points throughout a level rather than 4 or 5. But when you think about it, that's ridiculous, and totally unnecessary. Since when is re-traversing a part of the level that you have already proven you can pass easily over and over again fun? Wouldn't it be better to start right where the part that killed you is?
Jacob Hanser I completely agree. To top that off, I would argue that if you're playing a game and it has good checkpoints it actually makes subsequent playthroughs more rewarding. You master each part individually and put it all together in future playthroughs. A lot of people who argue that these more punishing games like mega man are better forget that you can just set the challenge yourself. No one is stopping them from resetting the level nor is anyone stopping them from replaying the game with a self imposed challenge that they'll never die. I always like to bring it to the attention of those kind of people that some of the best gamers out there (speedrunners for instance) actually play the game all the way through normally, then often abuse savestating on emulators to practice and master sections of a game before going on to do it altogether. If mastery is your thing (as these elitist types claim it to be) it's actually more efficient and effective to practice each part separately first before attempting the game's sections as whole pieces. So in this regard checkpoints are good for that. And finally I'm honestly less likely to want to replay a game after first completion if I know I had to replay an entire level 10 times over for one or two mistakes that I was trying to learn from. Not only because I know I'll have to do that same thing again if I dare to make that mistake again but also because I've had 10 playthroughs worth of experience on that level before I even had a chance to do 1 playthrough of other levels.
"Or if you demand that the player wait through minutes of content that they alread mastered just to get a chance with thing they failed, you have created a game which is punishing, not difficult"...Well, what about the dark souls bonfire system? You have to repeat over and over the same parts of the game, specially when you're going to boss fights. You die in the bossfight and have to walk minutes to have another try, and sometimes even die in the proccess since the game put a lot of npc's com dangerous spots who respawns everytime.
@@Yggdrasil42 except that they are not characters. A character is something that has relevance to the story/plot. So an npc is something non playable that has something to do with plot. So random mobs are not characters therefore not npcs, just mob enemies
@@lester6415 From the DS wiki: "Once you have found Kalameet the second time, go back to Gough and talk to him again; he will now ask you if you need help with the dragon. Say 'Yes.' He will ask if you intend to prevail until the end, say 'Yes.' Then a short cinematic will play showing Hawkeye Gough using his bow to take down Kalameet from the skies. Now you have to go to the valley again and you will find Kalameet on the ground, though he will still use some low-altitude flying attacks. You can fight and kill him now."
@@wersywerxy That's Kalameet, not the Everlasting Dragon. I even used the Everlasting Dragon's tail to kill the bastard. Trust me, you can't kill the Everlasting Dragon -- hell, I don't think he even actually takes damage, his tail just comes off when you smack it, and by all accounts, he's fine with it. You don't even get banned from the Path of the Dragon or lose and progress in it if you're a member.
2:38 There were demon crows in the painted world that waited to ambush you when you went for certain items, and you couldn't shoot them even though you could actually get pretty close... the arrow or whatever you shot at them when straight through. :(
Sliding spin slash isn't hard to execute at all actually. I mean it is initially if you haven't done it ever, but that's what practice is for. It's honestly not that hard. You can also remap your keys...If we're using that analogy, might as well say all fighting games are bad games.
theDinosorcerer I mapped my melee to my mouse 1 button, because I melee more than I shoot. My single fire is the middle mouse click and I can rapid fire by scrolling down. I change weapons by scrolling up.
Also he got the keys wrong in the video. It's W + LShift + LCtrl + E. You can slide your finger from Shift to Ctrl and hit E with ease. The only problem is know how fast you need to sprint before you can slide, but often when I'm in "the zone" I find myself doing slide attacks from less than a meter.
The move itself is easy to execute, it's aiming that's hard. I've had some really awesome times doing it though. Right after Melee 2.0 came out I did an infected mission and I remember sliding around and slashing through them and having them fall dead after I'm past. Now I do five runs at a guy to kill him.
