When you hate Brits so freaking much that the Germans seem friendly by comparison. Remember that Germany did try sending rifles and munitions to Ireland in 1916, pre-Rising. But lots of people forget that.
with Ireland, everything is associated with green. The Irish consider green to be a lucy color. There was a fascist group in China during the 1930's called the Blueshirts organized the Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek
@@Kitiwake The Irish national flag is green, white and orange. The green I think symbolizes the Roman Catholic Church; the orange symbolizes Protestantism; while the white symbolizes peace and unity among the two religions; the hopes that Catholic Ireland and Protestant Northern Ireland will reunite and create a united Irish state. I doubt that it will ever happen. OT The King of England's royal standard has a golden harp over a blue field on the bottom left of the quarter which was supposed to represent Ireland, but now it represents Northern Ireland; the first and fourth quarters of the standard have each have three golden lions over a red field, while the second quarter represents Scotland with a red lion over a golden field. OT Some critics say that blue not green represents St. Patrick who they say wore blue robe. But people, at least in the United States go all out with the wearing of the green on St. Patrick's Day. What Irish state is a golden harp of a blue background? The country is golden Brian Boru harp of a blue background? How could a country be a harp?
The German National Socialist gov also financed at least 3 films on Ireland with a direct pro Nationalist bias directed by Leni Reifenstahl the famous female national socialist film director
@fortificationenjoyer1919 youre on this mad flex thinking irish people throughout history have hated english people but its complete bullshit just because YOU hate the english doesnt mean all irish pople did You were a part of the british empire when all the atrocities were commited Your hands arent clean If you really value history you would know that but
Also, Eire was a very catholic country and the church over the centuries had been intertwined with the national struggle against English rule. Very few Irish supported socialist anti-clericalism in Spain and Russia.
I'm 40yrs of age from a mining town in the north-west of England. My grandparents and their ancestor's slaved in coal mines or cotton mills. I didn't endure that life and was lucky enough to find a career in sport. I've searched my lineage with my siblings, and all we found is that we have a deep-rooted heritage of being working class british people. Without wanting to draw an outrageous amount of abuse my way, could I please ask how we are to blame as poor working class people born on an island for the atrocities of Lords, Ladies and Politician's of yesteryear? Surely pointing detest to 'The Brits' is rather broad brushing us all for something that we and our ancestors had no part in.
I understand what you are saying but there were a LOT of atrocities committed in Ireland by brits - and not all of those british were lords and ladies - the length of time (approx 800 years) right up until 2007 when the british army finally moved out, is also a factor! Thats a long time being persecuted by one nation ie the brits! You and your kin might not have been directly involved but you have to be able to see it from the point of view of the victims! Was every German responsible for the Nazi party? Yet the hatred for the Germans is quite strong in britian, even today - and the hatred for the French it quite strong too - it would be hypocritical of you to not see the point of view of the Irish!
For the most part, Irish people don't hold working class people accountable at all, as you all suffered too. Unless they start spewing songs about the empire and whatnot. I personally only feel my skin crawl when I am in the presence of too many London accents.
Painting De Valera as a nazi sympathiser purely is inaccurate. Through Benevolent Neutrality throughout the war he allowed the Allies use of certain air bases, especially to land American troops, he arrested crashed German pilots in Ireland whereas he sent those from the Allies back to Britain, he also gave his condolences at the death of FDR. Its clear that De Valera wanted to stay in the good graces of both sides of the war while arguably leading towards the British side more than anything. This could be down to Ireland still technically being on dominion status at the rime but such actions still don’t suggest a fondness or sympathy of the Nazi regime beyond that of maintaining good relations.
Hitler actually viewed the Irish with favour from a racial perspective. In 'hitlers table talk' he includes the irish as potential colonists in the east. In 'a time of war' it mentioned how the Irish were the same race as southern germanics. It mentions how much 'anglo saxon and norman blood' is present among the population. Nordicism did not begin with Hitler. He based his views a lot on Madison grant who viewed the Irish as mostly nordic, with Mediterranean elements in the south and west.
