I would have thought it was a nit roll, and been frustrated, yes. Hero is never folding, and shouldn't need more than 10 seconds to figure that out and flick in the call. Tanking for over a minute is ridiculous.
Well, as the villan in this hand I wouldn’t make this play with AKo for example, everytime I did this one You’d find me on either a flush draw or aces full, so I understand not snap-calling just because it was a 3bet pot preflop
I wouldn't. If you don't know the guy well, it's quite possible that this is the biggest pot he's ever played, and that he's never faced a $2800 bet before.
considering there are 3 combos of AA one combo of A8 suited and one combo of 66 our fullhouse is just the 6th strongest hand.. i understand that hero thinks for a bit before calling
To me, I look at it like this. Slowroll = a situation where you KNOW you have the best hand but are letting the guy get his hopes up to maliciously crush his soul after he thinks he won. Never acceptable at ANY game. Nitroll = a situation where you have a very strong hand in a very large pot that you know you are never folding but need to take time to accept that fact before ultimately making the call due to your opponent making a play that can represent one of the only hands that beat you. A completely legitimate play as long as it’s only reserved for major hands
Never folding (which this hand is) = snap call. It doesn't have to be the Helmuth shove your chips like an excited child snap, but a snap call can all also be a crying snap. This hand is in-between those. Nothing to think about when you can never ever ever ever fold this in a cash game. So it's a snap call. If you don't agree, you're not good at poker
@@cial67idk if " never folding " is a thing. I know a few ultra nits who this is indeed a fold against, they are not bluffing and if they want to pile money in the pot, especially at the river, you better make sure youhave the Uber nuts. I have seen one of these guys fold the nut flush to a river block bet bluff on a paired board. Like 10% pot, that is how tight and nitty some of these people are. Btw, I think my hand was lower on the hand ranking scale than napkins in that hand.
@@jamespohl-md2eqhe's probably ok and he played the hand ok besides the flop call but it's more concerning he felt the need to call in after people criticized him. Should of been obvious in hindsight he took way too long even if it wasn't in the moment. (And I don't blame him that much in moment if these are high stakes for him may want to take a minute altho I'd think 15-20 sec would be enough!)
@@fkscopesFair. There have been times when I have had the effective nuts, but somebody made such a crazy bet that I had to think for second, like “have I misread my hole cards or what am I missing.” 1.5 minutes is way to long. Maybe if he had the six, not the 8 I’d be ok w it.
@@dalekerr5091ur the fish, “if you’re beat, you’re beat” is not proper thought process for making a call…beating value or opponents overbluffing are correct reasons for making a call…not fucking if I’m beat I’m beat, I’m going broke smh lmao
Fold (or maybe 4 bet) pre. Fold flop is where I’m up to. This caller is calling the guy behind him a passive fish…and then he calls the flop with middle pair 🙄
I think the biggest confusion here is hero thinking that him having an 8 is obvious for his range. 87s is on the lower end to open with utg in the first place and then just calling the preflop 3bet with 2 players behind is wild. No way villain thought he could have an 8 there, so hero taking a minute plus to make an easy call is adding a little insult to injury, even if it wasn’t intentional
I mean yea. That’s the thing is that the villain thinks the only non high hand he loses to is AK which the hero shouldn’t have because obviously he’s gonna raise on the flop. The hero just got really lucky playing this hand horribly and didn’t understand why his hand was so strong
So this is a bit of a weird hand. I totally agree with Bart that the pre-flop play is poor. I think Bart covers the reasons quite well, so no need to rehash them. The weird part for me is the flop. I never get here like this, but I cannot fold as Bart now suggests. It's because hitting 2nd pair is a very high end result for my hand. Now one could say, "that's another reason not to continue pre-flop". That is fine as long as we are thinking, "why did I call pre, I should have folded". So now we simply "fold too late". But my problem is that the 2 things do not go together. One other small thing, at the end Bart brings up A8s. He is speaking from villains perspective, but says only A8hh is available. A8dd is available from villains perspective. It's hero that has the 8 of diamonds.
Preflop is better than the flop call. 140 into 830 while it's unlikely you get backraised and with a major fish in the pot according to hero is not bad. Flop call with two players behind I can't get on board with that although I wouldn't say it's horrendous
@@mrhumble2937 I think you're missing my point. I would not have played this hand the way the caller did. When Bart suggests it's a 4 bet or fold, I don't love the 4-bet idea but I can get on board with folding. So I'm all about criticism of hero's play. Now then; what I am talking about is that there is a clear logic problem with calling pre & folding flop. The issue is that if you are going to fold on this flop texture, then you must fold pre - which is FINE. It is the 2 things that do not go together. If you're unsatisfied with this flop texture then it is a waste of $ to call pre. Also, as I said in my original post; thinking "I should have just folded pre" and then folding is FINE. What is not fine is thinking you can call pre and fold post AND BE CORRECT LOGICALLY.