The iteration time is EXTREMELY HIGH in Dark Souls, and Dark Souls 2 which was my biggest problem with the game design in the Souls series. There were some bosses where if you died on them you'd have a 20 minute run session through 50 enemies just to get back to where you were, and if you died again on the way... RIP souls. The biggest example of this was Seathe the Scaleless, who if you died on you'd have to run through a field past crystal golems, into a crystal cave, past more golems, across tons of invisible bridges, all the way down and through a field of pearl clams before you even get to try again. THIS DROVE ME NUTS, for real what are they losing if they put a bonfire somewhere in between that? Are they really making the game any less difficult?
But that's because you chose to fight all the enemies on the way to the boss, you could just run if you wanted to, and you can do that easely for every boss.
Tito Titoburg Actually they could fix this really easy but just God damned making enemies spawn at random places making it unique rather than tedious as fuck.
@@feliperodrigues5437 the only enemies i kill in crystal cave is the crabs otherwise i have to kill at least one of them when seath arrives and want to petrify you. Dark souls is FUN (half irony)
the console version of warframe might be easier to do the sliding spin attack since you don't have to reach a finger away for shift, you just have to click the stick in. (shift is run im guessing.)
i would honestly like to argue that fire emblem fates were able to telegraph their reinforcements (for the most part) due to the placement of stairs and specific points where it's quite evident that they will come from. but i will agree that on some chapters the reinforcements were really bad, like the one where you fight on a tree.
Well, the thing about fates that made it so much better in terms of reinforcements is that they just, APPEAR! Ta-dah! Here we are! And you get a full turn to deal with those enemies you're already facing along with these new punks that've appeared. Shall I continue? Or do I retreat? And Fates also did well with this difficulty curve thing, conquest in particular. It becomes mind-crushingly difficult, yes. And they may be only few ways to get through it. But as long as the player has planned well, it's entirely fair.
I think the difference between good and bad reinforcements depends a lot on whether it's: a) An actual reinforcement. (They appear but they can't attack on the same turn.) b) An ambush spawn. (They appear and attack on the same turn.) If memory serves me right, Fates didn't have ambush spawns at all, while Awakening used them liberally. Sometimes there would be a *_freaking Wyvern Lord ambush_*, by which point you should just "pick a god and pray".
IIRC, the Ice Tribe level in Birthright had ambush units as its gimmick, which was kind of obnoxious, and you weren't able to see the enemies on the other side of a very important door in the clearly poorly-designed-and-rushed Revelations (getting one of my units killed right before the boss fight after the stealth mission they didn't explain was actually one of the worst experiences I had with any Fire Emblem ever), but that's just two instances while Awakening had them everywhere. If I could ignore Revelations with its unfun hard and lunatic modes, I'd say that Fate's difficulty was handled incredibly well for what it is. Classic Fire Emblem, by nature, is a very punishing game, but that gives it the advantage of really raising the stakes and adding some extra intensity to the chances of being killed by that enemy with a 45% hit rate. And in all fairness, if a character dies, you still do have the choice to move on - it's just not usually optimal to go without them, and you have to be kind of heartless.
I love challenging games because the process of getting better is fun and achieving victories which makes all the time you put into your improvement worth it. Always enjoyed that way and always will.