0 mediterranean influence in Ireland. More influence in scandinavian country due to the viking raids into africa seeking for an i quote "african bulls" Yep its crazy
I have to laugh at republicans who criticize the wearing of the Poppy and all that it stands for.. These people dont consider the fact that if Hitler had won the war Ireland would have been invaded by the Nazis as it was of considerable geographical importance as it was Europe's mains staging post to the Americas.. Republicans should be on their knees thanking the great British Tommy for what they saved us all from..
That would be an interesting video but the limerick soviet wasn't the first social experiment in Ireland, Carlow had one years before it comprised three different areas of rural carlow, one area still exists but is in no way socialist the place name is Bilbo named after the city bilbao which was a haven for socialist thinking in the late 19th and early 20th century
To be fair to Oswald Mosley, he spoke out against the Black and Tans, supported Ireland in every regard, and was one of the few who stood up for Irish rights. If any man deserves a little leeway in Ireland, it’s Oswald Mosley.
Great Video. Well researched. Good to focus on the Spanish Civil War as people from Ireland supported the Nationalists from a religious perspective or the Republicans from an ideologcial perspective. Interesting to the see the links to modern Irish politics as well.
Fascism was popular in many countries in the 1930s, especially in Italy, Spain, Poland, and Hungary. The National Socialists usually denied being fascists because their roots were different (their roots lay in the anti-Semitic Volkish movement). Italian fascism was originally supported by many J*ws.
Anti semitism is not ordinarily associated with the far right. National socialism was an exception. It is the far left that has increasingly been the vehicle for anti semitism.
@@willie2761 Anti semitism has existed at some point through all of Europe but Britain escaped most of the worst excesses. Surprisingly one of the most anti semitic nations, given the relatively small Jewish population, is Ireland. Not just your standard Catholic attitudes towards Judaism, but a pogrom of all things in Limerick at the beginning of the 20th century, incredibly anti semitic justification in the Dail for not accepting Jewish orphans post war, tacit approval of Nazi Germany, and more than happy to give shelter to Nazis post war. Even today the current hysteria over Israel makes you wonder if much has changed.
I wrote my Leaving cert history paper using that book as a source, O'Duffy did however do quite a bit of exageration, he wasnt sent home because Franco no longer needed him although that is true, but instead because Franco had grown tired of him and the Irish's lackluster performance and drinking
The iron fist of de Valera’s government and the hard back hand of Archbishop McQuad’s Catholic Church took good facist care for the decades that followed.🫤
My mother's cousin was a blue shirt. She would have good chuckle when she spoke of him. He used to lover parading around in his uniform, She said he loved dressing up. He eventually turned up in England, after the War and made fortune in the civil engineering business. He never told anybody in England about his fascist ( please don't attempt to say they weren't ) connection - it wouldn't have gone down well to well. My mother would say 'He might have made fortune, but I bet he still loves dressing up. She would n't say what he loved dressing up in - that sort of stuff wasn't talked about back then- it gave her a good chuckle though.
Is Eoin O'Duffy unfairly judged? What would happen if he took power? Also, I forgot to mention at 13:10 that 'Bandera' was the name of the battalion. ___ Edit: I should note I simplified bits of Irish politics for any non-Irish viewers, especially those who think the IRA = right wing just because they were nationalist. Socialism has long been part of the IRA. Also, as someone else pointed out, the IRA did split during the Civil War, and De Valera sought to integrate former members from his side who were anti-treaty, but again I didn't go into it as to avoid going off topic. Irish politics from 1916 up to the 30s can be confusing even to the best of us with all the different factions and ideologies.
Listen, obviously fascism is not defendable but after going through what we went through with the Brits I don’t feel like we can be blamed for not wanting to be on their team….
@@Guitarpeacepic20 years before they were at war. Churchill was responsible for the Black and Tans and partition. They were in a trade war with them a handful of years before the war. Why would they join the Brits or anyone?
No. Ireland did not nearly go fascist. The Blueshirts were a significant and highly visible movement in the 1930s. However, they were never able to present any kind of threat to the highly popular government of the Fianna Fáil party led by Éamon DeValera. Fianna Fáil won most of the elections and held government office for most of the time from 1932 to 1973; the Blueshirts were a historical footnote by 1939.
to say Franco started the war over throwing the "communist" government is just stupid. he overthrew a liberal democracy and took that liberalism to its extreme: fascism.