Another point that was washed over.. if you’re utg in a game like this where the next two players to act are almost always calling… you’re setting yourself up to be squeezed a rather large percentage of the time. If you’re gonna pick hands like this to open with… you better be ready to fold or 4b. Awful spot to call as mentioned
So you are targeting the fish and the other players are obviously targeting you! If you are playing like you stated, then you obviously should not be playing more than a 1/3 game imo.
Stopped at 5:54 to say this before the hand plays out; this is a horrible situation with the calling station idiot to your left. Not just this hand but the whole game. I would be chomping at the bit for a seat change anywhere to his left. Otherwise you're going to have to hit your hand all night.
I would never think hero has an 8 in this spot. Calling with middle pair with two people behind is burning money. This situation that there’s a whale behind doesn’t support calling with middle pair in the slightest. In fact, I would have thought that the hero needed to have an even stronger holding because you expect the whale to also be calling behind.
Being newer to the game, your definition of slow roll seems like it should come with some kind of penalty. If you lie and say, I have king high the guy starts collecting the chips and then you flip over trips, that’s pretty messed up. Is somebody did that to me I would be like what the heck was that? That’s like a flagrant foul in the poker lol
This guy is why live poker us still alive and well. He makes money losing decisions gets bailed out by low percentage draws, leaves thinking he's cock of the walk. 👏🤡
This dude NIT rolled us twice as he took way too long to figure out his bonehead play after Bart explained it. This caller should’ve been cut off at the 16 min mark. Painful to listen to.
Love a jam on the turn for the hero. Two flush draws out there we can represent and want to get ahead of one of the flushes coming in nearly half the time to either scare off the villain or get there some of the time.
Nit roll is real at small stakes. I was nit rolled by a guy with the nuts. He debated calling and didnt raise the nuts on the river closing the action.😂 So many old guys see monsters under the bed.
This guy says he plays £2-5 and £5-10 at the beginning... Yet i cannot help thinking that this is just a TERRIBLE play by hero here and he gets the perfect cards to save his ass on the turn and river. I think every other card in the deck puts us in a AWFUL situation on turn and river if villain continues betting, wether he has it or not. Hero says he wants to play as many pots with the fish tohis left, but if I was in villains spot I'd be wanting to play many hands with this hero fish too. If you play £2/5 or £5/10 it seems there's plenty of average players willing to donate even in 2024... CRAZY. Great analysis from Bart as usual 👍
Whenever I'm accused of a nit roll where I don't have the nuts, I simply say that it was a tough decision because I don't expect a good player to show up here based on your line with a hand that weak. My apologies for misreading your skill level.
It is passive aggressive and I DO like it. Who threw out the first insult? I would add something about "let me count all your chips first". I am great fun at parties
I mean, any SB 3-bet is going to be AA, KK, or AK which is standard in this spot. Still, the raise size was too small so yes I agree with the OP that it is a "reg" and not a TAG/great player.
Of course, it's a snap Made 2 speculative calls. Pref flop and flop Hits the best turn card and second best river card possible. And your thinking about folding????
Preflop you need to call 140 to win what will be an $800 pot. Great pot odds. Otf neither player behind you is likely to raise so you might as well call. The nit roll on the river is just embarrassing and a waste of time.
Very helpful advice for the pre-flop play. I'm a longtime Limit player just recently getting into NL because limit games are pretty much gone. Within that old mindset, I would have called the 3-bet to bring the other two flat callers into the pot, and fold to a post-flop bet unless I hit trips or a combo draw, in which case I'm betting/raising the whole way. But now I can see that's an EV disaster when it goes 4 ways for 20bb in No Limit.
Same. My thinking is that I have an aggressive player that I have position on, and a call station to my left so IF I flop a great draw or the nuts, I'm going to get paid. I never would think to make my hand better by forcing out the other two. I still hesitate to make this play though as someone raising from the SB is going to have a VERY small 3-betting range, especially against potentially 3 other opponents (and in this case were right). Why risk 3-betting that range and getting 4-bet/shoved on when you can call and know you're getting odds to go to the flop? Bart saying to fold preflop is of course sound, but seeing as you're assuming (correctly) that you're getting 3-1 odds on a call makes it VERY tempting to just call and see a flop with suited connectors. Then just play the hand as you would A-x suited and if you don't flop a flush draw you're probably folding 95%
@@brianpotter2812 The sizing of that 3-bet was so weird too, as Bart mentioned. I would interpret it to be very polarized; either a low-risk bluff setup for a scary board, or it's one of those types of players who likes to "trap" with aces/kings against multiple opponents, hoping one of whom may go crazy with top pair. Then it turns out to be AQ, which is neither of those things.