I think the best example of a game that's challenging versus a gaming that's just punishing is Dark Souls vs Ninja Gaiden 2. Dark Souls, as mentioned in the video, is a game that has clear defined rules for both parties. What stuns you will stun everyone. In playing Ninja Gaiden 2 on the easiest difficulty even these basic principles aren't present. I found myself whaling on an enemy's head with the heaviest attacks on the hardest hitting weapon and he acts as if I'm doing nothing, but a simple scratch from the enemy and I'm thrown off my combo and have at least a quarter of my life taken away. This is not fun, this is controller breaking aggravation and on the EASIEST setting at that. I was personally glad to hear when Itagaki relinquished his position at Team Ninja because I thought it would make way for balanced difficult, rather than throwing impossible odds at you and stating "Go for it." I have a scenario; I finished off a boss battle and at the end in an open environment with no potential for cover I see the tell-tell signs of the boss is going to explode. I do my natural instinct; run. I'm all the way at the edge and when the boss explodes, I die. Because of this I had to endure the boss fight several more times wanting to break the controller in half with every second that passed by. I died two more times as a result of the explosion even after strategically placing the boss at one end and running to the other. Turns out, after looking it up, I had to BLOCK the explosion with my SWORD. This is an example of the game not playing by its own rules as in every cutscene involving an explosion Ryu either jumps to safety or flees. It was never indicated that you could block an explosion at any point in the game and it punishes you for not knowing this principle. I'm hopeful that should Ninja Gaiden 4 come out it will be more in line with the style of difficulty Dark Souls presented.
This reminds me of the Halo Legendary mode marathon I'm having right now. I die so many times, but I still play through a few objectives just about every night. (Before you say "that's a marathon?" keep in mind I'm a college senior).Most of the time when I struggle it's because I'm not using the right strategy. Today I was trying to board a Corvette and tried using a force field as cover and try to shoot things in between jumps. When I changed strategies and instead jumped to the bottom and dashed for a short hallway, it was easy.
The developers of Terraria could leran a thing or two from this. As could the developers of StarBound, for that matter. Heck, just about any "survival/crafting" game development team could learn a few things from this. Especially on the iteration time front. It's not exactly fun to spend an hour gathering resources to make a boss-summoning item, get killed by the boss, and then be expected to go make that item all over again to get a second shot.
Sky Render Not to mention Mount and Blade Warband. It's such a good game when you finally get an army, but good god the amount of punishment you have to go through.
Sky Render Yeah they could. On top of that even the boss designs of Terraria could use some help. The early game bosses are fair for the player, but late game bosses pretty much require gear from grinding more so than actual player skill and understanding of the mechanics. You couldn't beat a single boss past skeletron without using some accessories and armor to speed you up and increase DPS so that the free hits that your forced to take occasionally don't add up over time and so that you take less free hits. All of these things take excessive grinding and worst of all luck to acquire. It's a fun and interesting game but not a very balanced one.
Randygandalf95 Eh... I would argue that it's pretty easy to get an army. Just go around villages, recruit guys, hunt looters, recruit more guys, sell their loot, and then go and fight sea raiders, wear their armour, and start crafting an expert army.
I know I'm replying to an old thread but MOON LORD DEAR GOD. multiple hour iteration time including five separate boss-level encounters. For one attempt.
And Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer for the DS comes up in my mind again. It may fail in the "making your player do again what he already mastered", but it's in the nature of the game in a way that... doesn't actually bother me. And that's thanks to the roguelike nature of randomness and every adventure you try again is somehow unique. You should give an good overview in Shiren, guys, I'm telling you haha
Ah, yes, I love the Mystery Dungeon series. My favorite is the original. You know, Red Rescue Team. Oh, wait, you're talking about Shiren the Wanderer.
So I made this post on Asmongold's reaction already, but I just wanted to say that on harder difficulties, Fire Emblem Awakening does telegraph it's ambush reinforcements usually with the bass calling them in. Then in 2 turns usually, they'll pop out of a fort or staircase or from the rear. A better example of punishing difficulty would be the randomly generated enemy skills on lunatic+ difficulty.
They could had mentioned Monster Hunter.. You need to develop player skill not only in game items to defeat harder monsters.. A skilled player with no armor and just a weapon can defeat a monster that a unskilled player with best armor and weapon could not. It gives you a great feeling of improvement and its very rewarding ! :)
(I don't give a shit if this is 3 years old) YES Monster Hunter punishes you at first but once you learn you need to learn the telegraphs it becomes MUCH easier
i like hyper dimension neptunia but they would have these scenes of bossfight, cutscene, boss fight again, another cutscene and a final bossfight with no safe spots inbetween .-.