That’s complete nonsense. The socialist and communist had overturned Democracy in Spain . Franco tried being diplomatic with them . He didn’t even want a war but at that point the Marxist didn’t want it. And fascism and liberalism are not the similar
I always thought fascism is the extreme ideology of social democracy, not liberalism. I was always under the impression that the extreme form of liberalism is libertarianism
Poor analysis of de Valera in the Second World War -he was open in his desire from the start for an Allied victory as were most Irish people . In fact considered academic research is pretty unanimous about the exceptional level of cooperation afforded by the Irish government to the Allies during the War -albeit officially secret.
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3] There's the definition of fascism. Stop calling everyone you disagree with facists or else nobody will believe you when they do show up.
Ireland? Isn't that what they to call that place that turned into the dumping grounds for other countries immigrants they don't want? What's its called now again?
This shouldn’t be forgotten. But neither should the contribution from individual Irish people to the Allied war effort. My grandmother moved from Ireland to the UK to work as a cook on a British army base. There she met my grandfather, they fell in love and got married.
There *is* a connection, albeit a small one. Roger Casement traveled to Germany in 1914 to acquire guns for the IRA. He stayed a while, and presumably, this is where our good relations come from.
@raffles7556 I'm not sure why you're laughing, they're everywhere in Ireland...even the so called anti fascists are fascists here. They're international socialists these days.
There is no tangible connection between Fine Gael of today and the Blueshirts, The Blueshirts were Christians Nationalist, anti Abortion, anti gay marriage, anti trans ideology. Fine Gael today are anti Irish, Anti Catholic and EU Unionists, the Blueshirts faded to a sickly Pinkshirt.
@@Apple-om5mr please explain to me how irish nationalism that seeks too free itself from the shakles of britain is bad? This has nothing to do with nationalism and everything to do with the people who are nationalist. An irish person has no history but the oppression too look back on and an englishman has nothing but oppressing to look back on. Of course their developments are wildly different, although sometimes history gets very convoluted and it still turns out in a way people weren't expecting, like polish nationalism deriving into fascist asthetics. Humans are dynamic and putting a label on the concept of supporting their nation and what they stand for ignores what they actually individually stand for
Some of the rhetoric here is very dangerous. I encourage you to engage more critically with your sources (and cite them). History is not just about telling stories from the past. History is about interrogating narratives, interpreting them, and importantly, engaging responsibly with your sources. Anyone can read a few books and parrot back what they have read. Please have a look out there for instances where poor historiography have resulted in pervasive and damaging myths, or misconceptions. Likewise, please make an effort to improve your own historiography, and better yourself as a historian. As one, you have more power than you may think, we all bear an enormous responsibility as historians, professional or amateur.
@@Oakeedokee7 sounds like critical theory to me. The bits about, “history is about interrogating narratives, interpreting them… anyone can read a few books and parrot back what they read” .
@@gussygrom8047 we must learn from history, yes? So many people in Ireland are not really doing this, either doesn't care, or a legitimate commie or a legitimate self proclaimed neo nzi nowadays. So imo, op has a point about this is said channel.
@michaelfarren, In Newry, before Churchill became Prime Minister and UK Minister for Defence, the British Minister for Defence met the Eire Minister for Defence. The meeting confirmed the relations between the UK and Eire if war ensued between the UK and Germany. Eire was fully active during the war on behalf of UK and its allies, notably the USA. 3 of my uncles won Atlantic Stars, another uncle oversaw the return to the UK of crashed RAF planes and dead UK and US airmen. UK, US, Canadian and Norwegian naval personnel were welcomed in Moville - one Philip Mountbatten was one such.
@@JordanPowerYT Baron anti-Trump.... lol, I'd have a field day dedicating a channel to 'expose' him , let's mildly put it. I'm curious as to what category you promote your clips under when you upload?I've been doing 'News'... Do you use Education > I tried that one but it looks complex. I can't understand why YT doesn't show enough smarts to have a 'History' category.
@@BaronsHistoryTimes I don't think I've ever used a category tbh, I've wondered would that damage view count since the video would then only be promoted to a specific audience?