Why is it an ev disaster? It was 140 into 830 with a major fish in the pot and you have position on the 3 bettor. I think the preflop call was fine. Flop call is more questionable
I liked the is video a lot I learned about multiway thinking. I feel like most calls are heads up but I would definitely love some more multiway action because I got a few good nuggets of info - like raising the flop that’s a neat play I’ve never thought of before.
Easy rule to follow in poker when your hand potentially beats any of villians value aswell as bluffs its basically always a mandatory call. If im the guy with AQ i definately think i have the best hand when hero tank calls
For the caller: looks like V was trying to get you off a chop. That concept kinda got tiptoed around, but if you're looking for his value-targeting range, consider a strong aggro sizing on river to get you to fold AQ and half the pot. That sizing would also put AK in a somewhat tough spot, but you didn't play it like you had AK, so V now targets AQ (and maaaaaaaaybe max value against AJ).
Yeah if hero had AK he would have 4 bet against that sizing. Villian is trying to get AQ off of a chop or a non- believing AJ suit to call. Except for Villuans pre flop sizing he played his hand quite well
This whole comment section piggybacking Bart and afraid to disagree with him at the risk of looking like a fish. Calling preflop is fine, you are looking to hit the flop pretty hard so I’d welcome the fish behind me to bloat the pot. Besides, villain is less likely to bluff into 3 other players so if he doesn’t hit the flop he probably freezes up and checks which could open the door for you to bluff or semi bluff if you pick up a draw. I’m calling preflop all day, 4 betting could be an option but at that point you’re just playing like a maniac. Bart isn’t the be all end all of poker, he’s stating his opinion on how he’d play it which doesn’t make him right
Yeah I think the preflop call is ok, especially with a small 3 bet size and a station behind you who will pay you off if you hit. Also, the SB 3 bettor is less likely to continue when he misses. The flop call is beyond terrible though. You're basically on a trips draw and you might even get blown off that if one of the two players behind you raises.
Preflop and flop not as bad as Bart makes them seem, probably slightly losing plays depending on quality of opponents. I would mostly shove the turn as hero, too many river cards kill the action as an Ace probably won't bet a flush river
Long time sub and viewer. Kinda feel like Bart was missing the point of the preflop call. It's exactly the spot you want with that kind of hand against this set up in this kind of game
Agreed I think the preflop call is fine, I think flop call is losing play with two behind who could have draws and end up raising. It depends just how bad the guy was but a super drooler I'd definitely call in this spot vs a small 3 bet
Classic case of "I'm better than everybody so I'm going to play with bad cards out of position and 'outplay everyone after the flop'." And by "outplay after the flop" they mean "make a miracle suckout." Got some news for you, caller. YOU'RE the fish that everyone else is targeting in this game.
Totally wrong. If you hand beats any value hand of opponents then you basicly snap. It's common sense. Nit roll worse then slow roll imo. Besides giving away the fact that nit rolls just suck at poker so there's that giveaway
You’re wrong. Villain is value betting because he’s confident he’s not up against AK, 88 or 66. OMG, he’s so strong! Yeah, because AQ will almost always be best here. Hero also can’t have 8xss on the flop for a pair and BDFD because the turn is 8s.
He said at 15:20 “I don’t think I was ever thinking about folding”. If you’re closing the action vs an all-in and you’re not going to fold then you snap call. Sure, unless you’ve got the nuts you could lose. But he clearly beats enough hands to make this a trivial call.
Don’t think it was that much of a nit roll. Villian can play aces exactly the same way. Remind you he was the preflop 3 better so he does have that in his range . He was basically trying to get you off a chop with that bet putting you on an ace too.
AQ isn’t chopping with Ax hands though. It beats everything except AK and boats. As for AA…yeah V can play AA that way, but that’s 3 combos and hero is getting 2:1. You just have to call here with 8x. If you’re hesitating because you might be losing to AA you’re not properly bankrolled for the game.
@@moedanglezIt’s very small. The standard is 3x. But out of position it’s common to go 4x. And then add in more for the money already in. 140 more invites everyone in. After the hero calls it’s 140 to win 690. And 140 to win 830. You don’t 3 bet out of position to go 4 way.