The only part where you hat 3 fights without saving is only in rebirth 1 as far as I remember. Are there others? In the other games, there were max. 2 boss fights without saving between. And in most cases, the first fight wasn't that hard. But I agree, that shit became very time consuming when you die in the second one ._.
+CapitaineToinon Haha, I came to this video by chance after I failed a dozen times at the two archer guys in Anor Londo. When he said "I see you in Anor Londo!" at the end I was like "Ho... how... how can he know?!?!" ;D
magmaslug Considering your first fight in the series is a boss with a crazy amount of health who can one hit you, even if you figure out the tricks, it's pretty punishing.
jrjuggalo159 The first boss takes 2-5 direct hits to kill you, you aren't supposed to fight it the first time you see it, and you are able to if you choose to make a stand. Dark Souls makes you think logically about killing your targets, not just smashing a button until you win. And the first boss is literally hit it, then get out of the way. The game doesn't send you back very far ever, you just lose your humanity and souls. The souls you can even re-collect.
1) your first fight is a bunch of undead 2) the first encounter with the big guy isn't a fight, you're even told to go to the left door 3) you're obviously not dodging or blocking, or you failed to get your gear from the very beginning because he's pretty easy if you pay attention. The game does a great job through npc dialogue to warn you which path is a dangerous one, traps are never unavoidable if you look, and the game gives you enough weapons, merchants and blacksmiths to upgrade yourself properly
>Shift Control W E? Shit, that's it? No frame perfect timing or anything? Because if that's the case, I could do that easily. Now, a waveshine, that's harder.
+PupdudePwns Nah, you're also moving quite quickly trying to hit a target as you go, it's harder than it sounds and there is a learning curve, but if you can get it down, it's super good.
Yes, a classic. You can have a better tech, army composition, higher numbers, higher morale and discipline, a excellent general and, anyways, lose because the dice rolls. But I'm glad I found other Paradox gamer there.
Nah, in singleplayer past 1600 dice isn't really "win/lose", its more about "wipe(and win)/win" In multiplayer battles are too large for dice (except if its goes really wild) to make a big difference
Sliding Spin Slashes are super easy once you've rebinded your controls. Shift+F+W+Mouse3 is a ton easier to execute, the problem is that the default controls are terrible.
Well, GOI only succeeded because there was a massive "hype-based" advertising machine over it. Everyone played because they either wanted to get views or because their favourite youtuber played it. If it depended on the game itself, it would never have succeeded.
This is so applicable to economics / government that it's scary. There's even a branch of Game Theory (economics) which is called mechanism design, that deals with this.
Personally I feel like games that are story-driven should be only semi difficult so that the player may get immersed into the experience of the storyline. Games that revolve around gameplay (mostly massive online games) should have a level of difficulty and mastery to them rather than spoonfeeding players the game. Don't get me wrong if a game is good, a game is good. However it would be way more fun if an easy game became more difficult or had a difficulty slider which some games do have as we know.
I think story line games are good as difficult because it gives motivation to the player. Of course you couldn't have high difficulty until the player was hooked by the story.
King Tommy Parrinello In difficult games engaging story is important for the pacing of the game. It gives you interesting breathing room between more hectic moments and servers as reward for playing the game well.
Randygandalf95 your name sucks to type but Fallout: New Vegas is the only game I've ever played where I stopped, saved, quit, and spent a day or two actually THINKING about the choice presented to me, and which direction I wanted to go with it. That's a fuckin' game.
i don't mind challenging games.. but i can't stand repetitiveness of RPGs and MMORPGs. i used to be able to spend hours just leveling up when i was younger.. but it gets really old after a while and it gets very boring and mind numbing doing the same thing all the time. if the challenge is like mario, zelda, or metal gear solid where you have use different strategies all the time, then it's very fun and entertaining. but if i have to execute same command every time i have to level up, it gets very boring and i eventually quit after 2 or 3 hours. i can't spend 50 hours on leveling up any more. i want to spend my free time enjoying the game instead of doing same "labor" for hours.