@@JordanPowerYT - hmmm, interesting. I think I'll experiment with my next couple of uploads and ignore using a category - your point is logical and one which I completely overlooked as a potential audience-restricting factor.... ps. I uploaded a new short an hour ago.... Normandy/American history > can't get much more general history than that one; let's see how it fairs. thanks for the info too 😳
i was reading an account recently of incidents around the village of innishannon in west cork during this period . the village was a stronghold of both the republicans and blueshirts. and their was a lot of fights and other disorder between the 2 groups. including at least 1 murder in the area.
Wow you're right, I never heard of that. It's funny how a lot of it seemed to be centered in Cork. Even during the war of independence and civil war, Cork seemed to be the epicenter for most of it.
@@JordanPowerYT Famine impacted West Cork more than anywhere else big part of the reason, that and remoteness leading to clannishness ... exists to this day
@@MartinMartinm 1900 Queen Victoria visited Cork City .. such was the welcome the British Press dubbed Cork "Loyal Cork" 1920 the very same British Press now dubbed Cork "Rebel Cork" We are the rebels and we are the boys who beat the black and tans!
Inaccurate. There are two independent sovereign countries in Ireland. These facist Blue Shirts recruited from and existed solely in the Irish Free State (republic of Ireland today), it never existed in Northern Ireland.
Errrr...I thought the Blue shirts were in imitation of the Falange in Spain, set up by Diego, son of Primo de Rivera, King Alfonso's first Minister. As the Scots looked up to France, "The Auld Alliance", the Irish looked up to Spain.
Collins called O’Duffy “the best man in Ulster” lol . Certainly not a view held within Ulster Nationalism at the time . Just shows how piss poor Collins’ opinion was when it came to the North in terms of military leaders
Republican Spain was not communist, it was a democratically-elected liberal democracy. And no, Franco did not "save millions of Christians". Quite the opposite, during the first stages of Franco's regimes, about a million people died or were killed due to starvation or oppression from the fascist government. Additionally, about half a million Spaniards fled Spain during Franco's takeover.
Part about reasons for spanish civil war and "Franco saving spain from communism" are old talking points of Franco regime propaganda. Communist Party of Spain had little relavance before the uprasing and real power was held by PSOE which wasnt close to being so radical as communists. The rapes and mass murder hapenned mostley after the start of the war when clergyman offered their support on mass to the nationalist cause. The acts of violence against the church before july 1936 were sporadic and not nearley as brutal as you described.
The 'Red Terror' in Spain started long before Franco's attempted coup, it's not like Franco woke up one morning and decided to do it for no reason. You're right it wasn't as bad before, as compared to what happened after, but it was still horrifying. Nice pfp.
The Bolsheviks were only a part of the Russian revolution too, but afterwards they were able to weasel into absolute power. With the communists getting full fledged support from the Soviets, in Spain, and the Republicans only getting nominal aid from the Democratic countries, if Franco lost Spain would've gone Red quicker than a Commie's face when he says "Real socialism has never been tried"
What exactly is"fascism"? No one definition fits the stereotype. That Mussolini was the inventor of fascism gives us the characteristics that could be applied to a whole bunch of historical leaders doesn't help much. To claim that Duffy is similarly incorrect in that he didn't rule a country. It appears today to merely be an attempted slur against someone you doing like. That's all. As for Duffy, can't say i ever even met him.
Thats an interesting question. fascism is quite a flexible belief system. That can be moulded to local conditions or beliefs. There isn't a single rulebook like communism has with Karl marxs the communist manifesto.
There was never a serious attempt by the Germans to invade Ireland. Nor was there any significant popular support for the Axis in Ireland. Any flirtation with "Fascism" was with the Franco variety ie conservative, catholic and anti-communist. Not at all with the radical perversion of socialism that was German Nazism or Italian Fascism. They were very different movements. The Nazis hated Jews. Mussolini and Franco were completely indifferent to them. The former certainly had a fair few Jewish women share his bed and also had senior Jewish members in his party. There were very few Jews in Spain at the outbreak of the war (Spain's hysterical hatred of Jews on religious grounds in the late middle ages had seen to that). But surprisingly, perhaps, Franco's Spain was a haven for Jews escaping France during WWII. No Jews were ever handed over to the Nazi or Vichy authorities from Spain. Also, Spain's adamant refusal to join the war on the Axis side probably saved Britain in 1940-41. Just think what would have happened if Franco had allowed the Germans or Italians to take Gibraltar by allowing them to traverse Spanish territory? The war in North Africa would have been over in early 1941, six months before Russia joined the war and nearly a year before the Americans did. All the "evidence" pointing to Irish support for Nazis is insignificant .Like: WOW!! There were TWO irishmen who joined the SS after being captured! That's not a trend; it's a blip. De Valera had no love for Churchill or the British in general but there was no way he was picking a fight with the British Empire. He wasn't mad gone on the Germans either.
1) England and France didn't support the Spanish Republicans. They adhered to the Non-Intervention agreement. 2) O'Duffy's men directly faced the Irish fighting on the Spanish Republican side at the battle of Jarama.
The Republicans got support from them at first, particularly a lot from France, to the point where the Nationalists were actually stealing the aid because they weren't getting enough from Germany and Italy. There was plenty of back channel aid from Britain to the Republicans I maybe should have said the Soviets instead of Britain though, as they helped more, but I don't really consider the Soviets to be European.
@@JordanPowerYT certainly true Blum in France had sympathy for the Republic and the Left in the UK did a lot to aid them. Interesting perspective to see the Soviets as non-European. However they are labelled, they definitely went into it to serve Stalin's own interests. Depending on who you read, they took what was the world's 2nd or 3rd largest gold reserves in return for 'help'. Then they stabbed the rest of the Left (CNT, POUM etc) in the back behind the lines. I think Mexico was the only other nation that gave formal support (?). Franco was far smarter at getting foreign support (Condor Legion, Italian infantry, American oil companies) without reciprocating much later on (The Blue Division on the Eastern Front in WW2 and that's about it). Hitler said he'd rather have a tooth pulled than talk with Franco again.
Fascism was very fashionable all over Europe in the 30s, most countries had a fascist party, Britain and Ireland were no different. Hitler didn't think Jack s**t of us Irish and we were on his hit list along with the blacks and romas.
The opposite, Irish were considered superior Aryans by National-Socialist Germany, with Herr Hitler ordering the Kriegsmarine to not sink very specific Irish ships, and the Irish being one of the only two nations who sent their condolences to the German embassy after Hitler killed himself. The Irish hate the British so much, that they side with the worse savages f humankind in order to feed that hate.
Hunger strikes in Ireland go very far back. I don’t know who the first hunger strikers was but it has been a tradition under extreme situations going back many hundreds of years
The Irish fascist Blueshirts.... The only army in the whole history of warfare. That went off to fight for the fascist Gen. Franco in Spain and came back with more men, that when they left...😂😂😂😂
Irish neutrality would not have saved ireland , if there had been a german victory . Most germans just saw them as Western British . They spoke English , they looked English , or at least British and their culture , barring Disneyfied Irish customs , was still basically British . The Georgian architecture of Dublin , the decent Irish , who were in the vast majority , would have risen up and given the germans a big headache . Ireland had nothing in common with nazi germany , unlike the Baltic States , Croatia , Romania , Bugaria , etc. The fate of Ireland , would have had more in common with the occupied states of Czechoslovakia , Poland , Greece , etc .
@@psycho8927 The control and occupation of ireland would mean , the control of the Western Approaches . German airfields in the far west of Ireland would mean it would be far easier to attack cargo ships from the US bringing food , arms and ammunition . The agricultural potential of Ireland also would not have gone unnoticed . But as Operation Sealion failed to take place , the germans could or would not have one without the other .
@@psycho8927 And you believe the words of that lying demon ? As long as Great Britain and its empire existed , he would never feel secure . May be a few years after the victories in Europe and Central Asia , he would turn on Britain and attempt to destroy his old enemy . The British Isles include Ireland , so he may have attempted a job lot . This would surely have brought Canada , Australia , New Zealand , South Africa and possibly much of India against germany , but being no great military commander , he would not have considered the consequences . In the end he believed his own propaganda , always a fatal mistake . Ireland would have been turned into a feudal agricultural state of 2 or 3 million peasants working the land .
@psycho8927 that was his initial plan in the late 30s but not by the time all out world war broke out. Only the pressure from the Russians in the east and the eventual arrival of America into the war prevented this.