The fire emblem part didn't really make sense to me. In Awakening, you almost always, if not always, get notification that there are reinforcements popping up soon. If you lost your units to the two people popping up in the corner, it's your fault for not paying attention.
Good little example of a 'A-Ha' moment was last night on DS. Could not get Gywndolin, kept teleporting just as I got to him. I went 'seeing as his hits do crazy damage even in my full armour and I'm pretty much dead regardless if I get caught, what if I put on really light stuff so I'm faster?' Worked and I got him.
In defense for Fire Emblem Awakening, when the enemy reinforcments appear, there is ALWAYS a moment when the enemy commander anounces it in a exposition sequence, they givyou 2 or 3 turns to regroup and heal, you just need to pay attention and follow the Survivla Rule Number One: Never leave a unit alone
Ambush reinforcements are still retarded, especially when you upgrade from Normal to Hard- because, as the video says, that's changing the rules. On Normal, you don't have to care about reinforcements moving when they first appear. Anything higher than that, though, and you get screwed over. Besides, even if the commander does announce that reinforcements are coming, you still don't know exactly how many turns until that happens nor where said units will come from. In defense of Awakening, though, that's just a general problem in Fire Emblem games. Still, never leave a unit alone is a good rule, and for Awakening, never leave a unit unpaired. Seriously. Pairing up wins Awakening.
Yep, but it's easy to wnow where the reinforcements will appear: in a zone with stairs, le't say a castle, they will be there, in a zone with fortresses (is that world right? my nativ language is spanish..) they will appear there, and in zones with none of them, in the edges of the map
Yes, but that's still after the first time you play through a Fire Emblem. For more experienced players who are used to the series, it is less of a problem, but for newer players, they won't be expecting it.
And so I return to one of my original points. Ambush reinforcements don't come until Hard(and by ambush I mean they move as soon as they appear), and so even if a player knows when they're coming from playing through on Normal, the player will not be expecting the immediate movement and may lose a unit.
How the hell is Dark Souls not punishing? What about when you get insta-killed by a dragon's fire (which is impossible to see in advance since he shows himself AFTER you die) and then you have to retrace 10 minutes of what you've done dozens of times before?
+VitoseGG Well, that's still in an area of the game were losing your souls doesn't matter much (along with introducing an amazing spot for farming souls early on if you really want). It teaches things like: Environmental noise will be important (the wings flapping) which is used again extensively in Blighttown, for instance and that: environmental details are important (the charred ground) which is pretty important later on in areas of Sen's Fortress for instance. It's like how the tutorial ball trap feels like bullshit but it's there to teach you that yeah, you need to pay careful attention to what's in front of you. It's also worth noting that most characters don't die to the fire in one hit. The amount of time it takes for Dark Souls to teach you about it's rules and the entrance barrier it has in general can turn a lot of folk off, but that entire area is basically just more tutorial, tbh. Also, although I find this choice a highly questionable one that I don't agree with much, the devs expect you to play the game in online mode, where the messages left by other players would help you in cases like that.
We need to mention Megaman zero 1. That game goes from fair difficulty, to walking through a wall to win, to a top contender for "worst boss fight of all time"
+Felipe Rodrigues mobile games are real games (does a game have to meet specific guidelines to be considered "real"?). the thing is, most of them are just not worth spending time on. there are good mobile games out there, just overshadowed by the sheer amount of half baked money grabbers
Love the video. But, other than obeying the rules described, Dark Souls has many punishing moments. Areas where enemies push a boulder down the stairs onto you or hit you with a wall of deadly fire after 20 minutes of play. Where enemies ambush you from both sides at the end of a long, difficult battle. Ghosts that cannot be killed unless you use a specific item, but that item stops spawning, so you have to "run by" an entire level. Those are serious exercises in confusing frustration. It's "enjoyable" in it's complete and utter disregard for the player's sanity, but requires memorization and experimentation that can take hours and hours with no forward progress and long bouts of iteration. Great game, but frustrating nonetheless for the reasons described in the video.
Dark Souls telegraphs itself, though, and after you do admittedly get beaten in the face early on, the game expects you to learn from that. It's still punishing, but I personally find its punishment fair.
Dark Souls telegraphs all of what you were complaining about. You see the bolder and hear it before it has a chance to hurt you (Unless you look away/have volume too low), the bridge is covered in ash and charred remains (Aka the warning saying fire bad, fire go here, not to mention you hear the drake), you can hear enemies, and there are multiple items to hit ghosts. The Transient Curse tells you that you must be cursed, use a cursed item, or use Transient Curse to effect the ghosts. Which means Artorias Greatsword, the weapons the ghost drop, and the frogs. Not to mention besides buying Transient Curse, the ghosts actually drop the curse themselves. It doesn't require memorization, it requires patience and a cool head.
DoomBringerDANTE . Truth. It does telegraph it's cheap tricks, and you do become better as a player because of it and adapt. But if that was all it did, then I'd agree. But, it promotes "open" progression, which is great and also punishing. Every area of the game is difficult, so a new player has no way of knowing if the way they are going isn't "correct" and leads to a dead-end. 5+ hours of journeying into the XP-less Catacombs, only to find a dead-end after the Tomb of Giants. Nearly stopped playing there. This game is made for Nintendo Power-esque cheats found through wikis and walkthroughs, which I don't like using. Luckily, I've played Silent Hill games before so running past enemies makes sense, but I beat Dark Souls and never made the connection between curses and Ghosts. Never once parried an attack. Hit a merchant by accident and they perma-hate you. It's either restart or ignore it and that is frustration.
"Or if you demand a player wade through minutes of content they already mastered just to get another chance at the thing they failed at", isn't this an exact description of Dark Souls?
To be fair: Fire Emblem as a series traditionally has the "have units show up behind your lines" mechanic. Usually with stairs, opening in forests, castles, villages, oceans, etc. being possible locations for enemy units to come out and tear you a new one. So for new players, having monsters show up suddenly after the mission begun is a bit discerning, for those of us who have played a while are like, "FUCK YEAH! I WAS PREPARED FOR YOU BITCHES! I KNEW SOMETHING WOULD SHOW UP THERE! MY MOST KILLABLE REQUIRE RESOURCE WAS STANDING THERE IMMOVABLE! SHEER SIGN SOMETHING WOULD SPAWN THERE TO KILL IT FULL OF DEATH! HAHAHAHA! I BEAT YOUR STUFF!" As much as Fire Emblem: Awakening seems full of "unfair mechanics" the mechanics are rather predictable and pedestrian as far as the rest of the series goes. To the point where standard concepts such as "LOL Weapons Triangle", "KILLER OF ARCHERS Pegasus Knight OF DEATH FROM ABOVE" and "LOL Dodging Myrmadon" show up a lot sooner and easier in Awakening. There is a moment for playing Fire Emblem games when your Pegasus Knights can soak up a single arrow of damage (and live) that you start jumping around like a baboon making animal noises and screaming "FLORINA HAS BECOME LIKE UNTO SHIVA DESTROYER OF WORLDS!"... or when you realise your Lord Unit, with a bit of level grinding becomes your localised "walking tact nuke unit" (especially Lynn, Erika and Hector)... that Fire Emblem becomes one of those games you play because you have realised how easy it is to create campaign solutions that are the in game equivalent of yelling, "WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW, BIOTCH?!?!" I'm by no means an expert either... I have yet to complete Awakening on Lunatic/Classic mode yet. Most FE experts can do that in their sleep. I'm still trudging along trying to get any distance in Lunatic/Classic... and grinding in Hard/Classic, as honestly I don't really care about getting to the end of a game. I mean... let's be honest, finishing a game really isn't the fun part. It is figuring out playful self expression within the game. I really want to unlock Lunatic+ mode... and get it so my street pass has the little difficulty level of Lunatic+/Classic on it. So that everybody knows to avoid eye contact with me... so I can substitute conversations with people with me writing an MS Office replacement entirely in BASH (what? Like you'd NOT just assume I'd do that with a street pass that says Lunatic+/Classic). And yeah, I am one of those gamers that immediately try the game on one of the harder difficulties. My first attempts where with Lunatic/Classic mode... after many many issues playing the game, I turned the difficulty down to Hard/Classic. But yeah... the complain of "enemy re-enforcements showing up behind your lines" is more, "this happens in Fire Emblem. Your keikaku* needs to include these" (*Translator's Note: Keikaku is Japanese for plan)
***** That is FE *_Fangirl_*... meaning I also create ships for characters and write terrible horrible YAOI and YURI for the various characters. It mean with a bit of practice I could pwn people with it, while describing my various OTPs and reading entries of fan fiction I have made of various characters in the game. Sometimes the fan fiction doesn't include sex... as a fangirl I will choose to abstain from reading those entries instead opting for the more juicy ones.