We're seeing it, when celtic played SS Lazio in the past the green brigade hung banners talking about how the Republican celtic fans stand against fascism which I think could be a reference to the conflict between de valeras IRA and the fascist Blue Shirts
In my (unfortunate) experience, many Irishmen I’ve met that are of the more nationalist sentiment tend to hold very casually antisemitic views (especially justified by the war in Gaza and following October 7th). I wonder if that is a holdover from this era of Irish politics.
Ireland has found itself on the wrong side of history post WW2. Its neutrality during the war, and therefore its independence, could only be guaranteed by the British military, most specifically the Royal Navy. This continued insistence on independence coupled with conveniently being situated to the West of Britain, and now NATO, has allowed Ireland to shirk its responsibility to the defence of Europe. Countries like Poland, the Baltic states, and now even Sweden, who all border Russia cannot afford to be so indifferent. At the same time Irish politicians, most especially within the EU, continue to make tits of themselves by calling out Israel over Gaza and have their say over Ukraine. Talk is cheap. Ireland continues to virtue signal from the sidelines like a disgruntled football fan shouting at his team's manager. Lots of opinions but no will or means to actually do anything but criticise those nations who do. The obsession with Israel is especially troubling given Ireland's history of anti semitism. From a pogrom, would you believe, in the early 20th century to tacit support for Nazi Germany to refusal to accept Jewish orphans post war to sheltering Nazis. The criticism of Israel is not necessarily anti semitic but the obsession with Israel, to the exclusion of a multitude of human rights abusers the world over, most certainly is anti semitic. Those same Irish representatives making fools of themselves in the EU do not seem so keen to talk about the proxy war in Yemen or events in the Congo. But then there has always been a whiff of anti semitism around Catholicism. ....it seems Ireland and Spain, another Catholic nation with a troublesome relationship with Judaism, are in a minority supporting a broader Palestinian state. In a hundred years of independence Ireland has still not become a mature responsible state. Irish nationalism and therefore Ireland is still defined by its relationship with Britain and Ireland continues to present itself as the eternal victim.
Nato can feck off D Day relied on Irish weather reports, allied soldiers were smuggled across the NI border while Axis soldiers were detained till the end of the war. When the rest of Europe was becoming increasingly anti semitic, Ireland enshrined the rights of the Jewish people into our constitution. De Valera has a forest named after him in Israel because he allowed those orphans to enter the country post war after fighting with the courts over it. Ireland supports Palestine because of a shared colonial sectarian oppression. The Congo and Yemen are not taking place with the full backing of the United States. Gabh suas ort féin
@@lunkycultist5519 He's a NATO/ZION shill, Ireland has no Enemies why should they join in the "defence" of the EU. US, UK and other NATO members plus Jizeral destablised the Middle East and caused the migrant crisis and our NATO ally blew up the Russian pipeline which made the cost of living skyrocket and dependant on gas shipped in from the US at a much higher cost for Europe. He's quip about the Irish eternal victim while kvetching about muh antisem in Ireland due the Irish being pro Palestinian is a classic projection, if he's not a troll then he's a hasbara shill.
The Catholic Church in Spain had sided with the right-wing fascists, so it is no wonder they ended up being killed. It is normal to have reprisals against suspected enemies. Franco was more ruthless.
I read it before in Tim Pat Coogans book, I cant remember the exact quote. Nonetheless its fairly common knowledge De Valera couldnt stand the thought of Britain winning
When you say Franco was trying to "save Spain from Communism" are you saying that that's how fascists saw it? Or are you presenting that as fact, as a fascist?
Yes because the left in Spain at the time totally weren’t free masons and communist radicals that committed massacres on the regular.and had no policies to actually help Spain
What's all this talk regarding Ireland? BRITAIN has been/is more fascist than Ireland. It was britain who together with the local reactionaries overthrew the Republic and established the 26 county 'free' state and the 6 county statelet based on settler terror. "If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, landlords and financiers." (James Connolly)
They were not fascists. They adopted some of the theatrical trappings of fascism which was not uncommon in Europe at this time but their beliefs were very much Irish Catholic nationalism. Lets not forget that American schoolchildren gave the Bellamy salute to the American flag right up to 1942. In case you don't know this is identical to the Roman salute.