***** Really? I find running into other fangirls really easy. It mostly requires finding the areas where RU-vid crosses over into Tumblr. Also: make up tutorials... and stuff about drunken lesbians talking about sex... Jenna Marbles is gay, right? I mean... outside of my dreams, right? Only in my dreams? Well damned...
I have to disagree about one bit though. While enemies spontaneously showing up on parts of the map is traditional FE gameplay, it is not traditional that they get to move on that very same turn. In most FE games, the enemies show up at the end of the enemy turn. This provides the player with at least a chance to react. It's an extra challenge, but it's generally fair. Whereas on FE: Awakening's harder difficulties, these enemies spawn and move all at once. When you're first playing a level, it's utterly maddening and frustrating to have them take out 2 or 3 of your squishy characters before you get a chance to react. It is simply unfair and unfun, and forces the player to memorize the placement of enemies by round, which makes on feel less like a master tactician, and rather just a machine. That's my 2 cents.
7ambris Take out 2? or 3? Of my squishy characters? Why am I not doing a soft reset after the first... Or in the case of Miriel "drop kicking my 3DS across the room reset" when she is taken out... I mean--it is only a couple of the games that don't do that (we've only had a couple of the games released in North America)... and Awakening isn't even that evil with it. When Geneologies/Holy War (whatever) does it... the enemy reinforcements are more than the amount of units you could place on the map ignoring any fatigue issues you might have to worry about. Though... the Jugdral(sp?) is the "earliest era" and the fight is expected to be far more "epic" at that result... with it ultimately being the war that has peace being an option people vie for in the later eras that the games follows (such as Marth's Era, and Ylisse's Era). Even then... grabbing a few of the Japanese Only ones... and applying at translation patch (I HATE THE SNES/NES JAPANESE FONT SETS! I'D RATHER STAB MY EYEBALLS OUT THAN TRY TO NAVIGATE THOSE FONT SETS!)... and yeah. I think part of the reason those weren't released here is it was hard to figure out how to make the game less difficult and yet not lose anything major. I imagine the American Release of Holy War would reduce the enemy armies from twenty-five down to like... two. Oh... and an American version of Tracia 776 with the difficulty slide down... would... great... now I have my nightmares set up for how much that whole game would be completely removed the whole point about. Fifth paragraph as four paragraph... oh right... Tracia 776 was traditionally what Fire Emblem fans called "Lunatic+/Classic Mode"... on its normal difficulty level.
***** I think there is a reason that Awakening took so much from FE4 in how it worked and functioned. Having had the Ellibe and Tellius series allow us to have a variation of the Akaneia series get... well... one remake actually showing up here. Oh... right and the single Grado game. Which could allow the Merkan Audience be introduced to some stuff already well known/loved by the Japanese series. Isn't there suppose to be two/three games to every location on a system? Wait... not... the Awakening DLC I suppose could be its Thracia 776... but... yeah. But yeah... it would be nice to see more of the series make its way over here... or at least have Japan make enough remakes that I wouldn't have to put up with the old Japanese font sets. Seriously... so much hate for those. That is why only the NEETs played video games for so long.
+Wouter van den Broek O&S was a bitch with no lock on, but you get used to it... I think DS2 made too depend on lock on. I went back to DS1 and my camera kept going mad as i instinctively locked on. On the other hand DS2 guard breaks and jump attacks are incredibly frustrating with keyboard and mouse....
jpmmm333 yup, recently started playing ds1 again and I managed to beat Ornstein second (which I hadn't done before) and I actually did quite well without lock on. it also was a very enjoyable fight! :D
+ohfivohsixohone Well, i play without the mouse (witch is almost useless in DS2), and i actually have 4 year playing that way. Is mutch easier to move the camera and dodge imo. Try it without mouse.
There's no way to know the rules or the goal, yet there are 7 billion players making whatever moves they want. If you lose too much, or win too much, there are penalties. You can't pass your turn, and if you talk too much, you'll be ostracized. There are no parameters and no way to even know the genre. This world is just...a shitty game.
Blinx The Time Sweeper also allows the player to approach problems by time manipulation. Not only that, it allows the player to approach the game in however way they want and they can use any time power without any restriction.
I feel like this key combination is a lot easier for someone who's left handed, so... I think I lucked out in that retrospect. xD My thumb and index finger can easily hit the Ctrl + Shift keys, whilst I can push W + E with my middle and ring fingers... As opposed to right handed people having to adjust their whole hand into place in order to do any sort of functionality.
Stratelier Well, I suppose everyone's different in terms to how they shape themselves on how to use commands in difficult situations. :P I mean, when it comes down to it, it's basically muscle memory to certain situations.
Duffie Shirayuki So very true. I am a Warframe addict, but with the tutorial they give you, 'simple' actions for a player that has tried things out is very difficult for new players. With Warframe, twitch memory or instinct actions develop themselves over time and become a sort of rhythm. But as the video says, it's more punishing for new players instead of being difficult.
Dominic Volk Oh man, I can agree with that. Sounds like GunZ, where all the professionals have this unique way of fighting, like butterfly and reload slash, but newbies have a tough time even attempting it. Man, lots of these games had this punishing feel on how to use proper controls. xD
I'm a big fan of the fire emblem series, particularly awakening, so i feel the need to defend it. What you refer to is ambush spawning, and is a major part of the hard and lunatic mode difficulties. When choosing hard or lunatic, the game does say that ambush spawning will occur. In most ambush spawn situations, enemies appear on forts, but sometimes they'll appear at an end of the map, but on hard or lunatic difficulty they will always move as soon as they spawn no matter what chapter you're in, making it consistent and, as you put it, following its own rules. This forces the player to be prepared for ambush spawns at any moment and not leave a weak character undefended creating more depth to the strategy. Essentially, the game conditions you to be aware of the possibility of being ambushed at any moment and to work around that. Furthermore, the addition of casual mode, which removes perma-death from the equation, gives a more forgiving learning curve so that beginners can work their way into the series. Lunatic mode, from my perspective, was made for the hardcore fans who enjoyed the outrageous difficulty and consequential proof of tactical prowess, that came with Hector Hard mode in Fire emblem 7, or Fire emblem Thracia 776's entire existence. You brought up the example of failing a level and thinking something like "what if i wall jumped?". I believe that ambush spawns in hard mode do the same thing, it makes you think, "ok, better leave Frederick with Lissa in case of ambush" and it rewards you for thinking that way so that you can identify plausible places for enemy reinforcements to appear in later chapters and either block them to make the chapter easier, or exploit them for EXP. Plus, the map skirmishes make it so that if you play it right, you'll never be behind the enemy in stats.
I think one of the best recent examples of challenging games that are not punishing is celeste, which takes human error into account when it comes to timing or hitboxes, which truly makes the player feel like the death was from their end, and not the games’ fault
